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Topic: Rich's misting article in PX
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted July 10, 2007 03:56 PM
I have no data, just opinions. Fearlessly offered.
I am not even sure that a coyote recogizes his own scent? But, mixing urine from multiple animals, seems to me that he gets an image of a different animal? I don't think it is possible for him to separate the smells into different individuals. He MAY smell male and female? But, for my purpose, and I have a little experience with the subject matter, it doesn't....matter. You guys are slicing it much too thin. Meat diets? Okay, I will buy it as a valid concern around a set, but just to get a coyote to hold still downwind, long enough for a shot? Nah.
Like I have said previously, Motts clam juice does almost as well. Go figure.
Good hunting. LB
-------------------- EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All. Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31460 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Rich Higgins
unknown comic
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posted July 10, 2007 06:00 PM
Hi Lance. Welcome back. I haven't read the article yet, so I don't know how much was left intact. I understand that sometimes the articles are heavily edited and sometimes not so much. quote: What are your thoughts on the fact that not only is that coyote smelling another coyote, but he may very well be smelling a dozen different coyotes at the same time? Do you think he can tell that there is more than one coyote in that mist? "
I believe that they do indeed smell everything in the mist, at the same time, and are able to isolate each odor. Tracking dogs are able to follow individuals through heavy traffic urban areas that are covered with layer after layer of epithelia cells from every human that has passed before, which is actually the source of the scent that the dog detects. Canines are known to detect odors in layers. You have to consider that the long snout of the coyote contains more than 250 million olefactory receptor cells and they are capable of detecting odors in PARTS PER TRILLION. I readily admit that I am incapable of understanding that degree of sensitivity to scents. It's probably like trying to explain color to a blind person.
"How much do you think that freaks him out?"
That would depend entirely on the coyote's security level at that time. If it is in freak mode and on high alert, I wouldn't expect to gain much from the use of mist. If the coyote is going about business as usual when it hits the mist I would expect it to start tripping one trigger after another until that sensory overload stage kicks in.
And second, from reading Gerry's prequel to your article, did you wash your hands before you guys ate lunch?
Lunch?
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted July 10, 2007 06:41 PM
So, just to be clear.
Higgins. Let us say we are misting coyote urine, nothing else and it is from a commercial source.
Let us say there might have been twenty contributors to that gallon of urine. (conservative estimate)
So, if I understand your reply; you think the downwind coyote can sort out twenty individuals in the mist you are sending towards him?
I think he smells an individual (a strange visitor, perhaps?) coyote. I will concede that he may have a confusion about the sex. I do not believe he can smell and distinguish every contributor to the mix, by the time you use it, it's too blended, for months maybe?
If you can site some specific data, I might change my mind but your examples do not address the question directly. After all, a layer is a layer, and you have freshness and staleness. With a mist you have a blend.
Good hunting. LB
-------------------- EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All. Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31460 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Rich Higgins
unknown comic
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posted July 10, 2007 06:54 PM
Leonard, I don't believe a coyote smells an individual in the mist. I believe it smells many coyotes that it cannot identify. The fact that the urines are blended may be a contributing factor to the value of the mist, it helps to create the state of confusion that is the hoped for result of misting. You must remember that the blend also contains fox, bobcat, rabbit and some other ingredients blended with the inention of providing more info than they can decipher. Detecting the odors is only part of the equation. The most important part, I believe, is their inability to interpret all of it. Anything that contributes toward that end without alarming them is a major plus.
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TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Field Marshall, Southern Minneesota Sector
Member # 794
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posted July 10, 2007 07:09 PM
When i used to trap red-fox i used urine at most of my sets. The reason for it was to reduce fear in the fox and also to get him to pee on top of what i put down and get him to stay at the set longer. I think that if the urine is fresh a coyote can tell how many other coyotes pee was used to fill the jug. What i like to do is cut open a dead coyote or fox and extract the urine, urine sac, and parts from the rear-end and then use them in same area where i got the fox or coyote. My thinking is the other fox or coyotes willbe familier with the urine i use and thus be more eager to come in or to work the set...
-------------------- What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
Posts: 5064 | From: S.D. | Registered: Jan 2006
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Rich Higgins
unknown comic
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posted July 10, 2007 07:24 PM
quote: QUOTE] Are more details conveyed through feces than urine due to glands
[/QUOTE] quote: It's obvious that they use a squirt of urine a lot more frequently than poop in territorial marking. Sometimes a dump is just a dump.
This subject is worthy of a long thread by itself. In three separate studies, three biologists, Kleiman, Ewer, and Ralls all arrived at the same conclusion, that scent marking with urine may be only indirectly related to territorial defense, and its primary function may be to provide the resident coyote with a familiar odor to uncrease its feeling of security. There's the all important security level issue again.
The same is very true of scat deposits. Contrary to popular belief, coyotes are very social animals and often do not exclude all non-member coyotes. Scat deposits along roads and other thoroughfares are most often social calling cards, a "Kilroy was here" thing rather than boundary markers. Coyotes have a gland on each side of its anus that they control at will to deposit their personal scent to the scat so it is identifiable regardless of diet and they deposit their graffiti when they care enough that only the best will do.
Dr Camanzind found a coyote "latrine" on the NER inside an abandoned hay shed that contained more than 500 scat. One of Jaegers students found a similar "latrine" under a bridge that crossed a dry creek bed.
Joe Melton, Az. Game Commissioner and trapper told me that coyotes use scat deposits to locate food sources such as carrion, deadpiles, mesquite bean groves, melon fields, and grapes. The coyote simply follows the back trail from the interesting scat deposit to the origin, sometimes from great distances. He says that the transient coyotes honor territories that they travel through or in which the source is located by traveling a straght line and not meandering as they usually do. That is why calling in an area of high numbers of deposits is relatively unproductive.
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csmithers
unknown comic
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posted July 10, 2007 07:38 PM
Calling in an area with a high concentration of urine posts, identifiable by scraping or other means, may be very productive as they tend to be areas of high territorial intrusion. This is of course in stable populations. The posting peaks prior to and after breeding season and is more oft done by the alpha pair. I can read too! LOL! Try to poo-poo that one. I dare ya. [ July 10, 2007, 07:40 PM: Message edited by: smithers ]
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted July 10, 2007 07:43 PM
Well, that last paragraph ic consistant with the largest concentration of scat I ever witnessed in one place. Didn't call a single coyote and I called it daylight and the following night. Of course, it was also close to Sandy Valley Nevada, on the border between California and Nevada, so I can see why a Caifornia coyote would respect the boundary.
Good hunting. LB
PS, I specifically excluded other urines from my example! And, I know why we do it. Remember, I taught you, right?
-------------------- EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All. Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31460 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Nahuatl
Knows what it's all about
Member # 708
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posted July 10, 2007 08:31 PM
Rich, I took a few minutes to compare the before and after - and you survived relatively unscathed from the editing process.
Posts: 202 | From: Mount Gleason, Angeles NF | Registered: Sep 2005
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Rich Higgins
unknown comic
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posted July 10, 2007 09:02 PM
Chris, why would I want to poo-poo your post? I agree that urine posts located near scrapes, (kick scratching)are usually territorial markings( that does not contradict Ralls, Ewers or Kliemans conclusions)and can be productive. I was discussing large accumulations of scat deposits. Congratulations for being able to read. Comprehension is next.
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Rich Higgins
unknown comic
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posted July 10, 2007 09:09 PM
quote: PS, I specifically excluded other urines from my example! And, I know why we do it. Remember, I taught you, right?
You did teach me and I am eternally grateful. However, excluding the other scents changes the apples to oranges and is irrelevant, I humblely opine. Gary, thank you. No one has commented on that marvelous photo that you took. Was it included in the article? What size? That was a major acheivement and you nailed it on a very, very short deadline.
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varmit hunter
Knows what it's all about
Member # 37
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posted July 10, 2007 09:20 PM
I just wont to know why you ae picking on color blind folks again?.
-------------------- Make them pay for the wind.
Posts: 932 | From: Orange,TX | Registered: Jan 2003
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Nahuatl
Knows what it's all about
Member # 708
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posted July 10, 2007 09:22 PM
Rich, you're very welcome. Hunting with you is a hoot. I'd trade my Minaska for a Higgins anytime.
They published both the photos - and included the one where the coyote was barely visible in the distance. I am still considering my camera upgrade options. I wasn't totally happy with the size or the crop of the photo they used in PX, but it wasn't up to me. My disappointment is somehow mitigated by the fact that I ended up with a full page of hero shots just inside the cover as well.
I believe now that it's published we can post this without repurcussion???. Showing the bewildered coyote standing stupidified by magic mist within spitting distance and doing it in the absolutely perfect position long enough for me to get it recorded for posterity. Photography is much more difficult than slinging buckshot. We were both very exposed when this was taken. We each had a little bush for shade. [ July 10, 2007, 09:42 PM: Message edited by: Nahuatl ]
Posts: 202 | From: Mount Gleason, Angeles NF | Registered: Sep 2005
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted July 10, 2007 09:38 PM
Yeah, great picture. What I need to see is a before photo showing the direction of the wind. Then, it is easy to prove the point that the coyote has circled downwind and is holding there because of the mist. I mean for those Doubting Thomas' among us. Some people don't believe it's ossible to hold a coyote, unless he is maybe an "urban" coyote, which are "easy" to call. Right?
Good hunting. LB
-------------------- EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All. Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31460 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Rich Higgins
unknown comic
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posted July 11, 2007 07:18 AM
Leonard, look closely at my right hand in the photo. You can barely make out the cloud of mist and it IS moving toward the coyote.
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JoeF
resides "back east"
Member # 228
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posted July 11, 2007 10:22 AM
Gary,
You ought to be sure and have those guys give you proper credit for your photos. I understand Minaska not doing it in their ad, but think it would certainly be appropriate in the magazine article. Unless you want to remain below the radar, so to speak.
Posts: 646 | From: Midwest | Registered: Aug 2003
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csmithers
unknown comic
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posted July 11, 2007 10:44 AM
"I was discussing large accumulations of scat deposits. Congratulations for being able to read. Comprehension is next."
I read slooooowly so I can taste every word.
Comprehension is easy. Putting it to use under differing and unusual conditions in the field is another story.
The poo-poo part was in regards to the mountains of scat you referred to. It was my sorry attempt at humor.
I read the article last night. I was a bit disappointed in R. Lerameyer in the LTR that he made misting out to be some wham bang breakthrough that has happened in the last 6 months. I was happy to see that you set the record straight in the article and gave credit where credit was due. As if we should expect anything less.
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Rich Higgins
unknown comic
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posted July 11, 2007 12:26 PM
Chris, I got it. My attempt at humor was just as lame. Leonard, your third post on the first page is too long to copy here, so let me say that I believe you nailed it dead on. Coyotes don't fear the scent itself, they may fear the human that the "hot" scent tells them is near. I stated in the article and on the video that as the mist settles on the surrounding landscape that the "hot" scent of all the contributors to the mist emanates from every leaf, twig, and rock in the immediate vicinity and that is a major contributor to the overload.
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Rich Higgins
unknown comic
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posted July 11, 2007 06:11 PM
coyotewhacker, quote: I may just have to try this misting and see if any benefits in this area are seen.
I see no benefit in misting in open areas where I know where the coyotes are and I can set up so that they can not get my wind without exposing themselves. I don't bother in those areas. In close thick cover where they can pop up close and from any direction I believe it is essential, especially if I need to keep them in the area either for the camera or to get them to mill around long enough to expose themselves for a shot.
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Paul Melching
Radical Operator Forum "You won't get past the front gate"
Member # 885
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posted July 12, 2007 06:27 PM
Im really pissed I'm still waiting for PX to arrive,everyday same ol s--t honey did my magazine come today. No dear you can go pout now,and while your in you room can you stay there til sept. PM dudu
-------------------- Those who value security over liberty soon will have neither !
Posts: 4188 | From: The forest ! north of the dez. | Registered: Jul 2006
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canine
Knows what it's all about
Member # 687
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posted July 12, 2007 08:46 PM
Finally got time to read it..
Very good article Rich, nice shot to Gary!
Randy, You are brave, or just like skunk smell That canine call is some powerful chit Works pretty darn good at a dirthole set though. What do you cut it with to get it to spray?
JD
-------------------- Hunting The East "back to Basic's" Part 1
Posts: 162 | From: ohio | Registered: Jul 2005
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Randy Roede
"It's Roede, like in Yotie
Member # 1273
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posted July 22, 2007 12:28 PM
JD i am sorry didn't see the ? till now. No I wasn't misting canine call, just using it out of a flip top bottle, but I do enjoy the smell of skunk, fox urine, and a fine bottle of beer!!!
-------------------- The only person dumber than the village idiot is the person who argues with him!
Posts: 669 | From: Pierre SD | Registered: Mar 2007
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Tim Behle
Administrator MacNeal Sector
Member # 209
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posted July 22, 2007 01:22 PM
Randy,
Would that be Carmen's Canine call that you were using?
I went out and set up a trail camera just before Lunch using that lure. The Wife just came in and jumped my case claiming that the kitchen chair now "Stinks to high Heaven" I can't smell anything.
-------------------- Personally, I carry a gun because I'm too young to die and too old to take an ass kickin'.
Posts: 3160 | From: Five Miles East of Vic, AZ | Registered: Jun 2003
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Kokopelli
SENIOR DISCOUNT & Dispenser of Sage Advice
Member # 633
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posted July 22, 2007 01:31 PM
A formula with the urine types and percentages would be handy. Noticed that it wasn't in the article. So.... Are the amounts critical or is it like a stew; a little of this, some of this, I don't know what this is but I'll add it too.
-------------------- And lo, the Light of the Trump shown upon the Darkness and the Darkness could not comprehend it.
Posts: 7579 | From: Under a wandering star | Registered: Apr 2005
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Randy Roede
"It's Roede, like in Yotie
Member # 1273
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posted July 22, 2007 01:32 PM
Tim, why yes that's it!! and my wife seconds your wife's disapproval of the lovely smell that seems to stay with a guy.
I can get rid of anyone not wanted in my garage by just opening the refrigerator door!!! That's where I store all my lure etc.
That canine call is one great call lure!!!
-------------------- The only person dumber than the village idiot is the person who argues with him!
Posts: 669 | From: Pierre SD | Registered: Mar 2007
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