This is topic COULD IT HAPPEN HERE? in forum Member forum at The New Huntmastersbbs!.
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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 25, 2011, 08:53 AM:
While we have been watching events in Egypt, Sudan, Tunisia, Yemen, and now Syria, I think it's time to ask the question: would our military fire on citizens protesting, like maybe the Tea Party. Would the Media Spin Doctors attempt to justify calling out the National Guard, fabricating reasons why they are dangerous and need to be crushed as in the Mid East Dictatorships?
I just want to know if another Kent State would happen here? Only this time, involving Conservatives?
Think about it. How far away are the Media and the Democrats from labeling the Tea Party, dangerous and requiring the use of force?
More importantly; would our men in uniform be motivated to obey orders to bomb unruly elements of the citizenry? I can see CBS, NBC and ABC calling for action, but could, (or would) congress stop it?
What say you?
Good hunting. LB
Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on March 25, 2011, 09:27 AM:
What do you call Ruby Ridge or Waco?
Without (or with) getting into a "us vs. them" thing again, it really is... once they label you as a criminal or terrorist, you're fair game.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 25, 2011, 10:06 AM:
Well, you have a point. One word: Janet Reno. Just like the ideologue, Eric Holder who thinks black on white crime is unworthy of action.
Yes, Ruby Ridge. There should have been an investigation and not a cover up. And, it was a set up, in the first place; hey can you saw the barrel off my shotgun? Same with Waco. The dude drove in to town frequently, in his 'Vet. I guess they needed to climb up on his roof in the middle of the night? Those SOB's knew the cs gas would start fires and lied about it. Both of those adventures were cowboy actions and had George Bush been in charge, he would have been swinging from a rope a long time ago. The Dems have nobody to answer to when shit like that goes down. If anybody should have been swinging from a rope, it's Reno.
So, is the Government infiltrating the Tea Party, but not ACORN?
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Semp (Member # 3074) on March 25, 2011, 10:44 AM:
Demonize the opposition and then destroy it. That is the usual strategy.
The government can turn on its people if history is to be believed. It can happen here. But, as long as the Second Amendment stays somewhat intact, at least the people can shoot back. Most of the poor bastards in those mid east countries don't have that option.
Posted by JD (Member # 768) on March 25, 2011, 10:49 AM:
quote:
I think it's time to ask the question: would our military fire on citizens protesting, like maybe the Tea Party.
Hell yes they will, maybe your asking the wrong question, maybe you should be asking, are you willing to fire back?
Rest assured that WE are the criminals in the minds of many because we support things like the Tea Party and because we own guns and because we don't agree with Obama or we don't want our country over run with illegals and because we dont want to be tolerant of sharia law and because of all the other things that conservatives believe or hold dear.
Check out this link, the media is full of this sort of shit, we just haven't been paying attention.
btw. Janet Napoliano or whatever her F-ing name is just assured the whole world that our border is in fact safer than ever. Now there's a criminal.
Anti immigration gun owners are terrorists
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 25, 2011, 11:15 AM:
I will tell you one thing, it is very easy to get a negative label. People around here comment on my "tank" parked in the side yard.
Don't get caught wearing anything CAMO, or your neighbors will think that you are some sort of wacko "survivalist".
I am very aware, every time I transport a firearm to my vehicle, or take a firearm out of my vehicle. I wonder if a half a dozen squad cars might show up, asking questions. Call me a drama queen, if you like, but I doubt there is another hunter within blocks, and let's face it, "hunter" is just another term for unstable whacko, in the eyes of many sheeple.
That Oklahoma bombing didn't help, either. Right wing nut job doesn't need definition. It means a conservative that probably owns guns.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by smithers (Member # 646) on March 25, 2011, 11:42 AM:
George HW Bush was president in '92 when Ruby Ridge went down.
Posted by CrossJ (Member # 884) on March 25, 2011, 11:56 AM:
quote:
Don't get caught wearing anything CAMO, or your neighbors will think that you are some sort of wacko "survivalist".
Lb, you need to get out of there quick!!!!
I agree that the real question is... " would you shoot back?". Because, I believe they would shoot first. Maybe not active military, but definatly secret service, atf, or even a group of tactical leos'. And no, I don't believe most teapartiers/conservatives would shoot back. Most in this group still believe in common sence and are hoping that things can be changed by rational means. Besides, most still have too much to loose. When the majority has nothing to loose; the shit will hit the fan.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 25, 2011, 12:21 PM:
quote:
George HW Bush was president in '92 when Ruby Ridge went down.
Are you positive? That doesn't seem right. Somebody look it up, I need to see it.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by TundraWookie (Member # 1044) on March 25, 2011, 12:27 PM:
Bush (1989-1993):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_H._W._Bush
Ruby Ridge (1992):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruby_Ridge
Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on March 25, 2011, 12:37 PM:
I often wear some type of camo. It's usually a hat, but sometimes a sweatshirt too. I guess my wife is used to it, and I can get away with it living in a rural or semi-rural county. Down where my parents live it might raise a few eyebrows. I think I will wear camo tonight out to my friend's wife's bithday just to honor this thread, and because I am in that kind of mood.
Guns outside the house? Yes, sometimes I will have them outside, but I try to keep them out of sight of the neighbors or traffic driving up the street. I think the patrol car in my driveway might allay some people's fears, but I don't want to make problems for the town guys either. They have better things to do than show up at my house on a gun complaint.
Now, to Leonard's original question...no, I don't think it will happen here. At least not on a large scale. Maybe the screwups we have seen in the past could happen again, like Ruby Ridge, but I like to think that we learn from our mistakes. The reason I don't think it will happen on a large scale is because LEO's, military, and even the Feds are made up of people just like us. The cops and military guys I know would not want to fire on innocents. That is simply not something we like to do in our culture. Sure there are bad apples, but the majority know it is illegal to obey an illegal order. Ruby Ridge was a screw up where the rules of engagement were changed. Lon Horichi fired on Mrs. Weaver illegally, although someone high up in the FBI changed the rules of engagement and told him he could do so. But again, that is one incident and a few agents which are a small cross section of our Fed, LEO, and military society.
Also, the troops in Libya may be in fear of retaliation upon themselves or their families if they fail to "follow orders." Libya is a different animal from the US.
As for "Us vs. Them," that doesn't happen until riot troops/police get pelted with rocks, urine, feces, bullets, and whatever else. In that situation the troops can use force to defend themselves, though not haphazardly firing into crowds as was done at Tiananmen Square. Again, you won't see that type of thing here. We are the good 'ole US, remember? Where a militiaman was said to be hiding behind every rock and tree during the Revolutionary War.
Amen.
Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on March 25, 2011, 12:46 PM:
Call it bad luck or just being in the wrong places at the right times but...
I've met Randy Weaver, he seemed like a normal guy to me. I watched his daughters interview with William Shatner and she even forgave the FBI sniper and hated the thought of anyone doing violence in her family's name.
I was at Waco shortly after the firestorm and the Texicans unloading my truck seemed to think the ATF was the villan.
I've been to the OKC memorial, know a few who lost loved ones there and have a cousin who transported Terry Nichols back and forth to the courthouse, said he was a wierd SOB that he'd love to have shot while escaping.
I've also known some pure lunatics who I wouldn't put nothing past. Moral of the story, don't trust anyone, the truth is just a matter of perspective.
As to "will they/we shoot back?" be careful the last time this came up the "invited one" was quick to remind that those coming for your guns are regular guys doing their jobs.
It's a hell of a world we live in ain't it?
Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on March 25, 2011, 01:11 PM:
quote:
As to "will they/we shoot back?" be careful the last time this came up the "invited one" was quick to remind that those coming for your guns are regular guys doing their jobs.
The "invited one" huh? Lol that's a new one on me Tom. I expected some flack from you but not this quick!
Please don't describe my posts out of context. There is an awful lot of explanation and insight that went into my responses to the events of the thread you are referring too. It's not always black and white, my friend.
Posted by George Ackley (Member # 898) on March 25, 2011, 01:28 PM:
yea LB and when they come in investigate the phone call they got about you and your gun they will look like a bunch of wontabee Rambo's
there was a time when law enforcement officers had a distinguished hat and wear a tie,
now they dress like a Navy seal in there Bdu's , take a look around they look less and less approachable every time you look at one.
I have really never thought about the scenario you talked about but I have been thinking just how military our
Peace Officers are looking.
[ March 26, 2011, 04:07 AM: Message edited by: George Ackley ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 25, 2011, 01:47 PM:
Well, I guess snookie is right, Bush was Pres.?
But, regardless of who was top dog, the situation was a bunch of bullshit over a minor offense. Essentially, Weaver missed a court date and three people were killed.
I think that's what we are talking about. Would L.E. get involved in some serious enforcement over civil insurrection and thus far the answer seems to be, historically, they sure would.
Good hunting. LB
edit: "THE INVITED ONE" Boy, he, (TIO) picked up on the reference a lot quicker than I did. Tom, you just happened to be in several interesting places. Is it luck, or what?
[ March 25, 2011, 01:56 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on March 25, 2011, 01:54 PM:
"Please don't describe my posts out of context."
Feel free to show me where I was wrong.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 25, 2011, 02:01 PM:
Interesting comment, George. Yes, they have begun looking like combat troops, rather than the local Andy Griffith in Mayberry. Or, Barney Fife, for that matter.
I can remember back when policemen didn't wear body armor or carry a "back up" piece.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by JD (Member # 768) on March 25, 2011, 03:05 PM:
George, That's a damn good post, I agree 100%, they don't look approachable at all or act approachable contrasted against how I remember LEOs when I was a child. Although we would be terribly mistaken to say that they are ALL like that, it's just that the ones that get noticed seem to be like that.
Kinda like after a tornado goes through, who does the media interview, the biggest idiot in town of course.
Posted by DanS (Member # 316) on March 25, 2011, 04:02 PM:
Around here if someone is wearing cammy trousers and a jacket, people just think it's his Hillbilly Lea-sure suit.
The police are looking more military all the time, heck they even call us civilians. Not to mention the officers wearing a cluster of stars like Patton or Ole Ike.
Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on March 25, 2011, 05:37 PM:
How did I forget Katrina, the old lady who they disarmed and FEMA. I was once told that it would be the UN blue helmets that would come to take our guns. Mainly because no police or even our military would turn on it's civilians.
Honestly Nick, my response was to CrossJ's question not your reply.
Does anyone know which side of the aluminum foil goes out? And what's the best way to fold these hats, smooth or wrinkled?
Posted by Bofire (Member # 221) on March 25, 2011, 06:03 PM:
At what point do people decide it is "war" or it is just normal "law enforcement"?
What act would you have to see before you fired on "police, army, whoever?"
When the black dressed SWAT guys raided your neighbor for what ever reason, what would trigger you to fight?
Carl
Posted by Paul Melching (Member # 885) on March 25, 2011, 06:07 PM:
I find the wrinkled shiney side out works best but stay away from windows.and dont read your mail thats how they find you!
[ March 25, 2011, 06:08 PM: Message edited by: Paul Melching ]
Posted by Paul Melching (Member # 885) on March 25, 2011, 06:18 PM:
I was having conversation with my friend Fred when he said something that put it into perspective for me. It was about the time I said they can have my guns if they want to try and take them ,he said " it doesnt matter what you do when they come for your guns but what are you willing to do when they come for your neighbors guns. I really had to stop and think about that.
Just what constitutes an assault on the citizenry.Actually its been happening slowly for a long time kind like cooking the frog.We get lazy and complacent and viola weez fucked!
Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on March 25, 2011, 08:48 PM:
Sorry Leonard, I just caught your edit.
Randy Weaver was at the Tulsa Wannemaker (sp?) gun show along with Bo Gritz(?) a few years and I listened to the both of them, Bo (the army dude who talked him out) was what I deemed as more of a lunatic than Randy.
His daughter was on TV just a few months ago, a very interesting and unexpected view I thought she had.
I went to Waco cause no one else wanted to at the time. It was fresh and the guys sure had their opinions.
OKC, it's 80 miles away from me, around here you're bound to know someone who lost someone. NYC was a tragedy on a larger scale but OKC hit too close to home and was carried out by two of our own. Terry Nichols' trial was held in my hometown.
As for TIO, I was actually posting that before he replied but had to tend to business for a minute or two. Read his response after I posted mine or I'd have included Lon's name instead of sniper. But TIO thinks I'm waiting to jump on his every word and so be it. I didn't want this to turn ugly and remembered you told me to back off a little cause you did invite him here, so "The Invited One" kinda popped out. Didn't figure too many would get my strange humor anyway.
Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on March 26, 2011, 03:48 AM:
Well I did as promised and wore camo out to the bar for my friend's wife's Bday celebration. Funny, one of my buddies comes in and sees my wife and her friends and says, "Oh, I think I underdressed." My wife tells him don't worry about, you are way overdressed compared to Nick. So he comes and finds me in my camo sweatshirt. LOL. Anyways, I wasn't the only guy in the bar wearing camo. I wasn't drinking though.
Tom, I didn't say you were wrong, I said you quoted me out of context.
Back to the subject...I do think Waco and Ruby Ridge were mishandled. From a law enforcement perspective, you have an agency that took charge, which really wasn't experienced in handling incidents such as these. That is my opinion of course. I studied up on Ruby Ridge. Waco...not as much so. Though what I think is sometimes we are better off letting local law enforcement handle the people from their respective areas. The Feebs should come in to assist with their resources, but the local sheriff, or Texas DPS, should have been in charge at Waco. The local LEO's know the people, and know how best to deal with them. Again that's just my opinion from 22 years in law enforcement.
Do I think we will have troops or LE firing into masses of people here in the US? No, I do not, for the reasons stated in my above post.
As far as LE uniforms go...yes, some agencies are going to a more tactical type of uniform. The tactical uniform has its place in law enforcement, but not for the everday street cop. My agency still wears long sleeved wool shirts in summertime, with a tie, just like we did back in 1921 when we started. I will see if I can drum up a pic.
Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on March 26, 2011, 03:55 AM:
Okay here is a pic of our summer uniforms. These guys look like they are ready to gun down innocent American citizens, don't they?
Here is another pic I think I have shown here before.
That's not me in the pic. I am older and less personable.
[ March 26, 2011, 03:56 AM: Message edited by: 4949shooter ]
Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on March 26, 2011, 04:00 AM:
Now these guys really know how to dress:
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on March 26, 2011, 04:00 AM:
In all seriousness, where's your "stinkin' batches"? When my EMS department was placed under new management, we changed to a white uni shirt with no badges, BDU style pants with the gear pockets for our "stuff", specifically to distinguish us fro LEO's in french blue shirts and navy trousers which is what we wore up to that point. Didn't want some crackhead with an "I hate cops" rage on coming after us thinking we were the Po-po. (Sidebar: my spell check is okay with the first "Po", but dinged me on the second one. Go figger!)
Also, LS shirts in summer uni's? Your Chief was cruel.
Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on March 26, 2011, 04:07 AM:
LOL Cdog our stinking badges are worn on our hats.
Yes, the long sleeves are a tradition. I don't think we will ever see a change, or at least not in my life time. It is hot and humid here in summer, and wearing the wool shirt can be miserable. The common joke here is, "Hey 49, did you change the oil in that shirt yet?" Lol.
Posted by George Ackley (Member # 898) on March 26, 2011, 04:14 AM:
if i was asked , NJ state police are the best dress cops in the country !
very professional .
with Philadelphia officers coming in a close 2.
[ March 26, 2011, 04:17 AM: Message edited by: George Ackley ]
Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on March 26, 2011, 04:27 AM:
That Philly cop knows how to wear his hat...brim low.
Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on March 26, 2011, 05:48 AM:
Since we are having fun with pics, here is Gene from our TAC team:
Coming to a crack house near you:
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 26, 2011, 08:20 AM:
Don't care what you say, that chick on the end is smoking hot!
Good hunting. El Bee
edit: the guy with the cat, so familiar, I thought he was a member, for a minute?
edit: 49, the above pics sorta prove the point of a few of the previous posters, trending military all the way.
[ March 26, 2011, 08:24 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by JoeF (Member # 228) on March 26, 2011, 08:39 AM:
Those guys are missing out by not having elbow pads. They're 1/2 dressed.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 26, 2011, 09:23 AM:
In California; they are called "Shields", Lance. Not by the citizens, by the officers themselves.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on March 26, 2011, 09:29 AM:
quote:
49, the above pics sorta prove the point of a few of the previous posters, trending military all the way.
I kinda realized that Leonard, and posted these pics for fun. I figured some of the guys might get riled up when they saw them. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
The fact is, there is a need for such trained and equipped personnel. This team is responsive only, and was called out on the day the pics were taken in response to a drive by shooting in Dover, NJ. The every day officers don't wear all that garb, but there is a valid need for it, in certain instances.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 26, 2011, 10:21 AM:
Disagree. I don't think anybody is riled. Just casual observation of the trend toward bunker mentality among the L.E. brethren. I and the rest would be the first to admit that they serve a purpose. But, I do know they isolate themselves from ordinary citizens.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by DEL GUE (Member # 1526) on March 26, 2011, 11:49 AM:
WTF, did you guys all go off your meds at the same time??? ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
Posted by JD (Member # 768) on March 26, 2011, 12:02 PM:
Meds?? What? Where do I sign up for those?
quote:
Don't care what you say, that chick on the end is smoking hot!
I just can't get past those boots LB, kinda looks like t-bags sister with those things on.
Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on March 26, 2011, 12:47 PM:
World War I Calvary.....lol
Good Hunting Chad
Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on March 26, 2011, 12:48 PM:
I don't think it's as bad as some think Leonard, as far as the bunker mentality. Last night at the party I was at, there were all non-LEO's, until my buddy showed up who thought he was under dressed. The fact is true, that LE types often hang together. But I have noticed over the years that is important to have some good friends who are not on the job also. It creates a balance, at least for me. Maybe Del could attest to this as well.
In posting the TAC team pics I am just being honest and straight forward with you guys in that yes, we do have Teams and there is a valid purpose for them. But the TAC teams are a small, very small segment of LE society. They are very closed mouth, and what goes on on the team stays on the team if you know what I mean. Though I am personally glad to have them.
I don't believe there is any sense in arguing with you guys over this "bunker mentality." Minds are already made up and I don't think it is my purpose to change them. I would just hope that when these topics come up here I can shed a little light on the subject...like maybe bridge the gap, even if it's just a tiny bit.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 26, 2011, 01:17 PM:
Yeah, I know, 49. You catch a lot of flack when we go off our meds. Sorry about that.
But, as far as the subject, isolation, bunker, paranoia and all that you think of when talking about the pressures faced by law enforcement. There is some, and it's not for everybody.
But, the question still is, would some branch of law enforcement or military actually shoot at Michelle Bachman, in a peaceful assembly. What would it take? As far as I can see, Chris Mathews and that other dink Keith Oberman would be speed-dialing 911.......screaming, "do something before they get subversive!" Would cooler heads prevail? What if some firebrand objected to dispersing? What kind of spark would it take before they mowed them all down? just sayin'
Good hunting. LB
edit: 49, that pic you posted with the smokin' hot chick on the end? Do you have a date on that photograph?
[ March 26, 2011, 01:22 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by jimanaz (Member # 3689) on March 26, 2011, 01:38 PM:
I'm friends with the guy who runs the K9 unit for PPD, and like you 49, he's a different cat. I think it goes with the territory and what LEOs are exposed to on a daily basis that ordinary citizens aren't, and understandably so. I also think there's a bunch of cops out there these days that became one because they got their lunch money stolen a time or two, and have an "I'll show you" attitude. Like any group, there's good, and bad. You just have to seperate the wheat from the chaffe. They're union, and once they're in, it's hard to get rid of them regardless of what kind of cops they REALLY are.
What they wear these days does send a message to the public, I think. But, I also think it's evolution and technology at work. If I'm gonna be chasing a crackhead through the 'hood and my life, and the lives of others, depends on how well I do it, I want the best equipment out there. Pretty sure I'd opt for military style stuff over long sleeved wool shirts too. Kinda like Vic's Wranglers and western shirt compared to my ghillie (over Wranglers), you don't need it all the time, but better to have it and not need it than vice versa.
edit to add:
It it was a standoff and niether side was showing any sign of caving, I guess it would all be about percieved threat and danger. Which side pushes too far first? Whether it's a whacko in the "subversive" group, or the kid who's lunch money got stolen in the other one.
[ March 26, 2011, 01:48 PM: Message edited by: jimanaz ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 26, 2011, 02:09 PM:
What if Keith Oberman, cold and calculated, fired a shot during the tense stand off? I really believe that type of liberal would consider it justified, just a matter of time before a Tea Partier threw some lead in the direction of authority; might as well get the ball rolling, eh? Meanwhile, Chris Mathews would get a severe tingle up his leg as events progressed.
Yes, I think it is more likely that somebody could get hurt at a Tea Party rally than at some arm in arm march lead by Jesse Jackson.
GH/LB
Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on March 26, 2011, 05:41 PM:
Leonard the closest I can date that pic is December of 2008. That is when it was downloaded to the Rhode Island State Police article on Wikipedia. Late fall would make sense because the guy in the summer uniform looks like he is freezing. The pic of the guy with the cat I posted here before. I am pretty certain he is not a predator hunter, so I doubt he would be a member here or elsewhere.
Jim I know what you mean about the guy who got abused in high school and becomes a cop, and takes his frustration out on the public. Those types are the bad apples we speak of. I have seen them come and go. You are correct, once they get tenured they are tough to get rid of unless they really screw up. I have seen some get fired before tenure, thankfully.
Posted by smithers (Member # 646) on March 26, 2011, 06:13 PM:
Hold it!!! Snookie!? How'd I get Snookie!?
It will happen. Just a matter of when.
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on March 26, 2011, 06:55 PM:
"In California; they are called "Shields", Lance. Not by the citizens, by the officers themselves."
It isn't just in Cally, LB. Hell, I have three of them in my dresser drawer from back in "the day" One when I was DK856 (Sheriff's Department), one from when I was Medic 112, and another for FD when I was a Captain but it doesn't have my number on it.
That pic is, in fact, the entire RI Highway Patrol. They don't dress nuthin' like Me, Myself, and Irene or whatever that movie was. LOL
As far as the LEO mentality, I'll take a stab at where it comes from. When I got into that, I was a straight edged kid with no tolerance for stepping off the line. I was goal oriented and raised in a family where we volunteered for everything in our community, be that fire department, storm spotting, scout masters, booster club. We were joiners and we chose to associate ourselves with people like us.
Whether you're in law enforcement, fire service or emergency medicine, your job becomes your life style. Your work schedule rarely allows you free time when the rest of the "normal" world is off because your weekends come every other day or in the middle of the week. You're at the station or on duty as much as you're not and when you're a LEO, you don't enjoy the luxury of going to the local well and downing a half-dozen beers with your buddies three nights a week (at least, if you're a cop with character) because it's damned hard to drink with a guy on Friday and charge him with DUI on Saturday.
Most guys in these lines of work are dick hard, get 'er done types who see a situation and their training is to take command and find solutions. For many, being an incident commander is something that is hard to leave when off the clock and people outside the lifestyle have hard time understanding that.
For me, my friends were all partiers and drinkers. I wore a badge. I lived the part all the time, not just when on the clock.
I found myself entering into the private lives of people where I saw things often best left unseen. I dealt with them because it was my job but I can tell you, having been out of the business for a dozen years now, I have memories that I would just as soon not have. Even today, there are people who will ask me about "the worst thing I ever saw" and frankly, I don't want to talk about it because, 1) it's none of their business, and 2) I really don't want to take that walk down memory lane, if you know what I mean. Cops, firefighters and medics get jazzed about many of the same things and people on the "outside" don't understand that, nor do they understand that we talk to one another because we're the only ones who really understand what we experience(d). As a group, responders tend to form a protective herd.
Always makes me recall the cynically humorous remark, "In God we trust. All others, we run through NCIC." There's some truth to that.
The night I got married, our pastor walked up to my brother who was, at that time, the head of one of the largest drug task forces in the central states. He's a bit bigger than me at 6'3" and about 285#, and Pastor says, "I don't think I've seen you in church". Bro smiles and replies, "Well, pastor, when you see what I see Monday through Saturday night, it kinda makes you wonder if Sunday's actually making any difference."
As far as the tactical gear, the clothes are a tool. I like the ACU's I have for hunting because I have pockets for "stuff". I'm not acting like a Johnnie Rambo when hunting. I just have this thing about being orderly with my gear and ACU's (new style BDU's) are rugged, comfortable, and work really well to carry my "stuff" when hunting. The problem is how some of the guys wear the stuff. I was at a fur auction last year and there were four different game wardens there in BDU pants, shoulder holsters and black T-shirts with "KDWP" in five inch block letters across the back. Looked like they were just itching for someone to step outta line and it really created an "us v. them" atmosphere. They'd have been better off wearing their normal unis and working the crowd rather than huddling together like a bunch of antisocial wallflowers.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 26, 2011, 07:54 PM:
I have said many times, as far as attitude coming from Fish & Game, which is what we call them, out here. It's way different than what it used to be, they were fellow hunters and could be relied on to give you accurate advice, we spoke the same language.
Now, I see the bunker mentality everywhere. Some of the people aren't sportsmen, at all, they are either bunny huggers or hard core enforcement types.
Did I mention an event that happened to me just a couple months ago in northern AZ? I was making my way toward the blacktop and another pickup was coming my way. He sorta pulled over and I intended to roll right by him, but he stopped me.
He got out and I could see he was a warden and without a howdy do, he asked me for a hunting license. I told him that I wasn't hunting and he disputed it, said he had been watching me.
I told him that if he was watching me, then he knew that I never walked two feet away from the back of my truck. He got a little vague and asked again for my license and I again told him that I wasn't hunting.
He got huffy and told me to turn off my engine and step out of the truck. Then, he told me to put my hands behind my back, at which point, I objected in no uncertain terms while he was holding my hands together. He said to take it easy, he was just checking me for weapons, and I told him that I had a pocket knife in my left front pocket.
Then he asked me for ID (I think) and I went in my box for my wallet and showed him my AZ hunting license and my CA driver's license. I am very sure that he was surprised that I had a hunting license because I didn't offer it before, just disputing the fact that I was hunting so I did not see where he should be asking me for a license just because I was driving a dirt road.
The problem was that I had immediate problems with my CS24 and had spent at least twenty minutes at the back and walking around to the cab while I placed a call to Foxpro. So, whatever he assumed he had seen, it was wrong and I felt that I was well within my rights to respond as I did because, although I had every intention of walking away from the vehicle and making a stand, I never did and when Foxpro told me they were going to call me back in 15/20 minutes, I drove back to the pavement, which is where I was confronted by Mr Dickhead.
I mean, I was really pissed, as I have never in my life worn a pair of handcuffs, much less been arrested and I was thinking this asshole was going to break my record.....for doing nothing!
After things cooled down, we bullshitted a little bit and he asked me why I didn't want to show my license? I said it was because I wasn't hunting and I did not (under the circumstances) feel that he had the right to demand to see my license.
I still don't see where he had the authority to order me to shut down and get out of the truck. He had asked me if I had a gun in the vehicle, before he told me to get out and I said, "several".
But, I think the game has changed, and attribute a lot of it to Hmong's and other asians that poach bears and other stuff. But, it has definitely become an adversarial situation and I won't go out of my way to wave or anything with these guys. They are suspicious and until I prove to be innocent, I'm potentially guilty of something, yet to be determined.
Yeah, I'm still a little peeved, minding my own business and could have easily been eating dirt!
I'm sure some of you can see his side of it, but I can't. He assumed too much and in the interest of accuracy, I was not engaged as he assumed. I was just checking out my gear, which, to me, does not constitute "hunting". I don't know? Maybe by now, these guys have the authority to demand a hunting license even if I was sitting in a chaise lounge, reading a book?
GH/LB
[ March 26, 2011, 07:57 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on March 26, 2011, 08:54 PM:
I know TV sensationalises everything but the new Game Warden show has some cocky officers from CA, course they know when the camera is on...
I had an incident several years ago where I was leaving the truck with a bow in my hand on a public hunting area along with 4 other guys doing the same thing. A warden drove by and waved at us, we waved back and went on our merry way for the evening hunt.
When I walked out of the woods that evening, 2 officers were writing tickets to the rest of the guys and I got one too. For not wearing orange during muzzleloading season. There was no firearm hunting at all on this place and we didn't think about it.
Me being me, I fought the ticket, went all the way to the Chief Warden and he said it was for our safety. I said if it was for our safety, why didn't he write us tickets when he waved at us while walking into the woods with bows in hand. He said we weren't hunting then and the officer had no obligation to warn us and couldn't ticket us then. I of course then asked, what was the difference when we were walking out?
I paid the ticket and haven't been drawn for any special hunts since. Still makes me mad that they can make the rules up as they go and to contest anything marks you for life. Dang possom cops!
Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on March 26, 2011, 09:23 PM:
I totally agree with you Leonard.Most of the Game and Fish guys I've come in contact with regardless of the area i'm hunting in have been Heavy handed.Most have been real Assholes..Definitely you're guilty until you can prove you're Innocent.
Tom64,
Yeah that kinda shit happens here all the time.I've seen it happen in Nevada too.Ticket a guy for something bogus knowing damn well they are 400 miles from home and most will mail in the fine rather than drive all the way back out to fight it.Even if they know they are innocent.
Good Hunting Chad
[ March 26, 2011, 09:29 PM: Message edited by: UTcaller ]
Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on March 26, 2011, 09:45 PM:
Lance pretty much hit the nail on the head. Everything he said in his post is accurate, and since he said it all I won't say any more.
Leonard, that is a lousy situation you describe. From what I understand, Game Wardens have the right to make Fish and Game type "checks" due to the nature of their job. A standard law enforcement officer would need probable cause or at least reasonable suspicion to stop you and request your driver's license, etc. I remember when I was a teenager, my father, his friend, and myself got stopped by a Game Warden because he saw the feet of the three deer we had killed sticking out of the back of the truck. All the deer were tagged and everything was good. But a standard LEO couldn't have stopped us for that. Game Wardens play by different rules. It sounds like he was busting you though.
Tom, aside from us being on opposite sides of some imaginary fence, sometimes I believe you and I think alike, sense of humor and all.
[ March 26, 2011, 09:51 PM: Message edited by: 4949shooter ]
Posted by jimanaz (Member # 3689) on March 26, 2011, 10:39 PM:
That's interesting, Leonard. I know very few close acquaintances who haven't had an unpleasant experience with an AZGFD warden, except me. Some of them for the very reason you cite. Although I think you were well within your right not to offer your license if you had not been hunting, really, what's the point? You had intentions of hunting, that's why you were there, and it's pretty easy to spot that stuff. Probably wearing camo too, right? You had a license and weren't doing anything wrong. Why not just show it to the guy when he asked the first time. The event would have probably ended on a much happier note.
I'm not defending the guy for his reactions, that would have pissed me off too. He probably could have been a little more creative than lying to you about why he asked in the first place. I dunno about CA fish cops, but the ones here are the most empowered LEO in AZ. They can cite and detain you anywhere, for anything. They have to be kinda edgy at the fact that pretty much everyone they contact is armed, and there are some real pieces of shit out there doing whatever it is that they do in the outdoors. They might refer to it as hunting but I doubt many of this group would think so. I'm happy to see a warden in the field, wish there was more of them. If there was, there'd probably be less locked gates and ranchers who wouldn't spit on a hunter they don't know if he was on fire. I guess maybe they can tell I have that attitude and that's why I don't have any horror stories to tell.
I was along the side of a paved forrest service road a few weeks ago right at dark, and had just finished stowing my gear and snapping a couple pictures when a warden stopped on the road and asked if I had done any good. It was the last day of rifle javelina season and I'm sure he thought that's why I was there. I gave him a brief recap of my day and he told me about a big bobcat he had seen, and where. He was still sitting in the middle of the road and I asked him if he wanted to see my bona fides since we were both there. He said he probably should and pulled off behind my truck. I showed him my license, we made a little more small talk and went our seperate ways. He never had to get out of his truck or do a weapons check on me, and I never burdened him with making any assessment of the situation. He didn't drive away asking himself "Why didn't he just show me his damn license when I asked him to?" either.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 26, 2011, 10:51 PM:
I concede all that, 49. But, ordering me to turn off my engine and get out of the vehicle and he holds my hands behind my back while he frisks me....I believe that is uncalled for. He even folded my side mirror out of the way, like he was afraid I was going to make a run for it.
I should have just sat there and told him to get fucked and see if he pulled a gun on me. That's about his only option since I'm sure he wouldn't have crossed in front of the vehicle. The initial conversation was through my passenger window.
I mean, at what point is a peace officer allowed to pull a gun on somebody when asking for I.D. and at least 30 miles from any town? I don't know, but I think all California Game Wardens became sworn peace officers (oh) maybe 15 years ago? I don't know if that means they can write citations for violations of the penal code as well as the game and fish, which are totally separate and just as thick.
I have the guy's card. I have often thought about calling and discussing the incident, at length. Okay, I'm an attitude case, which ain't against the law, yet.
GH/LB
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 26, 2011, 10:58 PM:
I apologize, Jimanez. I thought you would for sure have the same kiss my ass attitude. I've misjudged you. But, you were the one that said we were too much alike!
GH/LB
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on March 26, 2011, 11:03 PM:
quote:
Me being me, I fought the ticket, went all the way to the Chief Warden and he said it was for our safety. I said if it was for our safety, why didn't he write us tickets when he waved at us while walking into the woods with bows in hand. He said we weren't hunting then and the officer had no obligation to warn us and couldn't ticket us then. I of course then asked, what was the difference when we were walking out?
Tom, The warden probaly figured since you did'nt have safety orange on you would most likely break another law. So they just drive on and then circle back and catch you when youre done hunting and take care of any other issues that pop up as well..
They operate like that most of the time here, rather than just ticket you for a minor offense they just sit it out waiting to see if it gets any worse as far as breaking the laws...
Leonard; Not takeing sides but you were out on that dirt road with the intension of hunting but youre plans were changed due to equipement failure.. You said you had guns in the truck and also a caller.. So I would say you were hunting..
You said you had a Lic. and the warden asked for it so you should of shown it rather than being hostile and refuseing.. The wardens have a whole set of different rules they play by and thats the last guy I would want to piss off...
I run into a warden atleast 2-3 times a year and if you stay on the up and up they won't mess with you and at times can give out some helpfull info....
Posted by jimanaz (Member # 3689) on March 26, 2011, 11:07 PM:
LOL!! Yeah, with just about any and everybody EXCEPT cops. I learned a long time ago that whether you're right or wrong, if you get a cop's hair up, they can make your day miserable. I guess it's just not worth the aggravation anymore.
Posted by JD (Member # 768) on March 26, 2011, 11:51 PM:
I'm OK with the local boys but those federal boys are straight up assholes, early teal season last fall myself and 2 other guys went out and shot our limit right away, 12 birds, we could only find 10, on the walk through the reeds back to the truck here comes someone wearing those huge block letters FEDERAL OFFICER. No big deal we had put in more than a reasonable effort to find those birds so we weren't worried.
That turned out to be the least of our worries, this guy was our best friend, asking all sorts of personal questions and then a few minutes later ask again in a different way, no big deal cause we got nothing to hide. He would ask things like where you from originally before you moved here? How long have you guys known each other? and on and on it went and he would ask one of us a question then turn and ask a similar question to someone else as if he didn't understand the answer that was just given him. Which birds are yours? Who shot the first bird? whose birds are left out in the swamp? blah blah blah
This went on for 15 solid minutes until he asked for our licenses, I had all my papers in order but these 2 guys had forgot to get a FEDERAL duck stamp, they had a waterfowl stamp just not the FEDERAL one, this is THE most common offense because you can't buy one online, you have to physically go pick one up and stick it to your papers, very very common mistake, nonetheless it was a mistake that justifies a ticket, as minor as it is.
But that's where Dr Jeckyl started to morph into something a lot less pleasant, now he went back and started asking these questions again and when we gave the same answers as before he would go off on us and say that we had told him something different earlier which was total BS, we had nothing to hide then and we still didn't after he discovered the violation.
For the next 45 minutes this fucktard grilled us on everything from the friends we grew up with to the number of children we had, profession, how long we've been hunting, at one point he accused me of being a paid guide for the other 2 guys because that was the first time we had hunted DUCKS together and they we're brothers who had recently moved to the area, he told me that once he figured out how much they had payed me that I would be given a hefty fine for guiding on federal land.
He would get absolutely pissed off at us for lying to him and inform us that we didn't have to say anything but since we had been lying to a federal officer we were now FELONS and could be cuffed and hauled before a federal judge. About this time one of the guys stopped him mid sentence and said.... " I have a friend who is a fed and I fully understand that you guys are trained to double talk and say things that aren't true to try and get someone confused if they are lying to you so they will eventually show themselves, but enough is enough, none of us have ever had a violation, you have grilled us and we have told the same answers since you showed up, so write the tickets and we'll be on our way"
I thought this guys head was gonna explode, I had visions of being pistol whipped and cuffed right there, instead he was very rude and blunt after that, took pictures of their guns and birds, wrote the tickets and assured them that he was the nicest game warden they would ever meet cause he could"ve taken the guns and the birds and fined them for each bird and if he wasn't such a good christian man this ordeal could.ve cost them 1200 bucks at least plus the guns, he then told them that if they didn't pay the 150 dollar fine in the next 30 days that it would be like every movie you've seen about the feds, where a black van would pull up in front of your place of employment and guys in dark suits will handcuff you and haul you before a federal judge and federal judges don't like to be bothered with this sort of thing so it would probably be a bad deal so just get it taken care of! Then before this fruitcake left he invited us to come hunt at some freakin refuge hunt that was coming up in KS.
WTF? Really?
As he drove off I waved at him and said "fuck you very much"
My point is......for a minor violation I don't have to be subjected to 45 minutes of bullshit questions and be accused of being a felon and a liar, threatened to be cuffed and hauled before a federal judge. I think he was pissed that he couldn't write me a ticket. He wont always be a federal officer but he WILL always be an asshole!
Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on March 27, 2011, 03:46 AM:
Wow JD that sounds like the stop from Hell. What is the name of that cooking show, Hell's Kitchen? He sounded like that guy.
Leonard I guess what I am trying to say is that the Game officer most likely had a legal right to ask for your license. Though I think he could simply have explained to you the reasons why you may have been legally obligated to show him your license, and what the ramifications would have been if you refused. I guess he felt you challenged his authority and so he did what he did. Though it has been my experience that most people you can just talk into compliance. Perhaps it is different for game wardens, because they may get less "respect" from people that other LE branches do?
Posted by Paul Melching (Member # 885) on March 27, 2011, 06:12 AM:
Im surprised to hear that Leonard, unlike Calif. most of my experiences in Az. have been positive
Most all the critter cops I have had contact with have been regular guys and even helpful. I have even been stopped after fishing on the Salt river without my lic. in posseion and the officer called in my name to verify my # and let me walk. I was clearly in violation ,though not intentionally and could have been cited.I have run nito them numerous times with not so much as a hunting lic. check. most times in the woods as I see them very rarley in the dez.
In Calif. Many years ago I had been on a reomote stream in the eastern sierra fishing with my boys and wacthed the fish cop veiwing us from afar and try to work his way quietly to our location dont know how the element of surpise was goin to help him but he came in behind us I guess so we couldnt flee the scene. He sure saved the public that day I had my lic and my boys were under age to require one. I guess its all a matter of which one you draw that day.
Now in calif. most I have had contact with have had an attitude , maybe they have more a-holes to contend with but we have our share of slob hunters and just plain stupid people.Not to mention drug runners and two legged coyotes.
I think that he could have handled your situation a lot differently and not escallated the tensions.
[ March 27, 2011, 06:13 AM: Message edited by: Paul Melching ]
Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on March 27, 2011, 06:25 AM:
Since we're on a roll...
Contrary to popular opinion, I'm very respectful when stopped by LE until it's time to not be respectful. Otherwords, be nice to me and I'll be nice to you.
One day I asked my dad to go dove hunting with me, he doesn't hunt much but has a lifetime hunting license cause he thought it was a good thing. Anyway long story short, his gun wasn't plugged but we didn't think about it. We walked across the road from his house into the peanut field and boom a warden showed up. Dad had 3 shells in his gun and 2 in his back pocket but he was in the wrong and would accept the ticket cause we forgot. Then he starts doing like JD said, asking us how many birds we killed that morning and all kinds of crap, we didn't hunt that morning but he would have none of that and stopped short of calling us liars. I had enough and called him everything but a white man, trying to pick a fight. Finally dad told him to write the ticket and be done with it. I told him to walk down to the gate when he left cause I didn't like him mashing down the fence to step over it, he did. Dad went to the DA the next day and got it throwed out just because.
Being respectful goes a long way on both sides of the fence. I don't think most of us are trying to break the law but sometmes we get distracted and I'll fess up and take my punishment but don't treat me like I just robbed a bank.
Posted by R.Shaw (Member # 73) on March 27, 2011, 07:32 AM:
Sometimes it doesn't work-out.
Years ago the local warden and one from the neighboring county were patroling the roads during deer season.I think they called it saturation.Anyways, both were dressed in regular hunting clothes..no uniform, no badges, no nothing and driving an unmarked car. Undercover so-to-speak.
They were driving in a rough and outlawish part of the county when they spot a man dragging a doe towards the road during a bucks only season. They stop the car and approach the man, but before they can utter a word the man asks for help getting the deer through the fence. They oblige. The man thanks them and says he has another deer just like this one down over the hill. Would they wait here and help with it too? Ding,ding,ding...of course they agree. The man walks down over the hill and into the brush never to return.
Another warden here had the smart-ass attitude that nobody liked. He jogged to stay in shape wearing a WW2 army helmet....don't ask me. Anyways,during deer season, he spots a couple boys off the road, standing around their pick-up.Ding,ding,ding...gotta be law-breakers. He pulls through the gate and heads their way. Turns-out they were just choring so he returns to the road.
The boys dad had seen the warden pull-through the gate. Pissed-off, he had locked the gate and was standing there when the warden returned. Warden says let me out and the dad replied it would cost 100 dollars. An arguement ensused. Finally the warden radioed headquarters in Jeff City asking for assistance. Their advice...pay the man.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 27, 2011, 10:32 AM:
I don't really know? If you are driving off road, you could be a gold prospector, looking for arrowheads, bird watcher and all kinds of things. And, some of them are going to be wearing camo because it's considered "stylish" in some parts of town.
Does this guy approach everybody standing next to their vehicle and ask for a hunting license?
I think some would reply: we are bird watchers, not hunting. And, they don't have a hunting license.
I do not accept that driving a road and walking to the back of your truck constitutes "hunting" in anybody's mind.
Furthermore, I still think I was within my rights to dispute his version of reality by simply replying that I wasn't hunting. I think the dink was out of line, probably because I intended to drive right by him, in the first place, which caught him off guard, so he was frantically waving me to stop. This could also be an indication of guilt, for some dickheads, but as far as I was concerned, I'm just driving a dirt road, minding my own business. I stopped without him resorting to his concealed red light, so I fail to see a violation of anything and I still can't see where he has the authority to demand to see a license, if I wasn't hunting? Dressed for hunting does not constitute hunting. I could have been in the back getting a sandwich and coke. He had absolutely no reason to assume I was hunting, opposed to intending to hunt, or recently was hunting.
So, the question is: can a dickhead ask everybody he sees off in the dirt for a hunting license? Will a good percentage respond: I'm not hunting? ((and they don't have one) Where do we go from there? I think he has to accept what they say. "Okay, I guess they aren't hunting" But, this guy had seen enough, me milling around my truck while talking on the phone, to assume that I was hunting.
I think I was within my rights to tell him that I wasn't hunting, and therefore, there was no reason to product a hunting license. That's when he told me that he was watching me and saw that I was hunting. And, I responded that I didn't care what he thought he saw, all I was doing was standing outside my vehicle. and that's when he engaged "COMMAND PRESENCE".
You know, it doesn't take too many of these encounters to develop an attitude.
GH/LB
Posted by Bryan J (Member # 106) on March 27, 2011, 11:30 AM:
Sorry to hear of your experience Leonard. Five years ago you had to have a hunting license to access State Lands in Arizona. The way I interpreted it that included gold prospectors, bird watchers, ect.. Paul or jimanaz would know better than me though. I don’t know where you were. I would assume if you were on State Land he would have said as much though?
Posted by JD (Member # 768) on March 27, 2011, 11:51 AM:
quote:
Being respectful goes a long way on both sides of the fence. I don't think most of us are trying to break the law but sometmes we get distracted and I'll fess up and take my punishment but don't treat me like I just robbed a bank.
That sums it up quite well Tom.
LB, I wanted to put a top knot on that asshole but I imagine a federal prison would be worse than being treated poorly on the side of the road, so we were all VERY polite and complied with everything he asked. I talked to a local warden since then and he wouldn't even comment on the feds but you could tell it was because he didn't have anything good to say, he only said that mine wasn't the only story like that.
My understanding is that they can use any reason they want as probable cause, they have very few limits on how they act, unlike other LEOs I believe they can say what they want and search who they please when they please and justify it by saying you acted suspiciously. Aint that a pinch in the shorts.
Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on March 27, 2011, 12:13 PM:
My most favorite GW story is about a guy from Calvin, Ok. They had set up a dummy deer and he got wind of it. He got written permission from the land owner and snuck in behind the dummy deer. He then proceeded to blow the crap out of it with his deer rifle until he ran out of shells. He was reloading when they finally stopped him but couldn't prove that he knew it was a dummy and since he had permission, they couldn't fine him for nothing.
He told it as a true story and I can only hope it was true. He's been dead a few years now but he was just honery enough to do it. Heck that's mild to some of the things I seen him do.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 27, 2011, 04:48 PM:
I wasn't on state trust land, it was a ranch where you sign in.
GH/LB
Posted by Paul Melching (Member # 885) on March 27, 2011, 06:54 PM:
Sign in ranches are not state trust land ,but private property where they occur in a hunt unit and the land owner permits hunting. As far as I can tell from what you have stated he had no right to question you at all if you were not hunting. Sounds like he assumed you were hunting and and did not want to back out of his assumption. myself I would have produced the documents to save time and potential problems and if pissed enough, speak with his supervisor about hunter relations. After all we pay their salary. If there were no hunters he'd be waxing bowling alleys.
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