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Author
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Topic: My first hand loads - shotgun
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DAA
Utah/Promoted WESTERN REGIONAL Hunt Director
Member # 11
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posted October 02, 2016 02:23 PM
Yesterday I made my first attempt at loading shotshells.
First 20 are 3", 1-1/2 oz. of Hevi-shot BB, listed at 1375 fps.
Was not totally satisfied with those crimps, but they'll work fine. Second batch was another 20 of 3", 1-1/2 oz. lead T shot, listed at 1400 fps. The crimps turned out better, I didn't bother taking another picture though ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) .
I picked up all the equipment and components at bargain prices. Bought the press used at 1/3 cost of new. Got a great deal from the guy who has been helping me sort things out as I get going on the T shot and the new primed hulls. He also pointed me at a great price on the Hevi-shot BB.
Anxious, but it will probably be a while anyway, before I can get out and see how they pattern and try them on coyotes.
Have ideas on other things I'd like to try. But the stuff is expensive and the cookie jar is trying to bite my hand off right now. So it will be awhile before I get to any those too.
Figured if I'm going to start making some shotgun stands, I may as well jump in and start hand loading them though.
Neither one of the above combinations is available in a factory load. That is my primary motivation, being able to load specifically for coyote.
Saving money ain't part of the deal. Getting setup and then stocking components is expensive. Would have been cheaper just to buy Fed. #4 buck and a box of Dead Coyote once in awhile. Not near as much fun though .
- DAA
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"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter
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UTcaller
NEVADA NIGHT FIGHTER
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posted October 02, 2016 03:32 PM
Sweet Dave. Hope they group well for you. Will definitely be a coyotes worst nightmare. ![[Cool]](cool.gif)
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted October 02, 2016 05:34 PM
You shame me!
I "should have" loaded shotshells a long time ago. I guess the reason is, my motivation on rifle has always been accuracy and tailoring a load for my specific rifle.
It's hard to get excited about 36" patterns. Mostly, it's terminal performance that I pay attention to and I have never had any complaints with the performance of #4 Buck. All I have to do is hit them somewhere that slows 'em down.
Bearing in mind, Dave, that you will likely catch some ridicule from Victor Carlson for GROUND SLUCING coyotes! Apparently, that's a no no, down by McNeal? Be warned.
Good hunting. El Bee
edit: oh! did you load some granulated filler?
[ October 02, 2016, 05:36 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31465 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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DAA
Utah/Promoted WESTERN REGIONAL Hunt Director
Member # 11
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posted October 02, 2016 06:36 PM
Leonard, the T shot loads I did use buffer if that's what you mean by filler. The HS BB loads used a pinch of actual filler on top of the shot to bring the level up a hair for crimping.
Loading heavier and denser than lead shot is true hand loading. Everything weighed, hands on labor intensive assembly etc. The only thing the loading press was used for is the crimps.
I'm the newest of noobs. Not going to pretend I know anything yet. But give me some time and I'll get there. Improved terminal performance over factory offerings is the only goal though. I'll get there.
- DAA
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"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter
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DAA
Utah/Promoted WESTERN REGIONAL Hunt Director
Member # 11
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posted October 02, 2016 06:37 PM
Heavier and denser should have been denser and harder than lead...
- DAA
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"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter
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knockemdown
Our staff photo editing Guru, par excellence
Member # 3588
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posted October 03, 2016 05:25 AM
Cool stuff, Dave!
Once a tinkerer, always a tinkerer...
Least ya don't hafta turn necks on those hulls!
Posts: 2202 | From: behind fascist lines | Registered: Mar 2010
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booger
TOO BIG TO FAIL
Member # 3602
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posted October 03, 2016 12:42 PM
Dave,
If I may ask, what equipment did you get? Did you have trouble getting the T shot? Does it come in 25# bags like the other shot?
I have a MEC 650 progressive loader, and I have given some thought to setting it up for 3" loads, which I can do.
I have literally loaded 30,000+ 7/8 to 1 1/8 ounce, 2 3/4" loads when I was shooting sporting clays competitively, but have had some interest in doing some 3" loads with the price of Hevi Shot the way it is.
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If we ever forget we are one Nation Under God, then we will be a nation gone under--Ronald Reagan
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DAA
Utah/Promoted WESTERN REGIONAL Hunt Director
Member # 11
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posted October 03, 2016 01:22 PM
Don't mind at all!
I picked up a Mec Sizemaster from the local classified ads. I wanted a single stage (progressive wouldn't really work for my application), and had my eyes open for a deal on a 600 Jr., which would have satisfied my needs just fine. When this like new Sizemaster came up at a price within my range I jumped on it.
I don't actually need the extra features of the Sizemaster, for what I'm currently doing. But who knows, someday I might.
As I mentioned earlier, loading the Hevi-shot, or any tungsten based shot, is a true hand loading proposition. And I'm using new, primed hulls, not actually "reloading" anything (nor do I really ever intend to, not for serious hunting ammo - I'll probably always start with new hulls).
The only thing I used the press for, was crimping. Didn't even use it to seat wads. I suppose if I wanted to get a roll crimping tool and use roll crimping data, I actually would not need the Mec press at all.
I bought 12 lbs of T shot from the guy who has been mentoring me on this enterprise. He's in California and can't use lead anymore anyway - I picked up a lot of my components from him in one fell swoop. Before I had even found a press. But, T shot is readily available online from a lot of sources. I haven't checked, but I bet Midway even has it? I've seen it mostly in 8 lb and 10 lb jugs.
Here is one source and this is the brand I am using: BPI Lead T shot.
I hand loaded the T shot the same way I did the HS BB. I don't claim to know, but have read and been advised to weigh or count pellets when loading buckshot. Again, the press just not even used. The T might meter okay, with the right bushing? Not sure. But I was adding buffer as well, another step just not done on the press.
I have some Nickel Plated F shot that I'm most interested in experimenting with too. I'll be comparing it directly to the Fed. Premium 41 pellet count #4 buck loads. I'm hoping I can find improved terminal performance with the F via higher pellet count at higher velocity. Will be playing with it in two flavors initially. A 1-1/2 oz. load that has the same 41 pellet count as the Fed. #4 buck load, but at 300 fps faster velocity than the Fed. load. The F is smaller at .220 vs. .240 for the #4 buck, but at 1400 fps vs. 1100 fps, I think the nickel plated F might have the edge. Or, I'm also going to try a 1-3/4 oz. load of the F at 1260 fps. That gives both a higher pellet count advantage, at 48 or 49 for the F vs. 41 for the #4, along with a solid 150 fps velocity advantage.
If, and I can't stress enough that this is pure "if", for me, at this point. But, if one of those nickel plated F loads shows an edge on the Fed. #4 buck load, I'll be pretty happy with myself. As I can load them for under $1 each (the T shot, since I got a good deal on it, are about 60 cents each). And, more to the point, I'll just be happy to have eked out an edge by loading my own. And just plain having fun with it. Which at the end of the day, is all I'm doing.
Keeps me out of the bars .
- DAA
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"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter
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Kokopelli
SENIOR DISCOUNT & Dispenser of Sage Advice
Member # 633
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posted October 03, 2016 02:32 PM
DAA;
Welcome to the world of shotgun stands.
It's kinda cool to have them close enough in the brush to see their facial expression change from 'rabbit' to 'uh-oh'.
Take this for what it's worth.............
Try to remember why you're using a shotgun in the first place.
Usually, it's for a pattern on a close moving target.
However........chokes and loads can be developed that will roll a coyote out around 60 yards and beyond. Rich Cronk developed some pretty impressive long range loads.
The problem (actually there are two) with a 60 yard pattern is that at the close distance you brought the shotgun along for in the first place, the pattern is really small and easy to miss with.
The other problem is that if you miss a coyote at 20 yards, someone will be along to witness it and they will tell everyone about it at least twice.
Good luck & remember to have fun.
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And lo, the Light of the Trump shown upon the Darkness and the Darkness could not comprehend it.
Posts: 7583 | From: Under a wandering star | Registered: Apr 2005
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DAA
Utah/Promoted WESTERN REGIONAL Hunt Director
Member # 11
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posted October 03, 2016 06:10 PM
Koko, right now I'm not trying to extend the range. Just hoping for better lethality at normal range via higher pellet counts and larger but denser patterns.
That HS BB load is a good example. 71 pellets of harder and heavier than lead shot. With an Imp or Mod I'm hoping to just hose them down at under 50 yards. But it won't be as deadly as #4 buck at longer range.
- DAA
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"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted October 04, 2016 06:00 AM
Damn! That sounds interesting! But, why not recycle what hulls you can pick up? That's one thing, apparently I am programed to grab an empty before it hits the ground? With brass, and not autoloaders.
I can't use lead in The People's Republic? When did that happen? Damn, this place sucks! 200 years of lead shot scattered all over the place, (ask any metal detector fella) and so far, the only mental degrading is among Liberals.
Good hunting. El Bee
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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UTcaller
NEVADA NIGHT FIGHTER
Member # 8
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posted October 04, 2016 07:41 AM
I actually went back to the Hornady BB's in my gun too. I like the higher pellet count. And 99% of the coyotes we're shooting at with a shotgun seem to be 50 yards and under. I think there are 76 pellets in 1 1/2 oz. Load and they have a control wad to get a great pattern with my Modified choke tube. And they don't break the bank. I think they run about 15 bucks for 10 shotshells.
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Lone Howl
Free Trial Platinum Member & part-time language police
Member # 29
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posted October 04, 2016 08:36 AM
Ahhhh.....the good old days...lead bullets..lead shot..reasonably priced ammo...clean kills etc.
Mark
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When tyranny becomes law, rebellion becomes duty.
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DAA
Utah/Promoted WESTERN REGIONAL Hunt Director
Member # 11
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posted October 04, 2016 10:47 AM
Chad, I ought to try and get a handful of these Hevi-shot BB loads to you. You'll probably get a chance to try them before I will and I'd like to get your honest opinion on how they work for you anyway.
They are heavier than lead, so not quite as many pellets in the 1-1/2 oz. payload as the Hornady BB load. But they are WAY harder than lead. Supposed to penetrate better and break bones a helluva lot better because they are hard enough to not flatten out on a bone.
Leonard, please keep in mind, I don't have any real experience yet and don't really know what I'm talking about. Just repeating what I read and more than that what I hear from a couple guys I respect. But the hulls are cheap. I got a killer deal on the ones I'm using, but even at full price they are only 15 cents each. I put zero work into them, they aren't like my precious wildcat brass that I practically have individual relationships with each and every piece . But what I've read and heard, is the crimp is a really critical part of getting consistent, top performance from a shotshell. And that the crimp can/does degrade, even if only slightly, every time it gets re-used. For what I'm calling "serious hunting ammo", I'll gladly pay the 15 cents for a brand new already primed hull just for the peace of mind I'm doing everything I can to make it the best ammo it can be.
But, to reiterate... I really don't know what I'm talking about.
- DAA
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"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted October 04, 2016 12:58 PM
Well, you know. Dave, you have said a couple times you don't really need the press except for the crimp.
I just had a flash. Remember back in the old days, I did my first reloading for my 270 with a Lee Loader. Pretty simple, except it didn't account for necks lengthening, etc.
But, not my point. I think you can get a Lee loader for shotshells? That might be interesting?
Good hunting. El Bee
edit: first one I watched:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=trhZGSwbil
Be warned, this guy is a Chatty Cathy and his camera is not positioned properly but you get the idea.
[ October 04, 2016, 01:13 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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UTcaller
NEVADA NIGHT FIGHTER
Member # 8
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posted October 04, 2016 01:58 PM
Dave that's damn nice of you to offer that up. I know how expensive the shot is. I do have a box of Hevishot T shot and also a box of Hevishot B shot that I need to shoot up first. But please let me know how they shoot. And I would definitely give you some cash to load me up some. I did shoot the Hevishot Dead Coyote T shot loads alot before they went up so high in price and they really do kill coyotes well out to 70 yards.
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Paul Melching
Radical Operator Forum "You won't get past the front gate"
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posted October 04, 2016 02:34 PM
I have killed several at 75 yards with the Hevi- Shot t shot from dead coyote. Haven't hunted much since I got sick but my son in law loaded me up some 3" with # 4 buck we'll see , getting cool here will be hunting soon ! Dave having fun is the most important part trust me on that !
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Those who value security over liberty soon will have neither !
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted October 05, 2016 08:04 AM
I'm still wondering about "lethal" in a Dead Coyote shell? Is it T shot, right? For some reason I question everything BBB all of it stacked against #4 Buck or maybe #1, although I haven't tried it?
I can't prove #4 Buck can kill a coyote at 75 yards because I never tried it? Anybody? One thing I can say is: DEAD COYOTE is the hardest kicking shell I have ever fired! (never shot a 10 gauge) I also can't afford to shoot coyotes I will throw under a bush, with shells that cost $6 a shot! They ain't THAT GOOD!
For quite a few years, I used to depend on Federal 2 oz. BB's, but mostly from the truck, at night, at very close range. Then one night, I tried to kill a second one who was on the way out, and it just spanked him. Then somebody mentioned #4 Buck and I was all ears.
The first coyote I killed with #4 Buck was just as the sun was coming up and I could see all the gore spread out on a creosote bush behind where the coyote lay. With the glare of the sunrise at just the right angle directly in line with the bush, it was magnificent! That's what I want, the goo all spread out like garland on a Christmas Tree!
Good hunting. El Bee
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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DAA
Utah/Promoted WESTERN REGIONAL Hunt Director
Member # 11
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posted October 05, 2016 09:01 AM
My first go round was with Dead Coyote T and Fed. Premium #4 buck. All 3" 12 gauge. Dead Coyote choke, had pattern tested both loads and they were plenty tight at 40 yards.
I had heard, for years, that if you hit them with a shotgun and they still look alive, shoot them again else they just might figure out they ain't dead yet and start to vacate.
So... That was EXACTLY what I did. I started out with the 870 loaded with Dead Coyote, then #4, then DC, then #4. But because of the way you have to unload and reload that pump, and throwing in a couple shots here and there, I soon lost all track of which shell was being used for any given shot.
Anyway... Very tiny sample. One day, a few coyotes for me a couple for my partner. Mixture of DC and #4 buck. But every coyote I shot, was definitely still alive after being hit so I shot them again. One of the ones Tim shot, actually got away after being hit.
Now... Every coyote I shot, WAS knocked down. But they were still more than just twitching on the ground so I shot them again immediately just on GP. One did actually get back up while I was trying to get turned back around after recoil had spun me, I ended up shooting that one three times.
Talking to some shotgunners, afterwards... I'd been shooting for center chest. Several guys advised that they shoot for the head on a coyote with a shotgun, when feasible.
And then, my friend who has been so helpful in this shotgun hand loading stuff, sent me a care package of exotic hand loaded shells. Quite a few varieties. Stuff you mostly can't buy anymore, or if you can it's so expensive it makes you're eyes water (shot that costs $50 a pound!).
I'm being long winded. Bad habit. Sorry...
Anyway... One of the loads he sent was a 1-1/2 oz. payload of Federal Heavyweight #2's. Federal hasn't made this shot for quite awhile, they never offered a 1-1/2 oz. load anyway, but can't get this shot anywhere anymore. But it's 15gr./cc, which is a full 36% denser than lead and 25% denser than Hevi-shot. And harder than steel shot. Some bad ass BB's! Little buggers though, #2's look tiny next to #4 buck. 90 pellets per shell.
My friend assured me that due to the incredible density, these little #2's would have the downrange energy to penetrate and break bones and kill at distance all out of proportion to their size. And having 90 of them per shell, out of a modified choke, a substantial cloud of them would be in the air.
Okay, being SUPER long winded. I really need to tighten up the text...
But I took those hand loaded 15g./cc #2's out and killed five coyotes with them. I did try for the face where feasible, too. All five were instant kills. Like a good chest expanding thump with a centerfire. They all went straight down and were dead when they hit the ground, best as I could tell. Furthest one was 45 yards, running hard right to left, I was surprised I even hit it, honestly. No fancy head shooting on that one either, I'm nobodies shotgun whiz...
Very small sample. I still have practically zero experience. Don't honestly think I know anything yet. Just doing a lot of thinking, is all. But seeing how devastating those high pellet count loads of heavier than lead shot were on those coyotes, it sure got my attention!
I "think", there is real potential for real increased lethality at normal ranges, with higher pellet counts, over the #4 buck. And, if you wanted to spend the money on the exotic shot, extending the range too. With 18g./cc shot, which is available if you want to spend the money, you could expect to penetrate and kill coyote for just as far as you could get a pattern to hold together.
But, I think that's a bit of a fools errand. If you figure on 60+ yard shots, you really ought to figure on having a rifle? And, even though the shot will penetrate, you do still need to solve the problem of getting a pattern to hold together that far away. With, even if you do, now your shotgun isn't going to be very shotgunny at normal distances.
And, by keeping my focus on normal ranges (at least for now?), I think I can get where I want to be without spending the crazy money on exotic shot.
But, we'll see. Like Paul said, it's just about the fun factor. I have fun working out this kind of stuff.
- DAA
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"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter
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Leonard
HMFIC
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posted October 05, 2016 10:07 AM
Lotta truth there. You will learn to keep an eye on shotgunned coyotes. The dead ones will fool you. I remember one time, this was at night and my son killed a coyote with my 835 which we always keep handy for those ones that bust out of cover and are on top of you without warning. That's the thing, at night, you almost always have warning, but still. Example, sometimes you are ready to break it down and retrieve dead coyotes, then a late arrival will liven things up, so it's always nice to have that "shottie" handy, with the slide pulled back half way.
Anyway, never trust a dead coyote. That dead one, I totally forgot about him and I was working the light when I swung back and there was a coyote, standing stock still and staring at me. So I got partners attention in a panic but in another 30 seconds, that coyote started to wobble and I realized it was the dead one came back to life, but f or a minute or so, he looked perfectly alert and ready to bolt.
Yes, head shots are supposed to be "der rigor" or however it's spelled. But, I guess I'm not that good, center of mass is good enough for me. I remember standing up and walking up a dead coyote, shot him four times with #4 buck. But it was through brush so who knows? I killed a passer a couple years ago, swung through and let off just when he was passing behind a large prickly pear. It was especially lucky for me that I had grabbed some double 00 Buck by mistake and surprised me because I never saw him get away. Sure as hell, he rolled over and fell in a ditch, plenty dead, although he could have fussed for quite a while because I just played out the stand, and had to walk by the cactus, so checked it out. That was pure luck.
Dave, it's not a crime to get windy. I do it, occasionally.
Good hunting. El Bee
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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Lone Howl
Free Trial Platinum Member & part-time language police
Member # 29
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posted October 05, 2016 10:39 AM
Dave, if your talking about Bob in CA..hes got the goods for sure. Hes done a lot of experimentation with this stuff, at great expense, fo sho.
In my opinion, you have the exact right idea and are headed in the right direction for sure. I love #4 buck, and T shot, but have shot a LOT of 3" (lead) BB's over the years and have a real soft spot for pellet count. HTL BB's...so much the better.
Personally, I always try to shoot them in the face when I can..running or not. Sometimes they are dead, sometimes it takes a double (or more!). Less of this, imho, takes place with HTL shot. Whatever it takes, is what it takes.
I do feel though, that some, or maybe a lot, of it is simply my shooting..no matter the load....especially on running coyotes. Reaction time... shot spreading...coyote running..angles...heart pounding...your already playing the odds...and they are getting worse every yard. Theres always an argument for bigger pellets, more pellets, more power or whatever. I could use a 10 gauge but I aint gonna. You have to reach a happy place for you.
The shotgun thing for me, for coyotes, is mostly for added fun, but I do call in areas where it's just really practical. And you know, I just dont worry about real long range...I mean if I have a clear 75 yards where Im calling, I probly have a rifle in my hands. Or if I have the shotty and I cant quite get them into range...so be it. I am a recreational caller and had my fun. Calling is the challenge for me. The whole long range shotgunning thing was, and still is, WAY OVERHYPED imo. Thanks Hevi Shot.
Cats and fox...I mostly am calling in REAL tight brushy, hilly country in the daytime...and prefer a shotgun almost exclusively. This is where I thoroughly enjoy a shotgun for predators, no question.
And in the end, we overthink it. Shooting a coyote with a shotgun! Who cares?
Mark
[ October 05, 2016, 10:49 AM: Message edited by: Lone Howl ]
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When tyranny becomes law, rebellion becomes duty.
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Lone Howl
Free Trial Platinum Member & part-time language police
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posted October 05, 2016 10:51 AM
Goddammit...now I want to experiment with some shotshell reloading.
Mark
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When tyranny becomes law, rebellion becomes duty.
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DAA
Utah/Promoted WESTERN REGIONAL Hunt Director
Member # 11
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posted October 05, 2016 12:31 PM
Mark, yup, Bob M. Good, good guy. Has been a tremendous help to me in getting going on this. Saved me from a lot of expensive missteps. Through his pure generosity I was able to get going faster and cheaper on this than I'd have ever guessed possible.
But, at the same time, I can BLAME him, too. He really set the hook in me. As far as getting all excited to start hand loading shotshells and playing with this stuff. It's all good though. I am having fun. And I'm only half joking when I say it keeps me out of the bars .
- DAA
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"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter
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Moe
Knows what it's all about
Member # 4494
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posted October 15, 2016 07:34 PM
I shot tournament trap for a lot of years and shot a 500 round case of shells every week for practice. I've loaded thousands and thousands of shot shells.
My only comment here is that those crimps look super fine to me. I always use the same crimp that came from the factory. 6 or 8 point.
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I snatch kisses. And vice versa.
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DAA
Utah/Promoted WESTERN REGIONAL Hunt Director
Member # 11
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posted October 16, 2016 05:50 AM
Thanks Moe! If they look good to you, I'm sure not going to worry about them.
Wish my schedule wasn't so full. I still haven't used any of my hand loaded shotgun ammo and won't for at least another three weeks.
Got Hevi-shot BB, lead T and nickel plated F all queued up and ready to try.
- DAA
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"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter
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