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Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on October 02, 2016, 02:23 PM:
Yesterday I made my first attempt at loading shotshells.
First 20 are 3", 1-1/2 oz. of Hevi-shot BB, listed at 1375 fps.
Was not totally satisfied with those crimps, but they'll work fine. Second batch was another 20 of 3", 1-1/2 oz. lead T shot, listed at 1400 fps. The crimps turned out better, I didn't bother taking another picture though ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
.
I picked up all the equipment and components at bargain prices. Bought the press used at 1/3 cost of new. Got a great deal from the guy who has been helping me sort things out as I get going on the T shot and the new primed hulls. He also pointed me at a great price on the Hevi-shot BB.
Anxious, but it will probably be a while anyway, before I can get out and see how they pattern and try them on coyotes.
Have ideas on other things I'd like to try. But the stuff is expensive and the cookie jar is trying to bite my hand off right now. So it will be awhile before I get to any those too.
Figured if I'm going to start making some shotgun stands, I may as well jump in and start hand loading them though.
Neither one of the above combinations is available in a factory load. That is my primary motivation, being able to load specifically for coyote.
Saving money ain't part of the deal. Getting setup and then stocking components is expensive. Would have been cheaper just to buy Fed. #4 buck and a box of Dead Coyote once in awhile. Not near as much fun though .
- DAA
Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on October 02, 2016, 03:32 PM:
Sweet Dave. Hope they group well for you. Will definitely be a coyotes worst nightmare. ![[Cool]](cool.gif)
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on October 02, 2016, 05:34 PM:
You shame me!
I "should have" loaded shotshells a long time ago. I guess the reason is, my motivation on rifle has always been accuracy and tailoring a load for my specific rifle.
It's hard to get excited about 36" patterns. Mostly, it's terminal performance that I pay attention to and I have never had any complaints with the performance of #4 Buck. All I have to do is hit them somewhere that slows 'em down.
Bearing in mind, Dave, that you will likely catch some ridicule from Victor Carlson for GROUND SLUCING coyotes! Apparently, that's a no no, down by McNeal? Be warned.
Good hunting. El Bee
edit: oh! did you load some granulated filler?
[ October 02, 2016, 05:36 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on October 02, 2016, 06:36 PM:
Leonard, the T shot loads I did use buffer if that's what you mean by filler. The HS BB loads used a pinch of actual filler on top of the shot to bring the level up a hair for crimping.
Loading heavier and denser than lead shot is true hand loading. Everything weighed, hands on labor intensive assembly etc. The only thing the loading press was used for is the crimps.
I'm the newest of noobs. Not going to pretend I know anything yet. But give me some time and I'll get there. Improved terminal performance over factory offerings is the only goal though. I'll get there.
- DAA
Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on October 02, 2016, 06:37 PM:
Heavier and denser should have been denser and harder than lead...
- DAA
Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on October 03, 2016, 05:25 AM:
Cool stuff, Dave!
Once a tinkerer, always a tinkerer...
Least ya don't hafta turn necks on those hulls!
Posted by booger (Member # 3602) on October 03, 2016, 12:42 PM:
Dave,
If I may ask, what equipment did you get? Did you have trouble getting the T shot? Does it come in 25# bags like the other shot?
I have a MEC 650 progressive loader, and I have given some thought to setting it up for 3" loads, which I can do.
I have literally loaded 30,000+ 7/8 to 1 1/8 ounce, 2 3/4" loads when I was shooting sporting clays competitively, but have had some interest in doing some 3" loads with the price of Hevi Shot the way it is.
Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on October 03, 2016, 01:22 PM:
Don't mind at all!
I picked up a Mec Sizemaster from the local classified ads. I wanted a single stage (progressive wouldn't really work for my application), and had my eyes open for a deal on a 600 Jr., which would have satisfied my needs just fine. When this like new Sizemaster came up at a price within my range I jumped on it.
I don't actually need the extra features of the Sizemaster, for what I'm currently doing. But who knows, someday I might.
As I mentioned earlier, loading the Hevi-shot, or any tungsten based shot, is a true hand loading proposition. And I'm using new, primed hulls, not actually "reloading" anything (nor do I really ever intend to, not for serious hunting ammo - I'll probably always start with new hulls).
The only thing I used the press for, was crimping. Didn't even use it to seat wads. I suppose if I wanted to get a roll crimping tool and use roll crimping data, I actually would not need the Mec press at all.
I bought 12 lbs of T shot from the guy who has been mentoring me on this enterprise. He's in California and can't use lead anymore anyway - I picked up a lot of my components from him in one fell swoop. Before I had even found a press. But, T shot is readily available online from a lot of sources. I haven't checked, but I bet Midway even has it? I've seen it mostly in 8 lb and 10 lb jugs.
Here is one source and this is the brand I am using: BPI Lead T shot.
I hand loaded the T shot the same way I did the HS BB. I don't claim to know, but have read and been advised to weigh or count pellets when loading buckshot. Again, the press just not even used. The T might meter okay, with the right bushing? Not sure. But I was adding buffer as well, another step just not done on the press.
I have some Nickel Plated F shot that I'm most interested in experimenting with too. I'll be comparing it directly to the Fed. Premium 41 pellet count #4 buck loads. I'm hoping I can find improved terminal performance with the F via higher pellet count at higher velocity. Will be playing with it in two flavors initially. A 1-1/2 oz. load that has the same 41 pellet count as the Fed. #4 buck load, but at 300 fps faster velocity than the Fed. load. The F is smaller at .220 vs. .240 for the #4 buck, but at 1400 fps vs. 1100 fps, I think the nickel plated F might have the edge. Or, I'm also going to try a 1-3/4 oz. load of the F at 1260 fps. That gives both a higher pellet count advantage, at 48 or 49 for the F vs. 41 for the #4, along with a solid 150 fps velocity advantage.
If, and I can't stress enough that this is pure "if", for me, at this point. But, if one of those nickel plated F loads shows an edge on the Fed. #4 buck load, I'll be pretty happy with myself. As I can load them for under $1 each (the T shot, since I got a good deal on it, are about 60 cents each). And, more to the point, I'll just be happy to have eked out an edge by loading my own. And just plain having fun with it. Which at the end of the day, is all I'm doing.
Keeps me out of the bars .
- DAA
Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on October 03, 2016, 02:32 PM:
DAA;
Welcome to the world of shotgun stands.
It's kinda cool to have them close enough in the brush to see their facial expression change from 'rabbit' to 'uh-oh'.
Take this for what it's worth.............
Try to remember why you're using a shotgun in the first place.
Usually, it's for a pattern on a close moving target.
However........chokes and loads can be developed that will roll a coyote out around 60 yards and beyond. Rich Cronk developed some pretty impressive long range loads.
The problem (actually there are two) with a 60 yard pattern is that at the close distance you brought the shotgun along for in the first place, the pattern is really small and easy to miss with.
The other problem is that if you miss a coyote at 20 yards, someone will be along to witness it and they will tell everyone about it at least twice.
Good luck & remember to have fun.
Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on October 03, 2016, 06:10 PM:
Koko, right now I'm not trying to extend the range. Just hoping for better lethality at normal range via higher pellet counts and larger but denser patterns.
That HS BB load is a good example. 71 pellets of harder and heavier than lead shot. With an Imp or Mod I'm hoping to just hose them down at under 50 yards. But it won't be as deadly as #4 buck at longer range.
- DAA
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on October 04, 2016, 06:00 AM:
Damn! That sounds interesting! But, why not recycle what hulls you can pick up? That's one thing, apparently I am programed to grab an empty before it hits the ground? With brass, and not autoloaders.
I can't use lead in The People's Republic? When did that happen? Damn, this place sucks! 200 years of lead shot scattered all over the place, (ask any metal detector fella) and so far, the only mental degrading is among Liberals.
Good hunting. El Bee
Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on October 04, 2016, 07:41 AM:
I actually went back to the Hornady BB's in my gun too. I like the higher pellet count. And 99% of the coyotes we're shooting at with a shotgun seem to be 50 yards and under. I think there are 76 pellets in 1 1/2 oz. Load and they have a control wad to get a great pattern with my Modified choke tube. And they don't break the bank. I think they run about 15 bucks for 10 shotshells.
Posted by Lone Howl (Member # 29) on October 04, 2016, 08:36 AM:
Ahhhh.....the good old days...lead bullets..lead shot..reasonably priced ammo...clean kills etc.
Mark
Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on October 04, 2016, 10:47 AM:
Chad, I ought to try and get a handful of these Hevi-shot BB loads to you. You'll probably get a chance to try them before I will and I'd like to get your honest opinion on how they work for you anyway.
They are heavier than lead, so not quite as many pellets in the 1-1/2 oz. payload as the Hornady BB load. But they are WAY harder than lead. Supposed to penetrate better and break bones a helluva lot better because they are hard enough to not flatten out on a bone.
Leonard, please keep in mind, I don't have any real experience yet and don't really know what I'm talking about. Just repeating what I read and more than that what I hear from a couple guys I respect. But the hulls are cheap. I got a killer deal on the ones I'm using, but even at full price they are only 15 cents each. I put zero work into them, they aren't like my precious wildcat brass that I practically have individual relationships with each and every piece . But what I've read and heard, is the crimp is a really critical part of getting consistent, top performance from a shotshell. And that the crimp can/does degrade, even if only slightly, every time it gets re-used. For what I'm calling "serious hunting ammo", I'll gladly pay the 15 cents for a brand new already primed hull just for the peace of mind I'm doing everything I can to make it the best ammo it can be.
But, to reiterate... I really don't know what I'm talking about.
- DAA
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on October 04, 2016, 12:58 PM:
Well, you know. Dave, you have said a couple times you don't really need the press except for the crimp.
I just had a flash. Remember back in the old days, I did my first reloading for my 270 with a Lee Loader. Pretty simple, except it didn't account for necks lengthening, etc.
But, not my point. I think you can get a Lee loader for shotshells? That might be interesting?
Good hunting. El Bee
edit: first one I watched:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=trhZGSwbil
Be warned, this guy is a Chatty Cathy and his camera is not positioned properly but you get the idea.
[ October 04, 2016, 01:13 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on October 04, 2016, 01:58 PM:
Dave that's damn nice of you to offer that up. I know how expensive the shot is. I do have a box of Hevishot T shot and also a box of Hevishot B shot that I need to shoot up first. But please let me know how they shoot. And I would definitely give you some cash to load me up some. I did shoot the Hevishot Dead Coyote T shot loads alot before they went up so high in price and they really do kill coyotes well out to 70 yards.
Posted by Paul Melching (Member # 885) on October 04, 2016, 02:34 PM:
I have killed several at 75 yards with the Hevi- Shot t shot from dead coyote. Haven't hunted much since I got sick but my son in law loaded me up some 3" with # 4 buck we'll see , getting cool here will be hunting soon ! Dave having fun is the most important part trust me on that !
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on October 05, 2016, 08:04 AM:
I'm still wondering about "lethal" in a Dead Coyote shell? Is it T shot, right? For some reason I question everything BBB all of it stacked against #4 Buck or maybe #1, although I haven't tried it?
I can't prove #4 Buck can kill a coyote at 75 yards because I never tried it? Anybody? One thing I can say is: DEAD COYOTE is the hardest kicking shell I have ever fired! (never shot a 10 gauge) I also can't afford to shoot coyotes I will throw under a bush, with shells that cost $6 a shot! They ain't THAT GOOD!
For quite a few years, I used to depend on Federal 2 oz. BB's, but mostly from the truck, at night, at very close range. Then one night, I tried to kill a second one who was on the way out, and it just spanked him. Then somebody mentioned #4 Buck and I was all ears.
The first coyote I killed with #4 Buck was just as the sun was coming up and I could see all the gore spread out on a creosote bush behind where the coyote lay. With the glare of the sunrise at just the right angle directly in line with the bush, it was magnificent! That's what I want, the goo all spread out like garland on a Christmas Tree!
Good hunting. El Bee
Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on October 05, 2016, 09:01 AM:
My first go round was with Dead Coyote T and Fed. Premium #4 buck. All 3" 12 gauge. Dead Coyote choke, had pattern tested both loads and they were plenty tight at 40 yards.
I had heard, for years, that if you hit them with a shotgun and they still look alive, shoot them again else they just might figure out they ain't dead yet and start to vacate.
So... That was EXACTLY what I did. I started out with the 870 loaded with Dead Coyote, then #4, then DC, then #4. But because of the way you have to unload and reload that pump, and throwing in a couple shots here and there, I soon lost all track of which shell was being used for any given shot.
Anyway... Very tiny sample. One day, a few coyotes for me a couple for my partner. Mixture of DC and #4 buck. But every coyote I shot, was definitely still alive after being hit so I shot them again. One of the ones Tim shot, actually got away after being hit.
Now... Every coyote I shot, WAS knocked down. But they were still more than just twitching on the ground so I shot them again immediately just on GP. One did actually get back up while I was trying to get turned back around after recoil had spun me, I ended up shooting that one three times.
Talking to some shotgunners, afterwards... I'd been shooting for center chest. Several guys advised that they shoot for the head on a coyote with a shotgun, when feasible.
And then, my friend who has been so helpful in this shotgun hand loading stuff, sent me a care package of exotic hand loaded shells. Quite a few varieties. Stuff you mostly can't buy anymore, or if you can it's so expensive it makes you're eyes water (shot that costs $50 a pound!).
I'm being long winded. Bad habit. Sorry...
Anyway... One of the loads he sent was a 1-1/2 oz. payload of Federal Heavyweight #2's. Federal hasn't made this shot for quite awhile, they never offered a 1-1/2 oz. load anyway, but can't get this shot anywhere anymore. But it's 15gr./cc, which is a full 36% denser than lead and 25% denser than Hevi-shot. And harder than steel shot. Some bad ass BB's! Little buggers though, #2's look tiny next to #4 buck. 90 pellets per shell.
My friend assured me that due to the incredible density, these little #2's would have the downrange energy to penetrate and break bones and kill at distance all out of proportion to their size. And having 90 of them per shell, out of a modified choke, a substantial cloud of them would be in the air.
Okay, being SUPER long winded. I really need to tighten up the text...
But I took those hand loaded 15g./cc #2's out and killed five coyotes with them. I did try for the face where feasible, too. All five were instant kills. Like a good chest expanding thump with a centerfire. They all went straight down and were dead when they hit the ground, best as I could tell. Furthest one was 45 yards, running hard right to left, I was surprised I even hit it, honestly. No fancy head shooting on that one either, I'm nobodies shotgun whiz...
Very small sample. I still have practically zero experience. Don't honestly think I know anything yet. Just doing a lot of thinking, is all. But seeing how devastating those high pellet count loads of heavier than lead shot were on those coyotes, it sure got my attention!
I "think", there is real potential for real increased lethality at normal ranges, with higher pellet counts, over the #4 buck. And, if you wanted to spend the money on the exotic shot, extending the range too. With 18g./cc shot, which is available if you want to spend the money, you could expect to penetrate and kill coyote for just as far as you could get a pattern to hold together.
But, I think that's a bit of a fools errand. If you figure on 60+ yard shots, you really ought to figure on having a rifle? And, even though the shot will penetrate, you do still need to solve the problem of getting a pattern to hold together that far away. With, even if you do, now your shotgun isn't going to be very shotgunny at normal distances.
And, by keeping my focus on normal ranges (at least for now?), I think I can get where I want to be without spending the crazy money on exotic shot.
But, we'll see. Like Paul said, it's just about the fun factor. I have fun working out this kind of stuff.
- DAA
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on October 05, 2016, 10:07 AM:
Lotta truth there. You will learn to keep an eye on shotgunned coyotes. The dead ones will fool you. I remember one time, this was at night and my son killed a coyote with my 835 which we always keep handy for those ones that bust out of cover and are on top of you without warning. That's the thing, at night, you almost always have warning, but still. Example, sometimes you are ready to break it down and retrieve dead coyotes, then a late arrival will liven things up, so it's always nice to have that "shottie" handy, with the slide pulled back half way.
Anyway, never trust a dead coyote. That dead one, I totally forgot about him and I was working the light when I swung back and there was a coyote, standing stock still and staring at me. So I got partners attention in a panic but in another 30 seconds, that coyote started to wobble and I realized it was the dead one came back to life, but f or a minute or so, he looked perfectly alert and ready to bolt.
Yes, head shots are supposed to be "der rigor" or however it's spelled. But, I guess I'm not that good, center of mass is good enough for me. I remember standing up and walking up a dead coyote, shot him four times with #4 buck. But it was through brush so who knows? I killed a passer a couple years ago, swung through and let off just when he was passing behind a large prickly pear. It was especially lucky for me that I had grabbed some double 00 Buck by mistake and surprised me because I never saw him get away. Sure as hell, he rolled over and fell in a ditch, plenty dead, although he could have fussed for quite a while because I just played out the stand, and had to walk by the cactus, so checked it out. That was pure luck.
Dave, it's not a crime to get windy. I do it, occasionally.
Good hunting. El Bee
Posted by Lone Howl (Member # 29) on October 05, 2016, 10:39 AM:
Dave, if your talking about Bob in CA..hes got the goods for sure. Hes done a lot of experimentation with this stuff, at great expense, fo sho.
In my opinion, you have the exact right idea and are headed in the right direction for sure. I love #4 buck, and T shot, but have shot a LOT of 3" (lead) BB's over the years and have a real soft spot for pellet count. HTL BB's...so much the better.
Personally, I always try to shoot them in the face when I can..running or not. Sometimes they are dead, sometimes it takes a double (or more!). Less of this, imho, takes place with HTL shot. Whatever it takes, is what it takes.
I do feel though, that some, or maybe a lot, of it is simply my shooting..no matter the load....especially on running coyotes. Reaction time... shot spreading...coyote running..angles...heart pounding...your already playing the odds...and they are getting worse every yard. Theres always an argument for bigger pellets, more pellets, more power or whatever. I could use a 10 gauge but I aint gonna. You have to reach a happy place for you.
The shotgun thing for me, for coyotes, is mostly for added fun, but I do call in areas where it's just really practical. And you know, I just dont worry about real long range...I mean if I have a clear 75 yards where Im calling, I probly have a rifle in my hands. Or if I have the shotty and I cant quite get them into range...so be it. I am a recreational caller and had my fun. Calling is the challenge for me. The whole long range shotgunning thing was, and still is, WAY OVERHYPED imo. Thanks Hevi Shot.
Cats and fox...I mostly am calling in REAL tight brushy, hilly country in the daytime...and prefer a shotgun almost exclusively. This is where I thoroughly enjoy a shotgun for predators, no question.
And in the end, we overthink it. Shooting a coyote with a shotgun! Who cares?
Mark
[ October 05, 2016, 10:49 AM: Message edited by: Lone Howl ]
Posted by Lone Howl (Member # 29) on October 05, 2016, 10:51 AM:
Goddammit...now I want to experiment with some shotshell reloading.
Mark
Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on October 05, 2016, 12:31 PM:
Mark, yup, Bob M. Good, good guy. Has been a tremendous help to me in getting going on this. Saved me from a lot of expensive missteps. Through his pure generosity I was able to get going faster and cheaper on this than I'd have ever guessed possible.
But, at the same time, I can BLAME him, too. He really set the hook in me. As far as getting all excited to start hand loading shotshells and playing with this stuff. It's all good though. I am having fun. And I'm only half joking when I say it keeps me out of the bars .
- DAA
Posted by Moe (Member # 4494) on October 15, 2016, 07:34 PM:
I shot tournament trap for a lot of years and shot a 500 round case of shells every week for practice. I've loaded thousands and thousands of shot shells.
My only comment here is that those crimps look super fine to me. I always use the same crimp that came from the factory. 6 or 8 point.
Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on October 16, 2016, 05:50 AM:
Thanks Moe! If they look good to you, I'm sure not going to worry about them.
Wish my schedule wasn't so full. I still haven't used any of my hand loaded shotgun ammo and won't for at least another three weeks.
Got Hevi-shot BB, lead T and nickel plated F all queued up and ready to try.
- DAA
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on October 16, 2016, 05:55 AM:
Yes, I agree with that! For the first hand loaded shot shells, I think they look beautiful. I have seen reloads before and they sometimes look gnarly. Crimp needs glue or pellets fall out the hole in the middle, stuff like that. In other words, they "look" reloaded, but Dave's look fine, to me.
If somebody would send me that Lee Loader, I'd be willing to try it myself. By the way, where do you get those wads or the plastic shot holder, or don't they use one, unless it's birdshot? I'm especially stupid about shotshells.
Good hunting. El Bee
PS Man, the Dodgers really got their ass kicked last night. Pray for them, today!
Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on October 16, 2016, 07:52 AM:
Leonard, so far I've gotten all the components that didn't come in the package deal I got from Bob from BPI. Another source is Precision Reloading.
Well, now that I think about it, I got the Hevi-shot BB from Natchez, too.
Most of the stuff is available from all the usual sources. But loading buckshot or large size heavier than lead shot is a little bit specialized. The two sources above cater to more specialized shot shell hand loading.
Main thing, is have a recipe or two in mind before ordering anything, so you only order the stuff you know you are going to use.
In the package I bought from Bob, he included at least some of every single component I'd need to load 3" 1-1/2 oz. heavier than lead stuff. Along with detailed instructions and pictures to help me get started. So I oould really get my head around not just what I needed, but how it actually all fit together and why I needed so many different components to load one recipe. And, it was a tad bit more complicated than that, even. For instance, I have to trim the wads by hand and trim mylar wraps by hand - you can't even buy components right off the shelf that are "just right" for that particular load.
It's a super versatile, killer load though, good for just about any 1-1/2 oz. payload of heavyweight shot up to 15gr./cc.
I got my Mec cheap enough, it's not a big deal and I can get my money back selling it easy enough.
But having started actually doing it, and realizing that truly I only use if for crimps and nothing else, I might have tried to go even cheaper. But look around at your local used market, online classifieds or whatever. I was seeing used Mec 600's going for about $50 and they have the exact same crimper as my Mec Steelmaster (which I paid $80 for). I've heard that Lee tool does nicer crimps though?
So far, the most expensive shells I've loaded are the HS BB at about $1.50 each, and even those, are super bargain priced for what they are. Similar factory waterfowl loads go for Dead Coyote prices. And, those are only "similar". There aren't any factory loads with the 1-1/2 oz payload in a 3" shell that I'm loading.
The lead T's at $0.60 per shell or the NP F's at $0.90, I'm just not going to feel bad about cutting loose with. The few times I was using that Dead Coyote stuff, I was acutely aware that I was shooting $5 bills at coyotes!
Which, BTW... You could load HW13 T shot, which should be a bit better than the Hevi-shot T in Dead Coyote, for a little under $3 a copy. Still quite expensive, but a lot less so than DC, and it should be a better shell with more penetration as the HW13 is more dense than Hevi-shot.
I might spring for a ten pound bag of HW13 T shot next year. Maybe. Not anytime soon though.
All that money talk aside though, you generally have to buy components in batches large enough that you/I may never actually use them all up. The total outlay to get started, even scrounging deals like I have, I'll have to shoot an awful lot of shotgun shells at coyotes before I break even. Honestly don't ever expect to. So, in reality, I'm not saving any money. But I'm having fun! And I'm going to have ammo I couldn't get any other way and it's going to out perform factory offerings in certain aspects. That might not be as true for a waterfowl guy, tons of factory stuff to choose from there. But hardly any factory choices for coyote. And to repeat myself, I'm having fun!
- DAA
Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on October 16, 2016, 08:04 AM:
A money driven decision/event you might appreciate...
Tim was running my 870, with of course my ammo. It was full of Dead Coyote at $5 per copy.
He had already made two bad hits on a coyote. It hadn't really gone anywhere yet, lot of spinning and what not. But it was still looking way lively.
I'm sitting 40 yards away with my .17 watching all this go down and when that coyote was still spinning and buck jumping after the second (poor) hit, and I heard that 870 racking another one... I panicked a bit, realizing Tim had already spent $10 worth of ammo on that coyote and was about to be into it another $5! I jumped up and shouldered my .17 on it and finished it before he could get that last round off. Purely motivated by the cost of Dead Coyote shells!
Kind of cool shot though. Coyote was literally in midair doing a full somersault. Spinning ball of fur in midair. Tim said from where he sat it was just about the coolest looking hit on a coyote he ever saw. And he's seen a few!
- DAA
Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on October 16, 2016, 08:06 AM:
Oh, and you know I ain't the praying type... But yeah, even though I turned my back on baseball long ago, still have a soft spot for the Dodgers. Will think my best thoughts for them .
- DAA
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on October 16, 2016, 11:26 AM:
I get what you are saying. I pissed away $150 on Hold em, a couple weeks ago, big deal.
But, I am completely tuned in to the thought of Tim blasting ten dollars worth of YOUR Dead Coyote, and the reality kicks in, never mind that you get a bounty. It's a ridiculous thing, five bucks a shot, but when he is using your shotgun and your shells, suddenly you see that on a certain level, IT IS HARD TO JUSTIFY.
I have a similar situation with my son. He cannot afford to hunt, truth be known, so I subsidize, food, drink, gas and other stuff. Hell, I load his cartridges because I can't get him to do it! I say, you really need to do some loading for this trip. He says, how many do I have? I say 7 or 8. He ponders it and says (shrug); that's enough. He wears camo that must be at least twenty years old, and looks it! But, he's a good partner, and we all know how much that is worth.
When I hunted with Pat, money and splitting expenses was automatic, never talked about it, just never a problem, not an issue. But, when I hunt with my son, I pay for everything. He buys beer, and drinks it. Then, by the time I get thirsty, mid afternoon, too bad, it's all gone! That's when I regret not drowning him, as a pup. (I'm just kidding)
Back on subject, how do they possibly justify $54 for a box of 10 Dead Coyote shells? Then, there's 8% sales tax....$4.32 more. Eek!
Another rant, sorry folks
Good hunting. El Bee
Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on October 16, 2016, 12:05 PM:
Its a tough deal for me. I truly love the Dodgers but I find myself pulling for the Cubs due to the longevity of there World Series drought. 1908 is a damn long time and if they have a shot at it this is probably the year. But like I said I love the Dodgers .
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on October 16, 2016, 02:13 PM:
I'm a little conflicted, as well. All I can say is, if they beat my team, I will root for them, enthusiastically. When all is said and done, the National League plays REAL baseball, and I always want them to win. Designated hitter? WTF? The way it simplifies what should be MAJOR strategic decisions is mind boggling!
Good hunting. El Bee
Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on October 16, 2016, 02:40 PM:
Very true Leonard in that situation it is truly opposite strategy. Best hitter vs Worst hitter senerio.
Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on October 16, 2016, 07:18 PM:
Well the Dodgers pulled it out. Man Kershaw pitched well.
Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on October 16, 2016, 10:32 PM:
Does Tommy Lasorda still wear that uniform that's two sizes too small ???
I don't watch much sports.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on October 17, 2016, 05:19 AM:
Yes, and he still bleeds Dodger Blue! Lasorda is a treasure.
Kershaw pitching, he shuts them out. The night before, it's the whole bullpen and the Cubs score 8 runs off them. Anybody still think the game isn't about pitching? (he also got a base hit)
Baseball, a legit game. Fuck the NFL!
Good hunting. El Bee
Posted by booger (Member # 3602) on October 17, 2016, 07:27 AM:
Koko and LB,
Don't want to hi-jack the shotshell thread, but since Lasorda was brought up, though I would share a story.
Mitch Webster is a local Central Kansas boy that played for a number of MLB teams, and ended up spending the last 5 or 6 years of his career as an outfielder for the Dodgers. He lived 2 houses down from me in the off-season.
His father in law is a banker friend of mine, and also a neighbor.
Mitch is now a scout for the Dodgers, and had 2 of the cutest little girls I have seen. Their grandpa, my friend, told his granddaughters they needed to give 'Uncle Tommy' a hug everytime they saw him, because he was 'daddy's boss'.
Well, I guess they did, and I heard Tommy loved it! Guess he is a true gentleman and a great guy!
Thought I would share...now back to shotshells...
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on October 17, 2016, 10:53 AM:
Thanks for that, Booger, but we don't recognize the term, "hi-jack" around here. Any thread that goes to a second page will have several off topic posts and nobody apologizes for it.
Okay, anybody got a good Dodger shot shell story?
Good hunting. El Bee
Posted by Brent Parker (Member # 4354) on October 19, 2016, 06:55 AM:
I have heard the thoughts on Heavi shot being to expensive but till I see something that kills as well or better to 50 or so yards I am going to stick with it. I bought two more boxes of Dead Coyote T and want to try the Dead Coyote #4 Buck. Those two boxes of Dead Coyote produced 18 dead coyotes at 100.00 a piece. Not a bad return. I am planning to buy a mec reloader after this fur season. I am interested on how the nickel shot F works out for DAA. I think it might be the ticket.
Brent
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on October 19, 2016, 07:28 AM:
They make Dead Coyote #4Buck? I didn't know that? I bet it takes a real He Man to touch those off?
I just can't imagine needing more than the Winchester DoubleXX 3" #4Buck? I don't know how to explain it but how much more dead is dead? At 40 yards, anyway? If they get to fifty and beyond, I'm frustrated, but defeated, but I'm not wasting a shell on what I fully expect will be a cripple. That's why, in a contest, I pack a rifle and a shottie. Works for me.
Getting $100 for coyotes? That's pretty dang good incentive. You got a good deal going there, Brent!
Good hunting. El Bee
Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on October 19, 2016, 08:43 AM:
Yes they do. I still have a box of the 4 buck dead coyote. I used to put a couple of the 4 buck dead coyote shells in the magazine first followed by a T shot shell. Then a T shot shell in the barrel,so the first couple shots were T shot then if I needed the 4 buck for a longer shot they were there. Worked great unless your first shot was a far shot.lol
And as far as the cost of the dead coyote goes, I used to justify it by thinking a double on coyotes here in Utah would buy me 2 boxes of dead coyote shotshells. With the bounty money that is.
[ October 19, 2016, 08:47 AM: Message edited by: UTcaller ]
Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on October 19, 2016, 08:55 AM:
I'd never ask anyone to justify any expense related to this stuff. If it works, you have fun with it, make money off it, just sleep better at night knowing you have Dead Coyote on the shelf, it's all good as far as I'm concerned.
As I've mentioned, there's no way I can justify the cost of getting into hand loading, not really. But I'm doing it and glad of it.
I have some stuff in mind I'm going to try eventually that will cost more to hand load, than Dead Coyote shells cost off the shelf. Got too may irons in the budget fire already though. Saving my pennies for a new shotgun, for one thing, and going to need to get quite a few barrels threaded for suppressors one of these days too. So the e$pen$ive exotic hand loaded shot shells are just going to have to wait, probably a full year. Ought to be fun and interesting when I finally get in a position to play with them though.
- DAA
Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on October 19, 2016, 09:14 AM:
This might be interesting for some.
So what you are looking at is a little table I put together using data from the KYP shotgun ballistics program I bought. The loads listed are the hand loads I've assembled so far and some of the factory ammo I have used.
The "3.7" Gel Yards" column needs explaining. The program calculates penetration in ballistic gel. Bob M., based on his experiences with many types of factory ammo on coyotes and looking at the penetration data, came up with that 3.7" number. He feels it's the minimum needed for killing penetration on coyote. I'm just running with it.
A couple of caveats need to be considered when looking at those penetration yardages though. For one, just because a load has killing penetration at 80 yards doesn't mean you have any pattern left at all, or should be shooting that far or have any hope of doing any good. So, for me, I figure anything 60 yards or better, should be plenty and any more than that is not necessarily going to be useful.
Another thing, it does not take into account how much better Hevi-shot and the like is at breaking bones and breaking down coyote. My own limited experience and what I hear from many others, Hevi-shot breaks down coyote a good bit better than lead. So, for instance, my Hevi-shot BB load, is only good for 63 yards of penetration, compared to 72 yards for the lead T. But, I'm betting the Hevi-shot BB breaks down coyote within reasonable shotgun distances at least as well and most likely better than the lead T does.
Anyway... There is some interesting bench racing you can do, looking at this kind of data. Good for conversation. How it actually patterns and most importantly actually kills in the field is what really matters and some of this data, while interesting, might prove not very relevant? In the real world?
Still, I think it's interesting.
Posted it mainly in response to Brent mentioning the nickel plated F. Take a look at the 1-3/4 oz load, compared to Dead Coyote T. And while I said I don't expect anyone to justify what they spend, and I mean that, still, do keep in mind I can load that NP F for just under $1 per shell and that includes the one time use of a brand new hull. Only 2 fewer pellets, same penetration distance. The Hevi will in reality out penetrate the NP F, no doubt. But, with an 80 yard potential, I'm thinking the NP F is going to penetrate PLENTY good enough, at normal distances.
Compare that 1-3/4 oz. F to the Fed. Prem. #4 buck, too. Not as much penetration, but again, it should be plenty just the same. but 8 more pellets, should mean a denser more lethal, easier to hit with pattern than the #4 buck.
I'm anxious to do some pattern testing and coyote killing with that load!
It interests me too, that had I not done this kind of research, I'd have probably sallied forth to try a 1-1/2 oz. load. But after running the numbers, I see no potential advantage for it vs. good old Fed. #4 buck.
Look at that Hevi-shot BB load, too. Those run me $1.50 each. Other than the fact I got my lead T shot for under market price and can load that 1-1/2 oz. load for $.0.60 each, I really see no reason to even mess with the lead T, when I have 20 pounds of the Hevi-shot BB on the shelf. Presuming that 63 yard penetration is all I can hope to utilize, and that the load patterns well, having 71 pellets vs. 51 for the lead T 1-1/2 oz. load, the Hevi BB is the clear winner on paper. And the 1-3/4 oz. lead T is a non-starter.
- DAA
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on October 19, 2016, 12:25 PM:
Makes my head spin, is what it does! That's a very interesting chart.
There are probably a bunch of variations we could dick around with, but that #4Buck still looks good to me. You have the pellet diameter which means the pellet count will be smaller but look at who has the best GEL penetration!
I don't guess it matters that much on head shots anyway? Maybe the velocity means/indicates that there is "drop" to consider, as in holdover.
But what exactly is the magic behind Dead Coyote? I need to check, but the couple boxes I have, I assumed they are T shot?
Also, where is there a handy chart that compares the diameter of all those alphabet loads with the numerical stuff? I think #4 is 25 caliber?
Seems like I heard a while back that supposed innovation with the 3 1/2" 12 gauge shells has pretty much made 10 gauge not worthwhile? Yes? No?
Good hunting. El Bee
edit: as far as this question of justifying the cost, as mentioned by DAA. I guess I have been squawking as much as anybody, and like I'm not one to talk anyway. I'm an idiot where the rubber hits the road, no rational at all. When it comes to guns and hunting and all that crap, I could hardly be called a tightwad.
[ October 19, 2016, 12:32 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on October 19, 2016, 04:59 PM:
Leonard, the shot sizes are:
BB - .18
T - .20
F - .22
#4B - .24
Variations in batches are common though. So what you actually get, might be a bit off, one way or the other. The lead T shot I have, for example. I have not actually measured it. But the fact I'm only getting 51 pellets out of 1-1/2 oz. indicates the batch I have is a bit oversize. Being less dense than the Hevi-shot T in Dead Coyote, there should actually be more pellets for the same payload, but there isn't. From what I hear, such variations are not uncommon.
The magic in Dead Coyote is that it's Hevi-shot, not lead. Denser, so it carries more energy downrange than lead. Harder, so it maintains it's roundness instead of flattening out like lead and penetrates deeper and breaks bones better. From what little I've seen firsthand and all I hear, it breaks bone quite a bit better. Also, being harder and not suffering flattening from setback on ignition, it patterns better too.
In tests several guys have done, shooting catalogs and plywood and such, even the Hevi-shot BB, penetrates better than lead #4 buck. That's why I say, you have to apply some caveats to the gel penetration distances. Quite useful for comparing Hevi to Hevi, or lead to lead, but not so useful for comparing Hevi to lead.
The really expensive TSS shot, I mentioned earlier, but which isn't in the chart above, is significantly denser and harder than Hevi-shot. A full 50% more dense than Hevi-shot. It carries energy and penetrates like crazy.
When I eventually get around to ponying up the cash to play with some, I'll be loading #2 and #4 shot (not #4 Buck, but little itty bitty #4 shot!). Here's a chart that includes the TSS (and HW13, a less expensive exotic also superior to Hevi-shot, compare the HW13 T load to the DC load).
These loads will cost about $5.50 each to hand load. But will out perform Dead Coyote by a considerable margin - depending, of course, on what your performance criteria are. But to put it in the perspective of the chart above, the #2's will have 80 pellets in a 1-1/2 oz. load and a gel penetration distance of 115 yards. Almost 30 more pellets than Dead Coyote and way more penetration. The #4's will have a whopping 124 pellets and an 80 yard penetration. Same penetration as DC, but 124 vs. 51 pellets. Out of an improved or modified choke, they ought to be just a cloud of death on coyote under 50 yards.
I just won't be in a position to play with TSS for quite awhile. And it will be more of a "just because I have to try it", than expecting to make it a staple. But, for a fella that is paying DC money now, it offers a slightly more expensive but potentially even more effective alternative.
- DAA
Posted by Moe (Member # 4494) on October 19, 2016, 08:20 PM:
One thing to consider when reloading for a pump or semi auto shotgun is the brass at the base. I reloaded dove, duck and goose loads for my old Rem 1100 and never had a problem but I only reloaded shells shot in my tight chambered Perazzi MX8 or from my 1100.
Because of my health I've stopped hunting birds but for the past 20 years I've ordered waterfowl loads by the case from Macs Prairie Wings. For coyote stuff I've ordered the Winchester 1 1/2" #4 buckshot loads from the Sportsman's Guide. I get some grief for shooting the 3 1/2" shells rather than the 3". They kick like an SOB but with 54 pellets they're solid killers. And they're not expensive like the Dead Coyote stuff. Back when it was legal I killed a lot of honkers with #4 buck. Great for pass shooting.
I've been a Dodgers fan as long as I can remember but this time I'm rooting for the Cubs. When I lived in Alaska the weather was awful. Snow on the ground, cold, freezing rain. We'd just gotten satellite TV and part of the package was WGN and they showed the Cubs games with guys in the bleachers with no shirts drinking beer and they played on green grass. I owe then for that.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on October 20, 2016, 05:42 AM:
I don't know? Just as soon as we settle down and accept five bucks a pop for Dead Coyote, the sales pitch on TSS is: only fifty cents more but look at the performance at 80 yards!
I still say, what about a miss on a runner @ 80 yards, I have no idea what kind of patterns I would get at that distance, and patterning with shells that cost $5.60 if I hand load them, DAMN!
If I'm going to sit somewhere that I can roll a coyote at 80 yards, what the hell am I doing with a shotgun?
I'm sure I am missing something, and higher velocity, denser shot, more pellet count, all those things appeal to the bean counter in me, but FUCK!
I just might decide to economize and buy the cheaper stuff....which is Dead Coyote factories! Than bother with custom shit? This is what happens when you get acclimatized to five dollar shot shells.
I still think, yes all the above charts are really amazing, it's like driving my Ferrari to the Walmart for a 12 pack. It's a nice ride, and all that, but the Kia gets the job done, as well.
Ground Sluicing coyotes @ $5.60X2, (allowing for a little more leade) is eventually going to break the bank for those of us that don't be compensated $50 or $100 per each.
I'm thinking I might just lay down for a while, until my motivation goes away?
But, it sure sounds good! Might as well go all in and order the Perazzi?
Good hunting. El Bee
Posted by Moe (Member # 4494) on October 20, 2016, 07:48 AM:
When Susan and I were first married my mother in law bought me a few boxes of Dead Coyote shells for a birthday gift so I took them to eastern Oregon and did some calling. In most GMUs during the deer and elk season you can only use a shotgun, no rifle.
I had a decent day with 5 coyotes but I lost at least 3 more that ran off into the heavy sage after being hit solid with the Dead Coyote. Oh, I'm sure they died but I never found them. One coyote was only about 35 yards and when the shot hit him he was tossed head over ass and hit the ground. He then got to his feet and ran off.
I have a problem with the super hard shot since it penetrates and doesn't transfer its energy by expanding. Best you can hope for is to hit a vital organ and drop them where they stand or they're going to run off and bleed to death in the bushes.
When I shoot a coyote I automatically shoot a second time. With the Dead Coyote stuff it doubles the price of a kill.
As for me I don't care what an advertisement says. I won't shoot at a coyote at 80 yards with a shotgun.
Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on October 20, 2016, 08:10 AM:
I dunno ................ thinking out loud, here.
Most of my coyotes are shot between 20 and 40 yards.
At those yardages, plain old 3" copper plated lead BB seems to kill them dead enough if I keep my head on the stock and out of my ass.
So the only advantage to the mega- $$$ ammo is the occasional shot out around > 50 yards ??
Anything closer with the high dollar ammo is just wasted coin and horsepower.
For me, it's just not worth the extra expense for something that is usually not needed.
YMMV
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on October 20, 2016, 08:20 AM:
Well, apparently, we are peeling back the various components of the issue.
What I had not considered, before reading the above post, is that I always assumed I had an option. But, if there is only one way, then I guess I would have to go all in, the best damned custom load I could assemble.
But since we have a choice, until Hillary starts with her Executive Orders, I think the rifle is a bit more versatile. (yes, I'm starting to get very depressed)
Really now, would God allow this Bitch to become president? It's hard to believe?
Sudden thought, executive action banning Heavy shot, TSS shot, any diameter over/above BB? Or, am I being silly? Don't put anything past this evil bitch.
Good hunting. El Bee
Posted by Moe (Member # 4494) on October 20, 2016, 09:13 AM:
I fear the same thing. I couldn't believe that Obama could ever be elected but he was. The evidence of voter fraud was overwhelming but it didn't seem to matter. In this cycle I'm seeing articles in what I always thought were conservative sites and publications that are trying to debunk voter fraud because Trump mentioned it.
The world has turned upside down and I believe this is our last chance to right it. If Hillary wins we'll be stepping into that thousand years of darkness Reagan told us about.
If the Republicans had spent as much effort fighting Obama as they have fighting Trump we wouldn't be haing this conversation.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on October 20, 2016, 10:18 AM:
That's what I don't get? Apparently, they are comfortable being the permanent minority party? All they want is a job in Washington, then they get a swell retirement package. I don't think they actually want to win, on the National level?
Now, if only Libertarians made any sense, at all? But, we are locked into a two party system and there is no room for a serious third party. Those people are wasting their time and everybody else's time.
It's just like baseball. People say, what's the big deal? It's either going to be a fastball or a curve. The people that say that are ignorant. There are so many variations that those two pitches expand to at least nine different distinct pitches, and you never know what you are going to see, and it always depends on the COUNT and whether the pitcher is a righty or a southpaw. Same goes for which side of the plate the batter stands at.
So, every candidate has his own set of policies, maybe half of them coincide with the party that they claim to be a member of. But they all have a position on health care, foreign policy, ways to fix social security, the national deficit, birth control and abortion, and none of them fit like a cookie cutter.
In other words, there are many ways to be a Republican and not a lot of differences between any garden variety Democrat, since they have party discipline and move in socialist lockstep. Unfortunately.
This year, the Chicago Cubs, perennial losers still have a chance to go to the World Series in (what)? 100 years, or so? Trump doesn't have anywhere near that good of a chance, only because he can't keep his mouth shut. He's what a friend of mine used to say about his ex-wife; she's a crazy maker!
Trump is a fucking crazy maker. I'm not too optimistic, at this point that he won't avoid a huge embarrassment.
Good hunting. El Bee
Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on October 20, 2016, 10:34 AM:
If the Republicans had spent as much effort fighting Obama as they have fighting Trump we wouldn't be haing this conversation.
That is the the most accurate statement I have heard this election cycle.....
Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on October 30, 2016, 01:53 PM:
Did some pattern testing with my loads this morning. Shot three loads through three chokes each.
Using my 870 Express, at 40 yards. Shooting standing up on my hind legs. Wind was howling.
Circles are 10". Drawn around the densest part of the pattern after the shot. Figure I'll treat pattern density and getting it centered on point of aim as separate issues.
So, this little chart again. I think it helps put everything into move complete context.
Skipping right to the chase, the 1-3/4 oz. NP F shot with a Dead Coyote choke was the clear winner of the day.
That's 27 pellets in the 10" circle. 45 pellets hit the 24"x24" backer. There are 49 pellets in the load. So, 55% of the pellets in a 10" circle at 40 yards, that should rug out a coyote pretty good!
For comparison, I shot some Fed. Prem. #4 buck through the same gun and choke a few years ago and only got an average of 8 pellets in a 10" circle for 3 shots at 40 yards. That same day, Dead Coyote with the same choke averaged 14 pellet strikes. Not apples to apples, as I was shooting at a ringed target and counting pellet strikes within a 5" radius of point of aim. And it was a different day, etc. Will need to shoot four or five of each in the same session sometime for a fair comparison.
And, I know, one shot, hardly qualifies as data. Need to shoot at least three, five would be better, and see what the shot to shot variation is like. But, for a variety of reasons, that wasn't the plan today. One shot of each load and each choke was all I was good for this time.
Still, that load is showing some real promise!
This was the best pattern with 1-1/2 oz. of Hevi-shot BB, with a Rem. Turkey Extra Full extended choke. With 32 out of 72 (44%) in the 10" circle it also looks like a coyote killer. I noticed this load does hit low, compared to the others though.
And this was as good as I could do with 1-1/2 oz. of lead T shot, with the DC choke. With 18 of 51 pellets in the circle (35%) I think it's the least impressive of the three loads, but still a definitely serviceable coyote load.
Next up, hopefully, will be killing a few coyotes with each .
- DAA
Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on October 31, 2016, 04:37 AM:
Really cool & informative to see how Dave's comprehensive rifle testing procedures translate to a shotgun...
Thanks for sharing & adding to the knowledge base of all of us!
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on October 31, 2016, 05:25 AM:
Well, I have a question.
That ten inch circle is determined how? You just kinda eyeballed the most pellets and drew a pattern? 'Splain me, why 10 and not 11, or 9? The black disc, I assume is the aimimg point?
This is so scientific, stuff, and all. From what I gather, Moe is a shotgun person, he might provide me some answers to why this and that?
Good hunting. El Bee
Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on October 31, 2016, 06:03 AM:
Because the paper plate I had was 10".
- DAA
Posted by Moe (Member # 4494) on November 02, 2016, 06:27 PM:
Standard circle for patterning a shotgun is 30" Aiming point, if that's what you want to call it, is center everything within the circle constitutes your pattern. Standard patterning is done at 30 yards. Depending on what I'm shooting for waterfowl I keep my shots at or under 35 yards. Back when it was legal I used #4 buckshot for honkers. I once killed one at 75 measured yards after missing it twice when it was closer. I was a kid, what can I say?
I've never killed a coyote with a shotgun over 35 yards out with any size shot and I've killed a lot of coyotes with a shotgun. I use #4 buck exclusively.
Now, I'm not saying that a coyote can't be killed farther out but as your shot travels through the air the pattern gets smaller and smaller and a lot of the shot slows down to a speed that isn't lethal. I've seen what shotgunners call The Golden BB that miraculously hits a bird or animal in a vital spot and kills it but we're supposed to be sportsmen. Wounding critters and causing them to suffer isn't in my makeup.
And on that subject, magnum loads give you more shot. They DO NOT give you longer range. Magnum, loads make your patterns denser making surer kills at reasonable ranges.
There are a lot of people out there that don't understand shotguns or shotgun shells. The more pellet strikes you get the more likely to make the kill.
Eastern Oregon has some varied country to call. Some of the sagebrush is thick. Unfortunately that's where the most coyotes are found. A shotgun is pretty much required. Either that or a guy with shooting skills far beyond mine with a rifle. I prefer using a rifle for calling and I've been lucky enough to have carried a rifle out on what should've been a shotgun stand and killed running coyotes at like 10 yards with the rifle but I would be the first to say it was pure luck.
[ November 02, 2016, 06:40 PM: Message edited by: Moe ]
Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on November 03, 2016, 04:41 AM:
Thanks for the input Moe!
I used to be a pretty good rifleman. Tens of thousands of rounds expended on running jackrabbits, and at one time, I honestly thought running coyotes seemed awful big and slow and easy to hit. Those days are long gone forever now though. I sometimes have trouble hitting them when they are sitting still anymore. Runners, I still roll one up now and then, but now it feels like luck?
Anyway... I took up the shotgun specifically for making "shotgun stands". Thick stuff I've just been passing by for years, knowing it held coyote, but not wanting to mess with it. It started to pay off immediately. Have killed about ten coyotes this fall on stands I'd not have made at all, without a shotgun.
I'll probably make some effort at carrying both rifle and shotgun in the more open stuff I usually call, to have a bail out option for kamikazes, too. But I haven't done that yet.
On the 30" patterns though, I don't know, new to all this. But I just don't see much use for the waterfowl mindset when all I'm ever going to shoot is coyote. And mostly with buckshot, probably never using any shot smaller than BB.
I'm wanting to see how many pellets a load is likely to put on a coyote at a given distance. To that end, an 8" circle would probably be more realistic. But he paper plate is ubiquitous and convenient. The visual I get with the 10" circle serves my information needs well enough I think. And, the 2x2 backer I made seems about right too, for seeing what the "whole pattern" is doing. Anything that isn't even hitting a two foot square, is way beyond mattering, for coyote hunting. No golden BB hopes here .
It's all just a learning curve for me though. If I could have it all, I'd want a nice wide pattern for hitting close in runners in the brush, but center dense enough to still put 10 pellets in the front half of a coyote at 50 yards. And all that, with enough penetration to break down a coyote going straight away at 40 yards. Can't have it all though, so I'm just testing to see just what I can have. Then make my best guess as to which will work best for me in what situations.
- DAA
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on November 03, 2016, 05:36 AM:
Might you consider the turkey method? Seems like they want a super tight choke for those head shots? From what I have gathered, a 10" paper plate pattern is inadequate, at 40 yards? Maybe you want a wider spread for moving targets whereas the turkey hunter is usually aiming at a stationary target.
I can't help thinking that all those pellets striking all over the 2X2 are sort of wasted?
I had a vague concept that buckshot was not Kosher on waterfowl but I didn't know it might be illegal?
We have to remember that the pattern is not a flat disc, that the pellets are spread out laterally like a swarm of bees. Shotgunning is a black art, not suitable for civilized types.
I think Dave is being very modest as to his shooting ability. I'd put him right up there with Victor and Cal Taylor. And, my old partner Pat. Pat and I always had supreme confidence in the other's ability. If I wasn't shooting, I knew with certainty that he had the situation under control and seldom missed. It's rare to have a partner you can count on, but those named above, along with a couple others are excellent shots on game, in my book.
For some, they are blessed from childhood, just take to it naturally. Others, like myself, I had to learn it, OJT. And, for me, it involved deliberate movements and calm, best I can explain it.
Good hunting. El Bee
Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on November 03, 2016, 09:33 AM:
Leonard, I think for our purposes, the shot swarm may as well be two dimensional. It's moving so fast, in relation to ourselves and the coyote.
There is no way we can influence the pattern by how fast we swing the shotgun. If we could swing a barrel fast enough to do that we'd make a sonic boom.
Likewise, there is no way a coyote can "run into" a "shot string" that is passing by in front of him. Again, if a coyote could run fast enough to do that they would make sonic booms.
I've never been a shotgunner. But have heard this kind of stuff all my life and never had any reason not to believe it. But once I started to dig into shotgun stuff for myself, I quickly recognized that there is some straight up nonsense that gets passed around. But it only takes about two minutes looking at the data and thinking about it to realize how totally impossible that stuff really is.
No black art. Just some old wives tales .
- DAA
Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on November 07, 2016, 06:49 AM:
First kill with my handloads. The 1-3/4 oz. nickel plated F load was used.
Wasn't even a "shotgun stand". But I was horny to try out my loads on a coyote and Tim had us covered with the rifle. I posted out in front of the caller. Got this very big, very old male at 38 yards as it started to turn away to leave. Dropped him in his tracks and was dead when he hit the ground, best as I could tell.
That really is a BIG coyote, for my areas, too. I mean, like less than one out of a hundred I kill is that size.
I'm going to call it a success ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
.
- DAA
Posted by Moe (Member # 4494) on November 07, 2016, 07:30 AM:
That really is a big coyote. Nice.
Nickel plated shot keeps the shot from deforming when being shot through a shotgun barrel making your patterns denser and more effective. It also penetrates better. Copper plated shot doesn't do that an is mostly hype.
Ever notice that target loads have low brass and hunting loads have high brass? Although the pressure are about the same guys are fooled into thinking the high brass loads are better. Shotshell makers put that high brass on their shells to fool people. I used to reload Winchester AA low brass loads with 1 1/2 oz of #6 lead shot for hunting ducks.
Also, high base and low base has nothing to do with the effectiveness of a shotgun shell. It just means the shell either has a high or low base wad inside. People are fooled by terms.
Leonard....When I said I used #4 buck for pass shooting honkers I meant when lead shot was legal for waterfowl. There were some places where it was illegal, like some refuges, because of its range and weight. Even now some refuges limit the size shot you're allowed to use.
Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on November 07, 2016, 09:05 AM:
Nice Coyote Dave. Gotta love those Big Desert Coyotes...
Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on November 07, 2016, 11:23 AM:
Beauty!
Sounds like you got the performance you were lookin' for...
Bet that felt good to see him drop like a sack o' taters!
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on November 08, 2016, 08:05 AM:
Before I read the words, I could tell that was a big dog!
You know, over the years, in our club, we always kept records on largest animal, cats, coyotes, fox, badger, etc. I am sure we never weighed a 40 pound coyote, but an occasional 36/38 pounder.
Almost all the really big coyotes that I have seen come from northern Nevada, although a few could have been south-eastern Idaho, or south-eastern Oregon, but basically influenced by that upper tier border area of northern Nevada. A few big ones come out of the Owens Valley and a few in northern Arizona....although I killed a very big coyote down around Oracle Junction probably twenty years ago, could have gone 37-38pounds.
And, I'm a pretty fair judge of weights like that because I always carried the official scale, and it's a good one not a crappy electronic scale that goes teats up when you need it.
I used to read a lot of articles by Jack O'Connor when I was young, and of course, when I was able bought a 270W, of course. One thing I always remembered that he said: The Big Ones Look Big
What he meant by that was when you actually eyeball a big one, there is very little doubt what you are looking at, a trophy animal.
I have found that to be true....although far be it, for me to validate Jack O'Connor.
Thanks for posting Dave!
Good hunting. El Bee
edit: what the hell kind of digital camo pants is that, Dave?
[ November 08, 2016, 08:08 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on November 08, 2016, 02:19 PM:
Leonard, those are Kuiu Attack pants. Don't know what they call the camo, or if it's any good, but I sure like the pants. Very comfy. Water resistant. But dry out fast when they do get wet. Breathable. Warmer than jeans when it's cold, but for some reason they also seem cooler when it's hot? Sounds impossible so maybe it's just my imagination. Or, maybe it's the material they are made out of and they really are?
Regardless, they ARE some dang fine hunting britches!
And, "yup". I knew the second I saw that coyote coming he was a bruiser. Just like you just said, the really big ones, LOOK big. He looked big. And no ground shrinkage. When I walked up to him, I said "Holy Shit!". Carried him to the road, Tim had gone back for his truck. When he pulled up and saw him, he said "Holy Shit!".
Weighed him, too. Been carrying a 50lb fishing scale for years and years. Almost never use it, anymore. But a long time ago, like, 15 years ago? I weighed almost every one we killed for a couple of years. Just curious. Like the couple years I inspected stomach contents on all of them.
Anyway... I don't have to guess, I know exactly how much he weighed and I won't make anyone guess. 39 lbs 11 oz.
Not the biggest I ever killed, but top ten for sure and he's top five of the ones I have actually weighed. The biggest I ever actually weighed, was 44 lbs. Have killed a couple I think were in the same league, but didn't actually weigh, so can't say for sure.
It's almost humorous, by how much the average guy over estimates the weight of an average coyote though.
- DAA
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on November 09, 2016, 06:52 AM:
" Kuiu Attack pants." Damn, Dave. You are becoming quite the trend setter!
Oh, my condolences to your wife. You know, the one that wouldn't piss on Trump if he was on fire?
Sorry, couldn't help it. She'll get over it. He couldn't do worse than Barry.
Good hunting. El Bee
Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on November 09, 2016, 07:10 AM:
Nah, she'll never "get over it".
She never thought what's his face had any chance, or any illusions that her vote matters. But Trump is always going to be a festering sore of a worthless scum not worthy of drawing breath, in her eyes.
She has her reasons. I'd feel the same way, in her shoes. Hell, I very little use for the shit bag, myself.
SCOTUS is all I cared about or hoped for in this election. Seems like a miracle that we got here. I'll take it!
Beyond SCOTUS, I expect Trump to be a terrible president. But, hey, the shit bag has surprised me at almost every turn on his way to the Whitehouse, maybe he'll pleasantly surprise me and actually figure out how to be an effective president? Sure would be nice.
No Hillary is a Big Win though. No matter how you slice it.
BTW... I'm betting the GOP does not repeal Obamacare. They get paid by the insurance companies same as the democrats do...
- DAA
Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on November 09, 2016, 07:32 AM:
LOVE those Kuiu Attack pants! Have an old beater pair for coyote calling, they gots a few tears from fence crossings & whatnot. And got a newer pair in the same (VERDE) camo as Dave's, for big game hunting. The Verde seems to hide real well in a variety of terrain, look how Dave's pants get lost against that grassy/sage...
With a set of merino base layers, Attacks will keep ya warn into the single digits, assuming normal activity to/from stand. IMHO, well worth the coin...
Posted by Lone Howl (Member # 29) on November 09, 2016, 08:08 AM:
I have some as well. Very comfortable. I have several pieces of Kuiu gear and really like it.
Mark
Posted by Brent Parker (Member # 4354) on November 12, 2016, 02:02 PM:
Dave,
I haven't been keeping up with this thread. It really looks like that F shot may really be the ticket. I am running a Benelli M1 and my backup or loaner is an 870 Wingmaster. The performance seen in your first coyote makes me hopeful that it will be an alternative to Dead Coyote.
I have a friend that convinced me to switch over to Dead Coyote He bought an 870 Wingmaster 30" barrel full choke right out of college in '78 and the thing has almost no blueing left and all the finish has been worn off the stock. He shoots a lot of coyotes,fox and bobcats with it. His go too load is #4 buck hevi shot for coyotes and cats and #2 duck hevi shot 2 3/4 for fox. He switched to hevi shot after loosing 3 bobcats one day. Stated he has never lost a single animal since switching to hevi shot. I am sure if he could find an alternative load that was as effective and cheaper he would in a quick minute. After this fur season I plan to buy a shotshell reloader and would like to pick your brain about the F shot load you have been using. Your pattern looks great at 40. Have you checked it yet at 50?
Keep up the good work and whack a few more.
Brent
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on November 13, 2016, 06:22 AM:
Brent, every time I start thinking I can stretch a shotgun to 50 yards, that's when a guy starts losing 3 cats in one day. What with brush being the biggest reason for shot to miss the mark, and other unknowns, I have been known to get up and charge the critter so as to make sure he's within 40 yards, or there abouts?
Of course, in my early days, I suffered with Fed 3" 2 oz copper plated BB's and they aren't very forgiving, if you know what I mean? Leaves a lasting impression on limitations. That's when #4 Buck, which I didn't even know existed, somebody offered that little nugget and I have been fairly happy, since.
Now, if #4 Buck is available in Hevi shot, and it doesn't cost five bucks a shell, I may be interested, but not for drilling them at 50 yards. I can't get into that attitude. If a man were to spend considerable coin doing patterns with various chokes, and find that more open chokes produce better, counterintuitively, $50/$100 Bucks later, that man may reinvent the wheel and find a load that consistently and convincingly and positively kills in the 50 yard neighborhood, it would be worth it. I guess? Was that a "run on sentence", or what?
I'm just not a fan of long range shotgunning, so I hope you fellas get it all sorted out and get the word out for us lazy types because it would shore be appreciated!
Good hunting. El Bee
edit: just remembered that Paul Melching volunteered a while back that he was killing coyotes at insane distances? Refresh us, please?
[ November 13, 2016, 06:25 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by Brent Parker (Member # 4354) on November 13, 2016, 07:05 AM:
Leonard,
Its been 6 years since that guy switched to Hevi shot and not a loss since. He claims distances I personally am not comfortably with. His shotgun is a fixed choke. Most guys that end up running hevi shot or the other heavier than lead shot like Federal was making will tell us ( since I haven't killed enough to know the difference) that it breaks bones and kills far better than lead ever will. I personally have had no issues with 50-55 yard shots on coyotes with hevi shot T load. I have though in all honesty only shot 4 at that distance so far. I think one thing that helps me is a red dot sight so the center of the pattern is exactly were I am aiming. I know I will be drilling and tapping my 870 in the future because of that very reason.
Because I run a dog on stand I was very closed minded about a shotgun for predators for years. Last denning season I had a lot of very think cover that needed to be hunted and knew a shotgun was by far the best tool. I made the decision to just pass up any shots that were questionable and the dogs safety was a concern. It turned out it was one of the better decisions I made. Since this spring I have killed roughly 50 coyotes with a shotgun all with hevi shot. 55 yards is now the longest shot I have made and its a long ways for me with a shotgun. I prefer them at 30-35 standing broadside just waiting for me to finish the deed. However as we all know that doesn't always happen and we have to take what we get. Would I like to shoot a .90 cent round over a 5.00 dollar round with the same effective range and kill with the same authority. You betcha. Dave's spending a lot of time and effort on this endeavor and I am grateful he has been willing to share his insight and experience he has gained to this point.
My goal is for an effective shotgun to 50-55 yards. I currently have that. Now would be to try and lower my operating costs. I look at hunting and trapping as a business and it needs to pencil out and to make money for me. My wife has been very open minded to most equipment I buy but the one question I always have to answer is how long is the payback.
I ordered a few choke tubes yesterday one for fox hunting with lead shot another for coyotes.
Now to start looking for a used shot shell reloader.
Also while out calling yesterday, shot two coyotes one at 25 and another at 30. Both body shot and both went straight down. Those were good coyotes, the type we like to have come to the call.
[ November 13, 2016, 07:50 AM: Message edited by: Brent Parker ]
Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on November 13, 2016, 12:49 PM:
Brent, I'm running a SpeedBead on my 870. No drilling or tapping. May or may not appeal to you but thought I'd mention it.
My small amount of experience so far, I'm a believer in Hevi-shot or similar tungsten based. Cost is the drawback, but can be justified where money on the other side works.
You can get some Hevi BB for $10/lb right now. I bought 20 lbs and wish I could spring for another 10 lbs. If there is any left by spring, I will. Don't think the BB will extend range like the T or #4 buck but I think it will kill like crazy under 50 yards and at that price I won't even mind letting Tim use my shotgun lol!
- DAA
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on November 13, 2016, 02:44 PM:
You guys really know how to tempt me. I never seriously, (for a minute) thought I would ever be interested in loading for shotgun.
But $200 worth of Hevi shot is a serious commitment, at MY level of commitment....which is not high. But, I'm usually a plunger, so I'm worried. Thanks a lot!
Good hunting. El Bee
Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on November 14, 2016, 05:37 AM:
$200 is only 40 rounds of factory Hevi ammo. 20 lbs is 200 rounds worth of 1-1/2 oz. loads. Almost $800 worth of shot at normal prices.
It's crazy stupid cheap for Hevi. Seriously doubt you'll ever find it for less than $35 - $40 a pound anywhere else, ever again.
- DAA
Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on November 14, 2016, 07:09 AM:
Dave I would make sure that it is the heavier than lead shot. They do make 2 different types. One is 10.5 g/cc(Hevishot Duck) and the other is the 12 g/cc(Hevishot Goose).Since Lead is 11.34 g/cc one is heavier than lead the other is not.
I looked at the Natchez website and it doesnt say which one it is.
Good Hunting Chad
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on November 14, 2016, 07:25 AM:
For what reason should the price go up?
I know that I should buy three pickups because in another 20 years they will cost $100,000 instead of $57,000. That would save serious money. But I'm 74?
Forty shells would last me well into next season, I should think? I'm an incremental guy.
Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on November 14, 2016, 07:55 AM:
Chad, this is the old discontinued Rem. HD stuff. It's 12g/cc. If you look at the charts I've posted, you'll notice there is only 71 pellets in a 1-1/2 oz. load compared to 77 pellets in the Hornady lead 1-1/2 oz. load.
Plier test tells me it's harder than lead too.
Not pretty though! Looks like welding slag. Not very uniform, not very round. Seems to pattern well though and really ought to kill awfully good at under 50 yards.
Have not actually tried it on coyote yet myself. Will soon, hopefully. Have heard lots of good things about the discontinued Rem. HD BB factory loads on coyote though. This is that same shot.
I did kill a few coyotes with some of the discontinued Fed. HW #2's. Which are quite a bit heavier still at 15g/cc. With 90 pellets in a 1-1/2 oz. load they pattern super good. The few coyotes I shot with them were all dead before they hit the ground too. That's some awesome stuff. Almost impossible to find and very expensive when you do though. I found some 3-1/2" loads of it still in stock somewhere, but at $40 a box (for 10), that's $40 a pound for the shot and at that price, I'll pay a bit more and get TSS at 18g/cc.
- DAA
Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on November 14, 2016, 08:13 AM:
Good to hear Dave. I just remember alot of the duck hunting guys bitching about the hevishot duck and how it wasn't as good as the hevishot goose and the Remington HD. Good to hear it is the good stuff. Might be worth buying a bag or two.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on November 14, 2016, 09:35 AM:
Note: $40 for ten is still better than Dead Coyote! All I have to go by is last year, well, not "last year" but earlier this year. At BassProShops, I saw Dead Coyote, not sure but probably T shot, and it was $54.95 a box for 3 1/2". I've shot a few of those and they damned near knock your fillings loose. I don't want to kill coyotes that bad when I can finesse with #4Buck, if I can just get them inside 40 yards. But then, they are moving too fast! I'm still wondering what's so bad about lead, anyway?
We let these zealots micro manage and pass regulatory laws that sound good and nobody has the time to object, but next thing you know, they have made perfectly good shotshells illegal and they are laughing at us. That's what we are dealing with: Liberals exhibiting their foul mental illness on the rest of us!
Good hunting. El Bee
edit: about all the hue and cry concerning LEAD. This all started many seasons ago when they noticed poisoned ducks in the Mississippi flyway. But, the main thing is that all the ponds back there have mud bottoms that trap lead shot and the divers injest it and the say something like a 5% die as a result. Then, so they say, the introduction of steel caused an increase of 3%-5% in cripples that set their wings and are unrecoverable. So much for the gain, but they don't stop there. One size fits all.
It seems that the western flyway all the ponds and such have sand and gravel bottoms and the lead shifts to the bottom, kinda like gold does until it hits bedrock. So, here we are with regulations against lead when it's unjustified. Add that to the idiots that can't tell the difference between diver ducks and upland game! In California you can't hardly buy any shotshell in lead. Lead is inert, babies aren't going to eat the stuff in their breakfast Cherrios. It's all a sham! Never mind the trend to much larger shot sizes that really sink fast.
And, don't get me started on poisoning California Condors! That trend is completely bogus. More condors die from being electrocuted between conductors on power poles than drinking antifreeze or being potted from their roost. Suddenly we have to use very inferior solid copper bullets that don't conform in the bore like a copper jacket does. Anyway, why do we lose freedom to such stupid and unsupportable regulations? It's all antigun, has nothing to do with environmentalism. SAVE US!
[ November 14, 2016, 09:52 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on November 17, 2016, 01:07 AM:
The goal of the do-gooders had nothing to do with ducks. Ducks were just the feel good cause.
What they wanted was to add enough restrictions that a number of hunters would stop hunting ducks.
In turn, the hunters would not be taking along / teaching their sons & grandsons to hunt. Over a period of decades, hunters become extinct.
In the meantime, if you could be counted on for a donation $$ to the worthy cause (insert sad duck footage) please send your checks to .........
Lead.
Coyote contests.
Trapping.
Baiting.
Dogs.
Same goal ............different feel good cause.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on November 17, 2016, 06:13 AM:
koko, you know too much to be just a casually informed citizen. You sit in on these meetings?
Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on November 17, 2016, 06:20 AM:
Actually, I'm the Seventh Son of a Seventh Son.
I have insight from the Other Side.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on November 17, 2016, 09:58 AM:
Meaning; The Far Side?
Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on November 17, 2016, 03:04 PM:
This is where I would normally reply with a pithy comment but I just saw Nancy Pelosi on the tube.
I swear she babbled for two minutes and said nothing. The woman frightens me. She is not right.
Probably an alien............a friggen' SPACE ALIEN !!!!!!!!
I can't think straight right now. ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on November 17, 2016, 05:42 PM:
I don't understand how she does it? Every time she opens her mouth, I hear idiocy. Who could continually vote for that woman? Says something about democrats, donut?
Good hunting. El Bee
Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on November 28, 2016, 04:12 AM:
Shotgunned a few more over the weekend. Using the Hevi-shot BB load this time. Over all, pretty good, but not without some disappointment.
Shot nine coyotes with them. Two got on. Of the seven that carried back to the Jeep, two needed to be shot twice. But five were dead in their tracks.
Both that got away and both that needed shot twice were over 40 yards. Inside that, deadly, outside, not so much maybe.
Had one run smack dab right into me at full speed yesterday morning too. Never saw or heard it coming, no warning. Just minding my own business and BLAM! Coyote runs into my right side at full speed. Somehow managed to kill it, too.
Good fun!
Some of the weekend activity. All of these I'm posing with were shotgunned but we killed a bunch with the rifles too.
This is the one that ran into me.
Coyotes were really turned on in the morning with the new snow. I had the one run into me, then shotgunned pairs on the next two stands in a row.
- DAA
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on November 28, 2016, 06:55 AM:
God, I am so jealous! And, you get $50 no questions asked? wink?
Good hunting. El Bee
PS holy cow! the barrel on that shottie looks 30 inches?
PPS I've had a few hop over me and a fox walk on my leg but never been crashed into?
Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on November 28, 2016, 07:11 AM:
Yeah I've had plenty I could almost reached out and touched, but this was a first.
Backtracked it in the snow. I was sitting next to a sage brush. It had come running from my 4 o'clock and leaped a big sage just to the right of me and landed/crashed square into my right side. Knocked me sideways a bit. Jumped up, yelling HOLY FUCKING SHIT!!! Coyote was scrambling to get away too, using me for traction. Left red marks on my skin where his toenails dug in trying to launch himself in a new direction.
More than just a little bit surprised I was able to regain enough composure to kill him as he tried to flee.
- DAA
Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on November 28, 2016, 07:17 AM:
BTW... Leonard, this bothers me, so forgive me saying anything.
But. Spare me the "wink". If it's implying I'd turn in coyotes for Utah bounty, taken in another state?
I'm disappointed you would even consider that a possibility of me. Bounty fraud is a total fucking douche bag move. It ain't my move.
- DAA
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on November 28, 2016, 07:24 AM:
Accept my apology. Main thing is, with that many coyotes, I was actually supposing that this trip occurred mostly in Nevada?
Thanks for sharing.
Good hunting. El Bee
PS aside from all the suspicions, when a bounty is involved, it will be abused.
Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on November 28, 2016, 08:23 AM:
Sounds like a great weekend.with some great action Dave.
I agree about the bounty too. Of all the coyote I've killed in Nevada over the last few years never even crossed my mind to turn them in for the bounty here in Utah.Dick heads that do are scumbags.
Good Hunting Chad
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on November 28, 2016, 09:57 AM:
Let's not kid ourselves, this stuff happens everywhere there is a bounty on anything. I have actually done some extensive reading and research on the subject going all the way back to the Sweetwater County bounty in Wyoming, in the early 70's. Sweetwater County paid a lot of bounty on coyotes from all over the state, and nobody knew or cared where the boundary line was. Of course, it was just five bucks but they still ran out of money.
The thing that puzzles me is; Utah doesn't need an incentive? I understand the pressure from the big game people but (sorry) Utah just doesn't have a coyote problem. I've been there.
Good hunting. El Bee
Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on November 28, 2016, 10:20 AM:
There are definitely not huge problems with coyotes in the State but there are pockets of problems especially for some of the livestock guys in the springtime. But generally I don't think the bounty has any effect on managing the coyote population one way or another. But as long as they offer it I will take advantage of it. Pays for gas and then some. It can really pay too. In the spring I will get some phone calls of sheep men having some coyote problems and if I can go in and kill a couple coyotes in a morning the rancher will give me $100 for each coyote I kill, then the $50.00 bounty. I can come home with $300.00 for a few hours of calling. Doesn't happen like that every time but more often than not.
Good Hunting Chad
[ November 28, 2016, 10:22 AM: Message edited by: UTcaller ]
Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on November 29, 2016, 06:43 AM:
The Utah bounty is just good old fashioned pork barrel politics.
It got put in by the Big Game lobby, which, here in Utah, is surprisingly powerful. Maybe not so surprising, really, since Big Game = BIG MONEY all over the West, anymore.
The publicly stated goals/rationale are improved fawn recruitment.
Anyone with two functioning brain cells to rub together and access to a public library or a dial up internet connection knows that a bounty program is literally the lest efficient, most expensive, non effective, totally fucking moronic way of controlling coyotes at specific places and specific times (fawn recruitment) that has ever been invented.
Plainly put, it does not work. Not even slightly.
And also plainly put, all coyote bounty programs have been plagued by fraud and I know for a fact that the Utah one has been. I knew guys with contacts inside the Big Money Big Game outfit that got the program enacted, that knew it was coming a full year in advance, who were putting ears and jaws in the freezer just waiting for it to go into effect.
But, it's popular. It plays well with the rural folks. Most coyote hunters I have ever talked to about it, think I'm on glue to even imagine that a bounty doesn't reduce coyote numbers.
So, what the hell. It's free money. I take it when I'm entitled. Between bounty and a fur check, I'm expecting to pay for a new Benelli out of this years coyote take.
- DAA
Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on November 29, 2016, 06:47 AM:
Might add, in the interest of being "fair and balanced"...
The state did add a contractor component to the bounty program, which at least has the potential to actually be effective. I got the letter inviting me to join. Basically offered $10K, to spend x number of hours in x area at x time of year hunting coyotes. A pretty good deal for all involved. I did not try to join as I simply don' have the time to fulfill the contract.
But, for the guys that did, if they live up to it, they'll actually be removing coyotes from the places they need to be at the times they need to be, in order to actually have some impact on improved fawn recruitment.
- DAA
Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on November 29, 2016, 07:52 AM:
Yeah I got the same letter. You had to have turned in so many Coyotes on the bounty to be eligible, and had to put in like 200 hours in a specific area from December until June. And you were given $5000.00 up front, and the other $5000 after you finished the 200 hours.I turned it down too because of not having the time to put in to it.
Good Hunting Chad
Posted by Lone Howl (Member # 29) on November 29, 2016, 09:02 AM:
How are they going to verify the hours?
Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on November 29, 2016, 09:35 AM:
Basically you keep track of the days and hours you hunt and turn them in to the DWR. Is how I understand it.
Posted by Brent Parker (Member # 4354) on November 30, 2016, 10:28 AM:
DAA,
Glad you had the chance to try the hevi shot BB. How did you feel it compared to your F shot buckshot load? I am really think that load is going to be your best compromise load for all factors. Range, price and killing power. Killed a few more with the Hornaday BB load the other day. It has done well to 40 yards but after that plan on hitting them again.
Brent
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on November 30, 2016, 12:21 PM:
Yes, agree with Brent. Similar to reinventing the wheel, just count on a shotgun being very reliable out to 40 yards. Anything beyond is gravy, but don't bet your life on it.
I will say that I have read what Paul Melching wrote about his experience killing coyotes way out beyond 40 and Paul is nobody's fool. If he is getting results like that, I have to think it's credible. Maybe he has the formula or what the hell you might call it, but for most of us normal people, it's just hard to achieve, at least consistently.
I'm just very conservative about long range anything, so don't get me started on 500 yard 17Remington kills. Just lobbing one in the boiler room is an accomplishment, much less...uh oh, don't mean to get off topic!
Good hunting. El Bee
Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on November 30, 2016, 12:48 PM:
Brent, I've only killed one coyote with the F load so far. Only shot at one.
Got lucky and hit nine of them with the HS BB load over the weekend.
So, pretty lopsided sample size.
But, the one I did kill with the F, was more impressive to me than any of the nine hit with the BB. That was a BIG coyote, at almost 40, turning away and it was dead in it's tracks.
So, if that holds up, then I'd say you are definitely correct.
My plan is to stick with the NP F load from here out, until I get a good sample size - ten or more. So I'll have at least a little bit of experience to compare.
But so far, the HS BB load, really deadly at under 40. Really. Over that, yeah, plan on hitting them again. To the point that, if it looks like you can only get one into them, pass... If it's over 40 and running away, pass...
Hopefully, the snow doesn't lock me out and I can get another dozen or so with the F shot in the next few weeks. Snow situation is looking grim though. Once it gets so deep, I can't get around in my Jeep and that's pretty much the end of that. Some of my good spots, it's already too deep.
- DAA
Posted by Brent Parker (Member # 4354) on December 01, 2016, 06:05 AM:
Dave,
Thanks for the update. While I was only using BB lead, it wasn't nearly as impressive as DC T shot was on coyotes. I will know more in the future but looking at the chart you posted and from talking to a few other guys there is a fine line between shot size, weight and speed in making a good coyote load it seems. I remember how well steel F killed geese from my 10 ga. years ago and when I saw they had nickel plated lead F buckshot I thought it should have some potential. Christmas and the grandkids are eating my disposable income for now but I am already looking for a loader.
Brent
Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on December 01, 2016, 08:38 AM:
I found some really good prices on used Mec's when I was looking. Started out looking for a 600 Jr., was planning to spend less than $70, but stumbled across a like new Sizemaster here locally for $90 so I snagged it up.
- DAA
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 01, 2016, 08:50 AM:
It would be nice if this thread evolved into the next positive 50 yard coyote load!
Posted by Brent Parker (Member # 4354) on December 01, 2016, 09:43 AM:
DAA,
I have been watching craigslist but nothing so far. May end up buying new if I have too. I want to go with a Sizemaster though.
Leonard,
DC T is a 50 yard load at least for me. Have shot several over 50 with it and killed them all.
However I agree it would be nice to find a great 50 yard load that cost 1.00 instead of 5.00 a shot. I am hoping this load DAA is using with the F shot is going to be the one.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 01, 2016, 01:12 PM:
Yes, I agree, Brent.
Here's my history, stated before. From the truck, 90% of the kills are with rifle but occasionally a coyote pops up, unexpectedly, close and moving fast.
This is night hunting, primarily. So, since we always keep a shottie up there for just such situations, flatten the volunteer and continue the stand.
But, Always keep an eye on that dead coyote. Sometimes five minutes, occasionally ten minutes later, he will get up and romp off while we might be distracted with something else.
This is why my attitude is that many shotgunned coyotes require two shots. Maybe I'm just a poor shot? One thing I'm hearing is aim for the head. I've always concentrated on center of mass. I might need to work on that?
Good hunting. El Bee
Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on December 01, 2016, 03:27 PM:
I'm so green I shouldn't even comment. But, my need to shoot them again seems to have gone down quite a bit since I started shooting them in the face.
A little stalactite of goo from a BB hole in the face...
Edit: Wrong picture!
- DAA
[ December 01, 2016, 03:28 PM: Message edited by: DAA ]
Posted by Az-Hunter (Member # 17) on December 01, 2016, 03:43 PM:
When it comes to green, I got you by a longshot Dave! I have scoured my brain to remember every coyote Ive ever killed with a shotgun, comes to a grand total of two, both shot out the passenger side window of a moving pick-up truck.
Now that's some sorry fucking ethics ehh? Picture a scene from Daktari, that's about how that played out. Damn lucky we never rolled that old 53 chevy!
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 01, 2016, 05:11 PM:
So the pot calls the kettle black while ground sluicing? But, it was only two, right? Just poking at ya, you know it's in good humor.
Everybody has their ethical considerations, whatever they may be? I know a guy that wouldn't shoot a damned coyote unless he was standing stock still, immobile and it also seemed like the coyote should be unmoving for a count of 3, maybe longer? This resulted in many coyotes getting a snootful of human scent and never stopping, and many missed opportunities, and many gritted teeth, and perhaps a word or two exchanged? But, what are you going to do?
I'll tell you what. Get that asshole off the gun! Which is what we did. Let him contribute in other ways, like shagging dead coyotes, like driving, but get him off the gun. If he wanted to hunt on our team. Can you imagine a man so absorbed that he actually shot and put a hole in his own truck, while drawing a bead on a moving coyote. I can't either. And, this is a guy that could shoot groups in the .1's, routinely, and unfortunately, just on paper. He was the worst shot on game I've ever seen. But, not too too bad with a shotgun, if I'm being honest.
Oh well. But everybody has their cross to bear.
I'm interested in knowing what kind of recoil these new custom loads have? Let's call Dead Coyote a 10 for comparative sake. I mean, that's not a 2 ounce load, what are they 1 5/8 oz or what is it? So, it it velocity, the powder charge, or what?
Good hunting. El Bee
Posted by Aaron Rhoades (Member # 4234) on December 01, 2016, 05:55 PM:
Likewise, I'm also interested in recoil. I can't imagine that it's any more pleasant to shoot but I have to ask, is there any gains in the (less)shoulder bruising department?
Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on December 01, 2016, 06:58 PM:
Negative. 1-1/2 Oz at 1350 or 1-3/4 at 1260 still kicks like a mule!
- DAA
Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on December 02, 2016, 01:03 AM:
Lately I have been shooting the factory Remington express 3 inch #4 buck. The velocity is around 1250 fps and they have 41 pellets. They seem to hit coyotes damn hard out to 40 yards. Kind of lost my taste for the BB'S to many followup shots for me. Both with the lead Hornady's and the Hevishot goose BB's.
Good Hunting Chad
Posted by Brent Parker (Member # 4354) on December 02, 2016, 05:30 AM:
The recoil has never been an issue for me. I really never thought it was that bad. I spent most of my late 20's hunting predators in the mornings and a lot of pass shooting geese and ducks in the afternoons. But I must admit that shooting from the bench is not near as much fun.
I just see the shotgunning as another tool to put more fur in the truck. O'Gorman said it best. Its not how you put the fur in the shed that determines how good a season you had, but how much fur you have at the end of season that determines how good a year you had. Whether its trapped, snared, shot, ran over with the truck or killed with a claw hammer I really don't care. As long as it goes to the house with me.
Chad, I have not been very impressed with Hornadays BB load either. Most coyotes with it have needed another shot. My 870 patterns it way better than my Benelli though.
A place the shotgun has really shinned is fox hunting. Our greys are pretty nice fur wise and until last year always used a .22 magnum. Last year I went back to the shotgun and my numbers have went way up. A modified choke and some #2 shot has been the ticket. Putting up shotgunned fur has also been a pleseant surprise. Not near the work as a lot of rifle shot fur unless its a .17 or .20 caliber in my experience.
Brent
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 02, 2016, 05:36 AM:
There it is: kicks like a mule! No free lunch.
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