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Author
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Topic: My first hand loads - shotgun
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Moe
Knows what it's all about
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posted October 20, 2016 09:13 AM
I fear the same thing. I couldn't believe that Obama could ever be elected but he was. The evidence of voter fraud was overwhelming but it didn't seem to matter. In this cycle I'm seeing articles in what I always thought were conservative sites and publications that are trying to debunk voter fraud because Trump mentioned it.
The world has turned upside down and I believe this is our last chance to right it. If Hillary wins we'll be stepping into that thousand years of darkness Reagan told us about.
If the Republicans had spent as much effort fighting Obama as they have fighting Trump we wouldn't be haing this conversation.
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Leonard
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posted October 20, 2016 10:18 AM
That's what I don't get? Apparently, they are comfortable being the permanent minority party? All they want is a job in Washington, then they get a swell retirement package. I don't think they actually want to win, on the National level?
Now, if only Libertarians made any sense, at all? But, we are locked into a two party system and there is no room for a serious third party. Those people are wasting their time and everybody else's time.
It's just like baseball. People say, what's the big deal? It's either going to be a fastball or a curve. The people that say that are ignorant. There are so many variations that those two pitches expand to at least nine different distinct pitches, and you never know what you are going to see, and it always depends on the COUNT and whether the pitcher is a righty or a southpaw. Same goes for which side of the plate the batter stands at.
So, every candidate has his own set of policies, maybe half of them coincide with the party that they claim to be a member of. But they all have a position on health care, foreign policy, ways to fix social security, the national deficit, birth control and abortion, and none of them fit like a cookie cutter.
In other words, there are many ways to be a Republican and not a lot of differences between any garden variety Democrat, since they have party discipline and move in socialist lockstep. Unfortunately.
This year, the Chicago Cubs, perennial losers still have a chance to go to the World Series in (what)? 100 years, or so? Trump doesn't have anywhere near that good of a chance, only because he can't keep his mouth shut. He's what a friend of mine used to say about his ex-wife; she's a crazy maker!
Trump is a fucking crazy maker. I'm not too optimistic, at this point that he won't avoid a huge embarrassment.
Good hunting. El Bee
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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UTcaller
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posted October 20, 2016 10:34 AM
If the Republicans had spent as much effort fighting Obama as they have fighting Trump we wouldn't be haing this conversation.
That is the the most accurate statement I have heard this election cycle.....
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DAA
Utah/Promoted WESTERN REGIONAL Hunt Director
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posted October 30, 2016 01:53 PM
Did some pattern testing with my loads this morning. Shot three loads through three chokes each.
Using my 870 Express, at 40 yards. Shooting standing up on my hind legs. Wind was howling.
Circles are 10". Drawn around the densest part of the pattern after the shot. Figure I'll treat pattern density and getting it centered on point of aim as separate issues.
So, this little chart again. I think it helps put everything into move complete context.
Skipping right to the chase, the 1-3/4 oz. NP F shot with a Dead Coyote choke was the clear winner of the day.
That's 27 pellets in the 10" circle. 45 pellets hit the 24"x24" backer. There are 49 pellets in the load. So, 55% of the pellets in a 10" circle at 40 yards, that should rug out a coyote pretty good!
For comparison, I shot some Fed. Prem. #4 buck through the same gun and choke a few years ago and only got an average of 8 pellets in a 10" circle for 3 shots at 40 yards. That same day, Dead Coyote with the same choke averaged 14 pellet strikes. Not apples to apples, as I was shooting at a ringed target and counting pellet strikes within a 5" radius of point of aim. And it was a different day, etc. Will need to shoot four or five of each in the same session sometime for a fair comparison.
And, I know, one shot, hardly qualifies as data. Need to shoot at least three, five would be better, and see what the shot to shot variation is like. But, for a variety of reasons, that wasn't the plan today. One shot of each load and each choke was all I was good for this time.
Still, that load is showing some real promise!
This was the best pattern with 1-1/2 oz. of Hevi-shot BB, with a Rem. Turkey Extra Full extended choke. With 32 out of 72 (44%) in the 10" circle it also looks like a coyote killer. I noticed this load does hit low, compared to the others though.
And this was as good as I could do with 1-1/2 oz. of lead T shot, with the DC choke. With 18 of 51 pellets in the circle (35%) I think it's the least impressive of the three loads, but still a definitely serviceable coyote load.
Next up, hopefully, will be killing a few coyotes with each ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) .
- DAA
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"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter
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knockemdown
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posted October 31, 2016 04:37 AM
Really cool & informative to see how Dave's comprehensive rifle testing procedures translate to a shotgun...
Thanks for sharing & adding to the knowledge base of all of us!
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Leonard
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posted October 31, 2016 05:25 AM
Well, I have a question.
That ten inch circle is determined how? You just kinda eyeballed the most pellets and drew a pattern? 'Splain me, why 10 and not 11, or 9? The black disc, I assume is the aimimg point?
This is so scientific, stuff, and all. From what I gather, Moe is a shotgun person, he might provide me some answers to why this and that?
Good hunting. El Bee
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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DAA
Utah/Promoted WESTERN REGIONAL Hunt Director
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posted October 31, 2016 06:03 AM
Because the paper plate I had was 10".
- DAA
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"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter
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Moe
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posted November 02, 2016 06:27 PM
Standard circle for patterning a shotgun is 30" Aiming point, if that's what you want to call it, is center everything within the circle constitutes your pattern. Standard patterning is done at 30 yards. Depending on what I'm shooting for waterfowl I keep my shots at or under 35 yards. Back when it was legal I used #4 buckshot for honkers. I once killed one at 75 measured yards after missing it twice when it was closer. I was a kid, what can I say?
I've never killed a coyote with a shotgun over 35 yards out with any size shot and I've killed a lot of coyotes with a shotgun. I use #4 buck exclusively.
Now, I'm not saying that a coyote can't be killed farther out but as your shot travels through the air the pattern gets smaller and smaller and a lot of the shot slows down to a speed that isn't lethal. I've seen what shotgunners call The Golden BB that miraculously hits a bird or animal in a vital spot and kills it but we're supposed to be sportsmen. Wounding critters and causing them to suffer isn't in my makeup.
And on that subject, magnum loads give you more shot. They DO NOT give you longer range. Magnum, loads make your patterns denser making surer kills at reasonable ranges.
There are a lot of people out there that don't understand shotguns or shotgun shells. The more pellet strikes you get the more likely to make the kill.
Eastern Oregon has some varied country to call. Some of the sagebrush is thick. Unfortunately that's where the most coyotes are found. A shotgun is pretty much required. Either that or a guy with shooting skills far beyond mine with a rifle. I prefer using a rifle for calling and I've been lucky enough to have carried a rifle out on what should've been a shotgun stand and killed running coyotes at like 10 yards with the rifle but I would be the first to say it was pure luck.
[ November 02, 2016, 06:40 PM: Message edited by: Moe ]
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DAA
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posted November 03, 2016 04:41 AM
Thanks for the input Moe!
I used to be a pretty good rifleman. Tens of thousands of rounds expended on running jackrabbits, and at one time, I honestly thought running coyotes seemed awful big and slow and easy to hit. Those days are long gone forever now though. I sometimes have trouble hitting them when they are sitting still anymore. Runners, I still roll one up now and then, but now it feels like luck?
Anyway... I took up the shotgun specifically for making "shotgun stands". Thick stuff I've just been passing by for years, knowing it held coyote, but not wanting to mess with it. It started to pay off immediately. Have killed about ten coyotes this fall on stands I'd not have made at all, without a shotgun.
I'll probably make some effort at carrying both rifle and shotgun in the more open stuff I usually call, to have a bail out option for kamikazes, too. But I haven't done that yet.
On the 30" patterns though, I don't know, new to all this. But I just don't see much use for the waterfowl mindset when all I'm ever going to shoot is coyote. And mostly with buckshot, probably never using any shot smaller than BB.
I'm wanting to see how many pellets a load is likely to put on a coyote at a given distance. To that end, an 8" circle would probably be more realistic. But he paper plate is ubiquitous and convenient. The visual I get with the 10" circle serves my information needs well enough I think. And, the 2x2 backer I made seems about right too, for seeing what the "whole pattern" is doing. Anything that isn't even hitting a two foot square, is way beyond mattering, for coyote hunting. No golden BB hopes here .
It's all just a learning curve for me though. If I could have it all, I'd want a nice wide pattern for hitting close in runners in the brush, but center dense enough to still put 10 pellets in the front half of a coyote at 50 yards. And all that, with enough penetration to break down a coyote going straight away at 40 yards. Can't have it all though, so I'm just testing to see just what I can have. Then make my best guess as to which will work best for me in what situations.
- DAA
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"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter
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Leonard
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posted November 03, 2016 05:36 AM
Might you consider the turkey method? Seems like they want a super tight choke for those head shots? From what I have gathered, a 10" paper plate pattern is inadequate, at 40 yards? Maybe you want a wider spread for moving targets whereas the turkey hunter is usually aiming at a stationary target.
I can't help thinking that all those pellets striking all over the 2X2 are sort of wasted?
I had a vague concept that buckshot was not Kosher on waterfowl but I didn't know it might be illegal?
We have to remember that the pattern is not a flat disc, that the pellets are spread out laterally like a swarm of bees. Shotgunning is a black art, not suitable for civilized types.
I think Dave is being very modest as to his shooting ability. I'd put him right up there with Victor and Cal Taylor. And, my old partner Pat. Pat and I always had supreme confidence in the other's ability. If I wasn't shooting, I knew with certainty that he had the situation under control and seldom missed. It's rare to have a partner you can count on, but those named above, along with a couple others are excellent shots on game, in my book.
For some, they are blessed from childhood, just take to it naturally. Others, like myself, I had to learn it, OJT. And, for me, it involved deliberate movements and calm, best I can explain it.
Good hunting. El Bee
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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DAA
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posted November 03, 2016 09:33 AM
Leonard, I think for our purposes, the shot swarm may as well be two dimensional. It's moving so fast, in relation to ourselves and the coyote.
There is no way we can influence the pattern by how fast we swing the shotgun. If we could swing a barrel fast enough to do that we'd make a sonic boom.
Likewise, there is no way a coyote can "run into" a "shot string" that is passing by in front of him. Again, if a coyote could run fast enough to do that they would make sonic booms.
I've never been a shotgunner. But have heard this kind of stuff all my life and never had any reason not to believe it. But once I started to dig into shotgun stuff for myself, I quickly recognized that there is some straight up nonsense that gets passed around. But it only takes about two minutes looking at the data and thinking about it to realize how totally impossible that stuff really is.
No black art. Just some old wives tales .
- DAA
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"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter
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DAA
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posted November 07, 2016 06:49 AM
First kill with my handloads. The 1-3/4 oz. nickel plated F load was used.
Wasn't even a "shotgun stand". But I was horny to try out my loads on a coyote and Tim had us covered with the rifle. I posted out in front of the caller. Got this very big, very old male at 38 yards as it started to turn away to leave. Dropped him in his tracks and was dead when he hit the ground, best as I could tell.
That really is a BIG coyote, for my areas, too. I mean, like less than one out of a hundred I kill is that size.
I'm going to call it a success ![[Smile]](smile.gif) .
- DAA
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"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter
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Moe
Knows what it's all about
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posted November 07, 2016 07:30 AM
That really is a big coyote. Nice.
Nickel plated shot keeps the shot from deforming when being shot through a shotgun barrel making your patterns denser and more effective. It also penetrates better. Copper plated shot doesn't do that an is mostly hype.
Ever notice that target loads have low brass and hunting loads have high brass? Although the pressure are about the same guys are fooled into thinking the high brass loads are better. Shotshell makers put that high brass on their shells to fool people. I used to reload Winchester AA low brass loads with 1 1/2 oz of #6 lead shot for hunting ducks.
Also, high base and low base has nothing to do with the effectiveness of a shotgun shell. It just means the shell either has a high or low base wad inside. People are fooled by terms.
Leonard....When I said I used #4 buck for pass shooting honkers I meant when lead shot was legal for waterfowl. There were some places where it was illegal, like some refuges, because of its range and weight. Even now some refuges limit the size shot you're allowed to use.
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UTcaller
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posted November 07, 2016 09:05 AM
Nice Coyote Dave. Gotta love those Big Desert Coyotes...
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knockemdown
Our staff photo editing Guru, par excellence
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posted November 07, 2016 11:23 AM
Beauty!
Sounds like you got the performance you were lookin' for...
Bet that felt good to see him drop like a sack o' taters!
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Leonard
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posted November 08, 2016 08:05 AM
Before I read the words, I could tell that was a big dog!
You know, over the years, in our club, we always kept records on largest animal, cats, coyotes, fox, badger, etc. I am sure we never weighed a 40 pound coyote, but an occasional 36/38 pounder.
Almost all the really big coyotes that I have seen come from northern Nevada, although a few could have been south-eastern Idaho, or south-eastern Oregon, but basically influenced by that upper tier border area of northern Nevada. A few big ones come out of the Owens Valley and a few in northern Arizona....although I killed a very big coyote down around Oracle Junction probably twenty years ago, could have gone 37-38pounds.
And, I'm a pretty fair judge of weights like that because I always carried the official scale, and it's a good one not a crappy electronic scale that goes teats up when you need it.
I used to read a lot of articles by Jack O'Connor when I was young, and of course, when I was able bought a 270W, of course. One thing I always remembered that he said: The Big Ones Look Big
What he meant by that was when you actually eyeball a big one, there is very little doubt what you are looking at, a trophy animal.
I have found that to be true....although far be it, for me to validate Jack O'Connor.
Thanks for posting Dave!
Good hunting. El Bee
edit: what the hell kind of digital camo pants is that, Dave?
[ November 08, 2016, 08:08 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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DAA
Utah/Promoted WESTERN REGIONAL Hunt Director
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posted November 08, 2016 02:19 PM
Leonard, those are Kuiu Attack pants. Don't know what they call the camo, or if it's any good, but I sure like the pants. Very comfy. Water resistant. But dry out fast when they do get wet. Breathable. Warmer than jeans when it's cold, but for some reason they also seem cooler when it's hot? Sounds impossible so maybe it's just my imagination. Or, maybe it's the material they are made out of and they really are?
Regardless, they ARE some dang fine hunting britches!
And, "yup". I knew the second I saw that coyote coming he was a bruiser. Just like you just said, the really big ones, LOOK big. He looked big. And no ground shrinkage. When I walked up to him, I said "Holy Shit!". Carried him to the road, Tim had gone back for his truck. When he pulled up and saw him, he said "Holy Shit!".
Weighed him, too. Been carrying a 50lb fishing scale for years and years. Almost never use it, anymore. But a long time ago, like, 15 years ago? I weighed almost every one we killed for a couple of years. Just curious. Like the couple years I inspected stomach contents on all of them.
Anyway... I don't have to guess, I know exactly how much he weighed and I won't make anyone guess. 39 lbs 11 oz.
Not the biggest I ever killed, but top ten for sure and he's top five of the ones I have actually weighed. The biggest I ever actually weighed, was 44 lbs. Have killed a couple I think were in the same league, but didn't actually weigh, so can't say for sure.
It's almost humorous, by how much the average guy over estimates the weight of an average coyote though.
- DAA
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"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter
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Leonard
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posted November 09, 2016 06:52 AM
" Kuiu Attack pants." Damn, Dave. You are becoming quite the trend setter!
Oh, my condolences to your wife. You know, the one that wouldn't piss on Trump if he was on fire?
Sorry, couldn't help it. She'll get over it. He couldn't do worse than Barry.
Good hunting. El Bee
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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DAA
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posted November 09, 2016 07:10 AM
Nah, she'll never "get over it".
She never thought what's his face had any chance, or any illusions that her vote matters. But Trump is always going to be a festering sore of a worthless scum not worthy of drawing breath, in her eyes.
She has her reasons. I'd feel the same way, in her shoes. Hell, I very little use for the shit bag, myself.
SCOTUS is all I cared about or hoped for in this election. Seems like a miracle that we got here. I'll take it!
Beyond SCOTUS, I expect Trump to be a terrible president. But, hey, the shit bag has surprised me at almost every turn on his way to the Whitehouse, maybe he'll pleasantly surprise me and actually figure out how to be an effective president? Sure would be nice.
No Hillary is a Big Win though. No matter how you slice it.
BTW... I'm betting the GOP does not repeal Obamacare. They get paid by the insurance companies same as the democrats do...
- DAA
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"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter
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knockemdown
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posted November 09, 2016 07:32 AM
LOVE those Kuiu Attack pants! Have an old beater pair for coyote calling, they gots a few tears from fence crossings & whatnot. And got a newer pair in the same (VERDE) camo as Dave's, for big game hunting. The Verde seems to hide real well in a variety of terrain, look how Dave's pants get lost against that grassy/sage...
With a set of merino base layers, Attacks will keep ya warn into the single digits, assuming normal activity to/from stand. IMHO, well worth the coin...
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Lone Howl
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posted November 09, 2016 08:08 AM
I have some as well. Very comfortable. I have several pieces of Kuiu gear and really like it.
Mark
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When tyranny becomes law, rebellion becomes duty.
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Brent Parker
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posted November 12, 2016 02:02 PM
Dave,
I haven't been keeping up with this thread. It really looks like that F shot may really be the ticket. I am running a Benelli M1 and my backup or loaner is an 870 Wingmaster. The performance seen in your first coyote makes me hopeful that it will be an alternative to Dead Coyote.
I have a friend that convinced me to switch over to Dead Coyote He bought an 870 Wingmaster 30" barrel full choke right out of college in '78 and the thing has almost no blueing left and all the finish has been worn off the stock. He shoots a lot of coyotes,fox and bobcats with it. His go too load is #4 buck hevi shot for coyotes and cats and #2 duck hevi shot 2 3/4 for fox. He switched to hevi shot after loosing 3 bobcats one day. Stated he has never lost a single animal since switching to hevi shot. I am sure if he could find an alternative load that was as effective and cheaper he would in a quick minute. After this fur season I plan to buy a shotshell reloader and would like to pick your brain about the F shot load you have been using. Your pattern looks great at 40. Have you checked it yet at 50?
Keep up the good work and whack a few more.
Brent
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Leonard
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posted November 13, 2016 06:22 AM
Brent, every time I start thinking I can stretch a shotgun to 50 yards, that's when a guy starts losing 3 cats in one day. What with brush being the biggest reason for shot to miss the mark, and other unknowns, I have been known to get up and charge the critter so as to make sure he's within 40 yards, or there abouts?
Of course, in my early days, I suffered with Fed 3" 2 oz copper plated BB's and they aren't very forgiving, if you know what I mean? Leaves a lasting impression on limitations. That's when #4 Buck, which I didn't even know existed, somebody offered that little nugget and I have been fairly happy, since.
Now, if #4 Buck is available in Hevi shot, and it doesn't cost five bucks a shell, I may be interested, but not for drilling them at 50 yards. I can't get into that attitude. If a man were to spend considerable coin doing patterns with various chokes, and find that more open chokes produce better, counterintuitively, $50/$100 Bucks later, that man may reinvent the wheel and find a load that consistently and convincingly and positively kills in the 50 yard neighborhood, it would be worth it. I guess? Was that a "run on sentence", or what?
I'm just not a fan of long range shotgunning, so I hope you fellas get it all sorted out and get the word out for us lazy types because it would shore be appreciated!
Good hunting. El Bee
edit: just remembered that Paul Melching volunteered a while back that he was killing coyotes at insane distances? Refresh us, please?
[ November 13, 2016, 06:25 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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Brent Parker
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posted November 13, 2016 07:05 AM
Leonard,
Its been 6 years since that guy switched to Hevi shot and not a loss since. He claims distances I personally am not comfortably with. His shotgun is a fixed choke. Most guys that end up running hevi shot or the other heavier than lead shot like Federal was making will tell us ( since I haven't killed enough to know the difference) that it breaks bones and kills far better than lead ever will. I personally have had no issues with 50-55 yard shots on coyotes with hevi shot T load. I have though in all honesty only shot 4 at that distance so far. I think one thing that helps me is a red dot sight so the center of the pattern is exactly were I am aiming. I know I will be drilling and tapping my 870 in the future because of that very reason.
Because I run a dog on stand I was very closed minded about a shotgun for predators for years. Last denning season I had a lot of very think cover that needed to be hunted and knew a shotgun was by far the best tool. I made the decision to just pass up any shots that were questionable and the dogs safety was a concern. It turned out it was one of the better decisions I made. Since this spring I have killed roughly 50 coyotes with a shotgun all with hevi shot. 55 yards is now the longest shot I have made and its a long ways for me with a shotgun. I prefer them at 30-35 standing broadside just waiting for me to finish the deed. However as we all know that doesn't always happen and we have to take what we get. Would I like to shoot a .90 cent round over a 5.00 dollar round with the same effective range and kill with the same authority. You betcha. Dave's spending a lot of time and effort on this endeavor and I am grateful he has been willing to share his insight and experience he has gained to this point.
My goal is for an effective shotgun to 50-55 yards. I currently have that. Now would be to try and lower my operating costs. I look at hunting and trapping as a business and it needs to pencil out and to make money for me. My wife has been very open minded to most equipment I buy but the one question I always have to answer is how long is the payback.
I ordered a few choke tubes yesterday one for fox hunting with lead shot another for coyotes.
Now to start looking for a used shot shell reloader.
Also while out calling yesterday, shot two coyotes one at 25 and another at 30. Both body shot and both went straight down. Those were good coyotes, the type we like to have come to the call.
[ November 13, 2016, 07:50 AM: Message edited by: Brent Parker ]
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DAA
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posted November 13, 2016 12:49 PM
Brent, I'm running a SpeedBead on my 870. No drilling or tapping. May or may not appeal to you but thought I'd mention it.
My small amount of experience so far, I'm a believer in Hevi-shot or similar tungsten based. Cost is the drawback, but can be justified where money on the other side works.
You can get some Hevi BB for $10/lb right now. I bought 20 lbs and wish I could spring for another 10 lbs. If there is any left by spring, I will. Don't think the BB will extend range like the T or #4 buck but I think it will kill like crazy under 50 yards and at that price I won't even mind letting Tim use my shotgun lol!
- DAA
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"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter
Posts: 2676 | From: Salt Lake City, UT | Registered: Jan 2003
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