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Author
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Topic: Which load would you choose?
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Frank
CAN START A FIRE WITH A BUCK KNIFE AND A ROCK
Member # 6
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posted August 11, 2015 04:02 PM
Well, thought I'd get some expert, constructive opinions from a group of guys that ought to know what they're talking about....right?
Just got done trying out a series of loads in my new .22-250 Ackley. Started out with 35.5 gr of IMR-4064 and ended with 41.9 gr. These are four shot groups at 100yds, it was a little windy, variable right to left but not much.
I've included picks of the groups and have picked one to do a work-up around. Think I'll go up and down by a few tenths of a grain to see what happens. Anyone want to guess which load I've picked? Or maybe there's a load that YOU would pick? OHH yea, these are 1" squares.
[ August 11, 2015, 04:06 PM: Message edited by: Frank ]
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"Truth is no prostitute, that throws herself away upon those who do not desire her; she is rather so coy a beauty that he who sacrifices everything to her cannot even then be sure of her favor".
Posts: 644 | From: North Dakota | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
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posted August 11, 2015 06:28 PM
Well, it looks like 4064 is accurate enough? Curious why you don't list any data? Like bullet and bullet weight? Like barrel length and twist? And maker? What brass are you using and are these fireforming loads?
I'm going to guess the bullet is fairly light because I don't see how you could get that speed with 4064 which is too fast for the 22-250Improved.
Good hunting. El Bee
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
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Frank
CAN START A FIRE WITH A BUCK KNIFE AND A ROCK
Member # 6
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posted August 12, 2015 04:19 AM
God questions, Leonard.
Virgin Lapua Brass - 1st round after fireforming
Fed 210M Primer
Sierra 52Gr Match
Bullet seated to just touch rifling
Redding Bushing Die with .252 bushing
Half of neck sized
Kreiger 26" BBL - Heavy varmint contour
1/16 twist
This is only load development in that I wouldn't use the .52 grain match for hunting. I tried that once. This bullet doesn't kill very good....even at close range. It acts almost like a FMJ.
I'm liking load number 10. Three bullets are in one hole with one flyer that opened the group. I think this point is worth exploring though load 17 might also work. I think the horizontal dispersion was the wind at work since this group was shot later in the day when the wind started kicking up.
[ August 12, 2015, 04:25 AM: Message edited by: Frank ]
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"Truth is no prostitute, that throws herself away upon those who do not desire her; she is rather so coy a beauty that he who sacrifices everything to her cannot even then be sure of her favor".
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Mert Bargenquast
Knows what it's all about
Member # 772
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posted August 12, 2015 05:27 AM
I use Vithavouri N140 with Sierra's 55 Gr SBT's. I am still fireforming brass and according to my Gunsmiths need to boost my initial load when fireforming. The 55gr. SBT might not be quite as accurate as the 52BTHP but it is better on expanding. I shot the 52's for years and are more fur friendly but you will get coyotes that will run for a long ways before they go down. I am talking about cold weather shooting.
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Mert Bargenquast
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Leonard
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posted August 12, 2015 05:39 AM
Well, the 52 Sierra is a boattail bullet and problematic for live targets. Sometimes.
But, why a 16" twist? Can't do anything about it now, but you are stuck with lite bullets. Even then, one of my 22-250AI's is a 14 twist and I was driving 55 Bergers 4,400fps until I got off that girl and tried a heavier bullet. You can't do that, no soup, or long range performance for you; with that twist.
But, that's another thing. Before you settle, you owe it to yourself to try H414 and probably gain at least 200fps. Then, (maybe) you can try a 60 grain Bullet, if you drive it fast enough to stabilize.
But, there are several people here that have your chambering, I'm sure somebody will have something to contribute? It's a good cartridge, but you need to pay attention to a couple basic laws of physics and that 1/16" twist is one of them.
On the other hand, you could try a 45 grain bullet and slay the hell out of sage rats, but I assume your purpose is (what else?) coyotes.
Good hunting. El Bee
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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knockemdown
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posted August 12, 2015 06:13 AM
For killin' shit, I stick with the fastest load that still holds acceptable accuracy. Looks like that'd be #17...
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DAA
Utah/Promoted WESTERN REGIONAL Hunt Director
Member # 11
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posted August 12, 2015 06:21 AM
No conclusions can be drawn from this. Except that the accuracy is acceptable for most purposes and what velocity you are getting with that powder and bullet.
But a single four shot group, in varying wind conditions, where you have said you aren't sure whether a particular group is just the wind talking or not, you can't tell dick about how these loads compare for accuracy. Throw a blanket over them and pick one, in that regard.
If #17 isn't showing pressure, I'd start there and keep going up.
If any load in the .22-250AI does much of anything noticeable on paper, with a couple tenths change in powder charge, I'd switch powders, or drop the charge until it stops being finicky. I hate finicky loads. Will not have one, for a working load. If a rifle wants to act that way with several different powders and bullets, I'm probably just getting rid of the barrel. Or maybe the whole rifle.
- DAA
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"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter
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Leonard
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posted August 12, 2015 07:38 AM
Frank, you really don't need to shoot groups while you work up a load. By my calculations, that's 68 rounds and all you really found out is that minor changes in your powder charge weight causes inconsistent grouping. Maybe?
What you did could have been done in less than ten shots. What you are looking for is a maximum velocity with safe pressures. Then tinker with the trickling up and down a couple tenths. But, a good barrel should be consistent, accuracy wise. Unless wind is a real factor, in which case, stop testing; as you are wasting your time and money.
If I were you, since you like Sierra, I'd definitely switch to the 53 grain Match. It's a flat base and I always had much better luck with it in 220Swift. A Speer 52 HP is another to try, but I'm not impressed with that Sierra 52 HP. It goes without saying, just about any Berger is a better choice. Just saying.
As I recall, you were using a Swift, back in the day? you should understand that the Ackley configuration increases your capacity and allows higher pressures, which means the ability to step up in bullet weight...but I already addressed that problem.
Worth mentioning that some match type bullets in the 52/53 grain range might not hold together at the velocities you are capable of achieving. I had that problem years ago, with Bergers. Sometimes they blow up within 15 feet of the muzzle but mine were vaporizing over 100 yards downrange.
Therefore. A few people I know, (and you might know them, as well) have had very good luck with the 55 gr. Nosler Ballistic Tip which is a sturdier bullet....apparently? Maybe the jacket is thicker, but some people drive them very fast and they hold together and kill good. Might look into that one.
Good hunting. El Bee
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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UTcaller
NEVADA NIGHT FIGHTER
Member # 8
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posted August 12, 2015 01:24 PM
Yeah I don't get to worked up on load development. Found a great Coyote load for my .22-250 AI. 38.2 grains of RL15 and 60 grain Bergers.Consistent half inch five shot groups running 3850+ fps. Kills Coyotes very well out past my comfort range of shooting.
Good Hunting Chad
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Frank
CAN START A FIRE WITH A BUCK KNIFE AND A ROCK
Member # 6
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posted August 12, 2015 03:25 PM
Mert: Love the 55Gr SBT #1365. It’s my favorite bullet. Used it for years and has never failed me.
Leonard: But, why a 16" twist? Well, I’m trying to get a 50Gr ballistic tip as accurate as I can get it but with velocities above 4000. I’ve already tried some I had laying around (about 20 of them) during fire forming but was disappointed. The Sierra 52 Gr match shot better while the ballistic tip gave me about 2 inch groups. Could be they wants some more speed so we’ll see when I try them again.
Below is a pic of the rifle with my 24X Weaver. It was built by Gordy Linnell at Northern Rifle Accurizing (NRA) hence the NRA 22-250AI lable on the BBL. I use the Weaver only to develop loads and then I go with my old standby, the 3X9X56 mm Trijicon when hunting. I got it when I joined the club back in the 80’s. Love that scope. Already had the tritium elements replaced twice...with no charge from Trijicon BTW. Never have to adjust an objective so the targets are clear at any range and the illuminated crosshairs make it so I never fail to pick them out even on the darkest nights.
I’ve missed a few coyotes in my day when it was hard to find the crosshairs on a dark night with other scopes.
I’m targeting Prairie Dogs (got lots of em here in North Dakota) and the occasional coyote within, say, 400yds. Longer than that and I got a different rifle in mind.
DAA: Like your style. You say it straight up with no bull. That’s why I like The Donald so much. He’s says it straight up and don’t bullshit around. You two aren’t related are ya ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Seriously though, I think maybe something can be gleaned from the data. In the chart below you can see load number 10 has very good uniformity in velocity (except for the one flyer which clocked out at 3887. That was the flyer in what would have been a 1 hole group. Why? Dunno but it’s worth exploring. Same thing with load 17. There was pretty good velocity consistency so I would think this is also an area worth exploring.
Once I’m comfortable with the node points of the barrel, I’ll try different bullets at those speeds and see what happens. I usually have to vary the charge slightly to get good groups with different bullets. What I’ve gotten in the past by using this method of load development are target velocities (nodes) where things start to group with different bullets.
I like Leonards suggestion of using a Berger because I’ve heard good things about them. Like "all they make are match grade varmint bullets". I’ve never shot a Berger so know next to nothing about them other than allot of club members used to love them.
I was kinda hoping to be able to shoot the Sierra .55 Gr SBT at the higher velocities but not sure I can get them to stabilize…..even if I drive them past 4000. For example, after I clean the barrel I usually take a few fouling shots to get everything settled in again. I use factory ammo for that. I shot some Selleir & Bellot with the .55 Gr SBT but got keyholing at only 25 YDS. They were clocking out at 3650. If I upped the load I might be able to get them to shoot with the 1/16 but not too sure about that..... but I’m gonna give it a try since I gots lots of them still in the reloading drawer. If not, the rifle will still work for the kind of shooting I’m thinking of.
Anyways, lots of good insights/answers….just as I expected so let me say thanks.
[ August 12, 2015, 04:38 PM: Message edited by: Frank ]
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"Truth is no prostitute, that throws herself away upon those who do not desire her; she is rather so coy a beauty that he who sacrifices everything to her cannot even then be sure of her favor".
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DAA
Utah/Promoted WESTERN REGIONAL Hunt Director
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posted August 12, 2015 05:03 PM
I'm guessing you are probably way ahead of me on this, but...
I think we've all had 14 twist factory '250s that shot well with the 1365. I know I've had a few. Average, non-hot rod velocity, call it 3650 fps?
3650 in a 14T is 187.7K RPM. I think we're safe in saying that's sufficient spin to stabilize most if not all commercially available 55's.
4150 fps in a 16T is 186.7K RPM. So, safe enough to presume you could stabilize the 55's in your barrel at 4150? If you can get there?
3650 in a 12T is 219K and it would take 4800 fps to get 216K in a 16T, just to illustrate how hard it really is to make up for twist rate with velocity. Can be done within reason, but, it's a pretty narrow margin of reality.
In the not really relevant, but throwing it out there anyway category, I have a 12T that shoots the 55 Vmax very accurately at 3850 fps, which is 231K RPM - essentially not obtainable in your 16T. It would take 5100 fps.
Being stabilized and being accurate aren't the same thing, of course. But, can't have accurate without stable first.
I've not played with any of it for ten years now, and I'm sure there have been advances in the calculations etc., but I know that if you look hard enough, you can either find the actual RPM required to stabilize a given bullet, or, at least calculate it yourself.
Used to be some disagreement about the desired stability factor, with 1 being theoretical stabilization, but most agreeing that 1.1 was the safe minimum and many arguing in favor of 1.2 for reliable accuracy work. My experience, back then, when I was paying attention, I lean towards the 1.2 minimum.
That's all old stuff now though, I really don't know current thinking or calculation methods. It's out there though, if you want to dig it up.
I think just using the fact that 1365's have been shown to shoot well from many a 14T at 3650 is a pretty good yardstick though.
- DAA
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"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter
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Leonard
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posted August 12, 2015 05:53 PM
quote:
The Sierra 52 Gr match shot better while the ballistic tip gave me about 2 inch groups. Could be they wants some more speed
There is no amount of fairy dust that will turn 2" groups into anything acceptable, at higher velocity, in my world. In fact, it seems you have a little too much variation and since it appears you have a wood stocked rifle, maybe you should examine the bedding....just to be sure?
What the hell are you doing in North Dakota? Staying one step ahead of authorities? Do you hear much from that guy in Russia? <wink>
Good hunting. El Bee
PS and still have the YAK?
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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knockemdown
Our staff photo editing Guru, par excellence
Member # 3588
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posted August 13, 2015 03:27 AM
Berger's website contains a neat-o stability calculator. Naturally, the bullet library only contains Bergers, and the higher BC ones at that. But the calculator does allow you to input raw bullet data. Needed are BC, bullet weight & bullet length...
Could be of some assistance in selecting a bullet that your 1:16tw might really shine with???
LINK-o-RAMA
[ August 13, 2015, 03:31 AM: Message edited by: knockemdown ]
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knockemdown
Our staff photo editing Guru, par excellence
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posted August 13, 2015 03:38 AM
Using Nosler's data for 55gr N-Btip:
g1 BC: .267
bullet length: .810"
speed 4100 fps
From a 1:16tw, stability factor calculates to:
0.668
As Dave shared above, you're not even close to stabilizing a 55N-Btip...
PS, that old Trijicon is BADAZZ!!!
[ August 13, 2015, 03:39 AM: Message edited by: knockemdown ]
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Moe
Knows what it's all about
Member # 4494
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posted August 13, 2015 12:05 PM
My understanding is that the plastic tipped bullets are harder to stabilize because of the balance of the bullet. On the longer ones the plastic tip covers a gaping hole and the lead end of the bullet is too light. Shooting the 50 grain VMax, however, has given me superb accuracy out of my 22-250 and 223 AI. I'm not certain if the 55 grain bullets would perform as well.
I'm a firm believer in the in the old adage, Speed Kills. I shot the 52 grain Sierra BTHP for a lot of years out of my 22-250 at 3750 fps with no problems making clean kills. In my 222 and 223 at lower velocities it wasn't worth a damn.
I tried a box of the 52 grain Hornady AMax bullets and was very disappointed in the results. They did okay on paper but I had 3 runoffs in the field. One from my 22-250 and 2 from my 220 Swift.
I don't shoot prairie dogs or squirrels any more but if I did I'd go to the most accurate load. For coyotes and bobcats I would accept a little less accuracy for better killing power. Looks like you have both worlds in your last load.
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Leonard
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posted August 13, 2015 01:06 PM
I don't know about a harder to stabilize theory, but every plastic tipped bullet I have used were more accurate than spitzers and just as accurate as HP's. I mean, I have not actually kept data, just impressions. And, my admittedly limited impressions are restricted to VMax Hornady and Nosler.
Anyway, I'm kinda sold on plastic tipped bullets. You know, they say the meplat on a spitzer flattens exiting the barrel, not exactly aerodynamic shapes.
Good hunting. El Bee
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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Frank
CAN START A FIRE WITH A BUCK KNIFE AND A ROCK
Member # 6
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posted August 14, 2015 04:59 PM
Mert: Started out using the 52 Gr match way back in the 80’s. Was quickly disabused of that notion when coyotes were running after being hit. Ought to say most of them probly wound up dead but when you hunt at night it can be a real pain in the ass to find a coyote that has run. You quickly learn that you want “bang – flop” performance out of your bullet. Anyways, after that, just for shits, tried the Sierra 55 Gr SBT and have never looked back.
Leonard: Took your advice and bought some H-414 today. I like the fact it’s a ball powder. Have had much better results in the past using a ball powder. I see lots of 250 shooters are using it. Also got some 50 Gr Bergers. I’ll give them a try.
DAA: Your call on the spin rates was prescient. I was thinking along the same lines about having problems stabilizing the 55 Gr SBT with the 16 twist i.e. if you can get the speed up it may stabilize despite the marginal spin rate. I was thinking a 50 Gr at high speed but if I can get the 55 Gr SBT to shoot then all the better for killin coyotes.
What may be instructive is the old 40X barrel (before it burned up) was also a 16 twist. It was built in 1964 by Remington’s custom house. Not too sure but I heard Remington uses Hart barrels when rifles come from the custom house.
Initial load development work on that barrel was also done using the 52 Gr Sierra match. Like I said, after finding where the barrel liked to shoot, went with the 55 Gr SBT. There was no rhyme or reason about it back then. The bullet was available on the shelf so I tried it. That original barrel would stabilize the 55 Gr SBT at 3600.
When shot with factory ammo clocking 3650, the new barrel would not stabilize the bullet. Bottom line is the new barrel begins stabilizing the bullet somewhere between 3600 and 3814 as I saw today.
Here’s where I get that from…….Today, I fired two rounds each with the new barrel at increasing levels starting at 38.5 Gr’s of IMR-4064. The idea was to find out if the 55 Gr SBT will stabilize and where will there be signs of pressure. The starting load clocked out at around 3814 with no signs of pressure. I stopped at 40.5 Grs of IMR-4064 when pressure signs started to show.
As you can see in the two targets above, all three groups are sub one inch with the 55 Gr SBT. Granted, two shots per group does not a trend make…….. though if you take a look at the group going 4016 you can see the start (or end) of what I think might be a one holer node. If you look at group 10 above in my first posting, there was likely a node near 3920. That’s close enough to 4016 FPS, given the different bullet weights, to at least try and work up a load around this velocity using both bullets (52 Gr Match and 55 Gr SBT).
At any rate, I was glad to see all shots with the 55 Gr SBT were stable with no keyholing. In looking back at your post, this is in keeping with where you were predicting the bullet might stabilize. Frankly, I was thinking the same thing.
But then if you step back and look at the whole situation described above you quickly realize that all this don’t mean jack if you don’t have an accurate load….and this gets to the crux of my choosing a slow twist.
In the old days, lots of shooters would look to get just enough spin to stabilize a bullet…and no more. The idea was to compensate for less than stellar bullet manufacturing i.e. if your bullet doesn’t spin exactly on the center of gravity then you get “wobble” and the attendant inaccuracy.
So if you spin your bullet less the “wobble” becomes less significant. This situation has become less significant with increases in precision manufacturing technology….or so they say. I’m not totally convinced given the way some bullets are manufactured.
For example, on some stamping presses there are, say, 10 dies. Each stamping produces 10 bullets from ten different dies at one stamping. This means those 10 dies need to be exactly the same. It’s not like the old days when there was only one stamping die and where each bullet came out of that single die.
Unless the bullet manufacturer makes each die exactly the same (almost impossible) then you will get slight variances. I’m not convinced you can get match grade accuracy from bullets stamped out on 10 different dies from 10 different stamping processes along the way towards producing a bullet.
So that’s my thinking…spin the bullet just enough to make it stable. Your mileage may vary and that’s OK. All I can say is this approach to finding accuracy has worked for me in the past.
It's allot of nit picking, I know, but if I pick enough nits outta your hair then pretty soon your head won’t have any nits Right?
Bullet RPM = MV X 720/Twist Rate (in inches)
MV Twist RPM
3200 720 16 144000
3250 720 16 146250
3300 720 16 148500
3350 720 16 150750
3400 720 16 153000
3450 720 16 155250
3500 720 16 157500
3550 720 16 159750
3600 720 16 162000
3650 720 16 164250
3700 720 16 166500
3750 720 16 168750
3800 720 16 171000
3850 720 16 173250
3900 720 16 175500
3950 720 16 177750
4000 720 16 180000
4050 720 16 182250
4100 720 16 184500
4150 720 16 186750
4200 720 16 189000
[ August 14, 2015, 09:38 PM: Message edited by: Frank ]
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"Truth is no prostitute, that throws herself away upon those who do not desire her; she is rather so coy a beauty that he who sacrifices everything to her cannot even then be sure of her favor".
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Leonard
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posted August 15, 2015 05:31 AM
just to pick a little nit:
quote:
For example, on some stamping presses there are, say, 10 dies. Each stamping produces 10 bullets from ten different dies at one stamping. This means those 10 dies need to be exactly the same. It’s not like the old days when there was only one stamping die and where each bullet came out of that single die.
Are you sure about this?
Good hunting. El Bee
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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Frank
CAN START A FIRE WITH A BUCK KNIFE AND A ROCK
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posted August 15, 2015 08:47 AM
I've seen videos of bullet stamping presses. I'm going by memory as to the number of dies I saw in the video but it was definatley more then 6 or seven, I'm thiking it was about 10, dies at work. Granted, I don't know if all bullet manufacturers use this method but it would not surprise me.
Here's a video by the NRA I found. Couldn't find the one I saw originally but this'll give you the idea.
web page
[ August 15, 2015, 08:47 AM: Message edited by: Frank ]
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"Truth is no prostitute, that throws herself away upon those who do not desire her; she is rather so coy a beauty that he who sacrifices everything to her cannot even then be sure of her favor".
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Leonard
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posted August 15, 2015 10:40 AM
I have been in the Sierra plant, when it was out here, and am familiar with punch press operations.
In the case of bullet forming, it's all progressive on rotary machines, all incrementally, but not like the concept you describe. Not that it matters a hell of a lot, but bullets are not formed in separate dies, ten at a time.
And yes, "making" a die is very precise and (I imagine) greatly simplified by CNC machinery.
The guy that did a lot of my gunsmithing by trade was/is actually a tool and die man, and you might have heard of him, Doug Redding? He won the State hunt, one year, lives in Norco and raises horses: called "paints".
Good hunting. El Bee
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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Frank
CAN START A FIRE WITH A BUCK KNIFE AND A ROCK
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posted August 15, 2015 05:40 PM
I do remember Doug. I thought he was treated kinda raw when he had his spat with the other half. Did he ever recover from that or did he loose his rights for life? At the time, I figured what they did to him was symptomatic of the times i.e. the Gov too readily tries to remove you from your rights. I've thought about that often over the years.
[ August 16, 2015, 04:12 AM: Message edited by: Frank ]
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"Truth is no prostitute, that throws herself away upon those who do not desire her; she is rather so coy a beauty that he who sacrifices everything to her cannot even then be sure of her favor".
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Leonard
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posted August 16, 2015 04:56 AM
Yes, Frank. I kinda agree, I think he got shafted. I talked to him about a year ago and he said since he moved from Downey, over ten years ago, he has never even wired up his lathe. I guess his whole world is horses these days? A concession to Kelly, no doubt? Remember this, there is nothing fair about domestic laws.
Good hunting. El Bee
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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