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Author
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Topic: Dual Purpose Coyote Rifle
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knockemdown
Our staff photo editing Guru, par excellence
Member # 3588
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posted January 21, 2016 06:42 AM
For shits & giggles, I have an idea to have a 2nd .224 barrel with a 1:12 twist chambered alongside the 1:8 that's already on deck.
With my Surgeon 591 & action wrench, and a barrel vise, it would only take a couple minutes to swap between them...
Anyhoo, it'd be interesting to see firsthand what both are capable of! Gonna call Swampy today & see what he thinks about his 60gr JLK handling ~4200fps MV. Hoping that ~252,000 rpm shouldn't be too much for 'em? A .339 G1 bc is very decent for that weight bullet, wouldn't slow down in much 400yds, I reckon!
But then, there's that thing about establishing 'on game' performance, which would take me a while to accomplish! All in the interest of science, no doubt.
I agree with you guys on the drop vs. drift deal. And I know that Dave has long been a proponent of the same slow twist & warp speed bullet launch. Might be more a factor of finding a .224 caliber bullet that'll perform favorably?
Any suggestions, gents?
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted January 21, 2016 07:43 AM
Not really? I mean, I'm not keeping up with all the trendy advances. I just bailed on the fast twist bandwagon a long time ago for my own reasons. My 22-250Ackleys are 12 and 14 twist and the velocity is right up there. Based on my self imposed limitations, I can get mid range 62-65 grain bullets to do what I want, very satisfactorily.
Personally, I don't have the time to consult a ballistic calculator when I have a coyote (not moving) at an undetermined range, therefore, a flat shooting rifle/cartridge/bullet combination is valuable. A little holdover is all it takes and cross my fingers on the unknowable wind at target distance. I don't think it too deeply past this point.
However, if you are talking about breaking out the action wrench, in the field....include me out. You can only take the "set of golf club" concept so far.
Good hunting. El Bee
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31465 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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knockemdown
Our staff photo editing Guru, par excellence
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posted January 21, 2016 11:43 AM
Just ran #s
Baseline is a 75Amax @ 3600fps.
If I could get a 60gr JLK ramped up to 4200 from a 1:12 twist barrel, it'd shoot 0.5" flatter @ 300yds and 2.2" flatter @ 400yds. Not ground breaking-ly flatter. But...
Comparing rpm, the fast twist & heavy 75Amax is rippin' @ 324,000
While the slow twist 60 JLK is spinnin' 252,000 rpm
That might translate more favorably to increased barrel life?
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DAA
Utah/Promoted WESTERN REGIONAL Hunt Director
Member # 11
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posted January 21, 2016 12:53 PM
.339 @ ~4200 would be a flat shooting sumbitch by anyones standards. Hold on fur to 400, easy.
- DAA
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"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter
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knockemdown
Our staff photo editing Guru, par excellence
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posted January 22, 2016 05:04 AM
Wonder if a .22-243AI could push a 60gr that fast, in reality?
If it only nets 4000fps, a 60JLK at the speed is only beating a 75 @ 3600 in drop by a smidge over an inch @ 400yds.
Cal, how fast was your 22x47L launching a 60gr?
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3 Toes
El Guapo
Member # 1327
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posted January 22, 2016 05:35 AM
Right around 3800 depending on the day. Your 3600 fps 75 grain load is smoking. I know a few 22-243 owners and most are around 3400 with a 75. Those are all non-Ackley.
[ January 22, 2016, 05:38 AM: Message edited by: 3 Toes ]
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Violence may not be the best option....
But it is still an option.
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3 Toes
El Guapo
Member # 1327
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posted January 22, 2016 05:46 AM
I will say though, using the BC's off of Berger bullets the difference at 400 yards between a 75 @3600 and a 60 @4200 is 4 inches of drop on the Hornady ballistic calculator. From a hundred yard zero.
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Violence may not be the best option....
But it is still an option.
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted January 22, 2016 05:57 AM
My 22-243Middlested employs a 62 Berger @ 3810fps. At least, during development. I seldom ran it through the screens after that so it's a good enough baseline.
However, (honestly) I was disappointed in those numbers. I could have explored a number of different powders rather than the three I did try, but my attitude became: It is what it is. Velocity is certainly adequate and accuracy is very satisfactory so, I have a barrel that's a little slower than I expected. And, it's not the end of the world. Damned sure, good enough.
Some people are speed freaks, and if they aren't the fastest on their block, they keep searching, trying different propellants, different bullets, dicking with the seating depth, endless tinkering b3ecause somebody bragged about 4200 (for instance) but if it's not in the cards, <shakes head>
You have to juggle all these parameters, BC drop, accuracy, terminal effect and other stuff in descending order of importance. For me, empirically, I have already established a few criteria that are more important than others.
I have a 22-250AI that blows the doors off this Middlested with less capacity, less powder and a heavier bullet. But, the barrel is two inches longer. Sometimes the planets are in alignment. I guess?
Good hunting. El Bee
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31465 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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knockemdown
Our staff photo editing Guru, par excellence
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posted January 22, 2016 06:01 AM
Yes, sorry!
Neglected to mention that I dial my turret up to get a 250yd "working zero" on my .22-243AI. Apex of trajectory is ~160yds, and it's only like 1.7" above line of sight at that distance. That gives me a good 'hold on fur' from 0-340yds.
Anyhoo, was using 250yds as "zero" as a baseline for comparison. See how a more usable zero negates much of the perceived advantage that the lighter bullets afford.
If a .22-243AI could break 4,000fps with a 60gr, the ballistics might be a wash to 400, and the lower rpm generated might help with throat/ barrel life? That might be cause enough to try it out...
Also, a zero freebore slow twist 6SAUM would be a badazz! Trying to replicate what Dave's getting in his 6-284 with 55-60s...would be fun to try, anyway!!! Got a bunch of new "6.5 GAP 4s" brass here, and the bushings to neck them down. Maybe spec'ing a tight neck 6SAUM reamer is in order?
[ January 22, 2016, 06:04 AM: Message edited by: knockemdown ]
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted January 22, 2016 07:11 AM
Whatever, Fred. I appreciate the quest, but I'm not that militant.
The numbers I get from my 22-250Ackley are established. 65 grain bullet @ 3925fps. On a good day.
I feel that I could potentially push a 60 grain bullet at 4200, in that barrel. But why? I'm not looking to squeeze that last ounce of performance. I have a barrel vice and action wrench but scorching throats happens soon enough, as it is. I believe in moderation. which is why my standard load in that gun is ~1.5 grains under max.
I love to talk about these things, but restraint where the rubber meets the road.
Good hunting. El Bee
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31465 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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knockemdown
Our staff photo editing Guru, par excellence
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posted January 22, 2016 08:03 AM
"But why?"
That's my point.
Why would I opt to go slow twist & lighter bullets if a 75@3600 is so close in trajectory?
If your .22-250AI could rock a 60 to 4200, then a .22-243AI will do the same...but at a lower pressure. The "no free lunch" rule in effect, only way a smaller case beats a larger one is to run at a higher pressure...
In that regard, doesn't running a larger case at lower pressure to ent the same speed make decent enough sense?
Yep, love BS-ing about this stuff, too! If anything, it makes me wanna goof around & build shit for no other reason than for the heck of it!!! In the meatime, gonna try RL22 again my m .22-243AI to see if I can't get a 75 to 3700... ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
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DAA
Utah/Promoted WESTERN REGIONAL Hunt Director
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posted January 22, 2016 08:24 AM
Fred, I used to know a guy that had a .22-284 w/30" 14T. If I'm remembering right, he was getting 4K w/64's.
Just a random data point to add to the confusion ![[Smile]](smile.gif) .
I was getting 3500 with the 75 Amax in both of my 8T .22-250AI barrels, but they were long, too. Can't believe that I don't remember exactly how long, I really am starting to forget an awful lot of shit. But they were somewhere in the 28-30" range.
My current trajectory king is my .20 Dasher. Have hardly ever even shot it, really. Worked up a load and took it 'chuck hunting a couple times, been gathering dust since then. The load I ended up at was 39 BK's around 4400. The loads that barrel came with though (from the same guy that had the .22-284), were clocking almost 4600 fps! Can you say "stiff bolt lift", ha-ha! But, again, long barrel, and again, I can't remember exactly how long. At least 28" though. Blaine used it exclusively for lamping cats. He just didn't want to have to care how far the eyes on the canyon rim were.
- DAA
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"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted January 22, 2016 08:30 AM
That's close to what I was getting with a 75gr.TNT behind a load of R22 or #2700 in my 25'06Ackley. I'm not home right now and I don't remember the charge, but I'm sure it was a "fairly" moderate load pushing 3650fps. I do not shoot hot loads. I only remember killing one coyote with that load, and it was like he swallowed a hand grenade. But, I much prefer the 100 gr. Ballistic Tip in that rifle.
I used to be a lot more Gung Ho, Fred. Now, I'd rather talk about it than actually spend the money. You might mellow, too.
Like at the beginning of the thread, when you get right down to it, a plain vanilla 243 will kill a lot of coyotes.
Good hunting. El Bee
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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UTcaller
NEVADA NIGHT FIGHTER
Member # 8
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posted January 22, 2016 08:36 AM
Dave,
Yeah I think I remember Blaine saying he ran those 64 grain bullets like 4400 fps. Amazing........
Good Hunting Chad
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DAA
Utah/Promoted WESTERN REGIONAL Hunt Director
Member # 11
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posted January 22, 2016 09:12 AM
Yup. Blaine tried to give me that .22-284 a few days before he died. I wouldn't/didn't take it.
Have kind of regretted that, since. I think I'd have given it a good home and it would have made him a little bit happier to know I had it.
- DAA
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"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter
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UTcaller
NEVADA NIGHT FIGHTER
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posted January 22, 2016 09:16 AM
Yeah you should of taken it. If nothing else for the sentimental value......
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted January 22, 2016 11:09 AM
Yes, I agree. And, I remember, at the time telling you the same thing. Also, what about a 14 caliber rifle? Just for what Fred would say is shits and giggles? Have not heard much about them lately?
Good hunting. El Bee
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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knockemdown
Our staff photo editing Guru, par excellence
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posted January 22, 2016 12:54 PM
I reckon a couple extra inches of barrel + higher ASL is good for nearly 100fps with your guys .22-250AIs. Still, that's plenty badazz for that powder burn!!!
And 4400 with 64s....SHEESH Dang!!! That is some ragged edge of crazy shit right there, makes me smile just to think of it...
Got 12-18" of white stuff on the way,with 50mph winds to spread it around. Hope we get the full monty! Love it when the shit hits the fan here...LMAO!
Stay safe, Nick. Looks like you're gonna get it real good in Joisey!
[ January 22, 2016, 12:55 PM: Message edited by: knockemdown ]
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3 Toes
El Guapo
Member # 1327
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posted January 22, 2016 04:18 PM
At least you're happy to see the storm Fred! I'm about shit full of the news and weather channels spin on it. We have blizzards as bad here every winter and nobody gives a damn. Not even a blip on the news. But have one in the east and it's the end of the world as we know it.
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Violence may not be the best option....
But it is still an option.
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Dave Allen
Hi, I'm SUPER DAVE, IN CHARGE OF Q STUFF (and Goat Leader) "I'm really not trying to be a dick".
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posted January 22, 2016 07:01 PM
That's funny Cal !! I hear ya man.
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted January 22, 2016 07:23 PM
Yes, they have to hype stuff, it's in their DNA. And, not only the east coast. They always make a big deal out of mudslides and any rain that fills the gutters and makes puddles. Don't forget our fires and earthquakes, hype the hell out of that stuff. High tides, big surf, El Nino; and GLOBAL WARMING is responsible for all of it. Excuse me, I meant "climate change".
Good hunting. El Bee
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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Krustyklimber
prefers the bunny hugger pronunciation: ky o tee
Member # 72
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posted January 23, 2016 08:11 AM
Well we got 21" of snow in 15 hours, here.
They pre-salted the shit out of the roads, making driving conditions even worse (yesterday).
Then, they gave up on plowing, altogether, about 2am this morning, pretty obvious they were fighting a losing battle.
The real BIG difference between a snowstorm in Wyoming and here... 12+ million idiots, not prepared to drive in it, driving in it anyways! ...are there even 12 million people in Wyoming?
Top that off with *I think they said "4 million miles of power transmission lines at risk" **I dunno WHY they don't bury all this shit after a hurricane or some other natural disaster? *It's like they want it to fail. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
And we get our ass kicked, take Hurricane Sandy for instance, often enough and bad enough, that it's hard not to take it seriously, even if the weatherman is Chicken Little.
Keep your powder dry!
Krusty
P.S. I have many thoughts on the whole east vs west coyote hunting thing, but I'll keep them to myself and say Dave's got a pretty good grasp on how things work (or don't work) here.
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Think about how stupid the average person is, then realize that half of them are stupider than that!
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knockemdown
Our staff photo editing Guru, par excellence
Member # 3588
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posted January 23, 2016 09:59 AM
We got 15" here already and only halfway thru. 24" now expected, and it's howling from the NE.
GOV dickweed just issued a travel ban by 2:30pm. and can't say I disagree. Even with a small % of morons, the population is large enough to insure some disastrously stupid shit will happen. "SUV overconfidence" and whatnot...
All good with me! I get a kick out of the panic that sets in. Aside from the coastal areas that flood, a couple feet of snow and 50mph+ winds aint a big deal. Good fun, actually!!!
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3 Toes
El Guapo
Member # 1327
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posted January 23, 2016 04:51 PM
According to Siri, the population of Wyoming is 586,000. Which is still a few hundred thousand too many.
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Violence may not be the best option....
But it is still an option.
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Dave Allen
Hi, I'm SUPER DAVE, IN CHARGE OF Q STUFF (and Goat Leader) "I'm really not trying to be a dick".
Member # 3102
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posted January 23, 2016 07:47 PM
Interesting were up to 1.65 million now. 39th among the 50 states. 7th in least densely populated.
Translation if you take the Boise area out of the equation it's a pretty decent place.
Being an hour away from Boise now, helps a lot..
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