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Author
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Topic: Meanwhile in Nevada...
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jimanaz
2nd Place RICHARD FARNSWORTH LOOK-A-LIKE CONTEST
Member # 3689
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posted April 17, 2014 05:41 PM
Like Koko insinuated, I will promise there is BLM land along the southern border that is being subjected to more abuse on a daily basis and all they do is put up "keep out" signs. What Bundy owes is a pimple on the butt of time. He's no schoolboy, he's working the system too. The Fed tested the water. I'm glad they got the response they did. There's gonna be more.
We had a "wild fire" started in a canyon near Sierra Vista last week. It's been contained, but, gee, I wonder how it got started. Bundy's bill MIGHT have covered the cost.
Posts: 940 | From: AZ | Registered: Oct 2010
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DiYi
Wears wife's pink panties under his camo for good luck. (yeah, right!)
Member # 3785
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posted April 18, 2014 03:08 AM
If they'll pipe bomb,they'll start fires,no doubt.
True american heros.
I'm curious what you guys that think ol Clive is right want the gov to do?
Give him the land?
Forgive his debt?
Both?
Back down to everyone that disobeys court orders? Just white guys that wear a cowboy hat or everyone?
Give all our land away?
Give it to M Bloomberg?
Give it back to Native Americans?(I'd sure prefer that to ol Clive myself)
Honest,I'd like to hear what you want the Gov to do?
Also please tell me what principle is involved here that ol Clive is defending?
Oh,and by the way,who do you think is locking the gates on your land?
[ April 18, 2014, 03:14 AM: Message edited by: DiYi ]
Posts: 623 | From: SoDak | Registered: Feb 2011
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TRnCO
FUTURE HALL OF FAMER
Member # 690
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posted April 18, 2014 05:37 AM
From what I gather, 'ol Clive is in the wrong, at least, legally. But what chaps me the most is that the current admin. seems to pick and choose which laws and which people they want to enforce the laws upon. In this case though, it seems the gov. has run into some resistance. BUT, why show up with the cavalry and why go so far as to point weapons at legal U.S. civilians and why does Reid call these U.S. civilians "terrorists"? Really going over the line. But why?
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Is it hunting season yet? I hate summer!
Posts: 996 | From: Elizabeth, CO | Registered: Aug 2005
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CrossJ
SECOND PLACE: PAUL RYAN Look-a-like contest
Member # 884
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posted April 18, 2014 05:39 AM
quote:
I'm curious what you guys that think ol Clive is right want the gov to do?
Ya know, I kinda stepped back from this discussion because it seemed all points had been made, and the only thing left was for people to 'loose their vowels'. But here goes...As to your question I quoted, who said he was right???
I never said he was right, who said he was right??? I think most everyones point was that the BLM was wrong in the way it handled the matter, I know that was mine! I personally can think of a lot of other ways they could have handled this that would have been ALOT less antagonistic and ALOT more cost effective. I have a hard enough time having these .gov organizations enforce regulations(not laws)by imposing punitive fines. So, you can guess my feelings on having an all out tactical assault team enforcing these regs.
Lets just take the 'round up' for example....Why the hell use choppers and mounted gunsels during calving season??? The water is controlled in these areas. You control the water, you control the cattle! Its not as dramatic, its not as invasive, and it sure as hell doesn't strike fear in the minions, but it would work a lot more efficiently in both function and cost.
I never felt this issue was cut and dry, black or white. Honestly, I see the points of the 'anti Bundy' side. Inversely, We have a .gov agency with a track record of inefficiency, incompetence and corruption now going 'FULL Tactical'.
As for the rest of your questions, I am assuming they are just rhetorical in nature, so I won't offer an answer(plus I have to go to work), except for this one....
quote:
Oh,and by the way,who do you think is locking the gates on your land?
If you read my first post on this matter, you will see I made reference to this very thing.
Maintain
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A friend will help you move. A good friend will help you move a body.
Posts: 1025 | From: on a water tower | Registered: Jul 2006
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CrossJ
SECOND PLACE: PAUL RYAN Look-a-like contest
Member # 884
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posted April 18, 2014 05:41 AM
TR, we were posting around the same time, but you are right, 'WHY' is the biggest question.
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A friend will help you move. A good friend will help you move a body.
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Paul Melching
Radical Operator Forum "You won't get past the front gate"
Member # 885
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posted April 18, 2014 06:30 AM
Seems to me its a civil matter and should have been handled that way. Why go all out tactical?
He may be a dirt bag rancher but was this handled properly? I don't know enough about the lease he had to know whether or not his in violation of anything. The i.r.s. came after me once talk about feeling powerless.
I think the Govt. over-reach is the real issue here.
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Those who value security over liberty soon will have neither !
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DiYi
Wears wife's pink panties under his camo for good luck. (yeah, right!)
Member # 3785
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posted April 18, 2014 06:44 AM
Paul, Cross and others I understand that point but they negotiated years with this guy, YEARs, spent millions on other methods, court many times, they have been subjected to violence many times themselves so I don't know what we can expect.keep in mind the environmental threats and lawsuits from the other side demanding they do something.
Fuck ing tough deal and no way I'll take a deadbeats side.
Posts: 623 | From: SoDak | Registered: Feb 2011
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Paul Melching
Radical Operator Forum "You won't get past the front gate"
Member # 885
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posted April 18, 2014 07:08 AM
How much of this whole mess can be laid at the feet of Harry Reid and his dealings with Enn the Chinese solar outfit?
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Those who value security over liberty soon will have neither !
Posts: 4188 | From: The forest ! north of the dez. | Registered: Jul 2006
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DiYi
Wears wife's pink panties under his camo for good luck. (yeah, right!)
Member # 3785
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posted April 18, 2014 08:09 AM
Paul,
No clue except that particular chinese deal fell through long ago.
I sure hope Reid get's blamed for this-and gets his ass kicked instead of the foot soldiers carrying out Court orders.Doubt it though,Nevadans keep electing the SOB.
Fact of the matter is,talk and mouthed solutions and afterthoughts are cheap and of no help to the guys who have to actually deal with this.
Posts: 623 | From: SoDak | Registered: Feb 2011
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted April 18, 2014 08:48 AM
Well, by Golly, I don't care if this guy is a deadbeat, but that part doesn't even square? He's Mormon goes back to 1870 and I assume he has a beef. Say what you will about Mormons but they strike me as straight lace law abiding people and if he wasn't, the whole church would be crashing down on his ass. That's how they roll.
Now about the govmint. My girlfriend recently applied for CA plates and driver's license. Talk about a hassle! Seems her Texas License isn't good enough which has her married name, although 9 years a widow. They won't issue a driver's license until she can produce a marriage license from over 30 years ago proving she changed her name from the maiden to her married name.
In the meantime, while she tears into all her documents in garage from moving, they gave her a manual for studying so she could take the driving test. In it she came across a paragraph that said words to the effect that if an applicant was an undocumented alien they would issue a driver's license without any documentation. That is something that is pissing her off, right now while she searches boxes......
And, that's where I am at. This Bundy might be a total jerk, but he is sure as hell an American citizen and they don't need to shoot his bulls and call out an entire Company (200 men) of (armed to the teeth) SWAT teams. As far as I am concerned, they should be handing the case to the GLACIAL JUSTICE DEPARTMENT under Eric Holder and let him get to the bottom of it. Then, of course, he can't comment on an ongoing investigation, etc BS. But, none of his investigations have amounted to much, Fast and Furious? What's that? I believe Jay Carney called that ancient history, ho hum, next question?
When Obama and Kerry dangle a convicted spy, (Pollard) in front of the Palestinians and Israeli's, I guess breaking the law is always a matter of degree, like how many million new Democrat voters have crossed the border illegally? And, Jeb Bush, (of all people) says; "It's a matter of love." But I digress, again.
Good hunting. El Bee
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31450 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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CrossJ
SECOND PLACE: PAUL RYAN Look-a-like contest
Member # 884
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posted April 18, 2014 08:50 AM
I will wager when all is said and done, the ranchers/land users and the environmentalists will both feel they got screwed.....ironic!
Maintain
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A friend will help you move. A good friend will help you move a body.
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted April 18, 2014 09:01 AM
quote:
Doubt it though,Nevadans keep electing the SOB.
Nevada has the same problem as Colorado. Large population in one city, consisting of liberal assholes and they control everything in a state that is by and large, RURAL. Denver rules, Las Vegas rules and they elect Liberal assholes that want gun control and other progressive causes. You want to get something done, send in the SWAT and disperse the Liberals from the cities and give back control to the country people. White people not on food stamps.
This country is going to the dogs. Proof: they elect a weasel like Harry Reid in Nevada!
Good hunting. El Bee
edit: NOTE: Pursuant to AB 60 (ch 524, Stats 2013) DMV will begin issuing driver licenses to applicants who are unable to provide evidence of their status in the U.S. As such, requirements for driver licensing will be modified in accordance with the effective date of January 1, 2015.
[ April 18, 2014, 09:16 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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UTcaller
NEVADA NIGHT FIGHTER
Member # 8
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posted April 18, 2014 11:03 AM
Bundy is no more of a crook than the federal government(BLM)They seem to be able to do anything they want with the land regardless of how "we the people " feel about. That son of a bitch Harry Reid is more of a crook than Bundy ever thought of being. Sure Bundy is in the wrong for not paying. But the thought that its not HIS land, is not totally true. "We" tax payers own that public land So Bundy is just as much a land owner of public land than as good ol Harry Reid and the BLM boys. But the government always knows what's best for us.
Good Hunting Chad
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Prune Picker
AR Forum Assistant Moderator-handgun GURU and dispenser of sage advice
Member # 4107
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posted April 18, 2014 11:24 AM
Does anyone remember the articles in Outdoor Life, Field & Stream, Sports Afield, etc magazines addressing the Locked Gates and Pay To Pass on roads entering into the BLM land in Colorado during Elk & Deer seasons?
Is the Bundy vs BLM fiasco in any way similar?
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mike
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Bryan J
Cap and Trade Weenie
Member # 106
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posted April 18, 2014 03:43 PM
It was the damned tortoise that ignited this shit storm. The BLM "got fired" around the same time the BLM at the direction of Fish and Wildlife Service renegotiated the grazing contract. (I wonder how that works when the rancher wants to renegotiate in the case of wolves?} You know the adage about fighting for so long you forgot what started it. I think it applies in this case.
I'm not just pissed off about the heavy handed methods of the BLM, I'm pissed that the US Fish and Wildlife Service didn't even seem to be involved. Then Lance left them off of his list to top things off.
What I think should happen. Let Bundy pay his back grazing fees with some interest tacked on at the rate prior to listing of the tortoise. Let him continue to graze the land at rates as if it were not deemed critical habitat.
Much like the wolf the tortoise is nothing but a tool used to get livestock off of our public lands. If we let the government take it back as planned it will just be locked up with limited access.
At least that is the way I see it.
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UTcaller
NEVADA NIGHT FIGHTER
Member # 8
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posted April 18, 2014 03:58 PM
Yeah that's my point what gives the government the right to lock up "OUR" land with limited access. And we're supposed to just bend over and take it. The Federal government is the one with no regard to laws. If they don't like an out come they just change the rules. Its bull shit. I really don't think this shit storm has anything to do with Bundy and his grazing fees, people are just getting sick and damned tired of the strong arm of big government. Plain and simple.
Good Hunting Chad
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted April 18, 2014 05:07 PM
Fish and Wildlife, BLM all of them, the ultimate goal is to keep us OUT. Whoever is directing policy, they are anti citizen, and especially anti-sportsman. I have been saying this for a long time; bunny huggers have taken control of most agencies that affect public access. On the flimsiest of reasons, they arbitrarily close off huge areas.
The recent crap over the Sacramento Smelt, supposedly "endangered" says some activist biologist. So, the whole Central Valley has it's water cut off! I have seen it with my own eyes. Mature orchards, almonds, oranges, pistachios and major row crops are dying due to lack of water. Water that is being diverted out to sea via San Francisco bay. And, these Government agencies claim it's necessary to "SAVE" the Delta Smelt.
I'm telling you, it's just like the settled science of GLOBAL WARMING/CLIMATE CHANGE. It's ludicrous! They can't prove it and even if they could, so what? they just can't get priorities straight....and that's the whole problem with the way the Endangered Species Act is being implemented. It's a bad law, just as bad as Obama Care. It needs major modifications in order to be taken seriously.
We cannot be jerked around like the TVA with the infamous "SNAIL DARTER" that, oh wait, I guess we suddenly found lots of snail darters that these "scientists" told bald faced lies about! Shut down billion dollar projects because some politically motivated government employee told Congress how critical and important this policy would be to the entire Nation, if not the World and the solar system.
It's no question we are being jerked around by "science" whether it's Keystone Pipeline, or drilling on the north slope. Obama has halted offshore drilling and choked off coal fired power plants.
It's about time the government stopped listening to these Cassandra's. We need to look very hard at "scientists" that forecast doom unless we tax carbon emissions, and lot's of stuff I can't think of right now, I'm so pissed off at human stupidity!
End of Friday rant
Good hunting. El Bee
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted April 18, 2014 05:43 PM
A short read...
"
Obama has created his own private army and hidden his 'soldiers' in dozens of federal agencies in the form Special Weapons and Tactics (SWAT) teams.
Why would departments such as these need their own SWAT: The Department of Agriculture, the Railroad Retirement Board, the Tennessee Valley Authority, the Office of Personnel Management, the Consumer Product Safety Commission, and the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service?
“Law-enforcement agencies across the U.S., at every level of government, have been blurring the line between police officer and soldier,” writes Radley Balko in his 2013 book Rise of the Warrior Cop. “The war on drugs and, more recently, post-9/11 antiterrorism efforts have created a new figure on the U.S. scene: the warrior cop — armed to the teeth, ready to deal harshly with targeted wrongdoers, and a growing threat to familiar American liberties.”
We are witnessing the militarization of federal agencies — not to mention local police forces - on a grand scale. With great force they raid homes and businesses of non-violent citizens, as we just witnessed with the Cliven Bundy atrocity.
With dozens of SWAT teams now at his hand, Obama has followed in the footsteps of other Marxist tyrants.
http://www.truthandaction.org/obama-private-army-dozens-of-paramilitary-federal-swat-teams-formed/"
Just a little sumpin-sumpin to stir the turds more.
Now, Bryan, USFWS is listed, under Fish and Wildlife Service.
As for his using the land, as an American citizen I suppose I own part of that place. I sure don't know where my little piece of heaven is, but for the sake of this debate, I want to go on record saying that I am perfectly fine with Mr. Bundy grazing the grass on my dirt as long as he wants and I'll give him that deal for free. I suppose there are a lot of other Americans that would do the same, so you put all our pieces together and consider it all good.
There is certainly some disagreement on this matter. That's for sure. But, if we didn't agree, and sometimes loudly, we wouldn't be Americans. After all, it was a man's willingness to cry "Bullshit!" that started the process of making a new country - THIS country.
And, while we're on that subject, it should be noted that there was a LOT of disagreement amongst the colonists as to just what, if any, sort of a country we were going to make. As I understand it, the ratification of our own Constitution was a big "?" at the time due to the people, and the states, who were "unknowns" as far as their support.
Likewise, lest we forget, those of our ancestors who chose to stand in (armed) disagreement with the Crown were, by definition, INSURGENTS, and the American Revolution was an INSURGENCY, albeit a damned successful one. If Harry "Old Balls" Reid wants to say that I'm a terrorist, then by GAWD, I'll take that as a badge of honor in this instance. There isn't a damned thing in this life which is absolute or cut and dried. People in power lie and the truth is a moving target. You look at what you see, compare it with what you know to be true and decide which side of the fence you're gonna fall. Given everything we know about the Obama Administration today, it seems to me that Bush 43 was right, "If you aren't part of the solution, you're part of the problem."
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted April 18, 2014 05:44 PM
Just read my last post and was amused at how pertinent and prophetic my sig line has become.
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
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Duckdog
Knows what it's all about
Member # 3842
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posted April 18, 2014 06:10 PM
Good post Lance
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Bryan J
Cap and Trade Weenie
Member # 106
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posted April 18, 2014 06:33 PM
My apologies Lance, mostly ribbing you anyway. It is right where you said it was. Busted, I didn't read the whole list.
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Frank
CAN START A FIRE WITH A BUCK KNIFE AND A ROCK
Member # 6
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posted April 22, 2014 10:21 PM
Cdog911 is exactly right in everyone of his posts. Giving law making power to "subordinate" government agencies is the road to tyranny. If we, as Americans, can't control the laws by voting then what do we have? Allowing alphabet agencies to create any law they see fit is gonna lead to bad things. Killin' probly.
All good intentions lead to a set of laws that end up tyrannical.....the shear weight of which will lead to rebellion by Americans.
It's no surprise the attitude of the ranchers to the BLM. And you got to remember that almost every other rancher in the Cliven Bundy area has already been forced off his lands by the BLM created laws. There are many other ranchers who have lost everything without compensation by the BLM created crap ass laws. Cliven Bundy is the last holdout to the taking of lands by the BLM. He is indeed a true American Patriot!
You got to realize the BLM comes on the scene with new rules and regulations that weren't voted on by our lawmakers but put in place by bureaucrats with an agenda. This is the same modus operandi of the former Soviet Union.
It's like obamacare. You either do what we say and buy health insurance from private companies at unaffordable rates or you will find a gun to your head!
The Cliven Bundy family has been ranching these lands since 1870. He was directed to remove his cattle from major portions of the land he, and his family, have been allowed to graze for more than a century. Now, because of the Desert Tortoise, he has to remove his cattle from lands his family has managed for more than a century. That's when he stopped paying the BLM fees.
How would you like it if the feds came to your door and said "Mr Patriot, you no longer have rights to this land and we (the BLM) have decided to disallow you from developing your land or using it in any other way". "You cannot allow any development because there are ponds on your property which are used as flyways by migrating fowl". How would you like it if the BLM came to your door and said, "Mr Patriot, we are taking your lands without compensation because we want to protect the kangaroo rat, the desert Tortoise, migrating water fowl, the snail darter, the matriculated butterfly, and the creosote bush"?
What would you do if you found your family thrown off your lands without compensation as called out for in the constitution? What most people don't know is the feds do not have to compensate you for your losses if the taking of land is for environmental reasons. This was part of a supreme court decision. To me, that is enough to justify killin'.
The problem is these kind of actions by the feds are increasing and becoming more common. This creates an atmosphere of resentment for government that promises to escalate into a shooting confrontation.
I'm on the side of Americans, not the feds and their bullshit laws taking property from Americans without compensation.
I see a major battle brewing, and I hope it happens! It's time for the feds to respect the constitution that created this country. If they don't there's gonna be some killin' going on before too long!
[ April 22, 2014, 11:12 PM: Message edited by: Frank ]
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"Truth is no prostitute, that throws herself away upon those who do not desire her; she is rather so coy a beauty that he who sacrifices everything to her cannot even then be sure of her favor".
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Kokopelli
SENIOR DISCOUNT & Dispenser of Sage Advice
Member # 633
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posted April 23, 2014 08:38 AM
That would all be great, except...........IT'S NOT HIS LAND !!!
How about someone comes up with some bullshit justification to graze cattle on YOUR land without permission or payment ???
No, I didn't think that would work.
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And lo, the Light of the Trump shown upon the Darkness and the Darkness could not comprehend it.
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted April 23, 2014 09:05 AM
No, it isn't HIS land, but it is federal land that belongs to the federal government. And seeings how the federal government is you, me, your neighbor, the guy down the road, it stands to reason that the ground he's grazing is part his, and part the rest of us, as well. He and his family have been grazing that ground for over 100 years. Their business model was built on the existence of access to that federal ground. Bundy managed the ground as well or better than BLM did. When they ceased repairing fences and borders around water tanks to manage overgrazing, Bundy took the responsibility upon himself knowing that it had to be done to protect and preserve the long-term viability of his grazing acres. Without that access, Bundy's livelihood is gone, as is 100+ years of family roots on that spot in Nevada.
To me, this issue is (minorly) stop moving the goal lines by changing rules so people cannot expect to know what the current law is on property owned by "We, the People", and (majorly) the use of excessive force on American citizens by agencies of the federal government who do not, under the law, have police powers and arrest power, let along authorization to act as a paramilitary arm of the same federal government.
No, that rangeland is NOT HIS property, but taking away his grazing rights for the reasons they have given is just the same as taking away his land in the long run. There's no difference in the outcomes if you're Cliven Bundy.
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted April 23, 2014 10:19 AM
Okay, look. It seems to me that we are getting a little too myopic regarding who owns the land. One of our western National Forests has a motto on the welcome signs: "LAND OF MANY USES".
I think it is understood that within the borders of Federal Land, there is mining operations, timber harvesting and yes, cattle grazing. And, yeah, It ain't THEIR LAND but they have every legal right to be there and to use these lands of many uses.
Good hunting. El Bee
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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