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Author
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Topic: Fur's Savage build - 22-250
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Aaron Rhoades
Knows what it's all about
Member # 4234
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posted March 21, 2015 04:15 PM
Fur, the reason for loading bullets to the lands is for safety so you don't get case separation. It is not the ideal way to do it but if your chamber was cut too deep, it would help. Ideal is chamber .003-.004 short of standard 22-250 so you have a crush fit when you chamber a standard 22-250 so that the case cannot move except to blow out. Make sense?
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Dave Allen
Hi, I'm SUPER DAVE, IN CHARGE OF Q STUFF (and Goat Leader) "I'm really not trying to be a dick".
Member # 3102
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posted March 21, 2015 05:09 PM
Oh' yeah. Another thing make sure your loaded rounds fit in the magazine !!
I just remembered last time out, my rounds are just a "hair" long. I loaded 100 rounds several months ago and forgot to check.
I'll be in my reloading room/garage seating 'em a hair deeper.
Later..
Posts: 1986 | From: Jordan Valley Oregon | Registered: Aug 2008
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Fur_n_Dirt
So. Ariz. Zone Tech. Expert
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posted March 21, 2015 05:15 PM
Yup, makes sense.
[ March 21, 2015, 05:21 PM: Message edited by: Fur_n_Dirt ]
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Dave Allen
Hi, I'm SUPER DAVE, IN CHARGE OF Q STUFF (and Goat Leader) "I'm really not trying to be a dick".
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posted March 21, 2015 07:10 PM
Like I say check. We all make mistakes. It turns out only 40 were .010 long.
Remembering I'd loaded 60 and was out of 53gr bullets and couldn't find any more, so reset the die and loaded some 55gr SP's.
Eventually found some more 53gr Sierra's and forgot to reset the die.
Stuff happens, it's the shits to be on stand and be unable to load the mag.
What, I was really trying to say in all of this is, in regards to the bullet touching the lands and such, is it might not matter if one is unable to fit rounds in the magazine. If a guy can, cool !
I have a CZ in .204 there is no way to reach the lands and still have rounds fit in the mag. Yet the damn thing is a shooter !!
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Fur_n_Dirt
So. Ariz. Zone Tech. Expert
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posted March 21, 2015 07:44 PM
Well noted Dave..
If fire-forming on the range, no mag is required, but if I take my time and fire form during hunting sessions , that's a different scenario.
I checked my mag, seems to have mucho room even with the bullet sticking out an additional .1"!
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Dave Allen
Hi, I'm SUPER DAVE, IN CHARGE OF Q STUFF (and Goat Leader) "I'm really not trying to be a dick".
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posted March 21, 2015 08:14 PM
Kool.. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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Dave Allen
Hi, I'm SUPER DAVE, IN CHARGE OF Q STUFF (and Goat Leader) "I'm really not trying to be a dick".
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posted March 29, 2015 03:33 PM
Any updates Fur ?
I've been patiently waiting by the computer for a week now..
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Fur_n_Dirt
So. Ariz. Zone Tech. Expert
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posted April 02, 2015 11:52 AM
Hey Dave,
Thanks for asking..;-)
I fire formed a few lapua w/ H414 at max 22-250 specs (not ackley case volume)and loving it.. H414 will be the first powder to test first for accuracy. Still need to determine max load. But, I have an issue. Savage's are known not to be nearly as accurate if the rear tang is not free floating. Mine is firming contacting. Also, I needed to space the action via tape so the barrel would align with respect to the stock. So, I've decided this thing needs a bed job. Next on the list before seriously doing accuracy testing (month delay).
After, I'll be posting up load development and groups.
However, I've been practicing with my current coyote killer in 223 and recently found a major problem.
Maybe you guys can help.
I've been using Redding dies (not the s-type), the cheaper ones. After shooting about 15 reloads, I checked case run-out before reloading them again. The measurement was taken between the forward edge and shoulder (middle of neck). I was shocked, on average the run out was at least 5 mils. Out of 15, a few were really, really bad. One was 13 mil mil ;-(
I'll post the link to the loads later.
This measurement was taken right after fire forming (or shooting the round), so I quickly concluded that my chambering is fucked. However, the gun still shoots pretty damn good?!
So, my issue is this. During the reload process, I want to take these f'up cases and resize them. Using the standard process, I noticed after completely resizing, run-out would reduce by half or almost stay the same on some. Not good.
So, here's the interesting part. If I REMOVE the inner ball, and just size the OD. All the cases showed excellent run-out. Even the trashed ones were between 1 to 2 mils. However, including the ball to size ID, the OD run-out would get trashed again. This proves (I think) that my die is not setup properly or the neck is formed such that the inner ball does not line-up properly. But, don't know how to fix? Any suggestions?
A hornady die set is on order..
[ April 02, 2015, 12:00 PM: Message edited by: Fur_n_Dirt ]
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted April 02, 2015 01:09 PM
No, actually, it sounds like you need a bushing die if it's the ball that is pulling your necks out of shape. The only thing is, you might have to do a partial outside neck trim and then order the appropriate bushing based on your wall thickness. I'm not keen on Hornady dies, as a personal preference, but a lot of people like them. I'd consider canceling that order. They use an elliptical type of "ball" that I never found to be all that special, but seems logical?
Now, as to bedding, that's almost automatic where I come from, whether it's a target or used primarily for hunting. In my book, it's always worthwhile. Been so long since I messed with a Savage, not sure but it sounds like a similar deal as with Mausers which can be sprung if the rear action screw is tighter than just "snug".
In rereading, I might be confused about your issues? But, let's keep the issues pertaining to the new build. 223's aren't hardly worth worrying about. (personal opinion)
So, as far as H414 and max loads; I assume your max load will be your accuracy load so don't worry too much with testing for accuracy until you have a fireformed case and a nominal "max load. My definition of max load is my working load, and in that case, it will probably be about a grain, 1 1/2 grains under flattened primers? A lot of people say Huh? about flat primers but that's where I gauge my progress and then back off to allow for ambient temperature fluctuations. Possibly, firing pin cratering could be a factor, since it's not a Remington but I generally look for moderately flat primers before cratering.
With a 22-250Ackley, it's not necessary to shoot really hot loads, the case design already allows you to operate at higher pressures than most other shapes.
Good luck, LB
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Kelly Jackson
SECOND PLACE/GARTH BROOKS LOOK-A-LIKE CONTEST
Member # 977
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posted April 02, 2015 01:27 PM
You have that Savage on a B & C stock with an aluminum block correct? I got 4 of them setup on Savages that I swap stuff around like Legos.
Took a grinder to that fat forearm and worked em down to copy the look of a McMillian gamescout stock.
Have not needed to bed any of them.
Pay special attention to how you torque the action screws on the Savage. You might want to try that before you bed.
Then again alittle bedding never hurts if you are not swapping barreled actions around.
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Fur_n_Dirt
So. Ariz. Zone Tech. Expert
Member # 4467
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posted April 02, 2015 07:20 PM
Kelley,
What torque values do you used on your savages? Thx
LB, as always, thx for the info..
Tonight, I loaded up some rounds using the s-type Redding dies. Love the seater.
53 grn sierra w H414
43.0
43.5
43.9
44.25
44.7
Off to the range bright and early
[ April 02, 2015, 07:50 PM: Message edited by: Fur_n_Dirt ]
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted April 02, 2015 07:59 PM
If these are fireforming loads, there is no need for the different weights of propellant. 44.0 grains of H414 is perfect for the 53 Sierra in fireforming. In fact that's my exact load with 65 grain bullets.
Blowing out your cases is a tedious chore, but you won't accomplish much with the different charge weights, just shoot 'em, AND then with your modified cases, that's when you want to dial in what the rifle likes best; small changes in charge weight and seating depth. Are you using 210M?
In any case, those loads should be fairly accurate, the 53 flat base always worked well for me, in 220Swift. As a working load in your Improved configuration, I would try at least a 55 grain bullet. As I have said before, in the two I own, I use nothing but 62-64 and 65 grain bullets. But, I forget what your twist is?
I think you will be very satisfied with terminal performance.
Good hunting. El Bee
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
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knockemdown
Our staff photo editing Guru, par excellence
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posted April 03, 2015 03:41 AM
Fur, I agree with Leonard. Find a charge that shoots decent and blows your shoulder forward nicely & run with it...
As for your .223 dilemma, there's a potential 'issue' with you removing the expander...
Surely you've read of running bushing dies without an expander, that is common practice. However, that is not a good idea when using a standard sizer die.
Reason being, a standard sizer die is designed differently, and the neck portion of the die actually squeezes the brass' neck down "too small" on the down stroke of the press. On the upstroke, it is the expander ball's 'job' to open the neck ID back up when pulled back through. This process is what creates the necessary neck tension to hold a bullet...
Without an expander, a standard sizer die will squeeze the neck down too small, with no means to open it back up for easily seating a bullet.
With a bushing die, it is the bushing itself that dictates how much the neck is squeezed down, that's why there's no need for an expander... ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
When I was using standard Redding sizer dies, I upgraded the expander to the floating carbide ones. Try one, that might help your runout issue?
LINKY poo
Anyhoo, feel free to start a new thread about your .223 and surely we could help get ya squared away!!!
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted April 03, 2015 09:28 AM
Hmm? What they won't think of next? I never heard of that floating expander before? Might be just what is needed, IF it's the expander ball that is causing extreme run out? Of course, since this is a new handloader, maybe he is not doing the things in case prep that a lot of us do? For instance, I always run a nylon brush down the necks lubricated with a short spray of WD40. For me, it provides just enough "lube" to make the upstroke effortless, no "screech", in other words.
Good hunting. El Bee
edit: just thought of something else. He may not have that expander ball centered properly? Sometimes, they "ping" on the upstroke if not centered and tightened down while the decaping pin is centered in the primer hole?
[ April 03, 2015, 09:31 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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Fur_n_Dirt
So. Ariz. Zone Tech. Expert
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posted April 03, 2015 09:51 AM
LB, I probably didn't mention that the powder loads stated have formed cases; my intent is to find max load.
Got back from range. Awesome morning. here's the tally.
lapua brass
10 mils from lands
210M primers
H414
53 sierra match
43 grn- 3752 fps
43.5 grn- 3754 fps
43.9 grn - 3783 fps
44.3 grn - 3817 fps ( showed slight bolt markings on aft face of brass)
I think I'm getting close or there for max load. What do u guys think?
For a 22"inch barrel that doesn't seem too bad for velocity
koko - about the dies, I was in diagnostics mode, I wouldn't try and seat a bullet with OD sizing only; I'd probably crush the bullet due to extreme neck tension..
LB - Ok, you gave me an idea (ball setting) I need to try..
thx.
P.S. Oh, you'll love this..There was a guy at the range that spent over 5k on a special rifle that is worth almost 10k. First day on the range. I saw him take his first shot. The 128 grain bullet going WAY over 3000 fps turned completely sideways. At 25 yards!!
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Leonard
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posted April 03, 2015 10:14 AM
I'm just guessing, but I don't think your velocities are max'ed out? But, they "may" be max'ed with H414?
The last time I shot 55 grain bullets in my 22-250Ackley, I was getting about 4400fps. With a 28" barrel.
Good hunting. El Bee
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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knockemdown
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posted April 03, 2015 10:40 AM
F&D
.001" = one thousandth
.010" = ten thousandths
.100" = one hundred thousandths
"Mils" are an angular measurement, not a numerical value.
One thing to add about the floating bolt head of Savage/Stevens actions...
It was a genius design that effectively helps mask sloppy tolerances when chambers are cut non-concentric to the bore line.
Tight tolerances in machine work cost $$$, so the Savage bolt design allows them to build a rifle on the cheap that shoots, despite them having less than marvelous concentricity along the bore's axis...
That's how/why a Savage can still shoot with a "fucked" chamber...
[ April 03, 2015, 10:41 AM: Message edited by: knockemdown ]
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Leonard
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Member # 2
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posted April 03, 2015 11:36 AM
Took me a while to figure out what the hell Fred was talking about: "10 mils from lands"
Go easy on him, he's an engineer, after all.
Good hunting. El Bee ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
edit: quote:
That's how/why a Savage can still shoot with a "fucked" chamber...
plus, don't the barrels have cut rifling?
edit: now, do we all understand why newbie's help a message board? Nine pages! If it was just the old timers, they wouldn't have much to disagree with or talk about. THANKS FUR
[ April 03, 2015, 11:42 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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Fur_n_Dirt
So. Ariz. Zone Tech. Expert
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posted April 03, 2015 01:22 PM
Yup, we're talking numbers all day at work, mil is just second nature..
Knock'em called me out.. I actually had to go back to the internet for justification..
here it is..
definition of a mil
10 mil = .010" , 10/1000th (10 mils rolls off the tongue much easier) lol
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Leonard
HMFIC
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posted April 03, 2015 01:40 PM
Yes, but. This is mostly an optical unit of measure, the never ending MOA/MIL radius debate and personal preference.
The long range military types mostly prefer MIL's and first focal planes. For a lot of us that have been around since JC was a Corporal, first focal plane seemed kind of weird.
My Kahles 3X12X56 is at least 15 years old and I absolutely love it, especially for night hunting. But it's first focal plane and should be quite useful in walking up shots on gongs, etc.
However, that scope must ensure a positive kill on a coyote out to ethical distances which are a lot different from theoretical hits on an enemy soldier; where there are no constraints on kill or be killed.
For content, I propose a draw although fur is less accurate in this conversation although he has shown a measurement connection to be valid.
But, then again; who asked me?
Good hunting. El Bee
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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knockemdown
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posted April 03, 2015 03:43 PM
Well, slap my azz & call me "Sally"!
I'll be damned if I aint never, ever heard, or read, of anyone in the shooting world ever referring to thousandths measurements as "mils". Until this thread, that is...
Color me educated. But I won't be switching from the more commonly understood & accepted use of "thousandths" for conveying all things related to the measurement of c.o.a.l., neck diameter, freebore, etc. And especially so, seeing as how "mils" are already generally accepted in the shooting world as an angular measurement for optics.
But, my bad.
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Leonard
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posted April 03, 2015 04:00 PM
Apparently, my Solomon moment didn't go over too well?
I'm with you 100% Fred. But, he pulled some obscure data out of his ass, so?
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
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Dave Allen
Hi, I'm SUPER DAVE, IN CHARGE OF Q STUFF (and Goat Leader) "I'm really not trying to be a dick".
Member # 3102
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posted April 03, 2015 06:06 PM
Quote.
.001" = one thousandth
.010" = ten thousandths
.100" = one hundred thousandths
Thanks for the reminder Fred. I have a bad habit of typing out a zero in front of the decimal point.
Quote.
For instance, I always run a nylon brush down the necks lubricated with a short spray of WD40. For me, it provides just enough "lube" to make the upstroke effortless, no "screech", in other words.
That's a good tip Leonard. I also use a brush on the inside of the necks, never thought about using WD40. Thanks !!
Fur, I think Fred mentioned creating another thread for the 223, probably not a bad idea ?
[ April 03, 2015, 06:09 PM: Message edited by: Dave Allen ]
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted April 04, 2015 06:18 AM
Dave, I have a nylon brush and handle dedicated for necks, 22, 24 and 25. Take a 50 round tray and it requires probably two lite squirts to prepare the necks when using conventional dies with an expander button. I know some might be concerned about contamination but by the time I have processed them and run through the vibratory, it's not a factor.
But, it sure changes the resizing operation, very smooth on the upstroke. Not a revolutionary thing, by any means.
Good hunting. El Bee
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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Fur_n_Dirt
So. Ariz. Zone Tech. Expert
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posted April 04, 2015 07:54 AM
I currently use the nylon brushes as well for reloads; I am going to try the dry lube at the necks next ..
Right, I've already confused with throwing 223 in the mix. I'll start another thread; besides, I have found a very interesting result at the range I want to run by you guys.
[ April 04, 2015, 07:56 AM: Message edited by: Fur_n_Dirt ]
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