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Author
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Topic: Coyotes w the new can..
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Fur_n_Dirt
So. Ariz. Zone Tech. Expert
Member # 4467
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posted December 17, 2014 07:00 PM
Ok, I'm getting horny over this 22-250 AI.. Lol
Two options I see .. 1) buy a gun new or used and switch barrel or 2) buy one w the Ackly barrel.
Any vendor suggestions where I can buy or build one for under $1200?
Thanks guys!
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--- It's all simple if you know what you are doing ---
Posts: 437 | From: Tucson | Registered: Sep 2013
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TOM64
Knows what it's all about
Member # 561
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posted December 17, 2014 07:47 PM
Buy a Rem 700 22-250 as cheap as you can, send it to your smith, have it set back, trued and rechambered. Work should be less than $200
Or if you're like me and want a faster twist, have a Douglas barrel screwed on for less than $300. Douglas may not be top of the line but I've been pleased with mine.
Posts: 2283 | From: okieland | Registered: Feb 2005
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Lonny
PANTS ON THE GROUND
Member # 19
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posted December 17, 2014 08:49 PM
A fast-twist 22-250AI is on my short list.
Tom, what is your favored bullet in your 250 AI?
Posts: 1209 | From: Lewiston, Idaho USA | Registered: Jan 2003
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TOM64
Knows what it's all about
Member # 561
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posted December 17, 2014 08:57 PM
I built this little Montana to shoot 75 gr A-max's but I never did get em to group good enough. I ran out of time and tried the 55 gr NBT's and they shot great at a decent speed (3824 fps) so I just started killing things with it. I need to play with a few more loads but this thing is a 6.5 lb. Giant slayer as is.
 [/URL]
It's a 1/8 twist Douglas barrel, same contour as the original barrel at 22". I killed a few coyotes and a couple of hogs then it was spring so I put it away and got side tracked this past summer.
[ December 17, 2014, 09:03 PM: Message edited by: TOM64 ]
Posts: 2283 | From: okieland | Registered: Feb 2005
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CrossJ
SECOND PLACE: PAUL RYAN Look-a-like contest
Member # 884
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posted December 17, 2014 09:03 PM
In my opinion, the 22-250 AI is as close as you can get to the 'perfect' coyote rifle. Of course, this has been stated already. 3980 fps with a 55g nosler down a 26" lilja 1:12.
maintain
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knockemdown
Our staff photo editing Guru, par excellence
Member # 3588
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posted December 18, 2014 04:54 AM
Lonny, if you are looking for 'turn key', there is a really nicely appointed .22-250AI listed F/S on Snipers Hide classifieds.
Hide linky
Posts: 2202 | From: behind fascist lines | Registered: Mar 2010
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DAA
Utah/Promoted WESTERN REGIONAL Hunt Director
Member # 11
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posted December 18, 2014 05:50 AM
What is this case trimming you guys speak of?
After measuring my .22-250 chambers for their actual length, I never trimmed a .22-250 case again. Ever.
Same is true for pretty much all my rifles. Knowing how long those cases can actually grow, rather than going by the "book", I just don't bother to trim anything. Ever.
I have a 27" Lilja 12T .22-250AI that is huffing and puffing and getting on the short side of primer pocket life to reach 3800 fps with 55's, too. Have had faster ones for sure. Not all of them will live up to expectations.
- DAA
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"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter
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Fur_n_Dirt
So. Ariz. Zone Tech. Expert
Member # 4467
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posted December 18, 2014 09:57 AM
That listed 22-250 ackley is sweet.. I should spend the money before my wife does.. Lol
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--- It's all simple if you know what you are doing ---
Posts: 437 | From: Tucson | Registered: Sep 2013
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TOM64
Knows what it's all about
Member # 561
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posted December 18, 2014 10:18 AM
Jason is a good guy to deal with.
Posts: 2283 | From: okieland | Registered: Feb 2005
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted December 18, 2014 10:22 AM
I'm sure that I'm in the minority but my 22-250Ackley's are 12 and 14" twist. I never desired 70+ grain bullets? Must be useful for something but I don't feel underfed? The thing is, at least for my application, is that the additional speed gained with the improved chamber will help stabilize at least a 65 grain bullet and that's all I have a need for. In other words, it's a trade off. When I found that I was vaporizing 55 grain HP bullets, I moved up, gained ballistic improvement and it was sort of accidental.
I sometimes wonder if people consider RPM when building fast twist barrels? Is there such a thing as over stabilizing? Will all bullets hold together at 350,000RPM? I always understood that about 185,000 is desirable for best accuracy Anybody have different opinion?
Good hunting. El Bee
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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knockemdown
Our staff photo editing Guru, par excellence
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posted December 18, 2014 11:10 AM
I didn't know that 185K rpm was a goal to strive for when chasing accuracy?
Leonard, you'd have to push a .22-250AI REALLY hard to begin to see the magic behind a >70gr .224 caliber boolit.
For launching 50-65grainers, the .22-250AI is at the top of the heap in efficiency. However to push a >70gr boolit fast enough to make pixie dust, one might better served to step up to a more capacious cartridge...
Posts: 2202 | From: behind fascist lines | Registered: Mar 2010
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DanS
Scorched Earth (AZ Sector)
Member # 316
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posted December 18, 2014 01:25 PM
I had one built a few years back. Rem 700, 1-12 SS Shilen, #3 contour @ 24" long. If I remember correctly, my chrono says I am pushing 3800 with the 55's with my accuracy load. I can go faster pretty easily, but why?
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Often Tested, Always Faithful. Brothers Forever!
Posts: 1465 | From: flyover country | Registered: Feb 2004
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted December 18, 2014 02:02 PM
I think it's understood amongst benchresters, Fred. What the long range guys look for, I have no idea, but there is a combination that will yield results better than others. In other words, it's not just velocity, twist and seating depth. There is a sweet spot that takes RPM into consideration. As I asked the question; can you over stabilize a bullet? And, conversely, what RMP is necessary to stabilize various bullets?
It's interesting that places like the Hide, I never hear it mentioned? Somewhere, there is data/info?
Good hunting. El Bee
edit: no interest in pushing a 70 gr. bullet at high enough speed. I tried it once, just because I had the bullets (Berger VLD) and they grouped something like 4" if I remember correctly?
[ December 18, 2014, 02:05 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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jimanaz
2nd Place RICHARD FARNSWORTH LOOK-A-LIKE CONTEST
Member # 3689
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posted December 18, 2014 04:19 PM
When I was kicking the idea of a 250AI around, I was captured by the lore surrounding the 75gr AMAX. If you look into it, it's pretty amazing that a bullet launched significantly slower can actually chase down, and pass a lighter bullet at longer ranges. It's a caveat that may not appeal to most, my MPBR doesn't compare to those launching lighter bullets 5 or 6 hundred fps faster. But at extended ranges, given the time, there is definitely an advantage in the fast twist/heavy bullet combination. I don't have any regrets in what I built. It does what I wanted it to, and crushes coyotes at normal calling distance too.
Posts: 940 | From: AZ | Registered: Oct 2010
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jimanaz
2nd Place RICHARD FARNSWORTH LOOK-A-LIKE CONTEST
Member # 3689
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posted December 18, 2014 04:34 PM
Meant to include this, but forgot. This is not a shot, Leonard, so don't take it that way.
Remember a while back when Tony Tebbe was quoted saying he's killed ????? coyotes? He was ripped for it.
quote:
I used that Swift damned near exclusively for fifteen years, killed several thousand coyotes with it.
I'm sure you killed many a coyote with that Swift, but...
Several, in my mind constitutes more than a few, so say 4K. 4K coyotes in fifteen years translates to 266 coyote/per. Wasn't there, not saying it didn't happen. But, it is the internet. Be careful.
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TOM64
Knows what it's all about
Member # 561
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posted December 18, 2014 05:17 PM
I don't know, does the bullet spin faster than 1 turn in 8" if you drive it faster? Stabilizing is something I don't see you can do too well. What I do see is a flaw in a bullet showing up at higher RPM's.
I built a 243AI with an 8 twist to shoot 105 Amax's and it shoots them fine. Cuzz built 6MM Rem AI and his 26" barrel shoots the 87 gr V max around 3575 fps if I remember right. My 105's are averaging 3170 fps.
We were shooting a 6" steel plate at 700 yards the other day with a pretty good wind. We both dial elevation and hold wind. He was holding 18" outside the plate, I was holding a foot. We both swung the plate at will once we called the wind. BTW, this is what the wind was doing to me at 100 yards that day.
 [/URL]
What I took away from that is they all work, I could've (and did) overestimate the wind and ranging and dialing is pretty easy at any velocity with any BC. (As long as you can get there)
Given a flatter trajectory out to 400 yards is most useful in killing coyotes, I'm gonna try the 55 gr NBT in my 243AI and see how that does. Kelly says it does pretty good at 4100 or so...
Posts: 2283 | From: okieland | Registered: Feb 2005
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UTcaller
NEVADA NIGHT FIGHTER
Member # 8
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posted December 18, 2014 05:33 PM
Just my opinion here, but for coyotes shot with that a .22 caliber especially the 22-250 AI the holy grail of bullets that i have found are 60-65 grain bullets. Sure the 50's and 55's kill lots of coyote at amazing speeds 3900-4200+ fps. Same can be said for the 70+ grain bullets shot at slower speeds. But for that perfect bullet weight/speed combo i think the 60-65's are tough to beat. .280-.295 B.C running 3700-3900 fps is some serious Coyote medicine as Leonard would say. If I were looking at shooting the heavier bullets I would go up to a .243 or 6mm. And the lighter stuff I would have stuck with my standard .22-250. This cartridge shines with those 60-65 grain stuff.
Disclaimer: this is my opinion for called Coyote ranges say 0-400 yards
Good Hunting Chad
[ December 18, 2014, 05:46 PM: Message edited by: UTcaller ]
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted December 18, 2014 06:03 PM
*reply to Jimanez
I certainly agree, that sounds like more than I intended to convey? And, I was thinking "several" in the traditional sense, a couple is two and three is several. About 3K, not four.
So, let's see what I can do with the numbers. First of all, it could have been more than fifteen years, but less than twenty, for sure.
Second, only half or in some cases, one third of the body count belonged to me, even if I might have shot more than 50% which was very likely. We always split animals, no matter if I'm on the light or shooting all night.
If it was 16 years, that's 95 each per year, for a "couple people". A three man team, it's 62 or so? I can't tell you right now how many years I hunted three men and how many, two man, during those particular years.
Those are just ball park figures anyway, and a good percentage happened during the fur boom when we were ranging as far out as Wyoming because Rock Springs was one of the few places that took coyotes in the round, back then. Many divorces occurred during those years.
Anyway, that's all I can come up with, off the cuff. We killed a lot, (actually, an unbelievable amount) of animals back in the day, Amigo. Okay, Amigo ? ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Good hunting. El Bee
edit: now as to what Chad said above, I pretty much agree with all of it. For some reason, I decided 430 yards was a reasonable distance for called coyotes. Any more than that, diminishing returns, you waste a lot of time and sometimes they aren't anchored as well as you would like and sometimes, they aren't marked good enough to recover a high percentage. Lastly, at that velocity, I feel that the 62, 64, and 65 grain bullets are the cat's ass.
edit: should mention that ALL those 220Swift kills were done with the 52 grain Speer Gold, at least my part and we/all pretty much used the same rifle, at night.
[ December 18, 2014, 06:14 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted December 18, 2014 08:59 PM
Did that guy bunch me with Tony Tebbe?
I was just out reloading, and chewing on this thread. Man, is that a low blow or what?
You know, I really don't do a hell of a lot of bragging. (but see my sig line)
[ December 18, 2014, 09:02 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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DAA
Utah/Promoted WESTERN REGIONAL Hunt Director
Member # 11
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posted December 19, 2014 04:23 AM
quote:
Given a flatter trajectory out to 400 yards is most useful in killing coyotes, I'm gonna try the 55 gr NBT in my 243AI and see how that does. Kelly says it does pretty good at 4100 or so...
Tom, that's what I've been running in my 6/284 too, at over 4250. Kills coyotes real, real good. Out of about 100, I've only had a couple even take a step.
- DAA
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"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter
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knockemdown
Our staff photo editing Guru, par excellence
Member # 3588
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posted December 19, 2014 05:55 AM
Thanks Leonard, I hadn't a clue that some sought to balance their load/barrel toward a certain rpm. Those bench dudes are apparently more anal/crazy then I thought!
Far as "over-stabilizing" a bullet, I don't think it matters from an accuracy standpoint. As long as the bullet is reaching the target in one piece, I see no worries?
However, I do believe its entirely possible to spin a bullet fast enough to where the copper jacket becomes compromised to the point of negatively affecting terminal performance on a critter. So, in certain cases, "over stabilizing" might translate into less than favorable killing ability. Lack of penetration, splashes & whatnot...
Essentially, the bullet itself becomes the limiting factor in a fast twist hotrod.
The thing that intrigued me so much about a fast twist .224 was it's ability to (ballistically) hang with much larger cases at distance, yet still produce enough MV to maintain a very respectable MPBR that more than covers shots @ 'normal' calling distance.
I hashed this out a while back. At 400yds, stepping up to a fast twist .22-243AI from a slow twist .22-250AI allows for ~30% better wind bucking ability and ~30% more retained energy, while giving up only ~2" in bullet drop.
The pixie dust penalty, is having to burn ~10 more grains of powder to see the magic...
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KaBloomR
Knows what it's all about
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posted December 19, 2014 09:31 AM
"over" stabilize? Is the word not a misnomer? Isn't something either stable or unstable?
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted December 19, 2014 09:34 AM
I kinda allowed for that when I had my second 25'06Ackley built. I settled on 100 grain bullets @ a little over 3600fps. It has a 13 twist barrel. The finished rifle weighs 21 pounds. There are so many ways of skinning this cat, it boggles the mind.
(and)Everybody has a dream.
Good hunting. El Bee
edit: kabloom, in my definition, it's when the projectile comes apart due to centrifugal force. Failure of the jacket material or minute imbalance, etc. So, perhaps a misnomer, "over stabilized" is catastrophic failure.
[ December 19, 2014, 09:41 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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R.Shaw
Peanut Butter Man, da da da da DAH!
Member # 73
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posted December 19, 2014 09:39 AM
My question is this..
Do the 22 caliber 75 gr.bullets that are running slower, perform as well as the 55's that are running faster? I am talking about normal coyote ranges of 100-200 yards.
With the 55's,upon impact, I hear a very audible thump, not a crack which is the result of bone or skull, but a sound which is similar to using a 2x4 to hit a burlap bag filled with ground feed. Do you guys hear the same thing?
I have shot many different calibers and bullet weights over the years and have never heard this sound with any of them. Also, the performance has never been equaled with this combination as well. Again, talking normal coyote ranges.
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DAA
Utah/Promoted WESTERN REGIONAL Hunt Director
Member # 11
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posted December 19, 2014 11:55 AM
Randy, with my 6-284 and the 55 NBT's, a typical facing shot sounds like an axe handle hitting a rotten pumpkin. Just a real fleshy, wet sounding "WHUMP".
With my .17 and 30 gr. bullets, it sounds more like the "WHOP" of a guy catching a line drive right in the pocket.
- DAA
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"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter
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