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Author
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Topic: Question about bolt 'click'...
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knockemdown
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posted October 16, 2015 11:13 AM
Figured this might make for an informative thread, so wanted to ask here about a specific 'issue' I've run into. I think I know what's happening, just wanted to confirm with you guys & see what remedies you might advise for it?
Rifle is a Remington Seven, chambered in .17Predator.
Brass is necked down & turned Lapua .223Rem.
This batch is now 5x fired.
Brass has not been annealed (yet)
All resizing has been via a bushing neck sizer (never FL sized)
After firing, the bolt lift is not especially heavy, but at the top of the throw, there is a noticeable stop. To get the action open, it requires some extra effort, resulting in a'click' sound upon opening of the bolt & ejection of a fired case...
Figure my brass has gotten work hardened and the body is not springing back to size anymore?
The fact that I've only neck sized the brass thru its life is likely what's contributed to case web growth, and the thicker brass is dragging on the chamber wall...
Am I on track?
Off base?
Seeing as how the .17Predator is .223 based, will a small base/body die for .223Rem get these cases sized back?
Is this batch of brass TOAST?
I really don't want to ignore the 'click' issue. Finally have this bitch feeding rounds smoothly from a detachable magazine, and don't wanna hafta deal with shitty extraction...
Help is welcomed & appreciated!
[ October 16, 2015, 11:26 AM: Message edited by: knockemdown ]
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Leonard
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posted October 16, 2015 02:53 PM
First of all, just to clarify; you are talking about extracting and ejecting a fired case, right? Doesn't happen on a loaded round that is removed without the shot taken?
Just a wild ass guess, obstruction within the bolt head, underneath, where the caming/cocking takes place? And, in which case, it wouldn't matter if it had been fired or not?
Good hunting. El Bee
[ October 16, 2015, 02:54 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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Prune Picker
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posted October 16, 2015 04:21 PM
Fred, does it have the stock or Sako type extractor? If it's the factory sheet metal type , I would check it for ( lack of a better word) movement , since rem stopped (?) pinning them. If all looks well there check cocking piece/ bolt for a burr
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mike
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Leonard
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posted October 16, 2015 05:09 PM
Yeah, that's what I meant.
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
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Leonard
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posted October 17, 2015 08:49 AM
But, somebody sent me a note saying the problem is in the firing pin assembly?
Good hunting. El Bee
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92soggy
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posted October 17, 2015 02:52 PM
Here is some interesting reading on bolt click.
Sounds like it needs FL resized.
(http://benchrest.com/showthread.php?86275-Bolt-Click-%28Again%29/page2)
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DAA
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posted October 18, 2015 07:14 AM
Fred, you are on the right track.
Basically, if new, or cases with fewer firings, from the same lot, don't exhibit this behavior, you KNOW it's the brass and FL sizing is the right track.
Might or might not cure it, depending. But if it's only after X number of firings it becomes noticeable. It's the brass.
Simple.
But...
This is common as dirt with "blue printed" 700's. And is more noticeable and extremely common with AI's in accurized 700's. I have one .22-250AI on a 700, in particular, that this is a "feature" even with once fired, newly fireformed brass.
The reason is simple too. A stock 700 only has, I think, about .007 or primary extraction (PE) as measured by clearance at the cam surface on the bolt handle. Don't hold me to that .007 though - I've slept thousands of times since I last paid attention.
Anyway... Removing material from the lugs and abutments to square them up directly reduces PE. Simply put, the case doesn't get pulled back as far on bolt lift as it did prior to removing the material from the lug mating surfaces.
The reason this is especially prominent in AI's, is the reduced body taper. AI's, all else being equal, would need to be pulled back further, to achieve the same amount of disengagement from the chamber walls as a case with more body taper.
So, you get a little too aggressive in squaring up the lugs, and it's just common as dirt to see this in AI's.
The .17P is "improved", but when Dan C. designed it, he made two design choices specifically to improve feeding and extraction vs. a traditional AI design. He kept a more moderate 35* shoulder and did not increase the shoulder diameter as far, keeping a bit more body taper than AI's have.
He said, at the time, before his rifle was finished, that he "hoped" these features would improve feeding and extraction. On my rifle, I'd say they do help, but it's still an improved design and exhibits some improved design feeding and extraction characteristics, albeit reduced, by comparison, in my opinion.
BTW... That .22-250AI and my .17 Mach IV were both built by a very big name accuracy 'smith. He caused me problems on the M4 by taking too much off the bolt face in squaring it up and I had nothing but problems with the factor style extractors because of it. Eventually just had Greg T. put a Sako on it. Very good example of a highly respected benchrest 'smith that knows accuracy inside and out but doesn't understand hunting/field functionality worth a piss. Also a situation that is common as dirt.
- DAA
[ October 18, 2015, 07:16 AM: Message edited by: DAA ]
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"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
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Leonard
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posted October 18, 2015 09:13 AM
I agree with Dave.
One thing about 40 degree shoulders and extraction. I have six different Ackleys, and two of them are on a Mauser and a Ruger and they make short work of extraction, more than the Remingtons, regardless of how the brass is worked on multiple firings. Not an issue.
One thing I am having a little trouble with is the "taking too much off the bolt face" and "lug mating surfaces". We know that lack of body taper, and high pressures, since everybody likes to run an Ackley hot. That contributes, no matter condition of the brass.
All in all, this phenomena may well be common as dirt, but since my orientation is field performance, and my gunsmith knows this; it's not a very big deal. I have steered away from Model 7's after being intrigued initially. I don't have solid reasons, just word on the street, here and there.
Good hunting. El Bee
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
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Prune Picker
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posted October 18, 2015 11:37 AM
Good read, but the unmentioned common denominator of the issues is extreme high pressure ( extraction of stuck cases ) . Try backing off a half a grain or more of powder & use new brass & see if the problem goes away because your on the ragged edge of a blow up.
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mike
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knockemdown
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posted October 19, 2015 04:30 AM
Thanks for all the replies, gents!
To add some more intel:
Bolt camming surfaces and firing pin are OK.
This 'click' issue only seems to be isolated to this batch of 5x brass. Prior to firing, a loaded round extracts fine, no 'click' or hanging up of the bolt. Its only been after firing this batch that I've noticed the 'click' at the top of the bolt throw...
Primary extraction seems to be adequate. The bolt on this rifle has been sleeved and timed to the action. Haven't measured with a feeler gauge, but visual inspection looks OK to me?
The load I'm runnin' isn't especially hot, not losing cases to primer pockets, or anything.
Comes back around to a potentially being brass sizing issue. To that end, I'd like to FL size some of this brass to see if that doesn't help?
Dave, I'm presently using a Mach IV neck sizer with .193" bushing. Do I need a custom die to full length size a .17P? Will a Mach IV FL die squeeze down too much?
Have already inquired with Whidden, but they do not make custom dies for .172" caliber...
Thanks again for the help, all!
[ October 19, 2015, 04:32 AM: Message edited by: knockemdown ]
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Leonard
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posted October 19, 2015 05:43 AM
In common practice, I personally use a full length sizing die on several Ackley's, and then use a Wilson chamber type seating die. Works great.
Some rifles, I use a Wilson hand neck sizing die and appropriate bushing, but still retain the option of full length resizing, or partial full length sizing. Just kinda depends on what's called for.
Good hunting. El Bee
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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DAA
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posted October 19, 2015 06:47 AM
Fred, the M4 die isn't long enough to do much good on the FL sizing.
I have a custom CH4D .17P FL die, that I haven't used yet. Be more than happy to send it to you to try and see what you think.
- DAA
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"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
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DAA
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posted October 19, 2015 09:11 AM
Or, just thought of this, might be easier on us both if you sent me a few cases, I could size them at hard cam-over and send them back.
At least you'd know if the die is going to work well. And if it does, CH4D should have the drawing already.
- DAA
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"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter
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knockemdown
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posted October 19, 2015 10:08 AM
GREAT idea!
I'll drop a small batch out to ya....
Thanks!
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knockemdown
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posted December 29, 2015 04:44 AM
Dave, wanted to follow up.
I was going to bring a few extra brass to the Campout. But, anyhoo...
Wound up contacting Dave @ CH4D and plan on having a FL die made for myself. He remembered making 4 sets of .17Predator dies about 10yrs ago, for Mr. Clements & yourself I presume?!?
I specified a slightly larger neck for my .199" chamber as the only difference, this time around. Waiting to hear back on lead time...
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DAA
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posted December 29, 2015 07:08 AM
Sounds like it oughta work out good Fred.
And yeah, Dan C. ordered up those FL dies, he gifted me the one I have.
- DAA
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"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter
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knockemdown
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posted May 05, 2016 03:52 PM
As a follow up...
Received my custom .17Predator FL die from CH4D. Set the die for brass to close easy in the chamber and instantly noticed improved extraction! Properly sized brass has eliminated the stick bolt lift, no' mo' "click" at the top of the bolt throw. Also, The neck is honed to leave a .195" neck, for my .199" chamber, and it's spot on.
Long wait, but I'm a happy camper!
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DAA
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posted May 06, 2016 02:34 AM
Cool! ![[Cool]](cool.gif)
- DAA
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"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
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Brent Parker
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posted May 06, 2016 05:14 AM
DAA,
Couldn't you see if the bolt timing could be improved to help with the extraction of the M4 case? I know a lot of smiths don't want to do it but any good smith could check and adjust it for you if needed.
Brent
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DAA
Utah/Promoted WESTERN REGIONAL Hunt Director
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posted May 06, 2016 11:14 AM
Brent, the problem with that Mach IV, was related to the bolt face being squared and creating wiggle room for the factory extractor (non riveted). It had enough room to allow slipping off the rim occasionally. But worse, also allowed it to rotate some. The combination of the two, and after awhile the extractor would just pop off the rim every time and stop working. I replaced it three times before I got tired of it and had the Sako extractor installed.
- DAA
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"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
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Leonard
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posted May 06, 2016 12:13 PM
I have owned a few Remington's and although I have heard endlessly about the extractor and ejector, I have never had a problem.
I did have a Sako extractor installed on my 223AI, but to tell the truth, I don't know if it was worth the $125?
Because of the way I wrap my left hand around and under as I extract the bolt, I have snagged my fingers on that extractor a couple times. Which I don't like and it causes me to be a bit snake bit.
Of course the reason is to snag the empty before it ejects and put it in my pocket. I do not like my brass hitting the dirt, or even worse, the concrete.
Anyway, the impression I get is that Sako extractors are overrated?
Good hunting. El Bee
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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knockemdown
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posted May 09, 2016 03:35 AM
I'm thinking about having a Mini M-16 extractor installed in my Model Seven 6x45AI. Have tried three different Rem extractors in the PT&G bolt, and all have been rather anemic...
Video linky to Mini M-16 install
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