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Topic: To howl or not to howl
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coyotehunter
Knows what it's all about
Member # 3282
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posted September 15, 2010 07:34 PM
No offense taken............how would I take offense to you claiming to be better at locating coyotes then any one else in the Eastern District. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Posts: 55 | From: west | Registered: Oct 2008
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3 Toes
El Guapo
Member # 1327
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posted September 16, 2010 06:13 AM
No problem coyotehunter. Just be sure and post the answer after you ask the question. I'm reaonably confident of the situation or I would have never posted a statement like that. But again, I wasn't trying to say that no one else is capable. But I think I have more sounds and better sounds than most, and that was the point I was making with Wily. Not that no one else could locate a coyote. Everybody has thier strong suit. Some guys are better trappers, some guys have better M44 lure and pick locations for those better. I consider myself a very mediocre trapper and probably everybody in the district is better with traps than I am. I do OK with snares and calling. But I truly believe that I can locate coyotes with my sounds and equipment better than the rest.
I'm like the german on Hogans heroes...
vee haf vays of makink you talk!
[ September 16, 2010, 06:23 AM: Message edited by: 3 Toes ]
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Violence may not be the best option....
But it is still an option.
Posts: 1034 | From: out yonder | Registered: Apr 2007
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Joel Hughes
SPECIAL GUEST
Member # 384
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posted September 16, 2010 07:58 AM
Checking in after a few days away. Just read this and felt the need to support my fellow non-satisfied-foxpro-remote-reception-guys. ![[Smile]](smile.gif) Two of the best things for me in the world of predator hunting have been getting purposely banned from PM to never return, and getting off the FP bandwagon and not allowing ecaller posts get me worked up (and ignoring any new and improved ecall versions/no longer worrying about having latest and greatest). I've been waiving a FP remote over my head since around 2001, and I guess I'm finally just use to it and okay with it. From the 416, to the 532, to the fx3, to the fx5. Probably the biggest dissappointment through it all was listening to the possumal's of the world telling us "it shouldn't happen". Well, no sh**!!! LOL But hey!...at least all of my customer service experiences have been wonderful.
Posts: 145 | From: texas | Registered: Aug 2004
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booger
TOO BIG TO FAIL
Member # 3602
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posted September 16, 2010 08:28 PM
Jeeezus--I darn near wet my pants after watching those two videos!!!
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If we ever forget we are one Nation Under God, then we will be a nation gone under--Ronald Reagan
Posts: 911 | From: Bob Dole Country | Registered: Apr 2010
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Possumal
HONORARY CALLS FORUM MODERATOR edit: AND TOKEN LIBERAL
Member # 823
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posted September 17, 2010 06:18 AM
That be funny, R. Shaw. I believe you have great movie making skills.
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Al Prather
Foxpro Field Staff
Posts: 781 | From: Nicholasville, Ky. | Registered: Mar 2006
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Wily E
unknown comic
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posted September 17, 2010 06:36 AM
Greenside: "During this dispersal, what percent of all your howl backs would you attribute to dispersing coyote?"
Wow, that's a tough question for a couple reasons. First, I have to go back in time to remember when I did more recreational calling during the dispersal.
Let me explain, in recent years I haven't done a lot of reereational coyote calling during the peak of dispersal other than a handful of contests in other states. For ADC work, most of the calling I do is after Feb. to remove coyotes from certain problem areas. In the contest hunts, I try to work areas where family groups are mostly intact. It's hard to discern reactions from younger coyotes when they show up with the adults.
Back in the late "80s" I used to do a lot of recreational coyote calling during the dispersal but I don't anymore simply because my focus is on timely removal of problem coyotes After Feb.
If I could go back in time to when I did a lot of recreational coyote calling during the peak of dispersal, without actually conducting a study on the percentage of dispersing coyotes that answered me or being focused on it, I am sorry to say but the honest answer is, I DONT KNOW.
Now, if I was to guess based on memory (mine isn't the best), I would say I had far more responses from territorial adults than I did from dispersing young coyotes for obvious reasons. That's the best I can do.
Again, the disclaimers for that statement are:
1. My howls - not someone else's that sound different than mine. I am talking a combination of voice howls and hand call howls at that time. Not much into electronics then.
2. The calling pressure I was calling against at the time as opposed to the calling pressure of someone else's area.
3. The set-up I use in the country I am used to calling as opposed to someone else's. This is a huge variable with response. For example, if coyotes watch or hear you enter the area, they simply are not going to be as responsive from the standpoint of answering you.
Generalizing statements like, "I don't get many young coyotes to answer me when I howl" are so hard to sort through without a discussion on the variables from place to place and from time to time. I can't emphasize enough how important it is to focus on those variables to help better understand coyotes.
I sure chewed around that one didn't I Dennis? LOL! I am just trying to give you and honest and objective answer.
Greenside: "Can you tell the difference between the howls of a dispersing male from a female?"
Now that question I can answer you. NO!
Can someone else? I don't know. I have never been focused on it. I have been focused on the difference between howls of adult vs. young or male vs. female in adult coyotes but not young males vs. young females.
Now here are some generalizations for you so please take this with a huge grain of salt....
Young coyotes are generally higher pitched than old coyotes. OLDER Female coyotes are generally higher pitched than OLDER male coyotes. I can't say I have noticed any difference between young male and young female coyotes but I am going to start paying closer attention after this discussion. There is certainly exceptions to this generalizing "rule of thumb".
I haven't heard many young coyotes that sounded like old coyotes but I have had many old female and male coyotes that sounded like eachother.
When calling adult coyotes on dens with and without dogs, I have been wrong so many times when trying to guess which was the old male, which was the old female, and which were yearlings that I quit trying to outguess it. I have seen every combination of behavior you can imagine including multiple dog (male) coyotes without a female present. Usually the male is the aggressor with the female following behind but again, I have been wrong enough times that I quit trying to outguess it and I have a lot of experience with it and pay attention to it.
Greenside: "Do 9 month old coyote territorial howl?"
They howl. LOL!
Consider that most dispersing young coyotes are looking for territories and a few are still with the adults that raised them which is why you end up with yearlings on dens in the spring. I can't say whether their howls are based on "hey who is out there" vs. "this is my territory stay out".
What I do know is that young canines of all sorts rely on adults for their courage.
Yours were good questions Greenside but I'm not going to step outside the realm of my knowledge and experience to speculate simply to impress someone. My answers are honest and straightforward and if they sound like I don't know what I'm talking about, so be it.
The bottom line is this, the more I study and learn about coyotes, the more I realize how much I don't know.
When it comes to coyotes, the bottomless pit of knowledge and understanding is in how they adapt their behavior to fit their environment and how their behavior changes based on their life's experiences. Their basic instincts for survival do not change but how they adapt their behavior to certain situations does change.
As a perfect example, most coyotes run from gunfire but some recognize gunfire as an easy meal such as dead prairie dogs on a dog town or crippled geese next to the river. CONDITIONED RESPONSE!
~SH~
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Wily E
unknown comic
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posted September 17, 2010 07:50 AM
ch: "you make some great points Wiley but you seem to easily discount other individuals visual observations."
I don't discount other individuals visual observations Coyote Hunter. I simply question the reason for those observations. Big difference. If someone tells me they don't get young coyotes to howl back, I'm not questioning that observation. I'm questioning the reason for it.
As pointed out, there is lots of reasons coyotes do not respond that have nothing to do with the howl itself. If we can sort out those variables then there is also a big difference between howls. Can you argue either point? If callers are to learn anything from eachother, we have to have a discussion on variables to see if there are differences in variables to account for the differences in observations.
As an example, one thing I am sure enough of to sink my teeth into is that a good voice howl will create a better response in more situations with more coyotes of all ages (considering all variables from place to place and time to time) than any reproduced coyote howl I have used or heard HANDS DOWN. I've proven that to myself time and time again in not only in the areas I have worked but in other states as well. If you think about it it makes perfect sense too.
I've also had many experienced coyote men tell me that the two are not in the same league when they made the comparison between the two at a distance. The coyotes have told me the same thing. As a matter of fact, just yesterday I had a coyote that ran to the top of the hill nearby and answered despite our vehicle being in plain sight. This coyote was absolutely convinced there was another coyote beside our pickup. I had an eye witness. I have seen this many times.
When you talk about your observations to your howls, I am comparing that to my observations from my howls. If yours are mechanically reproduced and mine are from my own vocal chords, we are comparing "apples to oranges".
Fair enough?
Again, the only way I can learn anything from a generalizing statement about coyote vocalization response is if I can sort out the variables.
CH: "In my work in the area I
hunt..............everyday, year round. I would say I understand what I can and can not do with these coyotes."
Sure, with your techniques and your methods. That might not be the case with someone else's methods and their techniques.
Let me give you one of the most vivid examples I can think of regarding how coyotes break their own rules. They did a fascinating study on coyote behavior in the city of Chicago that opened a whole new world to how coyotes can adapt to certain environments. One of the radio colored coyotes was laying down next to and downwind of a golf course with golfers walking and driving by most of the day. When the researcher that collared this coyote walked upwind, this coyote immediately sat up and started warning barking. That coyote was not afraid of human scent per say, that coyote was afraid of the researcher that placed the collar on this coyote and recognized her individual scent. Now doesn't that break the rules of understanding coyote behavior as we know it?
Incidentally, the coyotes used the railroads as their means to traverse the city. Sage brush and 2 track trails being substituted for by rail cars and train tracks. Makes perfect sense if you stop and think about it. Other than the occasional graffiti artist, not much to worry about.
These urban coyote studies are fascinating to me because they teach us the lengths coyotes will go to in order to adapt and survive.
ch: "I have seen runt, timid, neophobic coyotes that just do not respond to other coyte sounds."
Where have I heard the term "neophobic" before? LOL!
You have heard runt, timid, neophobic coyotes that just do not respond to YOUR coyote sounds and your techniques in your geographical area.
Fair enough?
So have I but you also didn't see me say that EVERY YOUNG COYOTE in EVERY SITUATION will respond to howls did you?
CH: "Brian Mitchells study clearly reinforces my observations that not all coyotes will respond or approach coyotes vocalizations."
Again, Brian's sounds, Brian's observations, Brian's techniques, Brian's time of year, and Brian's area which might be totally different with someone else's sounds, their techniques, their areas, and WHEN they are calling.
You don't know if we are comparing "apples to oranges" and neither do I. The total picture might be much bigger here.
I can tell you one thing for sure CH, good research should lead to more questions than answers. I have seen a lot of research that wasn't worth the paper it was written on simply because it didn't consider all the variables. Nobody likes good research more than I do and Steve Allen has done some of the best because nobody questioned the results of Steve's reasearch more than Steve did. That's what made him one of the best if not THE BEST coyote researcher of all times.
Let me give you two classic examples of exactly what I'm talking about. First, I'll bet you've heard the statement, "coyotes respond to any decrease in population by having larger litters" haven't you? Steve Allen questioned that logic and found out that the number of yearling female coyotes that are breeding played a significant role in coyote population recruitment. The affect of the percentage of yearling females that breed in a population of coyotes can have as much affect as litter size. Whether or not the yearling females breed is based on the dynamics of that coyote population. To me, this was an excellent observation and changed the way many researchers thought about it.
Coyotes have a lot of characteristics that are wolf like particularly in populations that are unexploited such as those in Yellowstone National Park or should I say "WERE in Yellowstone Park" (Wolf displacement). Consider that not all female wolves in a pack will breed. Coyote population dynamics obviously plays a role in the number of yearling females that breed or you wouldn't have dry yearlings and wet yearlings.
I have a high degree of respect for anyone that thinks for themselves and my thought process is shaped the same way.
You and I both know that MOST coyotes have no trouble finding food or they wouldn't live there. Coyotes don't stay where food is scarce. They move to the food and their list of food items is never ending. I have never seen a healthy coyote without fat on it's back in the winter months so I can see no reason why litter size would be affected by anything other than age and fertility factors that are unrelated to food. I have never seen a starving coyote that wasn't mangy. Have you? Incidentally, the fattest coyote I ever saw had no bottom jaw and survived by licking corn out of cow sh*t. I doubt that coyote, if it was a female, had fertility issues related to nutrition.
Next example of the results of bad research, how many times have you heard the statement "if you remove coyotes that are not killing livestock, other coyotes will move in and start killing".
What a ridiculous statement. As if some coyotes are genetically pre-disposed to kill livestock and others aren't. As you know, all coyotes are opportunistic predators and the only reason some coyotes won't kill livestock while others do is their age (confidence) and/or they have found easier food. Coyotes certainly aren't being genetically selected or taught to not prey on livestock which is why the statement is so ridiculous to anyone that understands coyotes. I have even heard this from ranchers that never have coyote problems. When I ask them why some coyotes will kill livestock and others won't they don't have an answer.
Not to drift too far but my all time favorite was a study on water quality that reached the conclusion that "the cloudiness of the water was due to turbidity". Haha! GOSH, YA THINK???? Never thought not to compare still water to moving water. LOL! Can you imagine that someone actually paid for that study. Probably you and me. Haha.
My point, take research with a huge grain of salt unless you can trust the source and know the variables.
Again, I didn't say every coyote will respond did I?
CH: "If your coyotes will not respond it will make it difficult to determine, at least in a cold call situation, how to vocally approach a call sequance."
I agree. Some areas coyotes are not as vocal but they are USUALLY curious about their own kind even when CAUTION outweighs that CURIOUSITY.
My passion for killing difficult coyotes has made recreational calling boring in comparison. I made more stupid mistakes, had more bad luck, and botched more call stands this summer than I care to mention but those situations make you a better caller. I also didn't have a good set of dogs this summer to cover those mistakes due to circumstances out of my control. Hopefully that will change with the pups I am starting. Used to have good dogs but not for a while due dogs getting old and mange in the coyotes reducing the need. Certainly know the value of good dogs but there is also a lot of responsibility that goes with them. Sorry, I'm drifting again.
CH: "If you are calling through a given area in the fall I would always try to locate as many of your coyotes as possible but do not pass up a area that looks like it should hold coyotes just because you did not hear or see a coyote."
You said "the fall" so let's go with that. I agree from the standpoint that just because I didn't get a response doesn't mean there isn't coyotes there. With that said, I USUALLY don't call an area IN THE FALL unless I get a response. Why go to where they MIGHT BE when I can go to WHERE THEY ARE?
CH: "I do beleive in my area, I get to know the coyotes I have through out the year, especially on my sheep grounds, I do end up killing most of them when on stand with vocalizations."
I try to kill the coyotes before I really get to know them. Unfortunately, that's not always a luxury is it?
Since there is so many ADC men gathered here, I'd really like to start a discussion on running an effective coyote control program and all the variables that this entails. I don't do things the same as I used to and I think it would be a great topic of discussion. It may be awhile before I get some time to really put some thought into it but there is many ways to skin a cat when it comes to "legitimate" ADC work but I think there is some ways to skin a cat that are better than others. I kill less coyotes on the ground now than I ever have, some of which is due to changes in coyote populations, but I also have never had less livestock predation than I do now.
One of my favorite ADC topics of discussion is how only a fool would brag about killing large numbers of coyotes on sheepmen after April 1st unless they simply can't handle the size area they have. Big piles of dead coyotes on sheepmen after April 1st usually means big piles of dead sheep. Where is the bragging rights there? Pure ignorance.
Timing is everything in this job and that's what I would really like to talk about but not until I have more time to put my thoughts down.
A big part of this job is educating the producers we serve that timing is everything.
~SH~
[ September 17, 2010, 09:21 AM: Message edited by: Wily E ]
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coyotehunter
Knows what it's all about
Member # 3282
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posted September 18, 2010 11:44 AM
Good grief. I will have to take some time to respond to all of this. Are we talking about calling in general or control work. getting know my coyotes does not mean first name basis with a coyote. it means knowing how they are traveling, were they are watering, denning............year after year. It is like fishing, once a good spot always a good spot. A den pocket with hold coyotes year round year after year. take 1 pair out and soon another will move in. I will take some time address more of this but I work more sheep than anyone else in the eastern half of Wyoming. I love hearing guys talk about control work that run only cattle and maybe have a few small bands of sheep if any at all. If you think that all your coyotes are going to be isolated and have no human interaction.............well good luck with that. I voice howl as well. just not so excited about telling the whole world about it. Dogs used to be kind of a trade secret as well and now everyone wants to give it a try. I have had coyotes pups over the years and could relay lots of stories and general observations. Having a coyotes recognize an individual is something I have seen many times with the coyotes I have had the house. they growl at me and licked my daughters face.
quote:
When you talk about your observations to your howls, I am comparing that to my observations from my howls. If yours are mechanically reproduced and mine are from my own vocal chords, we are comparing "apples to oranges".
Fair enough?
Again making assumptions that had you been in that situation you would have had a better response due to a list of things you would have done different. I work in a very small area on a lot of sheep. not 3,4 5 counties like some of you guys in the Dakotas. I have to kill every coyote in areas that are several townships in size. then come back and do it all over again. week after week after week. I do not have a single piece of equipment on cattle. I have not called in a single coyote in a cow pasture since........good grief I do not know when. I have 80,000+ sheep me and another guy work on along with the help of every other rancher with a plane, helicopter, and a gun. I got ranches running M44's, traps snares...........and when the coyote is thoroughly screwed up I get to clean up the mess. You are giving lots of great examples but they just aren't the world I live in. I got tough animals. The first ones to die out here are the vocal aggressive ones. The ones that make it are the quiet, timid scared of there own shadow kind of coyotes. If they are howling in this country, someone is trying to kill them. 3 private guys with airplanes and 1 with a jet ranger. Sirens on ever ranch truck and gun on the dash. If you think that you coming over here and doing a little voice howling in August is going to call in all the remaining coyotes well........best of luck to ya. Neophobic is a appropriate word to use to describe what we have over here. Yes Scott I got the reference and it put a grin on my face when you said it. I do believe coyotes are coyotes no matter were you are but........not all coyotes are subject to year round control work to the scale that you have on open country with sheep. From 1860-1885 Eastern Wyoming along with the Dakotas was a wash with Strychnine sulphate poisoning. For the 30 years after that point with everything with in there means to eradicate every predator and raptor in the western states. 150 years ago you had a coyote that was mainly a scavenger with most meals coming as scraps left by wolves. up through the yearly 70's bait stations and Getters were used by every one with a local extension office and a bounty trapper. Coyotes that scavenge in this part of the country die and have done so for more than a century. Its no different then a dog breeder culling for a certain trait. Is a coyote any different? The thought that you can go from state to state with the same bag of tricks and expect the same results just does not hold water with me. Densities, average age of the population and pressure dictate how your coyotes will respond. If you are not aware of those conditions when you roll in your take will suffer. I have hunted and trapped coyotes in 9 western states and have used dogs on dens East and West of the Mississippi and have a basis for this statement. We just do not have the same coyote today that we had here 150-200 years ago. Subtle differences from region to region and state to state. I know to an extent I may seem contradictory that coyotes are all the same but…………I think pressure is the big difference. Every try trapping coyotes in Arizona?? Go there for about 4 weeks and then come over here. I have done it. Around here you can not get away with many mistakes. In other areas coyotes are more forgiving. Ever try calling Texas? Utah? Minnesota? There all differences. Densities, average age of the population and pressure are all different. How those coyotes react to sounds, smells, other coyotes is all different.
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Sure, with your techniques and your methods. That might not be the case with someone else's methods and their techniques.
the techniques and methods I use are what works in this area. This is a job, not a hobby. The reason I still have a job is because my methods and techniques work. What I am doing now is from hard work learning what works here. Working with individual rancher needs and the type of coyotes I am dealing with. I have some pastures that are locked gates on deeded land were I am the only one working on it. I have some spots were I only get a call if they got one that is killing that they can’t get. Killing a coyote that has not been messed with is far easier than one that has been harassed and terrorized for a couple of weeks before they call me.
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You have heard runt, timid, neophobic coyotes that just do not respond to YOUR coyote sounds and your techniques in your geographical area.
Seriously? There all going to die over here. I am saying your methods and techniques on problem coyotes over here wouldn’t work. LOL Mine are working that is why I disagree with your approach on my coyotes.
As far as the research that you reference we are both in agreement. Steve and Brian are both great guys . Just talked with Steve a few weeks ago. He had some very nice things to say about you. Hopefully this winter we can all sit down for a beer.
quote:
One of my favorite ADC topics of discussion is how only a fool would brag about killing large numbers of coyotes on sheepmen after April 1st unless they simply can't handle the size area they have. Big piles of dead coyotes on sheepmen after April 1st usually means big piles of dead sheep. Where is the bragging rights there? Pure ignorance.
I agree. We lamb in mid May and really start to work the coyotes hard in March and keep at it until about early to mid July before things really change. Coyotes pups pretty mobile by then. The numbers go down on adults every month. With this past August being the slowest month I have ever had out here. The type of terrain (plane or ground work), cooperative neighbors, and sheer number of squares miles to cover will dictate the number of coyotes killed.
Posts: 55 | From: west | Registered: Oct 2008
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coyote whacker
Knows what it's all about
Member # 639
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posted September 19, 2010 07:11 AM
coyotehunter you make it sound as though your the only one working with pressured coyotes? Funny thing is most all coyotes around sheep producers are just that! We all know tolerance for coyotes around sheep producers is very low for the most part, with that in mind we all have issues to deal with as they are pressured in these areas by many factors in others they are not.
We all have issues and we all us the methods and tools that work in that area at that time. To say ones methods or tool of choice wouldn't work in "yours" or "my" area I feel is being close minded IMO. I weclome at times a different approach or am willing to bounce ideas off of other co workers, that is how we can keep on learning. WE all have our strengths in tools used and we can gain knowledge by learning from others.
Many ways to accomplish the same end result which is to stop the killing as fast as we can correct?
Terrain and cover can dictait the tools and methods used to a degree, age of the coyotes killing,where in the geoghaphic location are these coyotes killing, access to surrounding land as you stated all factor in.
I'm betting if thought about, what you experiance is not much different than what other ADC guys experiance who work on sheep producers.
1 county with 2 guys to some would be a luxury versus having 3 large counties with many sheep producers spread about. More time to travel to complaints and more complaints over a wider area and 1 less man on the ground.
Point being again we all deal with issues and circumstances in this line of work. I don't think your on an "island" coyotehunter.
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This is done on my time and my dime. My views may differ from those of others!
Posts: 376 | From: USA | Registered: Apr 2005
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DAA
Utah/Promoted WESTERN REGIONAL Hunt Director
Member # 11
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posted September 19, 2010 09:55 AM
To howl or not to howl... Seems like one time to definitely howl, is when locating?
I'd really like to hear more about just how you guys do your locating. Time of day/night, time of year, sounds, how long you wait for a response, how far you travel between stops, whether you locate in daylight and go after them immediately, or it's mostly a take note and come back later deal? I'd really like to hear some of the finer points from the guys that really know it.
I have never done much locating, at all. When I have, it's been simply driving around at night, stopping to try and get a response. Either with mouth blown howler or electronic group-yip-howl sounds. This seems to work "okay". But the reason I've never done it much, is that it doesn't fit in well with the realities of the distances I usually travel to hunt and the limited time I have. If I drive a couple hundred miles, then stay up all night locating, I won't be much good for hunting the next afternoon and I'll be downright dangerous driving a couple hundred miles home at the end of the day. So, like I said, never done it much.
But with you guys that do a lot of locating, I imagine you have some things you have learned to make it more efficient for you. When Cal made the point that some guys are better at locating than others, that kind of got me thinking that I could probably stand to learn a thing or two about it, and maybe I'd find a way to work it more into my hunts, even given my restraints of distance and time.
Heck, what I'd REALLY love to do, is get you guys to advise me on locating, given my specific situation. Wanting to locate during the day, huge tracts of public land, fall/winter, widely varying densities, generally lots of competition with other recreational callers. But I'll be more than satisfied with just hearing more about how you do it for YOUR specific situations and trying to apply it to my situation.
CH mentioned something along the lines of giving away the store, in regards to the voice howling, and I sure can appreciate what he is saying. Hopefully asking for some discussion on the finer points of locating isn't asking too sensitive a question? But I'd certainly understand if it is. Maybe if you've got something you don't want to share with the world, I could swindle you into sharing it with me, dave@rmvh.com, LOL!
Seriously though, given the amount of experience and knowledge present here, I think I smell an opportunity to improve my game.
- DAA
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"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter
Posts: 2676 | From: Salt Lake City, UT | Registered: Jan 2003
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coyotehunter
Knows what it's all about
Member # 3282
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posted September 19, 2010 10:26 AM
quote:
coyotehunter you make it sound as though your the only one working with pressured coyotes? Funny thing is most all coyotes around sheep producers are just that! We all know tolerance for coyotes around sheep producers is very low for the most part, with that in mind we all have issues to deal with as they are pressured in these areas by many factors in others they are not.
Not at all. There is no luxury with working on that many sheep. There no roads out here and mainly just wore out two tracks. I am saying that everyone is dealing with pressure and different types....did you read all that I wrote? that is why I brought up hunting in Arizona, minnesota, texas, utah...........If I have learned anything out here is that you have to be willing to not do the same thing over and over again. Don't get locked into a routine. Since Randy Anderson videos came out everyone is a howling expert. Doing something different these days means don't be howling on everystand. that being said the electronic howls get wore out as well. Who does not have a Ecaller these days. Every sound you can imagine that a coyote makes is available for sale. the sounds I have and use on my Foxpro I recorded myself. Don't make this out to be something its not. I don't know what your district is like and there are way to many variables for me to make any comparisons to what I am doing to what you are experienceing. The topic was about howling or not on stand. I do not believe that the recreational caller has enough information about the coytes he is calling to rely on just howling to call in a high percentage of coyotes. in the fall there are enough YOY coyotes that in most situations for the rec. caller a distress call of some sort will be more productive. If you are more advanced and have a better understanding of the area and the coyotes you are calling well then do what you feel comfortable with. There are a lot of sounds and subtle nuances to vocalizations that with out the proper instruction and time in the field the average guy is going to get it wrong more then right.
quote:
1 county with 2 guys to some would be a luxury versus having 3 large counties with many sheep producers spread about. More time to travel to complaints and more complaints over a wider area and 1 less man on the ground
It all depends on what MANY is. If you work sheep and do any denning. Not accasionally find time to gas a hole that the plane seen and told you about. Actually go out and activley hunt dens well then you understand what I am talking about. I have a board meeting every month that I have to give a report on exactly what each of us took. hours worked, were at, adults taken, wet dry, number of loaded females, number of wet females, number of dens and be willing to produce all of them for anyone asking. every month.
Our August coyotes are tough coyotes. On sheep at that point in their lives in this country. they have seen it all and there is a reason why they are still alive. We have a bounty in this area and not a single coyote was turned in on the ground in the month of july and august. I just don't agree that you will slide in here and howl them all in.
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted September 19, 2010 11:12 AM
Well, I can certainly relate to what Dave is talking about. Except, I drive way over 200 miles and I have to cold call, not having a clue where the coyotes are, at the moment. So, I make stands until I'm into coyotes and that wastes a lot of daylight. In my opinion, howling as a locating tool, at night is not very successful because (oh, take Nevada, for instance) the bedding areas could be ten miles from the stunted sage flats where they kick up the jacks. In other words, I want to know where they are now, not where they were last night.
And, oh yeah, did I mention that i'm practically stone deaf and must depend on my son or grandson to hear a response? When I'm hunting alone, locating is such a waste of time that I may just as well make a stand out of it and wait. I don't see a solution?
Good hunting. LB
[ September 19, 2010, 11:15 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31462 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Possumal
HONORARY CALLS FORUM MODERATOR edit: AND TOKEN LIBERAL
Member # 823
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posted September 19, 2010 11:25 AM
Leonard, I agree with your statement about locating at night. If you get a response, it only proves they are there at that time. Around here, they travel long distances in their hunting cycle, and may not be anywhere near where they were the night before.
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Al Prather
Foxpro Field Staff
Posts: 781 | From: Nicholasville, Ky. | Registered: Mar 2006
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Jrbhunter
PAYS ATTENsION TO deTAIL
Member # 459
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posted September 19, 2010 11:33 AM
QUOTE: Leonard
"And, oh yeah, did I mention that i'm practically stone deaf and must depend on my son or grandson to hear a response? When I'm hunting alone, locating is such a waste of time that I may just as well make a stand out of it and wait. I don't see a solution?"
That's why I take my dog along on solo hunts or locating missions. I am 80%-90% deaf in my right ear and have no perception of direction when I hear a group howling (or a phone ringing/ect). The dog locks on and points me in the right direction.
Electronic ear muffs helped me hear more but they never help *ME* pinpoint a direction due to my condition. The dog always does.
Posts: 615 | From: Indiana | Registered: Dec 2004
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Wily E
unknown comic
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posted September 19, 2010 11:37 AM
Let me do a little catching up before I get back on topic.
Locohead,
Congratulations on the new addition. I hope to meet your entire family someday. Perhaps the next time I make it down to Denver. Hope your bullets are finding plenty of live targets and you have been able to apply some of what we were able to cover in our short time.
TA,
I really enjoyed hearing about your observations on how wind carried sound. Of course I realized how wind can dampen sound but I never really thought about wind carrying sound in the same manner it drifts a bullet. That was an interesting observation on your part and will be something I consider in the future.
As far as guys giving you crap about moving the speaker around when locating coyotes, I guess if you don't have a lot of hearing to lose, it's not a bad idea. As you have proven, it will definitely carry your sound to more real estate but I couldn't stand the volume. I do the same thing when I am locating coyotes but not with the speaker because I can't stand to lose any more hearing. Between the time spent on loud tractors, gunfire, and loud rock music, I can't spare any more hearing loss. If I am locating in the same place I plan to call, as opposed to just locating coyotes, I would want that speaker away from me to move the focus.
DAA,
Besides Leonard's posts, there is two guys on these sites that always stood out to me as being real serious hunters. That would be you and Vic Carlson. I would enjoy hunting with either of you because I believe knowledge and experience would be reciprocated.
You ask a lot of good questions about howling that, to answer accurately, would require more thought and time than I really have right now but don't give up. I would love to help you out in that area because I know you are already an accomplished caller and marksman. I would rather show you first hand someday.
~SH~
[ September 19, 2010, 11:40 AM: Message edited by: Wily E ]
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TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Field Marshall, Southern Minneesota Sector
Member # 794
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posted September 19, 2010 11:39 AM
quote:
In my opinion, howling as a locating tool, at night is not very successful because (oh, take Nevada, for instance) the bedding areas could be ten miles from the stunted sage flats where they kick up the jacks. In other words, I want to know where they are now, not where they were last night.
quote:
Leonard, I agree with your statement about locating at night. If you get a response, it only proves they are there at that time. Around here, they travel long distances in their hunting cycle, and may not be anywhere near where they were the night before.
This is just a suggestion but maybe you should do youre locateing a few hours before lite.
" Walkers game-ears work for me"
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What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
Posts: 5064 | From: S.D. | Registered: Jan 2006
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TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Field Marshall, Southern Minneesota Sector
Member # 794
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posted September 19, 2010 12:03 PM
quote:
If I am locating in the same place I plan to call, as opposed to just locating coyotes, I would want that speaker away from me to move the focus.
Scott you have a good point and I do agree with what you said.
Question: When placeing the caller out and away from youre position have you had coyotes come in and then had them get behind a bush or mound of dirt to where you could'nt see them or get a shot at them or had to wait them out till they moved so you could get a shot off???
As you know I do most of my calling alone and I find it easier for me to get a shot and less chance of a stand going bad if I have them come straight in and in site.. I take the shot as soon as Im comfortable with it and get the game over.. I just got back from S.D. yesterday after doing some locateing for the up comeing season and also did a little calling. I called a pr. in on first stand with a female popping into gun range first and after I took her out a male showed up in the same location and I put him down. I had the cam. along but it did'nt turn out the best and only got the male on vidio..
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What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted September 19, 2010 12:18 PM
Thanks for the tip, Tim.
Dave, accept the invite from Scott and wangle me in, as well! That would be a worthwhile event.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31462 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Wily E
unknown comic
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posted September 19, 2010 12:41 PM
Greenside,
I want to revisit this because you really got me thinking.
Greenside: "During this dispersal, what percent of all your howl backs would you attribute to dispersing coyote?"
The answer is still, I DON'T KNOW but I want to elaborate further.
As mentioned previously, it's easier to discern the responses of young coyotes from old coyotes rather than by sex but there is another element here.
Not all young coyotes disperse. For whatever reason you are going to have a certain percentage of young coyotes that stay with the adults in the same area they were born and raised. A denning pair with a yearling or two with them is quite common. As a matter of fact, I have seen just about as many pairs with yearlings as pairs without yearlings. Due to the territorial nature of coyotes, I've always believed these yearlings are pups from a previous litter.
There is a number of reasons coyotes disperse or don't disperse. Food, habitat, human disturbance (hunting seasons), weather, and just a need to strike out on their own and find mates are, I believe, reasons why coyotes disperse.
My point to your question? Within the young category of coyotes during the prime fur season, you have dispersers and non disperses to make your question even more difficult to answer. If I am able to discern the response from a young coyote vs. old, I still cannot discern between dispersing and non-dispersing coyotes. I believe young coyotes that are still running with the adults (non dispersers) will probably answer howls more readily than dispersers running through foreign ground.
With that said, I still believe the advantages of howling still outweigh the disadvantages in most situations.
DAA,
Changed my mind, after reading through your questions I think I can try to answer them without going into a lot of detail.
Time of day/night,
An hour before sunrise up to 2 hours after.
An hour before sunset up to 1 hour after.
Just a rough guess. Favorite time is when yardlights are coming on. They are really close to where they are staying at that time of evening. Middle of night, as Leonard pointed out, too much risk of them being away from where they are staying during the day.
time of year,
Anytime of year but less effective during times of high human disturbance. In your situation, that would probably be during deer rifle season. They're probably not going to be quite as social if they have been run around all day.
sounds,
Just a duplication of what you have heard coyotes do themselves. Long drawn out howls just like Randy Anderson does on his videos or Merv Griswold on the "Doggin coyote" videos.
how long you wait for a response,
Most responses will be within 3 minutes but sometimes it takes longer. I don't wait much longer than that.
how far you travel between stops,
Depends on how far I believe sound is carrying and the roughness of the terrain. What I have found is that if you can see yard lights very clearly and sounds are very sharp and distinct, you will be able to hear responses from much further distances than balmy days. Pay attention to the sounds around you and that will be your barometer.
In flat ground in clear conditions, 2 miles between stands. In balmy weather and more hills, 1 mile between stands. General "rule of thumb". That's for my hearing.
whether you locate in daylight and go after them immediately,
Depends whether I am on a locating mission or calling mission. If I hear coyotes at 8AM, you bet I'm going after them unless I think they are too close.
or it's mostly a take note and come back later deal?
Well there is one consideration here, once again this is just a "rule of thumb" but if they respond immediately, if they are close, and if their response is short and abrupt, I might wait on them so I don't bump them on the way in. If you happen to locate an entire intact family group and they are close, a lot of times they will be on their way immediately and you really risk the chance of being detected.
Bill Austin (quoting Kenny Rogers): "You gotta know when to hold them and know when to fold them".
In contrast, if the response in the morning is long and drawn out and quite a distance away, then I will move on them. It takes a lot of guesswork out of it.
CH,
Before I get into a lengthy response on your posts, let me address one issue that I can see is a concern of yours and that is ADC techniques being released to the general public.
There is nothing sacred anymore when it comes to ADC techniques and calling techniques. For every guy that keeps information to himself, there is 10 guys telling someone else. It doesn't matter whether it's stalking antelope behind a horse, cow talking to elk, or the use of decoy dogs for adult coyotes. If you have a hunting technique that works, it's only a matter of time before it's going to be common knowledge with the general hunting public. Everyone has a friend. Many good ADC techniques have met the same fate, rabbit distress (Ray Alcorn), howling (Bill Austin), pup distress (Johnny Stewart), sirens, decoy dogs (Merv Griswold), etc. etc.
Don't be a hypocrite either. If you weren't trying to learn new techniques, you wouldn't be on the internet.
Now this isn't to address you personally but rather to ADC men in general. I don't consider all ADC men as "prima dona" coyote hunters just because they do it for a living. Many of the best coyote hunters I know are recreational coyote callers. Just the same I wouldn't want everyone I know carrying the ADC title protecting my livestock. Some ADC men are just drawing a paycheck for recreational coyote hunting and trapping.
We all started at the beginning with our learning curve and nobody is an island of knowledge.
Whether we like it or not, there is going to be a lot of guys out there calling and educating coyotes. If I can help some of the more serious hunters to kill a higher percentage of what they call in, it's in my best interest to do so within the time I have available. If someone wants to take it to the next step of actually having me show them what I have learned and I don't feel it's a reciprocating situation, I am going to get paid for my time just as I paid others for their time. After this many years of both "legitimate" ADC work and recreational coyote calling, recreational coyote calling is not as fun as it used to be as it is with most seasoned ADC men. There is a much bigger committment with showing someone how I call as opposed to telling them. You can tell someone about stand selection but it doesn't really make sense until you show them. With that said, I have had a lot of reciprocating situations that were awesome experiences such as calling coyotes in different country basically trading coyote calling tips for a guided tour of a new area. Great times. Trading night calling tips for day calling tips, etc. etc.
CH, I'm sure you can appreciate the value of personal instruction since you obviously found the same value in it that I did. It takes you to a higher level of knowledge much quicker. It also helps sort out the guys who are really serious about improving their game from those who just want to have fun.
Bottom line, with the internet and personal paid instructions, knowledge is readily available for those willing to seak it. Nothing is sacred.
~SH~
[ September 19, 2010, 01:13 PM: Message edited by: Wily E ]
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Wily E
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posted September 19, 2010 01:02 PM
Leonard,
We need to plan something.
~SH~
[ September 19, 2010, 01:07 PM: Message edited by: Wily E ]
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coyotehunter
Knows what it's all about
Member # 3282
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posted September 19, 2010 01:44 PM
Scott, I do not mean to come across harsh or critical. I am better at this one on one then through this medium. Lots of good points that I do not comment on, lots of good free information for guys. Nothing beats personal instruction out in the field. I have learned a lot from hunting with and running trap lines with others guys. I just don't always see how control work approach to coyotes is always helpful to the guy just out recreational calling. My big goal now is to get a hold of Sherm Blom..........sent a letter off, don't even know if it was the right address. If anyone can help with that I would sure appreciate it.
[ September 19, 2010, 01:46 PM: Message edited by: coyotehunter ]
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Wily E
unknown comic
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posted September 19, 2010 02:21 PM
CH: "Are we talking about calling in general or control work."
The topic of whether to howl or not to howl was geared more towards recreational coyote hunting during the prime fur season as opposed to year-round ADC work but I still rely heavily on howling during ADC work as well.
CH: "A den pocket with hold coyotes year round year after year."
In most cases I would agree but I have seen the exceptions.
There is a few factors that create a good, as you call it, "den pocket"....
1. Habitat - coyotes USUALLY like to den in areas with enough cover to create shade for themselves and their pups and they like to move in some degree of concealment when given the option.
2. Water - coyotes will ALWAYS den in close proximity to water. Some years water is not an issue because it is everywhere. In drought years water can be a huge determining factor on whether historic denning areas will be used.
3. Food - coyotes will USUALLY den pretty close to a stable food source but, as you know, food is usually not a big factor considering all the things coyotes will eat.
4. Human Disturbance - coyotes will USUALLY den 3/4 to 1 mile or more from areas of frequent human disturbance.
- late edit - the exception to this would be in urban environments where they feel safe around humans. I am familiar with the urban exception.
5. Topography - coyotes will USUALLY den in areas that offer escape routes. Many times, in this country, it's the side draw off the main draw.
As you mention, when it comes to denning there is certainly areas with a much higher magnetic force for coyotes than other areas. Some areas will have coyotes in them every year unless one of the factors mentioned above becomes an issue. Drought can change all the rules.
CH: "If you think that all your coyotes are going to be isolated and have no human interaction.............well good luck with that."
I hope you didn't misunderstand anything I have stated that would lead you to believe that I don't think the coyotes I am working with don't have a lot of interaction with humans. I don't know where that came from. Minimal human interaction would be the exception rather than the rule.
CH: "I voice howl as well. just not so excited about telling the whole world about it."
You just did. LOL!
CH: "If you think that you coming over here and doing a little voice howling in August is going to call in all the remaining coyotes well........best of luck to ya."
Who are you responding to CH? LOL!
Can you show me where I stated that I could go into the middle of your sheep areas and call ALL THE REMAINING COYOTES in August?
This discussion was primarily focused on recreational coyote calling during the prime fur season so it really doesn't have a lot of application to high sheep production areas. If you are doing your job that should be the last place anyone wants to go call coyotes.
Come on CH, I've been at this game a long time. Not only do I have a lot of experience at this, I have also spent a lot of time with others who are very experienced. There isn't much that I haven't seen or heard about when it comes to difficult coyotes.
I have called in some sheep areas in Wyoming that have been heavily worked by WS and called old coyotes in during the prime fur season.
I'll be willing to bet that I could come in behind you and remove old coyotes and you could do the same behind me just by the fact that none of us do things quite the same or see the country from the same perspective. We have a lot of tools at our disposal and the most difficult coyotes by one method might be the easiest by another.
Case in point. Slim Pedersen told me about one particular old coyote he was not able to catch. A local ranch kid snubbed a trap up to a cow carcass and caught that coyote. I think we often make them
Sorry to break it to you but you don't have the corner market on difficult coyotes.
Consider yoursef fortunate to be in an area with good sheep numbers. It will make you a better coyote hand by force. LOL! If it was so easy, it wouldn't be a specialized trade.
When it comes to comparing ADC hands, there is a lot of factors that enter in. Workloads, district sizes, sheep numbers, access, coyote numbers, public land issues, distances traveled, distribution of problem areas, aerial service, ground conditions, guard dogs, calling and trapping pressure, and the list goes on. I don't even want to get started down that road.
I was fortunate to follow in the footsteps of many good ADC hands. One that I consider a mentor had over 200 producers show up at his retirement party. Nobody can say anything complimentary about this particular ADC hand that's going to top that show of appreciation. Those are the men that I want to learn from. This isn't just about killing coyotes, it's about how we do our job and interact with those we serve.
This ADC mission statement sums it up best..
To prevent and minimize livestock loss in the most efficient and cost effective manner possible relative to the available resources.
The measure of success is the body count on dead livestock relative to the workload, not the body count on dead coyotes.
CH: "The thought that you can go from state to state with the same bag of tricks and expect the same results just does not hold water with me."
I am talking in terms of the majority of recreational coyote hunting situations and you are talking in terms of removing the last PHD coyote out of sheep range. Now that's quite a contrast. LOL!
From the ADC standpoint, I can assure you that I could call and kill many of your rankest coyotes. Again, you don't have the corner on difficult coyotes.
CH: "I am saying your methods and techniques on problem coyotes over here wouldn’t work. LOL Mine are working that is why I disagree with your approach on my coyotes."
Ahh....ok? Things must really change when you cross over into Wyoming because they certainly work at the border.
I guess I'll just have to prove you wrong someday. LOL! Don't take these discussions too seriosuly. The bantor is all part of the fun.
~SH~
[ September 19, 2010, 07:14 PM: Message edited by: Wily E ]
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Sage Buster
Knows what it's all about
Member # 3665
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posted September 19, 2010 03:28 PM
After reading all seven pages I have concluded that even though some of you think you know all there is to know about coyotes, you really don't.
Why don't you? Until one of you develops some type of gonkulator or flux capacitator that can read the mind of coyotes, why they howl, the type of howl they throw out, etc., then you're mainly pulling stuff out of your ass. You're still willing to be the elite internet expert, but did you know that since the dawn of the internet, there have been perhaps one billion experts on a billion topics.
If you have really hunted long and hard, then you would admit that sometimes coyotes don't read the textbooks plus they probably don't log on the internet.
Case in point. Yesterday we did some calling on the desert country along the Idaho-Nevada border. Made 5 or 6 solid stands but no takers. Did have 2 coyotes hang up on us but they would come no closer then maybe a quarter mile. On the last stand of the evening, we drove down this frequently used gravel road, crossed a bridge and then pulled over to walk into stand. While gathering the gear at the tailgate of the Tundra I looked towards the south right across the bridge and thought I saw a coyote standing right on the edge of the road, about 200 yards away and the exact spot we just drove by 2 minutes earlier. Binoculars concurred that it was indeed a coyote. I grabbed my FX3 and immediately turned it on to the first rabbit distress. This coyote then proceeds to come straight towards us and my partner ended up killing it about 100 feet away.
Since all of you seem know it all and are the A-team of callers, why did this coyote respond to a call within plain sight of two hunters shooting the shit milling around the tailgate of a pickup truck? I searched the internet over but cannot find the answer. Surely one of you self proclaimed experts can clue me in. Maybe if that guy who has killed 5,000 coyotes would sign up here and tell us all the secret. Until then, I'll just have to rely on you
Posts: 21 | From: Idaho | Registered: Sep 2010
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Paul Melching
Radical Operator Forum "You won't get past the front gate"
Member # 885
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posted September 19, 2010 03:48 PM
Sage guy
As one of the experts says "only the yippers know for sure and they aint talkin" I am not sure that you read what I read , but I dont think anyone claimed anything but an educated opinion on anything.Anyone that claims they Know for sure why a coyote does anything at any give time or situation is up for some ridicule.Thats why I read a lot and post very little.This place is a wealth of info just gotta sort out the bulshit from the ice cream.
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Those who value security over liberty soon will have neither !
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