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Author
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Topic: To howl or not to howl
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DAA
Utah/Promoted WESTERN REGIONAL Hunt Director
Member # 11
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posted September 19, 2010 05:13 PM
Thank you Scott. Both for the (undeserved) kind words, and for taking the time to answer my questions. I really do appreciate it. And I gleaned some nuggets from your effort, that I'm going to put into practice this year.
Leonard put it very well, as far as my typical approach to a new area. I'll give myself a little bit of credit, for being able to recognize likely coyote holding structure in the landscape and read sign on the ground. But after I take my best guess at where I think the coyotes are going to be, it's exactly like Leonard said, I just start calling it until I get into them and that frequently turns into a lot of wasted time.
I think I can implement some pre-dawn locating in some of those situations though. My distance between stops was already perfectly in line with what you talked about. And I think my sounds have been okay too, though I've generally had better luck with mouth blown "lone howls" than the electronic group howls. But based on your comments, I think I may have been spending way too much time waiting for responses. Cutting down on the wait times (by quite a bit), changes the efficiency of the whole operation a lot, to the point I can see myself giving up a couple hours of sleep in the morning to do it.
And, I'd absolutely love to get the chance to hunt with you some day. Leonard too. I'm not sure I'd hold up my end of the bargain, as far as anyone learning anything, from me, but I know I'd learn a lot from both of you. Maybe Leonard and I can talk you into coming out for a Nevada hunt one of these days.
Thanks again!
- DAA
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"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter
Posts: 2676 | From: Salt Lake City, UT | Registered: Jan 2003
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UTcaller
NEVADA NIGHT FIGHTER
Member # 8
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posted September 19, 2010 05:43 PM
SB,
I am not claiming to be an expert,but I might be able to answer your question about your recent coyote calling experience since I have hunted that Northern Nevada area quite a bit over the last 20 plus years.Some of those Owyhee desert Coyotes are just plain STUPID.....lol
I've killed alot of those stupid coyotes over the years up there... ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
Good Hunting Chad
Posts: 1612 | From: Utah | Registered: Jan 2003
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Wily E
unknown comic
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posted September 19, 2010 06:50 PM
Sage: "Since all of you seem know it all and are the A-team of callers, why did this coyote respond to a call within plain sight of two hunters shooting the shit milling around the tailgate of a pickup truck?"
Since you have stretched your imagination to the point that someone expressing an opinion on coyote behavior somehow believes they know all there is to know about coyote behavior, I doubt my explanation on your situaion will make sense to you but I'll give it a try.
The coyote in question was a ignorant pup that hadn't had any negative experiences with a dying rabbit sound coming from near a pickup. In the case of that coyote, the curiousity of the caller outweighed the concern with the pickup.
Was that supposed to be a difficult question?
~SH~
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Az-Hunter
Hi, I'm Vic WELCOME TO THE U.S. Free baloney sandwiches here
Member # 17
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posted September 19, 2010 07:08 PM
I'd enjoy being a shadow to Scott and Dave, and just tag along and watch. Ive really never utilized coyote vocalizations in my particular technique, unless it's using ki-yi's and pup distress, to bring back one or two from a multiple call-in after killing one. Im truely ignorant of howling; half ashamed to admit it, because Ive been doing this so long and never really understood the how's and whys'.
I think my technique mirrors Daves' somewhat, in the fact that Im either very lucky, or just have so damned much time invested plugging around the desert, that Ive come to understand where and what kind of country holds(or should hold) coyotes.
Using howling and vocalizations is obviously my glaring weak point, and something I should probably get some knowledge of. I just don't think I can gain it by blind pigging my way around the desert blowing on a howler?
If we could get Scott to become a video prostitute, he could turn a buck or two peddling howling videos:)
Posts: 1627 | From: 5 miles west of Tim | Registered: Jan 2003
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coyotehunter
Knows what it's all about
Member # 3282
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posted September 19, 2010 07:16 PM
Thanks Scott we are on the same page........We have to get in the truck together some time. Its September and I am about wore out on sheep right now and a little jadded at this point in the season. On the home stretch and want to get some snow flakes on my windshield. Been a tough year with no rabbits and record high sheep prices right now. I know it sounds like I think I am the only one with problems but I know better. I talked with 3 ranchers today about coyotes and sheep during 2nd docking and that is a pretty normal amount of calls per day. Someone seen one, heard one, or smelt one.
quote:
Since all of you seem know it all and are the A-team of callers
Know one is claiming anything of the sort, I feel like I am at the coffee shop talking with friends about what I am seeing in the field. If you do not like what your hearing move on. If you listen close you may learn something. If you can not find any useful information in all this what the heck are you wasting your time on here for if it is just to through lawn darts at the guys willing to take the time to give a opinion.
Posts: 55 | From: west | Registered: Oct 2008
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Wily E
unknown comic
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posted September 19, 2010 07:38 PM
Az: "If we could get Scott to become a video prostitute, he could turn a buck or two peddling howling videos"
Haha! I don't think so. Maybe a book someday on "Coyotes that have kicked my ass".
It would be fun to plan a hunt in Nevada for the 4 of us. That's a place I've always wanted to spend some time. I have a lot of good inside information on the coyote numbers there too.
Lets start tossing it around.
~SH~
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted September 19, 2010 09:26 PM
Yeah, that would be a good time, I'm thinking? Let's ponder it.
quote:
Since all of you seem know it all and are the A-team of callers, why did this coyote respond to a call within plain sight of two hunters shooting the shit milling around the tailgate of a pickup truck?
I will give you my favorite story about never figuring out coyotes.
We were in almost roadless country, driving washes in some nameless place. At one point, we decided to get out and spread a good map across the hood and figure out how to get where we wanted to be, without actually knowing where we were.
Well, this was within a 100 yards of a dirt tank that is common in those parts and one of us, I actually think it was me, spotted three coyotes standing in a bare spot on the top of the berm. Well, two of us did a countdown and dropped two of them, ya know, take the right one and I'll take the left. This was very successful except there were three but we figured he high tailed it into the next county, which was quite a ways away.
So, we drove right up to the base of the berm, nobody very alert, of course, and that third dog came out of the bushes and without a care in the world, just lazily trotted right in front of the truck and out in the flats. Well, my daredevil son was driving and took off after the coyote, bouncing us and the gear al over the place. Coyote found another gear and got away.
What happened? Well, we were engaged in an activity that those coyotes saw as nonthreatening and being curious as humans, decided to observe what we were doing.
I think it could have been the same way in the other situation, puttering around and already past the coyote, which is something they surely understand, as opposed to crossing in front of a moving vehicle. Seems to me the threat was subdued if not extinguished altogether? Perfectly understandable behavior.
I have more examples, but, you get the picture.
Good hunting.
[ September 19, 2010, 09:29 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31462 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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JohnLK
Pro-Staff Great/Michigan Sector
Member # 1978
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posted September 20, 2010 06:48 AM
One time I was in a tree stand when bow hunting I heard a coyote howl to the west of me. Then after a few seconds to the south a coyote in a pine plantation next to a subdivision howled back. When that coyote let a single howl back it was real mellow and easy sounding. It seemed like since it was next to some houses the coyote did not want to howl to loud but loud enough so the other coyote could hear it to say “I’m over here”. The coyotes single howled back to each other a few more times and each time they did they were working their way closer to each other. When they got together they did some yipping and went quite. Since that time I try to make my howls with my open reed howler to sound real mellow and easy like what I heard from the coyote in the pine plantation. Just a single mellow howl every 10 min or so and I have had good luck with it all thru my normal hunting season Oct – March.
Posts: 54 | From: Michigan | Registered: Oct 2007
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ursus21
2nd place, John Denver lookalike Contest
Member # 3556
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posted September 20, 2010 09:17 AM
Great thread guys! One of the best I have read in years.
Posts: 780 | From: Montana | Registered: Jan 2010
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nd coyote killer
HUNTMASTER PRO STAFF
Member # 40
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posted September 20, 2010 01:48 PM
DAA- Depends on if you are locating for a large area and just wondering where everyone is or looking for a particular coyote or group of coyotes. I'm on the same page as far as distance traveled between tring it. I do however think that if there is light not enough guys are looking through their binocs while listening especially in high pressure areas. I spot a lot of my coyotes that i'm tring to locate. If they don't howl more times then not they will come up and take a look. I don't own nor have i recorded any secret locating sound.LOL I do have a old tape that the old timers say is the best one out there but can't find a tape player for it! LOLOLOL.
On the comment about knowing it all or being the "A-Team" I had to get a chuckle. I'm one of the fortunate guys that gets to do a job that he loves and has a passion for. I simply am allowed more time in the field than most guys. Now even if i didn't know much or didn't study coyotes like i do the shear number of hours in the field i believe give me some credability. I never heard anyone claim to "know it all" it's simply a discussion that happens to have a combined hours in the field of extroadianary numbers. between Wily, Randy, Coyotehunter, Leonard, DAA, 3toes and the rest that i can't name there is a lot of different views from differnt parts of the country and different jobs at hand (sheep, cattle, recreational calling ect ect.) My opinion is my professional opinion on what i THINK i know on coyotes and what i see in the field 365 days a year. Take the chip off of your shoulder and think a little. I agree with scott on your expierence you might very well be the first humans or pickup that pup had seen you pose no threat yet. I figured you could figure that one out yourself.
There is many differnt facets to ADC work from Sheep to Cattle to intermixed to urban coyotes tough to compare and tough to see the other guys problems unless you work his country and get his phone calls. I have less sheep than the counties around me but have WAY more calve problems than those counties for obvious reasons. Losing a $600 calve a night or one or two $100 lambs a night it still is coyotes that need to be removed slice it however you want.
This is the kind of discussions that a guy can learn from or at least start thinking about things in a different way from.
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"Sure are cocky for a starving pilgrim" - Bear Claw
Posts: 385 | From: On a hill | Registered: Jan 2003
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Wily E
unknown comic
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posted September 26, 2010 07:38 AM
nd: "I do however think that if there is light not enough guys are looking through their binocs while listening especially in high pressure areas. I spot a lot of my coyotes that i'm tring to locate. If they don't howl more times then not they will come up and take a look."
That's exactly right and I have found that the percentage of coyotes that will take a look as opposed to vocally responding increases as the distance between caller and coyotes decreases. The further out they are, the more likely they are to vocally respond.
~SH~
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TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Field Marshall, Southern Minneesota Sector
Member # 794
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posted September 26, 2010 10:00 AM
Darn it Scott, if you give away anymore secretes I'm going to have to ask for my money back..
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What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
Posts: 5064 | From: S.D. | Registered: Jan 2006
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DAA
Utah/Promoted WESTERN REGIONAL Hunt Director
Member # 11
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posted September 26, 2010 11:13 AM
FWIW... I have seen instances in rolling grassland type cover, where a rifle shot will get them to stand up, stretch-yawn and look around too. They may do the same in sage and cedar, but are too hard to spot in that stuff so I don't know.
- DAA
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"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter
Posts: 2676 | From: Salt Lake City, UT | Registered: Jan 2003
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knockemdown
Our staff photo editing Guru, par excellence
Member # 3588
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posted September 26, 2010 11:38 AM
Funny you mentioned that, Dave.
Couple weeks back, my bud was up at the farm and he had a bead on a woodchuck. He miffed the shot, and as he surveyed the meadow for other 'heads' popping up, a coyote had sat up out of the goldenrod and was just sitting there staring in his direction! After a couple seconds to reconnoiter, the coyote then stood up, 'stretched' and mosy-ed on down into the brushy bottom a few yards away...
Our season opens Oct 1st, so that coyote had a free pass. I thoroughly plan on rescinding that allowance & making that coyote's acquaintence sometime next Saturday. Or one of his packmates, at least!
Still enjoying the main topic & apologize for the sidetrack...
Posts: 2202 | From: behind fascist lines | Registered: Mar 2010
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Greenside
seems to know what he is talking about
Member # 10
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posted September 27, 2010 08:29 AM
quote:
Leonard, I agree with your statement about locating at night. If you get a response, it only proves they are there at that time. Around here, they travel long distances in their hunting cycle, and may not be anywhere near where they were the night before.
Al and LB, thanks for the tip! In the future, instead of asking the farmer or rancher where he's hearing coyote at night to ask him where he's not hearing them.
quote:
nd: "I do however think that if there is light not enough guys are looking through their binocs while listening especially in high pressure areas. I spot a lot of my coyotes that i'm tring to locate. If they don't howl more times then not they will come up and take a look."
Well nothing to prevent them from doing that at night is there. Spending to much time waiting for a howl back can get you a educated coyote.
Dennis
[ September 27, 2010, 08:45 AM: Message edited by: Greenside ]
Posts: 719 | From: IA | Registered: Jan 2003
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nd coyote killer
HUNTMASTER PRO STAFF
Member # 40
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posted September 27, 2010 03:38 PM
quote:
Greenside: Well nothing to prevent them from doing that at night is there. Spending to much time waiting for a howl back can get you a educated coyote.
With out a negative incident coming with the locating you shouldn't be doing much harm. Coyotes howl at trains and noon whistles all over the country. Unless he comes running right in to the pickup in the dark there shouldn't be much of a negative to locating. Seeing a pair of headlights driving down the road after a group of coyotes howled shouldn't be alarming to a coyote sitting at a 1/2 mile.
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"Sure are cocky for a starving pilgrim" - Bear Claw
Posts: 385 | From: On a hill | Registered: Jan 2003
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Wily E
unknown comic
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posted October 02, 2010 04:28 AM
Greenside: "....instead of asking the farmer or rancher where he's hearing coyote at night to ask him where he's not hearing them."
Here's the deal greenside. Sure, how far a coyote or coyotes move in an evening is going to vary from area to area but having spent a lot of years calling coyotes year round in many different states, I can assure you that IN MANY CASES (not all), there is going to be certain areas that have more attraction to coyotes as a daytime resting site than others. If you get coyotes to respond to a howl as the yard lights are coming on, that is obviously close to where they spent their time during the day. If you question the value of that information, then you will also have to question why those who locate coyotes consistantly kill more coyotes than those who don't. Debating the value of coyotes is like debating the value of gun stabilization. There's no reasonable argument against it.
TA: "Darn it Scott, if you give away anymore secretes I'm going to have to ask for my money back.."
I know you are being half serious but I do want to address the comment since you mention it. The difference between telling someone about coyote calling techniques and showing them is where the value in personal instruction comes in. Some students have the ability to apply what they have been taught and others continue to search for a "silver bullet" that doesn't exist. What I showed a particular student in Canada made the difference between his killing 3 coyotes in a day to his killing 10 - 12 in a day.
Congratulations on your winning the Mr. Coyote contest at the VHA. Great shooting.
~SH~
[ October 02, 2010, 04:38 AM: Message edited by: Wily E ]
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TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Field Marshall, Southern Minneesota Sector
Member # 794
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posted October 02, 2010 01:05 PM
Like I mentioned before if you are worried about the coyotes moveing away from a area you located at nite then just do youre locateing a few hours before lite..
Two winters ago Randy and I went through part of my area early in the A.M. and located coyotes till we thought I had enough for a calling contest. ( over 30 coyotes located )
I kept track of the areas we located in and how many responded and who's pasture they where in.
I went back into my calling area a few days later and a few weeks also and then back again a month later, the coyotes where still there. Like was mentioned if you find them just as it gets dark or early mourning they will most likely be there for some time..
On one locateing stand we where on a two track going into a pasture and stopped to locate. We had a coyote answer right away and it was'nt very far from the truck when it howled and we could tell it was moveing in our direction so we just jumped in the truck and drove off..
The very next mourning I called this coyote in for ARShaw.
I've also had the same happen here at home when locateing, I would stop along a CRP field at nite to locate and a coyote would answer back knowing that I was there. I would comeback a week or two later and coyote would still answer and was close to the same location each time..
P.S. Thanks Scott.
By the way I can't get ahold of Colton on the phone. I need to get things lined up for the contest in early Dec.
[ October 02, 2010, 01:08 PM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
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What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
Posts: 5064 | From: S.D. | Registered: Jan 2006
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Rich
2,000th post PAKMAN
Member # 112
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posted October 02, 2010 03:38 PM
"Like was mentioned if you find them just as it gets dark or early mourning they will most likely be there for some time"
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I believe Scott meant that if you locate them right after dark, there is a good chance that they haven't left their favorite daytime hidey hole yet.
My own thoughts tell me that he is correct. Now if you locate them just before dawn, you better be sneaking over there pretty quick because they will soon be traveling to their daytime hidey hole.
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If you call the coyotes in close, you won't NEED a high dollar range finder.
Posts: 2854 | From: Iowa | Registered: Feb 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted October 02, 2010 05:22 PM
Try to grasp the concept, Tim. I hunt all night and I hunt all day, or mostly, all morning, at least.
I happen to know, for a fact that my coyotes hunt the open prairies during the hours of darkness and amble towards their bedrooms, located in the canyons and washes uphill from the valley floor sometime in the morning.
Let's review. Night time, the are all over the alfalfa and CRP. It does no good to "locate" these animals two hours before daylight because they (most likely) won't be there by the time it's light enough to make day stands. They will be up the washes and why would I locate them there? I already know where they snooze during the daytime.
If I should need to locate during daylight, I'm actively hunting them, at the same time because MANY MANY times, (75%) they refuse to answer a howl with a howl. Instead, they approach the sound and I will be waiting for them.
If, on the other hand, I get a vocal response from over in the next drainage, I will know what to do. Grab my buckethead and skoot.
This ain't rocket science.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31462 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Field Marshall, Southern Minneesota Sector
Member # 794
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posted October 02, 2010 07:01 PM
quote:
I happen to know, for a fact that my coyotes hunt the open prairies during the hours of darkness and amble towards their bedrooms, located in the canyons and washes uphill from the valley floor sometime in the morning.
quote:
Here's the deal greenside. Sure, how far a coyote or coyotes move in an evening is going to vary from area to area but having spent a lot of years calling coyotes year round in many different states, I can assure you that IN MANY CASES (not all), there is going to be certain areas that have more attraction to coyotes as a daytime resting site than others. If you get coyotes to respond to a howl as the yard lights are coming on, that is obviously close to where they spent their time during the day.
The same is true for coyotes located a few hours before lite. They are on there way to where they are going to bed for the day or maybe already there. Either way they will be close to the area you located them in. Depending on what type of caller you use you may only need to make one or two stands to be on them..
Like you Leonard I know my area pretty good and have a good idea of where the coyotes are bedded for the day. By actually locateing though you have a better idea of the numbers there and the ones that you did'nt know where there and you may also find that not all of youre coyotes bed in the cool deep drainages, some maybe up on top of some hill or ridge line or a shallow drainage and so on..
Say you go into a area to locate and you get a good size famaly group to answer youre locate howls. Now you know where they are and you can plan for how you are going to get them. You could go into this area cold and have most of them right on top and end up with maybe one or two. Or you could locate, know where they are and call the fridges and have one or two come in and then move around and call in a few more.
It makes them a little easier to handle when you have just a few come in..
[ October 02, 2010, 07:05 PM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
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What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
Posts: 5064 | From: S.D. | Registered: Jan 2006
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Possumal
HONORARY CALLS FORUM MODERATOR edit: AND TOKEN LIBERAL
Member # 823
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posted October 03, 2010 04:27 AM
I have read most posts in this thread from time to time, and something I have always believed stands out----things vary from location to location. I don't do a lot of locating at night for a couple of valid reasons. First, we aren't allowed to hunt at night in Kentucky. Second, I know the coyotes are there where I hunt. I have asked the right questions to the local farmers finding out where they see and hear the coyotes. Same goes for the rural mail carriers and others who regularly travel the county roads.
That being said, I start out most stands with non threatening "Where are you" howls, lots of times on my Cronk Killer Call or my Sceery open reed call. Certain times of year, they tend to howl back (If the wind and location is right for me to hear them), but I am convinced that far more coyotes come in on the sneak. Like Gerry Blair has said many times, "They all hear, they all react, but they don't all respond". I believe that coyote howls, done with discretion, will help you more than hurt you.
I keep still pretty well for an old possum, and hunt with my eyes and what is left of my hearing, constantly alert and looking for movement. I think that is mostly how coyotes hunt. Looking through binocs will help your vision in a concentrated area, but cut down your field of view, especially in your peripheral vision. Many times, I have seen a squirrel flip its tail in a brushy bottom four or five hundred yards away that I would not have seen if I were locked into binocs. Same goes for a responding coyote.
Finally, the country I hunt in Kentucky is vastly different from what I have seen in other parts of Kentucky and other states. I seldom have a farm that is comprised of a thousand acres or more with few fences. More likely, I have permission to hunt from 5 to 10 adjoining farms, all cut up with pasture fences, making it imperative that you figure out ways to be quiet and sneaky in your approach to your honey holes. When you talk to any farmers who live in that 3 to 5 square mile area, every one of them hears coyotes on a regular basis, leading them to believe that the whole area is infested with the critters. Ain't true; they are hearing the same family group or pair at various points while hunting their territory. Farmer Jones has been seeing a big pair nearly every morning in his hay field next to the start of his wooded land. I think that is normal behavior as he is seeing those coyotes in the tail end of their hunting cycle, headed for their bed down area. By the same thinking, Farmer Smith is seeing a couple of coyotes nearly every afternoon just before dark down by the creek that leads over to Farmer Joe's place which is coyote hunting heaven.
Putting together that kind of information and fitting it into my hunting plans helps close the deal on a lot of customers. Knowing the coyotes' habits in your hunting area is far more important to you than knowing what successful hunters do in other states.
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Al Prather
Foxpro Field Staff
Posts: 781 | From: Nicholasville, Ky. | Registered: Mar 2006
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