This is topic Coyotes w the new can.. in forum Predator forum at The New Huntmastersbbs!.
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Posted by Fur_n_Dirt (Member # 4467) on December 13, 2014, 11:58 AM:
I tried the new suppressor yesterday afternoon, got lucky called in three for three..
I also tried some new subsonic ammo in hollow point. This stuff is amazing! So quiet, like a mice fart..
The subsonic round was used for the first stand. She came in five yards to the caller and I placed a nice shot .. After recovery , I noticed it zipped right though the body , but found her about 100 yards from the stand..
Next I wanted to compare with a full velocity round. I like this much better, the shot hit him hard and he dropped fast.. My ears felt the first shot slightly since I was in a wash, but the second one was fine. No hearing protection.
Any case, it was fun. The subsonic is not really practical, but if you had a scent dog and wanted more of a challenge, its worth a try..
If I can find a hollow point that is safe for the suppressor, that's the method I will choose...
Posted by DanS (Member # 316) on December 13, 2014, 01:07 PM:
Are HP's not recommended for suppressors?
Posted by Fur_n_Dirt (Member # 4467) on December 13, 2014, 01:39 PM:
If you read the manuals, NO, HP's are not recommended ..
However, I found some threads that said ok.. At the range, I got distracted and started using HP's at full velocity and ended up shooting about 6 before I pulled my head out of my ass..
No apparent issues and accuracy was great.. Screwing one up would be painful..
[ December 14, 2014, 09:16 AM: Message edited by: Fur_n_Dirt ]
Posted by Lungbuster (Member # 630) on December 13, 2014, 02:22 PM:
Why is it recommended not to use HPs? What could happen?
Is that a 300Black?
[ December 13, 2014, 02:22 PM: Message edited by: Lungbuster ]
Posted by Fur_n_Dirt (Member # 4467) on December 13, 2014, 04:09 PM:
The pressures in the suppressor are very different than a bullet leaving a muzzle without one.. Using a frangible bullet type , it could breakup in the suppressor which of course would end the fun in a hurry..
I'm new to cans, so I'm still looking for hard evidence that using a high quality HP is fine.. I wouldn't be using those soft tips though!
Posted by Fur_n_Dirt (Member # 4467) on December 13, 2014, 04:11 PM:
Oh that's not the black out.. Folks using the black out are shooting 190 grains in the 900'ish range..
Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on December 13, 2014, 07:23 PM:
The hole in the baffles are not much bigger than bore size so if a bullet opens up or wobbles, a baffle strike could destroy the supressor.
What can did you go with?
Posted by Prune Picker (Member # 4107) on December 13, 2014, 10:34 PM:
Fur_ if you're looking to reload subsonic you might try the Sierra 63gr. SMP #1370 & H4895 powder. The Sierra #1370 bullet was designed to expand at lower velocities typical of the smaller case .224 center fires and H4895 powder is very useable for reduced power subsonic loads. Maybe give Hodgdon Tech a call for info.
Posted by Fur_n_Dirt (Member # 4467) on December 14, 2014, 10:06 AM:
Tom,
Still playing around.. But using black hills in 55 grain match HP appears to be a winner.. This is the round I used through the Trek suppressor and no issues so far..
In terms of subsonic, I think I found a winner.. Right to bear ammo is great stuff.. Great accuracy and completely safe and designed for suppressors using HP..
Just wish it had more kinetic energy.. Some days even a full velocity .223 rounds seems light for coyotes.
Right to bear ammo
Prune, thanks for the suggestions..
[ December 14, 2014, 10:07 AM: Message edited by: Fur_n_Dirt ]
Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on December 14, 2014, 01:07 PM:
I can't imagine a 223 pushing any bullet fast enough for baffle strike to be a problem but I guess it's an easy way out for the mfg's.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 14, 2014, 07:06 PM:
That's what I think. I built a suppressor a long time ago for use with my AR. Bullets were any reject that didn't perform in my 220Swift, including a number of HP designs. Nobody ever told me a HP wouldn't work? Of course, I wasn't blabbing about it much, since I was a little concerned about legalities.
I didn't notice any difference between one bullet design and another. I just didn't think much of the AR platform, in general, compared to my Swift. Sometimes, I needed two or three bullets on a fussing coyote, unheard of, with the Swift.
A brief history of my weapon of choice for predators began with the only centerfire I owned, a Mauser chambered in 270 Win. Then I got a model 660 in 6MM while I was having a 25'06Ackley built. Between those two, seemed to cover all the bases, until New Years Eve 1975 when they were stolen along with my Combat Commander, my entire arsenal.
Insurance screwed with me and left just enough $ to buy a Ruger 77 in the brand new, (at the time) 220Swift chambering. I used that Swift damned near exclusively for fifteen years, killed several thousand coyotes with it.
Then, providentially, I discovered the 22-250Ackley. Still have the Swift, pretty much relegated a loaner.
Good hunting. El Bee
Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on December 14, 2014, 07:56 PM:
I've never shot a swift but now have the 22-250AI.
I remember reading about a govt trapper Frank Glaiser in AK shooting wolves and grizzly along with about everything else up there with his swift. He stated that with a little heavier built bullet, it would be the best grizzly killer out there.
I love my 22-250AI but think I'd grab a bigger gun if grizzly were on the agenda.
Posted by Fur_n_Dirt (Member # 4467) on December 15, 2014, 05:31 PM:
I'm going to retire the AR platform for coyotes.. I hate how loud it is to chamber.. Bullets scratch each time it's chambered.. The gun gets hung up on my clothes.. And I've had coyotes run with the sound of taking the safety off..
That 22-250AI sures has my interest right now! I can even use my trek suppressor on it. :-)
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 15, 2014, 06:53 PM:
Fur, I think you are arriving at the place I was at many years ago. Like they say...
But, really, the chambering bullshit always bothered me, then unloading it seems to be too much trouble for some people and I don't like an AR with a chambered round in the truck.
You have hit on all of them, including snagging parts on clothing and it just being an awkward unbalanced rifle. Lots of safeties are loud enough that a predator can hear it but there doesn't seem to be a way that AR can be eased off, as some others can be.
I mean, I just read about some asshole lawyer suing Bushmaster and everybody he could think of in that deal back east, claiming it's a weapon of war, etc. I don't know how they ever gained the moral high ground, but when they lie with a straight face, and people who are afraid of guns believe every word, well, you start from in a hole and try to climb out of it, which can be hard to do.
And then, you sound like a smart boy to be considering a 22-250Ackley. This is a cartridge to outperforms the 220Swift in every measurable way, possibly the complete and total answer to the subject of coyote medicine we will ever see?
Good hunting. El Bee
[ December 15, 2014, 06:54 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by R.Shaw (Member # 73) on December 15, 2014, 08:19 PM:
quote:
And then, you sound like a smart boy to be considering a 22-250Ackley. This is a cartridge to outperforms the 220Swift in every measurable way, possibly the complete and total answer to the subject of coyote medicine we will ever see?
Exactly my thoughts as well.
Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on December 16, 2014, 08:22 AM:
Couldn't agree more about the 22-250 AI. Been shooting mine for about 3 years and it has been the best Coyote medicine as Leonard puts it that I have shot. I have found the 60 grain Berger hp with a stiff dose of RL-15 to work great at around 3800 fps.
Good Hunting Chad
Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on December 16, 2014, 05:20 PM:
Chamber in the truck and rotate safety with left hand, like you're turning a key.
Some like AR's and some don't but for the most part, the ones people don't like, I don't either. A good carbine is hard to beat for close up stuff.
But then again, the 22-250AI seems to do everything well.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 16, 2014, 06:37 PM:
Although I can't warm up to the AR platform, I will defend it against those ignorant people that claim it is an assault rifle, for war, just for killing humans. It's just a semi-auto, legal for at least a hundred years.
But, it's really hard to find fault with a decent bolt action chambered in 22-250Ackley. I think I have been using one since the early mid 90's? There is just no flies on this puppy.
The performance is beyond 220Swift, and as a Swift user, the amazing part is, No neck trimming!
Using a Swift as long as I did, the cases grow and need constant trimming, you simply cannot ignore this fact, as a handloader.
Armed with this knowledge, it's pretty hard to understand that the 22-250AI never needs trimming to length; because of the shoulder design. Oh sure, you could convert a Swift to the Ackley shoulder but why?
At one time, (and I have been pounding the keyboard for more than twenty years) nobody ever heard of a 22-250Ackley. I modestly believe that I might deserve just a small amount of credit for the popularity of this terrific cartridge? All in favor, say aye.
Good hunting. El Bee
Posted by Fur_n_Dirt (Member # 4467) on December 16, 2014, 06:57 PM:
I apologize if this has been discussed before, but can we discuss the pros and cons to 22-250 vs. 22-250AI..
What I know at this point is that the AI gives u at least an additional 150 ft/s... And 22-250 AI ammo is not stocked at sportsmans! Lol..
Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on December 16, 2014, 08:05 PM:
I'm a long time vanilla 22-250 user and it's worse drawback is the case trimming. It can be pushed plenty fast but at the price of case life and the aforementioned case trimming.
Punch it out and you not only no longer need to trim cases but the cases take more powder, give more velocity and last longer.
Edit to add; while Ackly ammo isn't sold in stores, your Ackleyed gun shoots vanilla ammo just fine.
[ December 16, 2014, 08:08 PM: Message edited by: TOM64 ]
Posted by Dave Allen (Member # 3102) on December 17, 2014, 12:06 PM:
Mr Fur: this is just my humble opinion. If a guy doesn't reload and has no interest in doing so.
I would say just get a 22/250 it's a fine coyote round. When you start getting into custom barrels and all that stuff and you reload already.
It just makes sense in my mind to go Ackley, a little more horse power and has been mentioned no case trimming, plus a loaded round, with the blown out shoulder, looks friggin' sexy !!
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 17, 2014, 12:36 PM:
I don't know if it's "a little more horsepower"?
I have a 64 grain bullet @ 3925fps in my ackley. Most often, a 22-250Remington can get about 3700fps from a 55 grain bullet. That's significant.
And, if I was looking for pure speed, the Ackley can drive a 55grain bullet at 4200fps, quite easily.
But, yes, al things considered, it's a hand loading proposition. And, what's wrong with that?
Good hunting. El Bee
Posted by Dave Allen (Member # 3102) on December 17, 2014, 12:43 PM:
WOW, I stand corrected.
Thanks for that info Leonard. I didn't realize there was that much of a jump in horsepower if you will.
Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on December 17, 2014, 01:38 PM:
You have to remember Leonard uses loooong barrels for his shooters too but even my 22" barrel will get the 150 fps boost easily. I'm shooting the 55 gr Nosler's at 3824 fps which matched my 50 gr load and I just quit looking after that.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 17, 2014, 03:01 PM:
Yeah, and I might be blessed with an exceptional barrel but no doubt, the Ackley version is a step up in class. Over the Swift, which is a better performer than the stock 22-250Remington.
But, if that's all you got, it will still kill coyotes. I'm working at beyond normal ranges and at night where it is sometimes hard to estimate correctly and a little flatter trajectory helps.
Don't worry about being "corrected" Dave. These things are on demand, when you need the information is soon enough. Lots of gaps in my knowledge and everybody else's.
Good hunting. El Bee
edit: also, that^ particular rifle is a truck gun, weighs 18.5 pounds with a benchrest stock. It's very comfortable to shoot at night. Doesn't get used all that much but when it does, they don't run off.
[ December 17, 2014, 03:05 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by Fur_n_Dirt (Member # 4467) on December 17, 2014, 07:00 PM:
Ok, I'm getting horny over this 22-250 AI.. Lol
Two options I see .. 1) buy a gun new or used and switch barrel or 2) buy one w the Ackly barrel.
Any vendor suggestions where I can buy or build one for under $1200?
Thanks guys!
Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on December 17, 2014, 07:47 PM:
Buy a Rem 700 22-250 as cheap as you can, send it to your smith, have it set back, trued and rechambered. Work should be less than $200
Or if you're like me and want a faster twist, have a Douglas barrel screwed on for less than $300. Douglas may not be top of the line but I've been pleased with mine.
Posted by Lonny (Member # 19) on December 17, 2014, 08:49 PM:
A fast-twist 22-250AI is on my short list.
Tom, what is your favored bullet in your 250 AI?
Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on December 17, 2014, 08:57 PM:
I built this little Montana to shoot 75 gr A-max's but I never did get em to group good enough. I ran out of time and tried the 55 gr NBT's and they shot great at a decent speed (3824 fps) so I just started killing things with it. I need to play with a few more loads but this thing is a 6.5 lb. Giant slayer as is.
[/URL]
It's a 1/8 twist Douglas barrel, same contour as the original barrel at 22". I killed a few coyotes and a couple of hogs then it was spring so I put it away and got side tracked this past summer.
[ December 17, 2014, 09:03 PM: Message edited by: TOM64 ]
Posted by CrossJ (Member # 884) on December 17, 2014, 09:03 PM:
In my opinion, the 22-250 AI is as close as you can get to the 'perfect' coyote rifle. Of course, this has been stated already. 3980 fps with a 55g nosler down a 26" lilja 1:12.
maintain
Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on December 18, 2014, 04:54 AM:
Lonny, if you are looking for 'turn key', there is a really nicely appointed .22-250AI listed F/S on Snipers Hide classifieds.
Hide linky
Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on December 18, 2014, 05:50 AM:
What is this case trimming you guys speak of?
After measuring my .22-250 chambers for their actual length, I never trimmed a .22-250 case again. Ever.
Same is true for pretty much all my rifles. Knowing how long those cases can actually grow, rather than going by the "book", I just don't bother to trim anything. Ever.
I have a 27" Lilja 12T .22-250AI that is huffing and puffing and getting on the short side of primer pocket life to reach 3800 fps with 55's, too. Have had faster ones for sure. Not all of them will live up to expectations.
- DAA
Posted by Fur_n_Dirt (Member # 4467) on December 18, 2014, 09:57 AM:
That listed 22-250 ackley is sweet.. I should spend the money before my wife does.. Lol
Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on December 18, 2014, 10:18 AM:
Jason is a good guy to deal with.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 18, 2014, 10:22 AM:
I'm sure that I'm in the minority but my 22-250Ackley's are 12 and 14" twist. I never desired 70+ grain bullets? Must be useful for something but I don't feel underfed? The thing is, at least for my application, is that the additional speed gained with the improved chamber will help stabilize at least a 65 grain bullet and that's all I have a need for. In other words, it's a trade off. When I found that I was vaporizing 55 grain HP bullets, I moved up, gained ballistic improvement and it was sort of accidental.
I sometimes wonder if people consider RPM when building fast twist barrels? Is there such a thing as over stabilizing? Will all bullets hold together at 350,000RPM? I always understood that about 185,000 is desirable for best accuracy Anybody have different opinion?
Good hunting. El Bee
Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on December 18, 2014, 11:10 AM:
I didn't know that 185K rpm was a goal to strive for when chasing accuracy?
Leonard, you'd have to push a .22-250AI REALLY hard to begin to see the magic behind a >70gr .224 caliber boolit.
For launching 50-65grainers, the .22-250AI is at the top of the heap in efficiency. However to push a >70gr boolit fast enough to make pixie dust, one might better served to step up to a more capacious cartridge...
Posted by DanS (Member # 316) on December 18, 2014, 01:25 PM:
I had one built a few years back. Rem 700, 1-12 SS Shilen, #3 contour @ 24" long. If I remember correctly, my chrono says I am pushing 3800 with the 55's with my accuracy load. I can go faster pretty easily, but why?
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 18, 2014, 02:02 PM:
I think it's understood amongst benchresters, Fred. What the long range guys look for, I have no idea, but there is a combination that will yield results better than others. In other words, it's not just velocity, twist and seating depth. There is a sweet spot that takes RPM into consideration. As I asked the question; can you over stabilize a bullet? And, conversely, what RMP is necessary to stabilize various bullets?
It's interesting that places like the Hide, I never hear it mentioned? Somewhere, there is data/info?
Good hunting. El Bee
edit: no interest in pushing a 70 gr. bullet at high enough speed. I tried it once, just because I had the bullets (Berger VLD) and they grouped something like 4" if I remember correctly?
[ December 18, 2014, 02:05 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by jimanaz (Member # 3689) on December 18, 2014, 04:19 PM:
When I was kicking the idea of a 250AI around, I was captured by the lore surrounding the 75gr AMAX. If you look into it, it's pretty amazing that a bullet launched significantly slower can actually chase down, and pass a lighter bullet at longer ranges. It's a caveat that may not appeal to most, my MPBR doesn't compare to those launching lighter bullets 5 or 6 hundred fps faster. But at extended ranges, given the time, there is definitely an advantage in the fast twist/heavy bullet combination. I don't have any regrets in what I built. It does what I wanted it to, and crushes coyotes at normal calling distance too.
Posted by jimanaz (Member # 3689) on December 18, 2014, 04:34 PM:
Meant to include this, but forgot. This is not a shot, Leonard, so don't take it that way.
Remember a while back when Tony Tebbe was quoted saying he's killed ????? coyotes? He was ripped for it.
quote:
I used that Swift damned near exclusively for fifteen years, killed several thousand coyotes with it.
I'm sure you killed many a coyote with that Swift, but...
Several, in my mind constitutes more than a few, so say 4K. 4K coyotes in fifteen years translates to 266 coyote/per. Wasn't there, not saying it didn't happen. But, it is the internet. Be careful.
Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on December 18, 2014, 05:17 PM:
I don't know, does the bullet spin faster than 1 turn in 8" if you drive it faster? Stabilizing is something I don't see you can do too well. What I do see is a flaw in a bullet showing up at higher RPM's.
I built a 243AI with an 8 twist to shoot 105 Amax's and it shoots them fine. Cuzz built 6MM Rem AI and his 26" barrel shoots the 87 gr V max around 3575 fps if I remember right. My 105's are averaging 3170 fps.
We were shooting a 6" steel plate at 700 yards the other day with a pretty good wind. We both dial elevation and hold wind. He was holding 18" outside the plate, I was holding a foot. We both swung the plate at will once we called the wind. BTW, this is what the wind was doing to me at 100 yards that day.
[/URL]
What I took away from that is they all work, I could've (and did) overestimate the wind and ranging and dialing is pretty easy at any velocity with any BC. (As long as you can get there)
Given a flatter trajectory out to 400 yards is most useful in killing coyotes, I'm gonna try the 55 gr NBT in my 243AI and see how that does. Kelly says it does pretty good at 4100 or so...
Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on December 18, 2014, 05:33 PM:
Just my opinion here, but for coyotes shot with that a .22 caliber especially the 22-250 AI the holy grail of bullets that i have found are 60-65 grain bullets. Sure the 50's and 55's kill lots of coyote at amazing speeds 3900-4200+ fps. Same can be said for the 70+ grain bullets shot at slower speeds. But for that perfect bullet weight/speed combo i think the 60-65's are tough to beat. .280-.295 B.C running 3700-3900 fps is some serious Coyote medicine as Leonard would say. If I were looking at shooting the heavier bullets I would go up to a .243 or 6mm. And the lighter stuff I would have stuck with my standard .22-250. This cartridge shines with those 60-65 grain stuff.
Disclaimer: this is my opinion for called Coyote ranges say 0-400 yards
Good Hunting Chad
[ December 18, 2014, 05:46 PM: Message edited by: UTcaller ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 18, 2014, 06:03 PM:
*reply to Jimanez
I certainly agree, that sounds like more than I intended to convey? And, I was thinking "several" in the traditional sense, a couple is two and three is several. About 3K, not four.
So, let's see what I can do with the numbers. First of all, it could have been more than fifteen years, but less than twenty, for sure.
Second, only half or in some cases, one third of the body count belonged to me, even if I might have shot more than 50% which was very likely. We always split animals, no matter if I'm on the light or shooting all night.
If it was 16 years, that's 95 each per year, for a "couple people". A three man team, it's 62 or so? I can't tell you right now how many years I hunted three men and how many, two man, during those particular years.
Those are just ball park figures anyway, and a good percentage happened during the fur boom when we were ranging as far out as Wyoming because Rock Springs was one of the few places that took coyotes in the round, back then. Many divorces occurred during those years.
Anyway, that's all I can come up with, off the cuff. We killed a lot, (actually, an unbelievable amount) of animals back in the day, Amigo. Okay, Amigo ? ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Good hunting. El Bee
edit: now as to what Chad said above, I pretty much agree with all of it. For some reason, I decided 430 yards was a reasonable distance for called coyotes. Any more than that, diminishing returns, you waste a lot of time and sometimes they aren't anchored as well as you would like and sometimes, they aren't marked good enough to recover a high percentage. Lastly, at that velocity, I feel that the 62, 64, and 65 grain bullets are the cat's ass.
edit: should mention that ALL those 220Swift kills were done with the 52 grain Speer Gold, at least my part and we/all pretty much used the same rifle, at night.
[ December 18, 2014, 06:14 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 18, 2014, 08:59 PM:
Did that guy bunch me with Tony Tebbe?
I was just out reloading, and chewing on this thread. Man, is that a low blow or what?
You know, I really don't do a hell of a lot of bragging. (but see my sig line)
[ December 18, 2014, 09:02 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on December 19, 2014, 04:23 AM:
quote:
Given a flatter trajectory out to 400 yards is most useful in killing coyotes, I'm gonna try the 55 gr NBT in my 243AI and see how that does. Kelly says it does pretty good at 4100 or so...
Tom, that's what I've been running in my 6/284 too, at over 4250. Kills coyotes real, real good. Out of about 100, I've only had a couple even take a step.
- DAA
Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on December 19, 2014, 05:55 AM:
Thanks Leonard, I hadn't a clue that some sought to balance their load/barrel toward a certain rpm. Those bench dudes are apparently more anal/crazy then I thought!
Far as "over-stabilizing" a bullet, I don't think it matters from an accuracy standpoint. As long as the bullet is reaching the target in one piece, I see no worries?
However, I do believe its entirely possible to spin a bullet fast enough to where the copper jacket becomes compromised to the point of negatively affecting terminal performance on a critter. So, in certain cases, "over stabilizing" might translate into less than favorable killing ability. Lack of penetration, splashes & whatnot...
Essentially, the bullet itself becomes the limiting factor in a fast twist hotrod.
The thing that intrigued me so much about a fast twist .224 was it's ability to (ballistically) hang with much larger cases at distance, yet still produce enough MV to maintain a very respectable MPBR that more than covers shots @ 'normal' calling distance.
I hashed this out a while back. At 400yds, stepping up to a fast twist .22-243AI from a slow twist .22-250AI allows for ~30% better wind bucking ability and ~30% more retained energy, while giving up only ~2" in bullet drop.
The pixie dust penalty, is having to burn ~10 more grains of powder to see the magic...
Posted by KaBloomR (Member # 4252) on December 19, 2014, 09:31 AM:
"over" stabilize? Is the word not a misnomer? Isn't something either stable or unstable?
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 19, 2014, 09:34 AM:
I kinda allowed for that when I had my second 25'06Ackley built. I settled on 100 grain bullets @ a little over 3600fps. It has a 13 twist barrel. The finished rifle weighs 21 pounds. There are so many ways of skinning this cat, it boggles the mind.
(and)Everybody has a dream.
Good hunting. El Bee
edit: kabloom, in my definition, it's when the projectile comes apart due to centrifugal force. Failure of the jacket material or minute imbalance, etc. So, perhaps a misnomer, "over stabilized" is catastrophic failure.
[ December 19, 2014, 09:41 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by R.Shaw (Member # 73) on December 19, 2014, 09:39 AM:
My question is this..
Do the 22 caliber 75 gr.bullets that are running slower, perform as well as the 55's that are running faster? I am talking about normal coyote ranges of 100-200 yards.
With the 55's,upon impact, I hear a very audible thump, not a crack which is the result of bone or skull, but a sound which is similar to using a 2x4 to hit a burlap bag filled with ground feed. Do you guys hear the same thing?
I have shot many different calibers and bullet weights over the years and have never heard this sound with any of them. Also, the performance has never been equaled with this combination as well. Again, talking normal coyote ranges.
Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on December 19, 2014, 11:55 AM:
Randy, with my 6-284 and the 55 NBT's, a typical facing shot sounds like an axe handle hitting a rotten pumpkin. Just a real fleshy, wet sounding "WHUMP".
With my .17 and 30 gr. bullets, it sounds more like the "WHOP" of a guy catching a line drive right in the pocket.
- DAA
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 19, 2014, 12:13 PM:
I would describe the sound as a clap with cupped hands. To me, it's a unique sound and unmistakable when assessing whether or not the animal is hit and is out there, dead. The sound has been the deciding fact when searching for a down animal. Rocks and dirt and tree limbs either make an ambiguous sound or maybe no sound that filters back to the ear. But that "hollow pumpkin sound" is irrefutable proof, all you have to do is find him.
Also, the sound does not mean a cripple, it means BANG/FLOP.
Good hunting. El Bee
PS distance to the target plays a part. If it's too close, hard to distinguish. If too far, maybe the wind currents cause a problem, especially with my bad hearing!
Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on December 19, 2014, 12:34 PM:
I haven't shot many at all with mine, but a 75Amax provides for quite an audible "thawump".
Consider these #s, .224 caliber:
55gr @ 4000fps. Impact velocity @ 200yds is ~3140fps.
75gr @ 3600fps. Impact velocity @ 200yds is ~3100fps.
Naturally, more bullet mass translates to higher retained energy on target. And the startling disparity in velocity loss again shows how a bullet's high b.c. is the gift that keeps on giving...
Again, this is not an apples to apples cartridge comparison, as the .22-243AI is a much larger case.
Posted by Melvis (Member # 4518) on December 19, 2014, 02:51 PM:
so ive been try to justify the AI improvement to my 22-250 everybody says just do it i wont regret it but accodring to balistics calculators ive used with 55 grn bullet i use i would gain 100 fps (3722 to 3635)and loose 1 inch of drop (-18.4 to -19.6) at 400 yds.
i guess im not seeing the huge plus? somebody please knock the sense into me
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 19, 2014, 03:12 PM:
If you don't see it, don't do it.
First of all, me personally have never advocated punching a factory barrel. As you said, you would lose an inch, which is not such a big deal, but it is kinda swimming upstream, for the cost involved.
Second, if you are satisfied with the performance you are getting, terminally and accuracy wise, then <shrug>
By the time you factor gunsmith fees, assuming you have him do the accuracy work, the cost of a premium barrel is a significant part, but just part.
So when you crunch the numbers, you may see a significant increase in performance, but maybe not? Every barrel is different, nobody is going to guarantee a certain improvement in velocity...but that's the way to bet.
You still get increased serviceability from your brass and never need to trim necks. I routinely get ten+ reloading from an Ackley chamber, and I load moderately hot, short of flat primers.
There are probably other reasons, if you have a positive attitude, but if you are skeptical, you are probably better off using what you got.
OH BTW Welcome to the New HuntmastersBBS.com. Glad to have you on board.
Good hunting. El Bee
Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on December 19, 2014, 03:25 PM:
Greetings Melvis.
Where-abouts in Washington are you from; The Wet-Side or the Western-Idaho side ??
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
(I lived in Oly for a while)
Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on December 19, 2014, 03:26 PM:
I have been in love with the Ackley cases since I fired my first 25-06AI. They just look mean and if I'm gonna have a barrel put on, it's gonna have an AI chamber.
Some chamberings do better than others and to me, the 22-250 just begs to be improved. I have a new 223AI that should be close to my old 22-250 load if I ever get around to shooting it.
100fps probably ain't worth it if it shoots good now but once it wears out, a new barrel with an Ackley chamber might surprise you. It did me.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 19, 2014, 03:27 PM:
quote:
I haven't shot many at all with mine, but a 75Amax provides for quite an audible "thawump".
Consider these #s, .224 caliber:
55gr @ 4000fps. Impact velocity @ 200yds is ~3140fps.
75gr @ 3600fps. Impact velocity @ 200yds is ~3100fps.
Naturally, more bullet mass translates to higher retained energy on target. And the startling disparity in velocity loss again shows how a bullet's high b.c. is the gift that keeps on giving...
Again, this is not an apples to apples cartridge comparison, as the .22-243AI is a much larger case. (knockem)
what follows is why "this guy" manages to piss people off. I apologize, the Devil made me do it. (via email)
okay, now I lost it; BRB
Quote he who shall not be named:
Fred is suffering from BC of the brain from watching to many sniper movies.. LOL (even does the little finger thingy with his trigger finger)LOL
Sure B.C. has its merits if your a target shooter but does very little in the coyote hunting world and a great B.C. bullet is just wasted on 300-500 yds coyotes. He either hunts at home or down with Kelly and neither places allows a hunter much for long distance shots and what shots they get can be made with a lesser B.C. bullet.. Oh but you have all that energy that a heavier bullet can provide over a lighter bullet, you think 50 pounds will make that much difference. Fred proved when he shot and crippled that long distance deer energy don't mean squat on a bad hit.. LOL Out to 800 yards a med. weight bullet with less B.C. will work just as good.. Plenty of dead coyotes that have proved it.. For anything over 700 yds. you just need to find a bullet that will travel straight at that distance and be reliable and also at that distance you still need to dial in all the dope, so what's the difference if you turn the dial 2 minutes or 3 minutes... I think I'll go watch the movie shooter again, maybe I missed something..LOL
damn! I didn't ask if I could quote him. GULP!
[ December 19, 2014, 03:31 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by jimanaz (Member # 3689) on December 19, 2014, 05:09 PM:
Well, there's a discussion killer.
Posted by DanS (Member # 316) on December 19, 2014, 05:17 PM:
I am too lazy right now to look up the ballistics. But I wonder how much, say 10-15 mph full value crosswind will blow off a lower BC bullet at 300-500 yards? Would it be enough to miss a coyote facing you straight on?
Those new tipped bullets from Sierra should be fun to play with. I had a 223 Imp put together with a 1-8 twist to shoot the 75 Amax's. It is fun dinging steel out at 600. That is the furthest our range goes. I may punch it out to a 22-250 for more fun.
Hey, whatever trips your trigger. If it isn't illegal or doesn't hurt some innocent people, I say go out and enjoy whatever you can afford.
Posted by Lone Howl (Member # 29) on December 19, 2014, 05:35 PM:
Leonard, forgive me, but...you seriously, and I mean seriously...need a new penpal.
Mark
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 19, 2014, 05:48 PM:
I know, I know!
But, pay no attention to Jimbo, he ain't moderating over here.
Anybody else want to pound on my ass, go ahead.
Good hunting. El Bee
Posted by Dave Allen (Member # 3102) on December 19, 2014, 06:04 PM:
Melvis,
Here's my take. If one has a good shooting 22/250 and one is happy with the results. If it ain't broke don't fix it..
On the other hand. If a guy had a shot out barrel, or is building a semi custom or full blown custom rifle. What the hell ? Might as well go Ackley.
I mean, why not ? My comments are from a guy who has never owned an Ackley. But, that's what, I'm thinking if I'm ever in that situation.
Posted by Melvis (Member # 4518) on December 19, 2014, 06:44 PM:
So here's my thought I shoot a 788 22-250 shoots .75 in groups at 100 without fine tuning the load to the gun. Lots of life left in barrell. When barrel does go it will be AI
Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on December 19, 2014, 07:05 PM:
Maybe i'm missing something here. But how do you figure you're only gaining 100 fps with the 22-250AI over a standard 22-250? I think you'll gain more like 300 fps over the standard 22-250. I know Berger lists the 60 grain bullet at about 3500 fps in the Standard and I'm shooting them 3800 fps and they are not hot loads.
Good Hunting Chad
Posted by Melvis (Member # 4518) on December 19, 2014, 07:08 PM:
Those are the numbers out if the nosler reloading book. Somebody with experience could chime in because I haven't seen it first hand just know what the books says and some of the other post that say 150-200
Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on December 19, 2014, 07:34 PM:
I've got that same book and those numbers are extremely conservative. What I've seen is the Ackley likes to run near max case capacity for better accurracy. Seems like the Nosler manual has it running about 70-75% capacity. My Berger manual has most of the loads in the 90-95% range. And that's where I'm shooting them.
Posted by Melvis (Member # 4518) on December 19, 2014, 07:47 PM:
So what are you getting?
Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on December 19, 2014, 08:01 PM:
3800 fps with the 60 grain Bergers . And I think you could get 3900-4000fps with the 55's. I was actually fireforming with the 55's at about a grain or so over standard .22-250 max. And they were damn near as accurate as my Ackley loads. The fireforming loads were probably running about 3700+ fps .
[ December 19, 2014, 08:30 PM: Message edited by: UTcaller ]
Posted by Melvis (Member # 4518) on December 19, 2014, 08:04 PM:
Well at the rate I'm going killing yotes I'll be putting a new barrel on pretty soon so AI it will be
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 20, 2014, 09:12 AM:
Umm, what is the consensus about an Ackley chamber in a 788? That's a totally different animal, although it gets rave reviews about accuracy, in "stock" configurations.
Initial reaction: shoot it until you can't live with the accuracy any longer...then sell it.
Good hunting. El Bee
Posted by Dave Allen (Member # 3102) on December 20, 2014, 11:02 AM:
I'm with Leonard.
I offered my advice from a generic perspective, if you will. I have a Ruger M77 tang safety, shoots great 22" barrel a pleasure to handle in the field.
When it's gone, it's gone. I like it the way it is @ in all honesty can't imagine making it something it's not. Built in 1981 it's kind of a classic in my mind.
If my mind was made up for a 22/250 Ackley. I'd go off a 700 action. If, I already had one, for sure, I'd make it a Ackley when shot out.
Don't get me wrong. I love old Rugers and the same might apply to a 788. They are what they are in my opinion.
Good luck !!
[ December 20, 2014, 11:05 AM: Message edited by: Dave Allen ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 20, 2014, 11:34 AM:
I have a very old Ruger in 220Swift, (first year of manufacture)
that I could get rid of, since it's seen the best accuracy days, but it's still good enough for minute of coyote. It ain't a Remington but I actually prefer the Mauser type action, in a hunting rifle.
Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on December 20, 2014, 03:45 PM:
I've built 2 Kimbers (Mauser/Win type action but round receiver) and 2 700's. The Kimbers cost $50 more to cut the extractor cutout but I see no reason not to do a 788 or Ruger if that's what you already have. The 788's shot well and could benefit from a good barrel and the Rugers were plagued with some bad barrels but a decent action. If you have one that shoots good now, a better barrel will only help.
700's are just easier to work with, not necasserilly better.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 20, 2014, 06:33 PM:
Lotta peeps would argue that one, Tom. Newer ones, stainless actions, Model 7...maybe yes, maybe no? But the way Ruger action screws are, I don't think it helps guilt edge accuracy, never seen one at a benchers match? But I have seen the occasional Savage and lots of accurized Remington 700's but mostly custom actions.
Anyway, the side rails on any of the Mauser copies, Win. Mod 70, Ruger77, Springfield '03 even a Sako; the charge is they are a bit too springy for accuracy bedding.
However, I like Mausers and the Ruger is as good as any and better than most. It's just that the action screws bug the hell out of me. Not that it doesn't seem logical, I dunno?
Posted by Fur_n_Dirt (Member # 4467) on December 21, 2014, 11:26 AM:
This build is going to happen.. Found a deal on a 22-250 AI 26" mcgowen barrel in 1:12 .. Going to go on the savage platform..
Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on December 21, 2014, 01:29 PM:
Melvis, I think 100 fps, maybe 150 fps, is probably about all you can realistically expect from re-chambering a factory tube where you are losing an inch.
Just my opinion, based on my experience. Which, isn't all that much, I've never had a factory barrel punched out like that myself, just seen and heard about a lot of them.
I have worn out two factory .22-250 barrels, put quite a few rounds on, but not worn out a couple more factory .22-250's, and have worn out three .22-250AI barrels and my fourth one is getting kind of long in the tooth. Again, just my opinion, but all else being equal, I think 150-2000 fps gain is pretty realistic and expecting more might well end in disappointment.
Most of the bigger gains you hear about, you aren't hearing the whole story. Longer, custom barrels with tight, minimum spec custom chambers, can't really be compared to shorter, sloppy factory hardware.
- DAA
Posted by Fur_n_Dirt (Member # 4467) on December 24, 2014, 03:25 PM:
Decisions decisions !
I am definitely putting a can on my 22-250 ackley build.. However my can is around 7 inches, so put that on a 26" barrel and that's a long stick!
Thinking of a compromise and shortening the barrel by 4" to 22". From my estimations , that would provide me 22-250 performance from an ackley round..
Found a thorough study that showed decrease is around 32 fps per inch barrel.
Hmmmm..
Ps bought a practically brand new Stevens 200 in 22-250 from reno's cabelas yesterday..paid $250 Will use the action for my build..
[ December 24, 2014, 03:33 PM: Message edited by: Fur_n_Dirt ]
Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on December 24, 2014, 08:16 PM:
Mine is 22" and I get 3800 fps with a 55 gr bullet, 3100 with a 75. I don't think the extra velocity is worth the extra barrel.
Posted by Dave Allen (Member # 3102) on December 25, 2014, 12:05 PM:
Is the can really worth all the fuss ? I honestly have no idea ?
Posted by Fur_n_Dirt (Member # 4467) on December 25, 2014, 02:42 PM:
Tom ; thx for the numbers.. I ended up ordering a 21".
Dave ; It's much easier on the ears in a hunting situation and it's worth the extra pennies for me .. Also, I have a suspicion that I'll have a much better chance to kill multiples due the sound signature..
Maybe I'll start a build thread? Seems most of you guys like the 700 platform (which is fabulous) , but with a savage you can build a compete rifle without depending on a gunsmith.
Here's an awesome gun Dad built in 2007 in 6BR from a Stevens action..
[ December 25, 2014, 02:54 PM: Message edited by: Fur_n_Dirt ]
Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on December 25, 2014, 03:56 PM:
I think Kelly has been playing with those Salvage rifles.
I had one in 222 when I was about 16, my first "fur" gun but I got smartened up real quick. ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
Posted by Dave Allen (Member # 3102) on December 25, 2014, 05:27 PM:
You can build a complete rifle, without a gunsmith, ya say ?
In the hollow spaces of my brain, & there's plenty trust me. It does seem that Kelly or somebody, was screwing on barrels to Salvage actions or something like that ?
Yeah, might be worth another thread ? I'll listen.
Posted by Fur_n_Dirt (Member # 4467) on December 25, 2014, 08:03 PM:
Tom,
Are u suggesting a REM action has a longer dick than a savage? :-)
Folks build customs off savage actions all the time.. The magic is that little barrel nut ...
Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on December 26, 2014, 03:23 AM:
Yes.
Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on December 26, 2014, 08:19 AM:
My second .22BR and my first .20BR were just barrels I put on Savage actions. I think the .22BR was going on 15 years ago now? Time flies...
They are dead simple easy to rebarrel, that is for sure. And good accuracy as a general rule. Ugly as a mud fence and smooth as a cobblestone road, but easy and accurate.
- DAA
Posted by Fur_n_Dirt (Member # 4467) on December 26, 2014, 11:11 AM:
Not much more to say after DAA's statement ; except for , "does size really matter?" Lol
Posted by Dave Allen (Member # 3102) on December 26, 2014, 11:29 AM:
I don't know how this works ? so I'm curious. Do you take the barrel nut off and just screw on a new barrel ?
I guess a guy would need a set of go & no-go headspace gauges ? I'm also guessing there are sources for good barrels ?
Thanks.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 26, 2014, 11:49 AM:
Total mystery to me. I have a barrel vice and an action wrench, that's all I know?
By the way, that pic above resembles my 243Ackley. It's a Tooley benchrest stock, and same Kydex cheekrest. But the scope I have on it is a US Optics 5X25.
Good hunting. El Bee
edit: by the way, a 21" barrel will change several things, even deciding on the correct powder. You will need to find a propellant that will burn completely in that length and still give decent velocity. I did something like that once, didn't notice until shooting at night; it was a total flamethrower!
[ December 26, 2014, 11:55 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on December 26, 2014, 12:32 PM:
Dave, yeah, it's about that easy. Barrel vise and a barrel nut wrench - which can both be had pretty cheap, will get it done.
I've never bothered with gages, prefer to headspace off my brass and dies. Use tape on the bolt nose to check that clearance. Easy.
- DAA
Posted by Fur_n_Dirt (Member # 4467) on December 26, 2014, 03:54 PM:
How to rebarrel a savage barrel
Posted by Dave Allen (Member # 3102) on December 26, 2014, 05:30 PM:
Thanks for the link, pretty interesting.
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