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Author
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Topic: Dual Purpose Coyote Rifle
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Brent Parker
Knows what it's all about
Member # 4354
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posted December 15, 2015 06:02 AM
Ok guys here is were I am at. I need a rifle that will be used primarily for fur but will serve as a back up denning rifle. I am at a cross roads. The rifle will be built on a current Tikka T3 in 22-250. It will have a 20" barrel because of a suppressor. Cartridge is between a 22-250 AI to shoot either 62 TTSX or 65 Sierra or a 6 XC or .243 shooting Barnes 80 TTSX or 85 Partitions. Either rifle will have a 1-8 twist barrel. Ranges from 0 to 600. I want two holes and don't want to care about angles. Which would you build?
Posts: 172 | From: 2 miles east of Vic | Registered: Mar 2013
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3 Toes
El Guapo
Member # 1327
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posted December 15, 2015 06:23 AM
I get the idea of the 22-250 AI. Its a souped up hot rod. I shoot a 22x47 Lapua with 60 grain Bergers. It's very similar. What I am confused about is the 6xc. Basically a slowed down .243. I'd rather have the .243 or .243 AI.
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Violence may not be the best option....
But it is still an option.
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Brent Parker
Knows what it's all about
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posted December 15, 2015 07:08 AM
Cal,
I had hoped you would reply we are in similar positions only you more so. Hows that 60 Berger on fur?
The 6 XC I have shot for several years and can be run pretty hard. I have only gave up 100-150 fps. to a .243 with the same bullet weight in the past. No preference between the two. Is the 22x47 used for both fur and denning? I am building a .260 for my primary denning rifle. Seems to always be windy then and looking for a good bc/ bullet weight combo.
Coyotes are pretty thick this year. Made my first outing this last weekend and called 10 in the first two stands. Killed 5 with the dog. Was running a 22-250 with 55 NBT. Not happy with that bullet loading up some Sierra 55 SBT. This one is a 14 twist.
Posts: 172 | From: 2 miles east of Vic | Registered: Mar 2013
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Leonard
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posted December 15, 2015 10:24 AM
So, Cal. I guess you ran out of the 62 Bergers? Chad in Utah has been using the 60 Berger. How do you rate the two bullets?
My volume is nowhere near your's so I still have a few hundred 62's and same amount of 60's, which I have never loaded. This is for my 22-243Middlested, which is almost identical to a straight 22-243Ackley, with a little better geometry and about a grain more capacity.
Brent. I know 5 or 6 people that shoot the 22-250AI with the 55 Nosler BT. They seem to love them? Is your concern accuracy or terminal performance? So, the chambering is a stock 22-250Remington? That could possibly be the difference because the Ackley is good for maybe +300fps in a long barrel.
The Sierra is not going to be a fur bullet, you know that?
I don't know anything about 260Remington but I know it is able to handle heavier bullets than a 243, and
with much better BC.
I'm not real sure and not current, but once upon a time Cal was restricted from recovering fur, so his mission was/is control and denning. And, besides, Brent. If you want two holes in a coyote, kinda seems like the Nosler will do that, without excessive expansion?
That's what I get from the 65 Starke HP, (what I have left) at over 3900fps, I get pass throughs with excellent hydrostatic shock. I use that bullet in 22-250AI.
With bullets, you just never know? I mean, (you know) "the plan". If it doesn't do what you hoped, it's time to look at PLAN B.
Good hunting. El Bee
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32366 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Brent Parker
Knows what it's all about
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posted December 15, 2015 11:45 AM
Lenard,
The rifle currently is a 22-250 22" barrel but at some point will be rebarreled and then will be either a 22-250 AI or .243. I shot 5 coyotes with the 55 NBT and all had major entrance holes, accuracy was good with them. No exits. Feel like I will give the #1365 sierras a try they can't do any worse. Looking for a 50 cent pc. hole or smaller on exit. If they don't work will try the 63 sierra next.
Barrel length is only going to be 20" in the rebarreled rifle with either chambering. A suppressor adds length and weight and 20" barrel length has worked out best so far for me.
For bullets in a 22-250 AI fast twist I think either the Barnes 62 TTSX or Sierra 65 SBT could serve double duty.
In a fast twist .243 either the Barnes 80 TTSX which I have used before and had good results, or the Nosler partition 85 gr. could work.
The rifles main purpose is fur.
Now if my 260 would go down for any reason I would just grab this rifle and go.
Posts: 172 | From: 2 miles east of Vic | Registered: Mar 2013
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knockemdown
Our staff photo editing Guru, par excellence
Member # 3588
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posted December 15, 2015 12:02 PM
Leonard, the .22-243Middlestead has a milder shoulder & holds ~2grains less than the 40° AI version. Lapua .243 cases hold 55.1gr H2o when blown out in my Ackley.
Brent, would going another 2" kill ya on the barrel length? .224 caliber hotrods like 'em as long as you can tolerate, and I bet you'd gain 150fps with a 22" barrel. Just sayin', don't build a race car & put shitty tires on it ![[Wink]](wink.gif) Its that extra 'oomph' of velocity that makes the magic happen, so don't hamstring yourself too badly with a short tube...
I doubt a coyote will know the difference in speed, but you might if the shooting starts to get further on out.
[ December 15, 2015, 12:03 PM: Message edited by: knockemdown ]
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Leonard
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posted December 15, 2015 12:28 PM
Wow. A lot to chew on there.
As far as I am concerned, the difference in performance between a stock 243W and a 22-250AI terminally, you can't hardly wedge a piece of paper between, depending on the bullet.
A 22-250AI doesn't need a "fast" twist for 65 grain bullets. Maybe a 1X12" ? One of mine is 12 and the other, faster one is 1 in 14". The problem is, where to get a decent hunting bullet below 68 grains.
You mention #1365 and also write; SBT. That, to me means spitzer, boat tail. I could be mistaken but I thought the 1365 was a flatbase? I have tried both, various times and much prefer the flat base on game, but it's personal choice all the way.
Same thing with a 243. I think standard twist is 1X10 and that's plenty fast to stabilize either bullet you mention, Barnes 80 or Nosler partition? Don't know why you would want that one, I think (not sure) they make a 95gr. partition but if I was considering something in the 80/85 grain range, I would pick the 85 Nosler Ballistic Tip. But, you know what you want, I don't.
On the other hand, for FUR, if it were me, I would look at a pass through bullet in a 243W. Right now, the only two bullets I use in 243 is a 70gr. Nosler Ballistic Tip and the 74 gr. Berger. The 70 BT is possibly the most destructive 24 cal. bullet I have ever used. The 74 Berger seems to work pretty good, based on less than 100 animals?
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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Brent Parker
Knows what it's all about
Member # 4354
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posted December 15, 2015 01:22 PM
KD and Leonard,
I think you have answered the question. Looks like a .243 it will be.
Leonard it has been my experience a faster twist kills better. It also gives you options to run heavier longer bullets.
Fred no it wouldn't kill me to run a 2" longer barrel but I can't think of one time were I took a shot and thought "Dam wish I had a 2" longer barrel." I killed coyotes out to 587 last year with a 20" .243.
Looks like I need to get a reamer and barrel ordered.
Thanks Brent
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Leonard
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posted December 15, 2015 03:02 PM
I give up, Fred! Where did you get that information?
I said Ackley but didn't mean Ackley? I was thinking of the necked down 243 to .224" bullets and I have been looking at a lot of data and posts, 20deg versus 30deg versus 40 deg.? Apparently the Middlested has a slightly longer neck?
Anyway, where can I find case capacity for three different versions? What I am hearing is that in popular bullet weights there isn't much difference?
Brent, what I actually meant about the terminal performance of a 22-250Ackley and a 243Winchester....is that on a dead coyote the results are the same based on thousands of examples.
I use both of them. Of course, bullet selection will change results but day in, day out, it's pretty hard to beat a plain vanilla 243Winchester.... I also shoot the 6mmRemington and the 243Ackley.
A 243W makes a no fuss coyote cartridge and it's versatile. It will shoot light bullets and heavy bullets and anything in between. One thing about it, you will not regret your choice because it won't fail you. It's like a blank piece of paper, pick the twist, pick the bullet and you can do almost anything with it.
Good luck, El Bee
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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3 Toes
El Guapo
Member # 1327
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posted December 15, 2015 05:57 PM
I did run out of the 62's. So I bought several boxes of the 64's which didn't impress me in my rifle. So I tried the 60's and am happy. No noticeable difference between the 60 and 62. Brent, the 60s do ok on fur. Very few exits. LB, our county dropped out of the federal (USDA WS) program about 3 years ago, so I do skin and utilize alot of fur. We are a private county program now and I work for the county with the help of some state funding. I shot a plain jane .243 for years and killed a pretty big pile of coyotes with it. I have since tried several wildcats and in the grand scheme of things haven't really improved on what that .243 would do. I have spent a lot of money and had a lot of fun messing with other stuff, but a 243 win or 6mm rem is just hard to improve on. Light bullets or heavy.
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Violence may not be the best option....
But it is still an option.
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UTcaller
NEVADA NIGHT FIGHTER
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posted December 15, 2015 06:06 PM
Yeah like Leonard said I have been using the 60 grain Bergers in my .22-250 Ackley. It has been a great Coyote killer for sure. But I wouldn't say it is the most fur friendly gun I shoot. Usually quarter to silver dollar sized exit holes. Mine is 26" 1/12 twist. And the bullets are running about 3800fps.
Good Hunting Chad
[ March 23, 2016, 02:11 PM: Message edited by: UTcaller ]
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Brent Parker
Knows what it's all about
Member # 4354
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posted December 15, 2015 07:59 PM
Everyone Thanks for the replies. I think I am going to try 80 TTSX to begin with. I am forced to use non-lead bullets for my Game and Fish contract so using the same bullet makes it simple. I killed roughly 50 coyotes with that bullet. Not alot but a good sample and all different angles. Most holes were quarter to 50 cent size and every now and then I would have a bigger one normally on bone. Almost always exited. I had just wondered if I could have done better with a hot .22. From the sounds of it its a wash. I do like how the six's carry the energy to a coyote at extended range.
Here is a video of the project I just finished up on. They don't list details but 259 coyotes removed over 4 years.
https://youtu.be/WfZmxDvBxUo
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Lonny
PANTS ON THE GROUND
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posted December 15, 2015 08:50 PM
I watched the video Brent and was wondering how big is the area (Seynoida Plain? SP?) that they talk about in the video?
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Brent Parker
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posted December 15, 2015 09:41 PM
Roughly 10 miles x 8 miles give or take.
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Lone Howl
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posted December 15, 2015 09:55 PM
Awsome vid. Love that kind of stuff.
Mark
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When tyranny becomes law, rebellion becomes duty.
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knockemdown
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posted December 16, 2015 05:19 AM
Fantastic video!!! Wonderful to see the emotion behind the project, kudos to all involved!!!
Brent, I hear ya. Practical experience trumps all & you've got that in spades! As a rifle junky, my default setting is to try to get the most out of whatever I'm building, hence my opinion. I do realize that eeeking out every last fps from a rifle/load is not at all a necessity, I just like to know how much pedal is left before it hits the floorboard...
Leonard, the Middie is a step up from the straight (neck down & shoot) .22-243Win. The improvement in shoulder angle (to 30 °) allows for a bit more internal volume and less case stretch that the parent case 20° shoulder angle might suffer from.
The .22-243AI is a full blown out version of the .22-243Win. Has little/no body taper left and a sharp 40° shoulder. Same as your Middie, neck down to create a false shoulder and fire away. The end result is a case that holds ~4-5gr more than a .22-243Win, and ~2gr more than a .22-243Middlested.
.22-243Win (fireforming load) left, .22-243AI right.
The Middlested falls somewhere in the 'middle'...
PS, not questioning anyone's credentials, but if you guys shot a .22-243( or AI) side by side with a 243( or AI) in the wind, from 3-500yds, you'd prolly raise an eyebrow at the difference. With same weight bullets, the b.c. improvement makes the .224 caliber a flatter shootin', wind cheatin' SOB...
[ December 16, 2015, 05:28 AM: Message edited by: knockemdown ]
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Leonard
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posted December 16, 2015 06:36 AM
Thanks, Fred. So, if I had not mistakenly said "Ackley" I would have been accurate...I think that's what it is boiled down to?
I bought this rifle from Mercer Lawing and had just barely heard of the Middlested. He had one of those realizations that he was a confirmed 17 caliber fur hunter and had little use for some of the other stuff gathering dust in his safes. He had a 240 Page and this Middlested, but the Middlested came with a spare barrel in 22-250Ackley and a bunch of fireformed brass for both. He intended to just keep just one super accurate rifle in 22-284W for contests. So, that's how I got to where I am. And, I am very pleased with performance, without all the bullshit of building another rifle. That USED to excite me but anymore, with all the long lead time, etc., the thrill up my leg kind of evaporated.
I have the 62 Berger @3810fps and accuracy is as good as I can shoot. Other than blowing the hell out of a few gray fox, what I get from the 62's is dead coyotes without excessive damage. If accuracy holds up, I will probably never need another daylight coyote rifle? Shit, I have yet to screw on the Ackley barrel. I'm good. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
But, for those of you out there, still building that "Dream Rifle", good luck! I appreciate all the passion involved. And remember, it's YOUR dream, not mine or Fred's, so it will do everything! lol
Good hunting. El Bee
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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knockemdown
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posted December 16, 2015 09:06 AM
Fuckin' A right!
Please forgive my zeal for living vicariously thru your builds, guys. I just love this rifle shit, and thoroughly enjoy the topic...
22/284? I've been considering a 6SAUM for shits & giggles, wonder what a .224SAUM would do??? ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
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Leonard
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posted December 16, 2015 09:24 AM
There's MAGIC in the words, Fred.
For me, for years, it was 22Swift! Wow! Then, Ruger started chambering the Model 77V in 220Swift. I HAD to have it! I killed more predators with that rifle than anything since.
Ever since I shot my first bobcat with a borrowed Pre '64 Model 70 in 220Swift. Not exactly between the eyes, the bullet slipped into his left nostril. I was hooked.
Many words have MAGIC, like "Ackley", "Magnum" and "big tits"; stuff like that.
Good hunting. El Bee
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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knockemdown
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posted December 16, 2015 11:47 AM
Leonard, this .22-243AI IS my "Swift", no doubt!
Reason I wanted a .22-243AI is actually Randy S' fault. At the time, I had my .22-243Win in Nebraska and compared one of my cases to one of his Improved cases. As evidenced in the pic above, its easy to see there's quite a bit more room for boom with the AI!
Although Randy didn't feel the increased capacity was worth it for the bullet weight range he likes to use, I just couldn't help from trying that big bastid with a fast twist & heavier boolits to see how much it could beat my (already badazz) .22-243Win.
Well, it does! And no trimming needed, minimal sizing & better brass life. My only concern was feeding, but happily and those no taper SOBs actually feed smooth as butta from a DBM!!! IMHO, can't beat that bitch on a short action, no way! Well, maybe a .22SAUM might...
All fun stuff!!! Figure somebody has gotta be an idiot and try crazy shit, may as well be someone like me who enjoys it!?!?
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Leonard
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posted December 16, 2015 12:15 PM
Have fun while it lasts, Amigo. Hope it doesn't wear off for you. As I said, It doesn't blow my skirt up like it once did.
Everybody has a dream. Nobody ever did it before! <shrug>
It is fun, I can't disagree.
I have long guns taking up space that I have lost interest in and should probably move it out, but it looks like I am more of a hoarder. Not like Vic, who really blows through an inventory.
Then there is the Okie boys and their short arms. A shelf for S&W, one for 1911 Colts, one for wheelgun Colts, two shelves for Glocks and another for Rugers and plastic bags full of Sigs and Desert Eagles.
(just kidding)
I think I am jealous? Whereas, I can easily put all handguns on one shelf with room to spare.
Truth is, I don't have the money for those goodies. I still have a mortgage!
Good hunting. El Bee
edit: I agree with what AR SHAW thinks, as far as in my application, any version of necking the 243 case to 22 caliber is good enough for my needs. Fred doesn't have problems chambering his Ackley version, which can be a real problem, for others. My Middlested is perfectly fine for what I use it for and as Shaw told me once, I stole it. I actually think I did!
[ December 16, 2015, 12:27 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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Brent Parker
Knows what it's all about
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posted December 17, 2015 12:51 PM
Fred,
I have looked at the 22-243 AI and the wind drift and it is impressive. If I thought it perform in a 20" barrel I would probably go for it. I have a feeling it couldn't get it done in that short of a barrel. When your's is shot out cut it too 20 and let me know what you can get out of it with 80's.
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Leonard
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posted December 17, 2015 02:43 PM
No, you're right Brent.
To realize that level of performance, you need at least a 26" barrel. I have a few that go 28 and one is 30" but a 26" barrel does well.
The thing about a 243 is it does perform reasonably well in a short, let's say 22" barrel. You need to choose a slightly faster burning powder for a short barrel.
I had a 6mmRem once that had a 20" barrel. The initial powder I tried was interesting. When fired, it looked like a flamethrower, for at least ten feet from the end of the barrel. The solution was a slightly faster powder that burned completely, inside the barrel, not ten feet past the muzzle.
So, when you look for data, you need to remember that most of the loads you see published will be for average 24 inch barrels, unless noted. If the high velocities are with (for instance) IMR4350, you might be better served with H4064....something like that?
You will figure it out. A 243 is pretty easy to master.
Good hunting. El Bee
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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knockemdown
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posted December 18, 2015 04:26 AM
Brent, mine's maybe only 1/2 way thru life, but I'll do that when it's toast!
Possibly of more expedient help, I have a friend in Utah who's waiting on a reamer to build a 'semi-short' .22-243AI for a can. Will follow up with #s when he's spooled up & runnin'...
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Leonard
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posted December 18, 2015 10:09 AM
Hey, some of us may not be around for as long as it takes to wear out a barrel exclusively, (or primarily) killing coyotes.
I can safely say it's only happened to me once. I shot a Ruger chambered in 220Swift for something like fifteen years before I gave up and realized the accuracy was gone and never coming back.
And, even then, I still have my "loaner" shooting the long 63gr. Sierra semi pointed way out, to engage what's left of the rifling. So, it's still a long ways from a tomato stake. What a cheap ass!
Good hunting. El Bee
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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