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Author
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Topic: Rich's misting article in PX
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted July 06, 2007 05:22 PM
Rich,
Good write up. Coupla ???'s for ya.
First, in your mixture, you use coyote, bobcat, rabbit and (according to gerry) Bigfoot pee. The few times I've seen pee being collected from varmints for trapline use, the urine from several different animals is usually combined into one common container. What are your thoughts on the fact that not only is that coyote smelling another coyote, but he may very well be smelling a dozen different coyotes at the same time? Do you think he can tell that there is more than one coyote in that mist? How much do you think that freaks him out?
And second, from reading Gerry's prequel to your article, did you wash your hands before you guys ate lunch?
Again, nice read, you "misbred, hare-lipped idiot"! ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5438 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted July 06, 2007 06:56 PM
Well, far be it for me to opine, but my guess is that mixing urine doesn't convey multiple individuals. I think it is interpreted as some stranger, like mixing red and yellow and getting orange. They accept the smell as Mr Orange, like Reservoir Dogs, ya know?
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31459 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Tim Behle
Administrator MacNeal Sector
Member # 209
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posted July 06, 2007 06:58 PM
Where do you buy rabbit pee? I keep coyote, fox and bobcat pee on hand, but I've never seen rabbit pee offered for sale
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Personally, I carry a gun because I'm too young to die and too old to take
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Posts: 3160 | From: Five Miles East of Vic, AZ | Registered: Jun 2003
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csmithers
unknown comic
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posted July 06, 2007 07:30 PM
Seeing as the diet of a coyote can change with the wind. Would an individual coyote even recognize the smell of it's own urine let alone another? Is the smell of Mr. Blondes urine always distinct and distinguishable from Mr. White's? Is there a "base" smell always present in their urine that identifies them individually?
Are more details conveyed through feces than urine due to glands? I suspect so but......
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted July 06, 2007 08:56 PM
It's obvious that they use a squirt of urine a lot more frequently than poop in territorial marking. Sometimes a dump is just a dump.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31459 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Norm
Knows what it's all about
Member # 240
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posted July 06, 2007 09:09 PM
one would have to believe that they can disquish their own markings...
as well as if theirs is on top...
if you watch domesticated dogs... they are always smelling to see who marked a spot last... and if it wasn't them... squirt....
I have to believe it is the same in the wild.... now for the dump... probably a way to make another jealous by telling them what they had for their most recent meal or snack...
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Carpe Diem
Posts: 778 | From: Phx AZ | Registered: Oct 2003
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Brad Norman
Okie Dokie
Member # 234
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posted July 06, 2007 09:10 PM
Gotta agree with you on that one Leonard! Speaking of, I'm gonna go take one now.
Posts: 298 | From: Oklahoma | Registered: Aug 2003
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6mm284
Knows what it's all about
Member # 1129
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posted July 07, 2007 06:03 AM
I have come to considere a coyote's sense of smell to be at least as acute as our sense of vision and I hunt them with that in mind..They can smell themselves just as we can recognize ourselves in a mirror.How they respond to any number of distinct odors sensed at the same time may not be very important.An unknown smell in their environment of any kind may bring up the caution level just as high as the smell of any human. Who knows????
Posts: 198 | From: N46 06 E91 11 | Registered: Feb 2007
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted July 07, 2007 08:12 AM
In reply to the above post, I have an observation.
Huber mentioned this a while ago, and I concur. It has to do with the immediacy of the threat, or the freshness, for lack of a better word.
In other words, to be specific, I do not think that a coyote is always scared to death of the human scent. I have seen coyotes around villages, where it is normal to smell humans, and yet they approach, stealing scraps in the middle of the night, snagging cats in suburban neighborhoods, etc.
Does a coyote really recognize his own odor? There has probably been a study on that issue, our tax dollars at work, of course. Well, perfume or cologne can be easily detected by a human, freshly applied. After several days, it degrades, and possibly absorbs other odors to the point where it has a rancid smell, nothing like the original. Whereas, (before) you may recognize Old Spice, three days later you know it is a fragrance, but not sure of the brand.
So, applying this to a coyote with their well developed olfactory sensors, is this a benefit or does it just complicate the I.D.? It may not be important that a coyote be able to distinguish Old Spice from Brut, but can he really tell who peed on the tree, and when they did it? Sure, a stranger may leave a distinctive lingering scent once in a while, but can they tell if it was left by a male yearling from the neighbor group? Okay, a stranger peed on his scent post, so he covers it up. Next visit, are we postulating that he still smells both odors? Or, is he just sniffing to see which is most recent? Doesn't matter much, he is going to freshen it anyway.
In any case, the idea that coyotes run the other way when they smell human is questionable. The difference is, does he associate the human smell with animal distress and realize that it is just as possible that a human is strangling the rabbit, as it may be a fox or another coyote. If it appears to be a human, he would not want to stick around, would he? An hour later, he might walk in and sniff all over the place, perhaps because his other senses have told him that the scent is not to be feared, it's the human that is to be feared, and he has determined that the human has left. Actually, often they do stick around...downwind, until the coast is clear. There may be a few scraps?
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31459 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Paul Melching
Radical Operator Forum "You won't get past the front gate"
Member # 885
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posted July 07, 2007 09:55 AM
Tim I get my rabbit urine from Murrays lures(couldnt find it anywhere else)
Qoute: posted July 06, 2007 09:10 PM
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Gotta agree with you on that one Leonard! Speaking of, I'm gonna go take one now.
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Posts: 178 | From: Oklahoma | Registered: Aug 2003
After limited resaerch I have found it better to leave one. LOL
I wonder if a canines marking is just an instinctual response regardless of who or what hit the scent post its going to apply a shot anyway. watching Mattie in Higgins video she mocks them gland marking what thought process goes into that? walking my dog around the neighborhood some posts would captivate him for a long sniffing period some just sniff and squirt but always ending in him leaving a post.
PM
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Posts: 4188 | From: The forest ! north of the dez. | Registered: Jul 2006
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csmithers
unknown comic
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posted July 07, 2007 03:05 PM
A turd may well be just a turd and probably means more to me than to them. I don't have my nose to the ground looking for urine scent posts so unless they are scraped or we have snow I wouldn't even know they were there. The frequency of urination as opposed to defecation would seem to make the urine more useful as a territorial marker. But the question still lingers. Is a dump truly just a dump?
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted July 07, 2007 05:42 PM
Well, on more than one occasion, I have kicked out a coyote that stopped and looked at me, hunched up and took a shit right there. Like shooting fish in a barrel. Sometimes, a dump is just a dump.
Actually, they do have a tendancy to do this before getting the hell out of Dodge. Other times they will carefully drop a load in a very specific spot, like on a rock. In that case, I believe it's a warning, or boundary marker. I think that's why they tend to crap in the middle of a dirt road so often; it's a natural boundary, to them.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31459 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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TOM64
Knows what it's all about
Member # 561
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posted July 07, 2007 10:08 PM
I can't believe I'm posting about dumping and pissing but...When I ran one of my bird dogs, (he was a very dominant dog), I noticed he made all the scent posts and while some he just pissed on there were others where he just had to dump on or at least try. Maybe he was using the glands back there I don't know. Anyway it was easy to run him on a new place and wager a guess on boundry lines and runways. If a coyote was ever in the area he'd show me where.
On another note, has anyone noticed a dog smell which direction tracks led? My dog here in the house will hit the hallway and track me down without fail. Even though I've walked back and forth several times, she will take a couple of steps with her nose to the carpet then follow the freshest trail. I don't think we have a clue on what all a coyotes nose tells him.
BTW Rich, I enjoyed the article too. I especialy liked the history part and had no idea "misting" or the concept had been around that long.
[ July 07, 2007, 10:09 PM: Message edited by: TOM64 ]
Posts: 2283 | From: okieland | Registered: Feb 2005
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coyote whacker
Knows what it's all about
Member # 639
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posted July 08, 2007 06:00 AM
Studies suggest there are markers in urine that coyotes can pick up on.Studies show that coyote's can distinguish adult from sub adult urine, sex and other markers from urine.
Using urine alot through the years there is good and bad, more for trap line use than misting I would expect. At the trap set or to get to investigate one wants minutes out of urine versus misting and looking for seconds to get off a shot.
Some like single collected urine from 1 coyote fed on a majority meat diet and not dry processed foods, others will break it down to seasonal needs and want male or female urine. Others like just fresh collected from the bladder urine and cut it out of all dead coyotes, problem is you don't seem to get much as they like to piss themselves alot.
I think in areas that coyotes are more accustomed to human activity and prevail from some of this activity the misting and mixing of human odor would yield good results, areas where they are abused and worked hard, I wonder if the misting would really add much or if a bark, pup whimper etc, would be enough to get off the shot, as alot of us do?
I notice the best thing for me is my dog and working coyotes with it durring pup rearing, that is my best time for the human odor conflict, as the dog get's 100% attention and focus from the coyotes. YOY coyotes in August and september are easier to work with as well when it comes to getting the whiff of man.
I may just have to try this misting and see if any benefits in this area are seen.
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This is done on my time and my dime. My views may differ from those of others!
Posts: 376 | From: USA | Registered: Apr 2005
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6mm284
Knows what it's all about
Member # 1129
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posted July 08, 2007 04:01 PM
Hunting the fruit groves and vineyards of california has showed me that coyotes are not necessarily fearful of humans scent.The migrant workers get the coyotes very accustomed to the human scent while no threat present. To try and compare the sensitivity of a humans sense of smell to that of a coyotes is probably like comparing the Hubbel telescope to human vision when star gazing.Might both be looking in the same direction but only one is seeing anything.Coyotes probably have a much keener sense of smell than they have the cognitive abilty to use.Their responses are very basic and immediate.On dogs knowing which way a trail runs, I had a freind with a trail hound that would go the wrong direction every time.He would always have to turn him then he would be fine.My wife says I am the same way.
[ July 08, 2007, 04:16 PM: Message edited by: 6mm284 ]
Posts: 198 | From: N46 06 E91 11 | Registered: Feb 2007
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted July 08, 2007 05:52 PM
quote:
Coyotes probably have a much keener sense of smell than they have the cognitive abilty to use.
They'd be damn near impossible to call if they had brains enough to use that nose to its fullest extent. In fact, my best guess is that they'd be taking as many of us as we do of them. And we'd think a tied score was a good thing!
As far as dogs running tracks, that never ceased to amaze me how they knew which way that critter was running. There's something to be said for being an ignorant animal. Maybe that's our problem. We just over think things.
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5438 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
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Randy Roede
"It's Roede, like in Yotie
Member # 1273
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posted July 09, 2007 03:50 PM
The whole human fear is very unclear to me.
The coyote has to associate something negative with our scent. There are hundred and hundeds of scents in a coyote world, just the plain human scent, why should he fear it?
Are all YOY coyotes taught by mom and dad when human scent is detected to fear it by the way mom and dad handle the encounter. Or does each and every coyote have to develope the fear of humans through their own encounter. I think it is a combination of both.
If the fear comes from a rabbit distress, getting downwind, smelling human ,and then gun shots, well I wouldn't have many coyotes with the fear of humans. Why not the same level of fear from the rabbit in distress. I am sure the coyote has smelled human with no gun shots or any other negative event, to go along with many rabbit in distress encounters with no negative events.
I think it is more an instinctive reaction to our scent, bred from generation to generation, for some reason, some coyotes more than others that scent is something they don't want any part of.
They get chased hard and maybe even beat on by deer and antelope they still go downwind of them with out bolting,eagles etc.
Or is our scent in his world so rarely in it that it causes the reaction to survive and be cautious of this scent because it is new and the coyote is not sure of the amount of danger it represents. As a survivor the coyote will for the most part error on the side of caution. Each is a little different but for the most part.
As for marking an existing territory, I see boundry issues alot, you call them to a certain point and it seems they hit a wall, unless you move to them, usually they are content with you over there and them there. Cross that imaginary line and game on! Especially true when running a dog.
But I agree with Leonard a turd is a turd alot of the time, but on other occasions it is clearly defining a place and presence of who and what the coyote is all about. Certain times of the year more than others.
Like I have stated before , putting human logic to coyote whatever leads to very interesting debates, but very little concrete,or black and white, data. We make our own conclusions on what we know and hope for the best.
We can analize a certain encounter and have it figured out and the next time something totally different happens in the similar situation. It's what makes coyote hunting special, unique and challenging. It's what seperates coyote callers, those who can adapt on the fly and realize what is happening and run with it or those who have a plan leaving the truck and never waiver from it.
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The only person dumber than the village idiot is the person who argues with him!
Posts: 669 | From: Pierre SD | Registered: Mar 2007
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Leonard
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Member # 2
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posted July 09, 2007 04:47 PM
Well, now we are back to the article. It's my opinion, that the scent of human (to a coyote) is part of the environment, and some discover it sooner than others. The problem is that of association, and why misting is effective.
First, they hear distress. They may decide to circle. When they get downwind, they smell human. This is not "kosher" and he decides to leave, promptly. A coyote isn't stupid. Can he associate danger with distress cries and a human scent? I believe he can do that, and that is why he is circling, in the first place, even if he doesn't exactly know why he is doing it?
So, maybe generations have instilled caution? We already have speculated many times that he circles because he does not want to run headlong into a stronger or more dangerous animal, including a human, if he were to use the direct approach. And, certainly, a lot of times he makes use of a direct approach, but that's another subject.
So, when you add a little Magic Mist to the stand, this coyote knows what to do with plan A or plan B, but this particular stand, he can't decide. This is your advantage, people. All you have to do is accept the message and use it.
Confession. I'm real tired of the armchair theorists that debunk the misting method without trying it. Not refering to anybody here, just talking....
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31459 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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csmithers
unknown comic
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posted July 09, 2007 05:33 PM
We do know some coyotes will and some won't stand still with a load of human wafting into their nose. Most animals do and always will fear humans and why exactly that is could be debated forever. I try to never underestimate the nose, eyes and ears of any animal.
I'll go back to the cologne analogy put forth by Leonard. Let's say that Cindy at work wears too much GD perfume. I can't stand to walk by her office because it stinks like a house of ill repute. A half an hour after she vacates her bordello/office for lunch is the only time I can walk past without getting nauseous. By that time it has drifted and dissipated, somewhat and is "tolerable". The coyote, like me will more than likely put up with Cindy's stench after an hour or so but not sit directly downwind and "taste" her Poison in full flower. But say she added the sweet odor of freshly made cinnamon donuts and some hot fresh coffee. Then I may peak my head through the door and hang for a second or two. Just enough time for her to stick a pencil through my eye. It should work in theory.
As for misting and it's true effectiveness, I'd have to take the guys' word for it that have been using it the longest. There is no reason to doubt what you say is true. I have not tried it and right this minute have no plans on trying but I may get the itch in the future to give it a go.
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Randy Roede
"It's Roede, like in Yotie
Member # 1273
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posted July 09, 2007 05:43 PM
Leonard my thoughts on misting is all you using it must be seeing some advantage from using it or you wouldn't be doing it or sure as hell not writing about it.
Your location ,terrain ,number of callers, vegation, etc. are all things that are unique. Whatever you figure out to get them dead well hats off to ya!
Is it something I have a need for? Well maybe not right now in these big open pastures, but I sure will remember it and may incorporate it in some way shape or form if need be down the road.
Like I have said before, I have carried a squirt bottle of canine call on occasion when I have had a wind that doesn't allow a good downwind shooting lane, or around some thick cover.
I do remember a morning on a stand that I had just soaked myself with bug spray before making it. I thought my coyotes were north of me and ended up south with a north wind and he hit that bug spray human scent trail way out there and reacted immediately, this was at about a half to three quarters of a mile, much farther out than normal and a real negative reaction, was it a fear of bug spray? No, but it wasn't what he wanted to be around for whatever reason.
I think strange scents, scents not smelled that often , tend to make coyotes react with fear and caution till they figure out what it is. Not always but for the most part.
Now ones that have had a near death experience and have had human scent in their noses sometime during it, totally different story.
For the most part, the majority of my coyotes have heard many songs and dances before I get to them. If the really educated or whatever ones are reacting like the ones in the study Higgins was telling me about I would never know they reacted to my calls. Coming in way downwind out of sight. I doubt it because for the most part I locate and hunt to that group and usually find what I have located. Rarely do I find coyotes and not see them once I start calling to them. It's possible thou.
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The only person dumber than the village idiot is the person who argues with him!
Posts: 669 | From: Pierre SD | Registered: Mar 2007
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TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Field Marshall, Southern Minneesota Sector
Member # 794
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posted July 09, 2007 06:49 PM
Good post Randy.
I plan on trying misting this fall at home, i'm sure it works and thats why i well try it. Hopefully i can get a coyote to come in and take a good wiff...
But also like randy said out west where i call its not really needed, but i may also try it on the east side of the state....
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted July 10, 2007 03:09 PM
But,......
on one hand, it seems to be the consensus of everyone that has a lot of experience with this canine nose that a coyote has the ability to separate smells - separating human smell from others smells, two all beef patties, special sauce, lettuce, ad nauseum, etc.
Then, in this instance, going back to my intial question about whether a coyote smells more than one coyote in a mist comprised of pee from multiple animals when collected, does it not stand to reason that the same faculties that allow a coyote to distinguish special sauce from lettuce also allow him to distinguish individual-specific odors?
Centuries of trapping later, young trappers are told that using pee on a trap set elicits a curiosity reponse from a coyote working that set, and that they'll mark on top of it to put their smell at the forefront to the next nose that comes along. I don't necessarily think a coyote can distinguish other coyotes' pee when confronted with a solution of all of them blended together, but I suspect they know theirs from anyone and everyone elses. If they can't, why does my dog smell another dog's ass? (That's my other question. And BTW, no one has commented on Rich's hand washing at lunch yet. No one want to tackle that yet?)
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5438 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
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Tim Behle
Administrator MacNeal Sector
Member # 209
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posted July 10, 2007 03:30 PM
Lance,
Your dog needs counseling, you should hire a doggie shrink for him before he flips out and bites the mailman.
Just my guess, but I think when coyote urine is mixed, it causes a WTF? response.
I may be superstitious, but I think the best coyote piss is collected from only one coyote, who is fed a pure meat diet.
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Personally, I carry a gun because I'm too young to die and too old to take
an ass kickin'.
Posts: 3160 | From: Five Miles East of Vic, AZ | Registered: Jun 2003
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Nahuatl
Knows what it's all about
Member # 708
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posted July 10, 2007 03:31 PM
We were both wearing our hunting camo, but I believe Rich took an alternate route and ordered fish. The human nose just isn't as adept at separating similar aromas.
Posts: 202 | From: Mount Gleason, Angeles NF | Registered: Sep 2005
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