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Author
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Topic: Fur's Savage build - 22-250
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Prune Picker
AR Forum Assistant Moderator-handgun GURU and dispenser of sage advice
Member # 4107
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posted January 12, 2015 12:44 PM
Fur, if you have a good chamber & headspace is correct, use a 90% of max std. 22-250 load (reload) and you should get a perfectly fire formed piece of 22-250AI brass every time. Factory 22-250 loaded ammo will yield the same results, but avoid any "Reduced Recoil" or what ever it's called reduced power loads being offered by at least one major ammunition company('s).
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mike
Posts: 1265 | From: "Oklahomie" | Registered: Mar 2012
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Dave Allen
Hi, I'm SUPER DAVE, IN CHARGE OF Q STUFF (and Goat Leader) "I'm really not trying to be a dick".
Member # 3102
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posted January 12, 2015 12:56 PM
I mentioned just loading standard 22-250 and shooting.
I'm not trying to complicate things or confuse Fur, but, don't some of you guys load round's and stuff tissue paper in the neck instead of a bullet and fire into a trash can ?
Thus, getting all the fire forming out the way, without leaving the house ?
Posts: 1986 | From: Jordan Valley Oregon | Registered: Aug 2008
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Prune Picker
AR Forum Assistant Moderator-handgun GURU and dispenser of sage advice
Member # 4107
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posted January 12, 2015 01:23 PM
Dave, I fireform using virgin brass and bullets loading @ 90% of book max for the std caliber I'm attempting to improve. There are other options such as your mention of using brandX fast burning pistol powder with various filler/plugs IN THE CASE, NO PLUGGING THE BARREL! and firing in a safe area with the muzzle pointed up. I live out in the country and have my own shooting range so fireforming and breaking in a new barrel can be done in one session versus several trips to the range. My way works for me, some say "why wear out a barrel fireforming"?. That statement or question has valid merit, but I have found a proper fireform load (of the std. caliber being Improved) is usually as accurate and capable of taking any game the bullet/caliber combination being improved is.
capable of.
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mike
Posts: 1265 | From: "Oklahomie" | Registered: Mar 2012
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CrossJ
SECOND PLACE: PAUL RYAN Look-a-like contest
Member # 884
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posted January 12, 2015 01:26 PM
Some use reduced loads with cereal etc.....never even considered it. Like Randy said...I use an old 22-250 load I had, go shoot paper or set up targets. If I can get access to some prairie dogs even better. When done, gather all your newly fire formed brass.
maintain
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A friend will help you move. A good friend will help you move a body.
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CrossJ
SECOND PLACE: PAUL RYAN Look-a-like contest
Member # 884
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posted January 12, 2015 01:28 PM
PP was posting when I was.....but yeah, what he said.
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A friend will help you move. A good friend will help you move a body.
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Kelly Jackson
SECOND PLACE/GARTH BROOKS LOOK-A-LIKE CONTEST
Member # 977
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posted January 12, 2015 01:33 PM
I like to fire form using my stool and sticks shooting steel out to 500.
Not having to trim brass is reason enough for me to choose AI's.
Posts: 997 | From: Comanche OK | Registered: Oct 2006
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted January 12, 2015 01:48 PM
I'm not even sure the fire forming is the reason for the reluctance? But, I do it in my garage with a special chamber I have hanging from a rafter. I am one that doesn't care to spend a couple hundred rounds of premium barrel life on fire forming. But.
If you have a gunsmith that understands, he will chamber a junk barrel with your finish reamer and a loaner rifle. With this setup, you can go to the range and fire off a couple hundred full house fire forming loads, in his gun and his barrel with your chamber and you will yield all your fire formed brass without deducting those rounds from YOUR barrel life.
If there is anyone here on Huntmasters that can speak to the downside of chambering for an Ackley, let's hear it.
The benchrest crowd has different priorities and I'm not knocking them, in any way, I use a lot of their techniques, but let's face it, it's a different discipline and punching paper at 100 yards is a lot different from the luxury of a very narrow mid range trajectory for dispatching coyotes at unknown ranges, quickly, not worrying about wind or drop other than your rifleman's knowledge.
On short, there are VERY good reasons for the popularity of Ackley's, and especially the 22-250AI for coyotes. And, in all modesty, I have been promoting that chambering for more than twenty years on the 'net. Never had a complaint that I didn't know what I was talking about. Until this morning, that is.
Good hunting. El Bee
PS by the way, if nobody cared, they would say, yeah go ahead with the standard 22-250Remington. Nobody has said that, except a prairie dog shooter and a benchrester.
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31462 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Fur_n_Dirt
So. Ariz. Zone Tech. Expert
Member # 4467
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posted January 12, 2015 03:03 PM
This thread is very enlighting and many thanks for the feedback.. Still processing.
The room however has a ton of ackley guys and no knowledgable bench rest REM guys to rebuttal.. So, I don't know how far we'll get with this..
I don't count because I don't know shit about 22-250 (yet).
What I do see is that there's extra steps to make ackley work. Obviously it's worth it to a lot of you...
The extra steps seemed like a "hassle." Still does. Especially after the hand calcs showed that there's only about a 10% change in energy assuming same length barrel.. Drop height is not really a factor either unless your going way long .. Shit, I don't even see coyotes past 200 yards most of the time.
Bottomline , ackley out performs in velocity.. Acknowledged.. But I'm not convinced its the tipping point that's going to bring me more coyotes at the end of the day.. Seems taking time to practice more is time better spent.. Yeah, I said it.
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--- It's all simple if you know what you are doing ---
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Fur_n_Dirt
So. Ariz. Zone Tech. Expert
Member # 4467
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posted January 12, 2015 03:06 PM
Why is that 10% so special to you guys? Does it really make a difference in kill ratios? What am I missing here..
[ January 12, 2015, 03:08 PM: Message edited by: Fur_n_Dirt ]
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--- It's all simple if you know what you are doing ---
Posts: 437 | From: Tucson | Registered: Sep 2013
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted January 12, 2015 03:34 PM
I'm not buying your ten percent, Amigo.
In the first place, what you have, with the ackley chamber is a lot more capacity and the ability to withstand a lot more pressure. What that means to me is (although) it may be marginal with 50-55 grain bullets, where the cartridge really shines is 60-65 grain bullets and the vastly improved ballistics.
So, if you are locked in with 3800fps and expect 10% more, that kinda brings you to over 4100 and there is a hell of a lot of difference, velocity and ft/ lbs. Just 10% less and we are in 223 territory and just about anybody can see the difference between a 223 and a 22-250.
Now, what is a benchrester going to tell you. maybe too much velocity, a valid concern, for his application. Don't forget, these boys are VERY set in their ways. There is little argument in suitable chamberings for a competitive bench gun. 22PPC and 24PPC and whatever else 5% of the others are using.
Also, "Fur" is a very hard study, hate to say. You have (how many) guys telling you, you are overthinking the fireforming and yet, it seems to scare you? I guess it's the fear of the unknown?
Looking at it in retrospect, you will laugh at being intimidated by something so well known well documented and yet, been around for 50 years.
Just about the only valid argument you have brought up is resale, and even then, some guys are going to drool all over themselves looking to buy an Ackley. This is one time that the technical crowd has a point when they ask about documentation and "round count".
If you get a stock 22-250, at some point, you will regret it. Nobody that I know if, ever regrets their Ackley.
Good luck with your choice....I'm done preaching.
Just do the right thing!
El Bee
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31462 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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DAA
Utah/Promoted WESTERN REGIONAL Hunt Director
Member # 11
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posted January 12, 2015 03:36 PM
quote:
The room however has a ton of ackley guys and no knowledgable bench rest REM guys to rebuttal..
Well shit... Okay then. Actually, you may be right, as I'm not clear on what a "bench rest REM guy" is. Is that just a guy that knows a bit about BR and also likes 700's?
Kind of confusing, since very few active and competitive BR guys use Rem's. Not even very highly modified ones. A few do, but only a few.
But yeah, it's all about performance. Although energy isn't the performance category I think most consider or give a shit about, in this particular comparison. But the increase is similarly small in the category that most probably do look for.
Some do feel the AI version is less hassle, too...
- DAA
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"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter
Posts: 2676 | From: Salt Lake City, UT | Registered: Jan 2003
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TOM64
Knows what it's all about
Member # 561
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posted January 12, 2015 03:40 PM
"What am I missing here?"
Bolt thrust or being able to handle more than the 10% the book shows. Trimming or if you're like Dave and don't trim, less growth in the case so your brass isn't getting thinner. It's a sexy beast fire formed and you can still hunt with standard 22-250 rounds if you like.
I'll Ackley improve everything I can from here on out.
Posts: 2283 | From: okieland | Registered: Feb 2005
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted January 12, 2015 03:42 PM
He might mean 22-250Remington benchers guys? Of course, as I mentioned above, there aren't any, actually. Bench shooters prefer custom actions, left side ported, heavy bedding area, stiff as a teenagers dick. But a benchrester that shoots prairie dogs at 500 yards with a stock Remington could learn a few things from Dave Afflack.
Bottom line here is you have more than a hundred years of experience, in what you are trying to do, and the benchers guy doesn't. This is actually very valuable advice, Amigo.
Good hunting. El Bee
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31462 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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UTcaller
NEVADA NIGHT FIGHTER
Member # 8
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posted January 12, 2015 03:52 PM
Fireforming for a Ackley is a piece of cake. Buy good Lapua brass load close to standard 22-250 max. And shoot shit. Then work up a Ackley load and go shoot more shit. My fireforming load was about 1 grain over max of standard 22-250. Accuracy was great and I shot around 100 coyotes while fireforming. Then I just reloaded The New Ackley case and went and shot more coyotes only difference is I gained 200 or 300 fps in velocity.
Good Hunting Chad
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DanS
Scorched Earth (AZ Sector)
Member # 316
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posted January 12, 2015 04:00 PM
quote:
I'm averaging 3824 fps with a MOLY'd 55 gr NBT in my 22" 22-250ai with LaPua cases and RL15.
That is pretty close to what I get with the same bullet and powder , win brass, no moly, in my 24" barrel. That is the accuracy load and I don't have to step very hard on it. Brass last longer,I guess.
quote:
The room however has a ton of ackley guys and no knowledgable bench rest REM guys to rebuttal.. So, I don't know how far we'll get with this..
You wanna shoot benchrest or shoot coyotes? ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
quote:
Bottomline , ackley out performs in velocity.. Acknowledged.. But I'm not convinced its the tipping point that's going to bring me more coyotes at the end of the day.. Seems taking time to practice more is time better spent.. Yeah, I said it.
OK, Valid point. I am sure a factory rifle in 22-250 would probably do all you need it to do. Hell Vic uses a 17 Mach IV. It seems to work for The "Coyote God". hehehe! Compare energy and such to that round.
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futuaris nisi irrisus ridebis
Saepe Expertus, Semper Fidelis, Fratres Aeterni:
Often Tested, Always Faithful. Brothers Forever!
Posts: 1465 | From: flyover country | Registered: Feb 2004
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DAA
Utah/Promoted WESTERN REGIONAL Hunt Director
Member # 11
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posted January 12, 2015 04:06 PM
A .17 Mach IV is what I've been running lately too. Not my usual main squeeze - though it was, for a couple years, about ten year ago. But have been using it for coyote again lately, mainly just because.
- DAA
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"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter
Posts: 2676 | From: Salt Lake City, UT | Registered: Jan 2003
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UTcaller
NEVADA NIGHT FIGHTER
Member # 8
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posted January 12, 2015 04:06 PM
Deleted double post
[ January 12, 2015, 04:31 PM: Message edited by: UTcaller ]
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CrossJ
SECOND PLACE: PAUL RYAN Look-a-like contest
Member # 884
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posted January 12, 2015 04:19 PM
The 22=250 remington is one cartridge that truly begs to be improved. Even if you consider fireforming to be a chore, the lack of brass prep after the process through out the life of the case, makes it worth while.
As far as the comment about bench rest, I wonder if that was just one individuals opinion. The 6 dasher has become fairly popular with benchrest and fclass shooters, and it is basically an improved 6br.
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A friend will help you move. A good friend will help you move a body.
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Fur_n_Dirt
So. Ariz. Zone Tech. Expert
Member # 4467
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posted January 12, 2015 05:26 PM
Damn, peer pressure is a bitch (just joking)..
I called the vendor and told him I wanted Ackley!
HOWEVER, He didn't know if the barrel was done or not?
So, I'll be getting either a 22-250 REM or. 22-250 Ackley ..
Thanks guys.. Stay tuned ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
PS The bench rest dude was just "one" guy that also shoots prairie dogs . Case closed.
[ January 12, 2015, 05:28 PM: Message edited by: Fur_n_Dirt ]
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--- It's all simple if you know what you are doing ---
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted January 12, 2015 06:35 PM
Anybody for an end zone dance?
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31462 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Duckdog
Knows what it's all about
Member # 3842
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posted January 12, 2015 07:18 PM
And here's another way to think about it, in case you haven't already...
Since you're not loading your own yet, just shoot regular 22/250 loads through it, just like you would if it were chambered for the vanilla 22/250 Rem, and...there's your fire formed brass!
By that time, you'll have your head wrapped around loading for this new beast, and you'll already have all of this fire formed brass.
So, in other words,...just treat it like a regular old 22/250 until you start loading.
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jimanaz
2nd Place RICHARD FARNSWORTH LOOK-A-LIKE CONTEST
Member # 3689
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posted January 12, 2015 07:33 PM
I really don't see what all the hoopla was about. As soon as he said he was having his barrel chopped at 21", I lost interest. Different strokes for different folks, but throwing that much performance away with 5" of barrel hurts my head.
I hope you enjoy whatever you end up with. On the bright side, not investing a bunch of money in smithing services, a fancy barrel and action, and a top of the line stock won't make it too painful if decide you didn't get what you were hoping for.
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Fur_n_Dirt
So. Ariz. Zone Tech. Expert
Member # 4467
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posted January 12, 2015 08:05 PM
Jimanaz, your such a party pooper. I'll remember that..
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--- It's all simple if you know what you are doing ---
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted January 12, 2015 08:09 PM
Umm? A lot of wisdom in the above comment. But, it's his money, not ours.
All in all, I hope he's happy with it.
Actually, Fur, you could have asked the Peanut Gallery here before you had your mind wrapped around what you have ordered. Not exaggerating these guys are very knowledgeable.
Good hunting. El Bee
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31462 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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R.Shaw
Peanut Butter Man, da da da da DAH!
Member # 73
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posted January 12, 2015 08:12 PM
quote:
Does it really make a difference in kill ratios?
Shot the regular version for 26 years and the ackley version for 8....the answer is yes.
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