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Author
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Topic: I didn't know
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knockemdown
Our staff photo editing Guru, par excellence
Member # 3588
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posted June 20, 2011 06:27 AM
Leonard, Nightforce is a brand.
There are two Nightforce lines, NXS and BR.
As for the glass itself, arguing which company is "best" is like arguing who is hotter, blondes or brunettes. What is pleasing to my eye may not give you that same 'wow' factor...
Only way to compare, one to the next, is to have them on hand to discern for yourself. That is, if glass quality alone is what you are wanting to debate.
As for what's made where, it seems like it depends on the price point of the scope itself, not the brand, per say.
It's borderline ridiculous to even try to keep up with what company outsources work & imports parts for each line of riflescopes!
Can anyone think a $800 Leupold VX-L is built "by the same hands" as $200 Leupold Rifleman? Call Leupold & ask 'em, the CS rep on the phone prolly don't even know. Or a Burris Black Diamond, built same as a Fullfield II? Surely, the glass itself is not the only determining factor in price point.
Some companies outsource the production of their lower end lines & simply stick their logo on the side of the finished product. Then that company can peddle a $100 class scope for $225 'cause it has their NAME on it. Product recognition marketing at it's finest...
This seems like what Huskemaw is trying to do with Nightforce scopes, by drawing some vague correlation between the two since some parts used in each may come from a common factory in Japan. I'll maintain that the "same hands" comment is really stretching it, if not lying outright.
And companies like Leupold have been resting on their laurels & former "made in the USA" symbol to peddle lesser quality outsourced units under that same guise. So goes business, nowadays...
Like Tom mentioned, a riflescope manufactered in China, or Japan, is not necessarily crap. The quality of the product is obviously resultant of the parts used & the factory's QC & manufacturing tolerances.
I like the car analogy.
Consider a Ford GT-40 and a Ford Focus. Although it could be proven as fact that the bumper material for both cars comes from the same factory, would it be fair to compare the two, performance wise, on that common basis alone?
[ June 20, 2011, 06:28 AM: Message edited by: knockemdown ]
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UTcaller
NEVADA NIGHT FIGHTER
Member # 8
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posted June 20, 2011 10:41 AM
Over the last few years I've done a couple of things as far as scopes are concerned.
First.I have traded or sold off all of my scopes.Leupolds,Redfields,Burris,Bushnell Elites,Nikon etc.
I have replaced them with Swarovski and Zeiss. Best decision I could have made.IMO
Second. I have bought the lower magnification and lighter weight scopes. They are all 3x10-42,3x9-40,or 3.5x10-44's.
I really like the glass on both scopes and they both hold zero very well....
Granted they are not the top of the line of either brand they are the Conquest,AV,and Z3 series but they are better than the other Scopes I've owned in the past hands down....FWIW
Good Hunting Chad
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted June 20, 2011 01:49 PM
Sounds like life has been very very good to Chad?
It's amazing we were able to kill a coyote with such inferior equipment, years ago. Imagine, a Leupold! Yuk, yuk!
I can still remember the day I was at the range and was forced to wait for a line change so I could see where my bullets were impacting the target.
The guy next to me offered to let me look through his scope, one I was not familiar with, a Leupold?
I don't remember what I did with that Redfield, which I had thought was the best money could buy, but I do remember buying a Leupold 3X9 and raved about it with anybody who would listen. My partner bought one within weeks and we both used those crummy scopes for years afterwards.
But, Chad. Couldn't you at least put ONE of them on a rimfire instead of the recyclables, Monday morning?
gh.lb
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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TOM64
Knows what it's all about
Member # 561
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posted June 20, 2011 03:31 PM
Chad, I have a buddy who worked his way into a tub of money and decided to take his kid on an elk hunt out West.
He then decided they both needed new guns and bought Sako's, one in 300WSM, the other 270WSM. For glass he wanted something better than Leupold so he bought Zeiss Conquest's for both of them.
One of them wouldn't sight in, turret wouldn't move, the other fogged after they got there. I know it was a fluke but it always makes me smile...
Posts: 2283 | From: okieland | Registered: Feb 2005
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Paul Melching
Radical Operator Forum "You won't get past the front gate"
Member # 885
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posted June 20, 2011 03:54 PM
Tom
i hate stories like that even if they stand behind their product youve lost time sighitng in mounting and ruined the trip of a lifetime.
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Those who value security over liberty soon will have neither !
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tlbradford
Rimfires are MAGIC on COYOTES! If you do your part
Member # 1232
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posted June 20, 2011 05:57 PM
Stories like that is why I rely on Leupold. They might not have the best glass anymore, but they are certainly the toughest scope I, and all of my friends, have hunted with. Now binoculars are a different story, and I haven't ever liked any pair of Leupold binocs that I have looked through.
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"Dan Carey ain't that special" - LB
Posts: 423 | From: Spokane Valley, WA | Registered: Mar 2007
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted June 20, 2011 06:58 PM
Tom, not doubting you, but do you know the facts and circumstances about the Conquests, or just taking somebody's word for it?
gh....lb
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Field Marshall, Southern Minneesota Sector
Member # 794
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posted June 20, 2011 07:27 PM
The way I see it is the only time a shooter needs the best Glass is when doing 600 yd matches or more and when calling at night without a lite..
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What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
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TOM64
Knows what it's all about
Member # 561
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posted June 20, 2011 08:33 PM
Leonard the guy is a friend of mine and I trust what he said but I wasn't there either time.
I think he was trying to sight the gun in and it wouldn't with the first one, took it back to the dealer and he swapped it out.
The second one fogged in Colorado, it was made good too.
He's still a Zeiss fan and I've sent back a number of Leupolds myself but the first 2 back to back was something.
I have a suspicion that the dealer mounted those scopes and I've seen him twist the front ring in with the scope tube before among other things. I didn't even want him opening boxes for me.
But no, I wasn't at the range, in the store or in Colorado to see for myself.
Posts: 2283 | From: okieland | Registered: Feb 2005
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted June 20, 2011 09:59 PM
Well, I don't own dozens of anything. I have had very little trouble with Leupolds, other than accidents. I sold a Leupold to a guy that managed to get powdered graphite inside a scope and I returned it for him. Of the rare times I have had to return a scope to them, the turn around was always prompt.
I own exactly one Conquest, it's a 4.5X14X44 in silver and I think it is optically excellent, never had any problem and it's four or five years old. The odds that someone would get two bad scopes seems long, more like very long. And, they aren't exactly cheap, either. I would expect some quality control in that price range.
Anyway, okay. It happened. But, it is very hard to believe.
gh....lb
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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UTcaller
NEVADA NIGHT FIGHTER
Member # 8
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posted June 20, 2011 11:06 PM
Leonard actually I do have a Burris fullfield 2 3x9 on a HMR now that you mention it.lol
"Sounds like life has been very very good to Chad?"
No that's definitely not the case.I just made the mistake of buying one of the Conquest scopes(3.5x10-44). lol
I was so impressed I bought a couple of the 3x9-40's when they had them for 400 bucks.
Then I got a great deal on a Swarovski AV 3x10-42.That one is my favorite.
And then just recently I popped for the new version the Z3 in the 3x10-42.Sure it broke the bank alittle but after the initial sting I had no regrets.
Good Hunting Chad
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TOM64
Knows what it's all about
Member # 561
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posted June 21, 2011 05:18 AM
If you have learned anything about me in the past few years, I'd have hoped it was that I'm as honest as they come but whatever...
If you ever look through a Zeiss Diavari or better line, you'll throw away your American made Conquests. Well you might not throw em away but you'll see Zeiss didn't earn their reputation with the Conquest line. Compromises were made.
Posts: 2283 | From: okieland | Registered: Feb 2005
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knockemdown
Our staff photo editing Guru, par excellence
Member # 3588
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posted June 21, 2011 06:43 AM
The failure rate of Leupold scopes by shooters & instructors at tactical comps & rifle classes is well known among that crowd. These guys abuse their gear & if something is gonna let go in a scope, those are the guys who will break it.
That's why those types have a hard on for overbuilt scopes like NXS, USO, S&B, Premier, etc. What good is glass, if ya bump your rifle and the dang scope loses zero?
Leonard, if it makes ya feel any better, I had a USO scope out on an AZ predator hunt a couple years back. Was showing scope to my huntin' buddy in the hotel, as he had never seen a US Optics scope before.
To show him how much I trusted the repeatability of the Erek elevation turret, I picked the AR up, holding it ONLY by the Erek turret itself. The entire weight (10.5 lbs.) of the rifle was hanging below & from the Erek knob!
Then, I spun the rifle around like a propellor under the turret, from stop to stop... TWICE, then back to zero & called it good.
You shoulda seen the look on his face!
I shot two coyotes the next day, one of which was hung up at over 500. That one got dialed & dumped. When I checked zero before the egg shoot comp later that day, it was spot on...
I sincerely doubt many other scopes could take that abuse & still function. Sure, it's extreme, but that peace of mind is why some guys choose to run those scopes on their hunting rigs.
I hope you'll be pleased with yours...
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Possumal
HONORARY CALLS FORUM MODERATOR edit: AND TOKEN LIBERAL
Member # 823
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posted June 21, 2011 07:40 AM
A lot of interesting comments on this thread. Like one of the guys said, if the scope works for you, you might rate it even or better than more expensive scopes. There is a world of difference with Burris scopes from the bottom of their line to the top. The Black Diamond and up are excellent and do everything I could ever ask for. Same for Bushnell. The Elite 6500 has really good glass and features. The better Burris and Bushnell have great light pickup power too. For the guys who can't ever afford the top end Zeiss and Swarovski products, the top end Bushnell and Burris will serve them well.
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Al Prather
Foxpro Field Staff
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TOM64
Knows what it's all about
Member # 561
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posted June 21, 2011 08:25 AM
A good point, How much would you trust a bottom line scope from a top of the line maker?
In my experience, skilled craftsmen don't do to well when trying to do it on the cheap.
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Possumal
HONORARY CALLS FORUM MODERATOR edit: AND TOKEN LIBERAL
Member # 823
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posted June 21, 2011 08:50 AM
I wouldn't want the lower end scopes from Bushnell or Burris. They are clear enough and have decent light pickup, but you are giving up a lot of features that are included on the top end such as Rain Guard. I suspect they are not made as tough either.
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Al Prather
Foxpro Field Staff
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UTcaller
NEVADA NIGHT FIGHTER
Member # 8
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posted June 21, 2011 09:03 AM
"A good point, How much would you trust a bottom line scope from a top of the line maker?"
For me? Enough to buy six of them(Swarovski,and Zeiss that is).And in my opinion they have been much better scopes than the majority of the mid to higher end Leupold,Nikon,Bushnell,Redfield and Burris scopes I've owned in the past.
Good Hunting Chad
[ June 21, 2011, 09:06 AM: Message edited by: UTcaller ]
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TOM64
Knows what it's all about
Member # 561
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posted June 21, 2011 11:07 AM
Doubted my memory and made a call...
I was wrong, the scope that I said fogged was dropped and the lense fell out.
The other one was correct, the turrets wouldn't track.
He also no longer buys Conquests.
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted June 21, 2011 11:22 AM
That's kind of picky ass, if you ask me?
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31474 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted June 21, 2011 11:23 AM
lol
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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3 Toes
El Guapo
Member # 1327
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posted June 21, 2011 11:31 AM
Just so you guys know, Huskemaw isn't advertising that they are the same as NightForce. It just came up in a casual conversation when I asked who was making thier scopes. Not info they pushed on me or used as a sales gimmick. As for the rest, ANY scope can go bad. I saw a US Optics just the other day that the owner had just gotten back from them due to tracking problems. But it had been on a .375 Cheytac that the local gunsmith had made. (Thats a .416 necked down to .375 for you wildcatters!)
[ June 21, 2011, 11:32 AM: Message edited by: 3 Toes ]
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Violence may not be the best option....
But it is still an option.
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csmithers
unknown comic
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posted June 21, 2011 12:10 PM
Cheytac... Drool, drool...
Long range goodness!
[ June 21, 2011, 12:10 PM: Message edited by: smithers ]
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted June 21, 2011 12:25 PM
No worry, Cal. Your credibility is still intact. Fred! Down boy!
Anyway, along the same lines, I was at Fish Canyon (before it closed) and there was this guy next to me. Now guys on the bench, evaluating loads or shooting groups hate to have those damned BOOMERS next to them!
So this guy had a (I think) it was a 30-378 Weatherby and a big Swarovoski. Again, "I think" it was a 6X20 or something in that range, which I thought was way too much scope for that gun. But, it proved way too much "gun" for that scope. Within an hour, the internals weren't responding to various and numerous clicks.
I got a kick out of that....what a sadist, huh?
gh/lb
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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csmithers
unknown comic
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posted June 21, 2011 01:09 PM
I looked into the Assembled in the USA and Made in the USA issue a while back. The Federal Trade commission regulates this and there are penalties that go along with it, if it is false.
The reason I was looking into it was in regards to knives and multi- tools. I'm a Made in the USA knife snob ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
[ June 21, 2011, 01:10 PM: Message edited by: smithers ]
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knockemdown
Our staff photo editing Guru, par excellence
Member # 3588
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posted June 21, 2011 04:21 PM
Indeed, sir.
I wasn't questioning Mr. Cal's integrity at all, rather the info he received. Word of mouth info is what it is, and that's what it is...
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