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Author
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Topic: COULD IT HAPPEN HERE?
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4949shooter
SECOND PLACE HIGGINS (MAGNUM P.I.) LOOK A LIKE CONTEST
Member # 3530
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posted March 26, 2011 09:45 PM
Lance pretty much hit the nail on the head. Everything he said in his post is accurate, and since he said it all I won't say any more.
Leonard, that is a lousy situation you describe. From what I understand, Game Wardens have the right to make Fish and Game type "checks" due to the nature of their job. A standard law enforcement officer would need probable cause or at least reasonable suspicion to stop you and request your driver's license, etc. I remember when I was a teenager, my father, his friend, and myself got stopped by a Game Warden because he saw the feet of the three deer we had killed sticking out of the back of the truck. All the deer were tagged and everything was good. But a standard LEO couldn't have stopped us for that. Game Wardens play by different rules. It sounds like he was busting you though.
Tom, aside from us being on opposite sides of some imaginary fence, sometimes I believe you and I think alike, sense of humor and all.
[ March 26, 2011, 09:51 PM: Message edited by: 4949shooter ]
Posts: 2274 | From: New Jersey | Registered: Dec 2009
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jimanaz
2nd Place RICHARD FARNSWORTH LOOK-A-LIKE CONTEST
Member # 3689
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posted March 26, 2011 10:39 PM
That's interesting, Leonard. I know very few close acquaintances who haven't had an unpleasant experience with an AZGFD warden, except me. Some of them for the very reason you cite. Although I think you were well within your right not to offer your license if you had not been hunting, really, what's the point? You had intentions of hunting, that's why you were there, and it's pretty easy to spot that stuff. Probably wearing camo too, right? You had a license and weren't doing anything wrong. Why not just show it to the guy when he asked the first time. The event would have probably ended on a much happier note.
I'm not defending the guy for his reactions, that would have pissed me off too. He probably could have been a little more creative than lying to you about why he asked in the first place. I dunno about CA fish cops, but the ones here are the most empowered LEO in AZ. They can cite and detain you anywhere, for anything. They have to be kinda edgy at the fact that pretty much everyone they contact is armed, and there are some real pieces of shit out there doing whatever it is that they do in the outdoors. They might refer to it as hunting but I doubt many of this group would think so. I'm happy to see a warden in the field, wish there was more of them. If there was, there'd probably be less locked gates and ranchers who wouldn't spit on a hunter they don't know if he was on fire. I guess maybe they can tell I have that attitude and that's why I don't have any horror stories to tell.
I was along the side of a paved forrest service road a few weeks ago right at dark, and had just finished stowing my gear and snapping a couple pictures when a warden stopped on the road and asked if I had done any good. It was the last day of rifle javelina season and I'm sure he thought that's why I was there. I gave him a brief recap of my day and he told me about a big bobcat he had seen, and where. He was still sitting in the middle of the road and I asked him if he wanted to see my bona fides since we were both there. He said he probably should and pulled off behind my truck. I showed him my license, we made a little more small talk and went our seperate ways. He never had to get out of his truck or do a weapons check on me, and I never burdened him with making any assessment of the situation. He didn't drive away asking himself "Why didn't he just show me his damn license when I asked him to?" either.
Posts: 940 | From: AZ | Registered: Oct 2010
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted March 26, 2011 10:51 PM
I concede all that, 49. But, ordering me to turn off my engine and get out of the vehicle and he holds my hands behind my back while he frisks me....I believe that is uncalled for. He even folded my side mirror out of the way, like he was afraid I was going to make a run for it.
I should have just sat there and told him to get fucked and see if he pulled a gun on me. That's about his only option since I'm sure he wouldn't have crossed in front of the vehicle. The initial conversation was through my passenger window.
I mean, at what point is a peace officer allowed to pull a gun on somebody when asking for I.D. and at least 30 miles from any town? I don't know, but I think all California Game Wardens became sworn peace officers (oh) maybe 15 years ago? I don't know if that means they can write citations for violations of the penal code as well as the game and fish, which are totally separate and just as thick.
I have the guy's card. I have often thought about calling and discussing the incident, at length. Okay, I'm an attitude case, which ain't against the law, yet.
GH/LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31471 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted March 26, 2011 10:58 PM
I apologize, Jimanez. I thought you would for sure have the same kiss my ass attitude. I've misjudged you. But, you were the one that said we were too much alike!
GH/LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31471 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Field Marshall, Southern Minneesota Sector
Member # 794
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posted March 26, 2011 11:03 PM
quote:
Me being me, I fought the ticket, went all the way to the Chief Warden and he said it was for our safety. I said if it was for our safety, why didn't he write us tickets when he waved at us while walking into the woods with bows in hand. He said we weren't hunting then and the officer had no obligation to warn us and couldn't ticket us then. I of course then asked, what was the difference when we were walking out?
Tom, The warden probaly figured since you did'nt have safety orange on you would most likely break another law. So they just drive on and then circle back and catch you when youre done hunting and take care of any other issues that pop up as well..
They operate like that most of the time here, rather than just ticket you for a minor offense they just sit it out waiting to see if it gets any worse as far as breaking the laws...
Leonard; Not takeing sides but you were out on that dirt road with the intension of hunting but youre plans were changed due to equipement failure.. You said you had guns in the truck and also a caller.. So I would say you were hunting..
You said you had a Lic. and the warden asked for it so you should of shown it rather than being hostile and refuseing.. The wardens have a whole set of different rules they play by and thats the last guy I would want to piss off...
I run into a warden atleast 2-3 times a year and if you stay on the up and up they won't mess with you and at times can give out some helpfull info....
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What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
Posts: 5075 | From: S.D. | Registered: Jan 2006
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jimanaz
2nd Place RICHARD FARNSWORTH LOOK-A-LIKE CONTEST
Member # 3689
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posted March 26, 2011 11:07 PM
LOL!! Yeah, with just about any and everybody EXCEPT cops. I learned a long time ago that whether you're right or wrong, if you get a cop's hair up, they can make your day miserable. I guess it's just not worth the aggravation anymore.
Posts: 940 | From: AZ | Registered: Oct 2010
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JD
HONORARY OKIE .... and Tim's at fault!
Member # 768
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posted March 26, 2011 11:51 PM
I'm OK with the local boys but those federal boys are straight up assholes, early teal season last fall myself and 2 other guys went out and shot our limit right away, 12 birds, we could only find 10, on the walk through the reeds back to the truck here comes someone wearing those huge block letters FEDERAL OFFICER. No big deal we had put in more than a reasonable effort to find those birds so we weren't worried.
That turned out to be the least of our worries, this guy was our best friend, asking all sorts of personal questions and then a few minutes later ask again in a different way, no big deal cause we got nothing to hide. He would ask things like where you from originally before you moved here? How long have you guys known each other? and on and on it went and he would ask one of us a question then turn and ask a similar question to someone else as if he didn't understand the answer that was just given him. Which birds are yours? Who shot the first bird? whose birds are left out in the swamp? blah blah blah
This went on for 15 solid minutes until he asked for our licenses, I had all my papers in order but these 2 guys had forgot to get a FEDERAL duck stamp, they had a waterfowl stamp just not the FEDERAL one, this is THE most common offense because you can't buy one online, you have to physically go pick one up and stick it to your papers, very very common mistake, nonetheless it was a mistake that justifies a ticket, as minor as it is.
But that's where Dr Jeckyl started to morph into something a lot less pleasant, now he went back and started asking these questions again and when we gave the same answers as before he would go off on us and say that we had told him something different earlier which was total BS, we had nothing to hide then and we still didn't after he discovered the violation.
For the next 45 minutes this fucktard grilled us on everything from the friends we grew up with to the number of children we had, profession, how long we've been hunting, at one point he accused me of being a paid guide for the other 2 guys because that was the first time we had hunted DUCKS together and they we're brothers who had recently moved to the area, he told me that once he figured out how much they had payed me that I would be given a hefty fine for guiding on federal land.
He would get absolutely pissed off at us for lying to him and inform us that we didn't have to say anything but since we had been lying to a federal officer we were now FELONS and could be cuffed and hauled before a federal judge. About this time one of the guys stopped him mid sentence and said.... " I have a friend who is a fed and I fully understand that you guys are trained to double talk and say things that aren't true to try and get someone confused if they are lying to you so they will eventually show themselves, but enough is enough, none of us have ever had a violation, you have grilled us and we have told the same answers since you showed up, so write the tickets and we'll be on our way"
I thought this guys head was gonna explode, I had visions of being pistol whipped and cuffed right there, instead he was very rude and blunt after that, took pictures of their guns and birds, wrote the tickets and assured them that he was the nicest game warden they would ever meet cause he could"ve taken the guns and the birds and fined them for each bird and if he wasn't such a good christian man this ordeal could.ve cost them 1200 bucks at least plus the guns, he then told them that if they didn't pay the 150 dollar fine in the next 30 days that it would be like every movie you've seen about the feds, where a black van would pull up in front of your place of employment and guys in dark suits will handcuff you and haul you before a federal judge and federal judges don't like to be bothered with this sort of thing so it would probably be a bad deal so just get it taken care of! Then before this fruitcake left he invited us to come hunt at some freakin refuge hunt that was coming up in KS.
WTF? Really?
As he drove off I waved at him and said "fuck you very much"
My point is......for a minor violation I don't have to be subjected to 45 minutes of bullshit questions and be accused of being a felon and a liar, threatened to be cuffed and hauled before a federal judge. I think he was pissed that he couldn't write me a ticket. He wont always be a federal officer but he WILL always be an asshole!
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Jason
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What do Obama & TA17Rem have in common........both are clueless asshats!!!
Posts: 1456 | From: NE. | Registered: Dec 2005
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4949shooter
SECOND PLACE HIGGINS (MAGNUM P.I.) LOOK A LIKE CONTEST
Member # 3530
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posted March 27, 2011 03:46 AM
Wow JD that sounds like the stop from Hell. What is the name of that cooking show, Hell's Kitchen? He sounded like that guy.
Leonard I guess what I am trying to say is that the Game officer most likely had a legal right to ask for your license. Though I think he could simply have explained to you the reasons why you may have been legally obligated to show him your license, and what the ramifications would have been if you refused. I guess he felt you challenged his authority and so he did what he did. Though it has been my experience that most people you can just talk into compliance. Perhaps it is different for game wardens, because they may get less "respect" from people that other LE branches do?
Posts: 2274 | From: New Jersey | Registered: Dec 2009
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Paul Melching
Radical Operator Forum "You won't get past the front gate"
Member # 885
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posted March 27, 2011 06:12 AM
Im surprised to hear that Leonard, unlike Calif. most of my experiences in Az. have been positive
Most all the critter cops I have had contact with have been regular guys and even helpful. I have even been stopped after fishing on the Salt river without my lic. in posseion and the officer called in my name to verify my # and let me walk. I was clearly in violation ,though not intentionally and could have been cited.I have run nito them numerous times with not so much as a hunting lic. check. most times in the woods as I see them very rarley in the dez.
In Calif. Many years ago I had been on a reomote stream in the eastern sierra fishing with my boys and wacthed the fish cop veiwing us from afar and try to work his way quietly to our location dont know how the element of surpise was goin to help him but he came in behind us I guess so we couldnt flee the scene. He sure saved the public that day I had my lic and my boys were under age to require one. I guess its all a matter of which one you draw that day.
Now in calif. most I have had contact with have had an attitude , maybe they have more a-holes to contend with but we have our share of slob hunters and just plain stupid people.Not to mention drug runners and two legged coyotes.
I think that he could have handled your situation a lot differently and not escallated the tensions.
[ March 27, 2011, 06:13 AM: Message edited by: Paul Melching ]
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Those who value security over liberty soon will have neither !
Posts: 4188 | From: The forest ! north of the dez. | Registered: Jul 2006
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TOM64
Knows what it's all about
Member # 561
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posted March 27, 2011 06:25 AM
Since we're on a roll...
Contrary to popular opinion, I'm very respectful when stopped by LE until it's time to not be respectful. Otherwords, be nice to me and I'll be nice to you.
One day I asked my dad to go dove hunting with me, he doesn't hunt much but has a lifetime hunting license cause he thought it was a good thing. Anyway long story short, his gun wasn't plugged but we didn't think about it. We walked across the road from his house into the peanut field and boom a warden showed up. Dad had 3 shells in his gun and 2 in his back pocket but he was in the wrong and would accept the ticket cause we forgot. Then he starts doing like JD said, asking us how many birds we killed that morning and all kinds of crap, we didn't hunt that morning but he would have none of that and stopped short of calling us liars. I had enough and called him everything but a white man, trying to pick a fight. Finally dad told him to write the ticket and be done with it. I told him to walk down to the gate when he left cause I didn't like him mashing down the fence to step over it, he did. Dad went to the DA the next day and got it throwed out just because.
Being respectful goes a long way on both sides of the fence. I don't think most of us are trying to break the law but sometmes we get distracted and I'll fess up and take my punishment but don't treat me like I just robbed a bank.
Posts: 2283 | From: okieland | Registered: Feb 2005
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R.Shaw
Peanut Butter Man, da da da da DAH!
Member # 73
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posted March 27, 2011 07:32 AM
Sometimes it doesn't work-out.
Years ago the local warden and one from the neighboring county were patroling the roads during deer season.I think they called it saturation.Anyways, both were dressed in regular hunting clothes..no uniform, no badges, no nothing and driving an unmarked car. Undercover so-to-speak.
They were driving in a rough and outlawish part of the county when they spot a man dragging a doe towards the road during a bucks only season. They stop the car and approach the man, but before they can utter a word the man asks for help getting the deer through the fence. They oblige. The man thanks them and says he has another deer just like this one down over the hill. Would they wait here and help with it too? Ding,ding,ding...of course they agree. The man walks down over the hill and into the brush never to return.
Another warden here had the smart-ass attitude that nobody liked. He jogged to stay in shape wearing a WW2 army helmet....don't ask me. Anyways,during deer season, he spots a couple boys off the road, standing around their pick-up.Ding,ding,ding...gotta be law-breakers. He pulls through the gate and heads their way. Turns-out they were just choring so he returns to the road.
The boys dad had seen the warden pull-through the gate. Pissed-off, he had locked the gate and was standing there when the warden returned. Warden says let me out and the dad replied it would cost 100 dollars. An arguement ensused. Finally the warden radioed headquarters in Jeff City asking for assistance. Their advice...pay the man.
Posts: 545 | From: Nebraska | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted March 27, 2011 10:32 AM
I don't really know? If you are driving off road, you could be a gold prospector, looking for arrowheads, bird watcher and all kinds of things. And, some of them are going to be wearing camo because it's considered "stylish" in some parts of town.
Does this guy approach everybody standing next to their vehicle and ask for a hunting license?
I think some would reply: we are bird watchers, not hunting. And, they don't have a hunting license.
I do not accept that driving a road and walking to the back of your truck constitutes "hunting" in anybody's mind.
Furthermore, I still think I was within my rights to dispute his version of reality by simply replying that I wasn't hunting. I think the dink was out of line, probably because I intended to drive right by him, in the first place, which caught him off guard, so he was frantically waving me to stop. This could also be an indication of guilt, for some dickheads, but as far as I was concerned, I'm just driving a dirt road, minding my own business. I stopped without him resorting to his concealed red light, so I fail to see a violation of anything and I still can't see where he has the authority to demand to see a license, if I wasn't hunting? Dressed for hunting does not constitute hunting. I could have been in the back getting a sandwich and coke. He had absolutely no reason to assume I was hunting, opposed to intending to hunt, or recently was hunting.
So, the question is: can a dickhead ask everybody he sees off in the dirt for a hunting license? Will a good percentage respond: I'm not hunting? ((and they don't have one) Where do we go from there? I think he has to accept what they say. "Okay, I guess they aren't hunting" But, this guy had seen enough, me milling around my truck while talking on the phone, to assume that I was hunting.
I think I was within my rights to tell him that I wasn't hunting, and therefore, there was no reason to product a hunting license. That's when he told me that he was watching me and saw that I was hunting. And, I responded that I didn't care what he thought he saw, all I was doing was standing outside my vehicle. and that's when he engaged "COMMAND PRESENCE".
You know, it doesn't take too many of these encounters to develop an attitude.
GH/LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31471 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Bryan J
Cap and Trade Weenie
Member # 106
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posted March 27, 2011 11:30 AM
Sorry to hear of your experience Leonard. Five years ago you had to have a hunting license to access State Lands in Arizona. The way I interpreted it that included gold prospectors, bird watchers, ect.. Paul or jimanaz would know better than me though. I don’t know where you were. I would assume if you were on State Land he would have said as much though?
Posts: 599 | From: Utah | Registered: Feb 2003
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JD
HONORARY OKIE .... and Tim's at fault!
Member # 768
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posted March 27, 2011 11:51 AM
quote:
Being respectful goes a long way on both sides of the fence. I don't think most of us are trying to break the law but sometmes we get distracted and I'll fess up and take my punishment but don't treat me like I just robbed a bank.
That sums it up quite well Tom.
LB, I wanted to put a top knot on that asshole but I imagine a federal prison would be worse than being treated poorly on the side of the road, so we were all VERY polite and complied with everything he asked. I talked to a local warden since then and he wouldn't even comment on the feds but you could tell it was because he didn't have anything good to say, he only said that mine wasn't the only story like that.
My understanding is that they can use any reason they want as probable cause, they have very few limits on how they act, unlike other LEOs I believe they can say what they want and search who they please when they please and justify it by saying you acted suspiciously. Aint that a pinch in the shorts.
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Jason
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What do Obama & TA17Rem have in common........both are clueless asshats!!!
Posts: 1456 | From: NE. | Registered: Dec 2005
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TOM64
Knows what it's all about
Member # 561
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posted March 27, 2011 12:13 PM
My most favorite GW story is about a guy from Calvin, Ok. They had set up a dummy deer and he got wind of it. He got written permission from the land owner and snuck in behind the dummy deer. He then proceeded to blow the crap out of it with his deer rifle until he ran out of shells. He was reloading when they finally stopped him but couldn't prove that he knew it was a dummy and since he had permission, they couldn't fine him for nothing.
He told it as a true story and I can only hope it was true. He's been dead a few years now but he was just honery enough to do it. Heck that's mild to some of the things I seen him do.
Posts: 2283 | From: okieland | Registered: Feb 2005
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted March 27, 2011 04:48 PM
I wasn't on state trust land, it was a ranch where you sign in.
GH/LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31471 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Paul Melching
Radical Operator Forum "You won't get past the front gate"
Member # 885
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posted March 27, 2011 06:54 PM
Sign in ranches are not state trust land ,but private property where they occur in a hunt unit and the land owner permits hunting. As far as I can tell from what you have stated he had no right to question you at all if you were not hunting. Sounds like he assumed you were hunting and and did not want to back out of his assumption. myself I would have produced the documents to save time and potential problems and if pissed enough, speak with his supervisor about hunter relations. After all we pay their salary. If there were no hunters he'd be waxing bowling alleys.
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Those who value security over liberty soon will have neither !
Posts: 4188 | From: The forest ! north of the dez. | Registered: Jul 2006
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