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Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on March 11, 2015, 05:48 AM:
The other thread got me thinking...
Gents dissing the .223, while stating how the .22-250 is a much better killer. Not disagreeing, but can't help but ponder about certain cartridges having a "sweet spot" set of ranges for where they really shine?
Consider this:
.224" 55Vmax from a .223 @ 3100fps MV.
At 300yds, velocity drops to ~2050fps.
Same bullet from a .22-250 @ 3650 MV.
At ~130yds, that 55Vmax has bled off 550fps and is now equal to the MV of a .223 (~3100)
At 300yds, velocity of a 55Vmax from the .22-250 is ~2500fps.
Following along with these #s, a 55Vmax from a .223 drops to ~2500fps @ about 170yds.
(proof that the 130yd disadvantage is holding true)
That said, shouldn't the .22-250 kill the same @ 300yds as a .223 does @ 170yds?
Same bullet, same velocity should perform identically, no?
From what it looks like, opting for the .22-250 over a .223 appears to afford a "+130yd" advantage over the .223 when using a 55gr bullet. In effect, the "sweet spot" for that particular bullet killing reliably is increased by that distance.
Just some food for thought...
[ March 11, 2015, 06:02 AM: Message edited by: knockemdown ]
Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on March 11, 2015, 05:52 AM:
And, since Leonard was gonna ask:
Along the same line of #s...
55Vmax @ 4050 from a .22-250AI
At 210yds, velocity drops to ~3100fps
So, effectively, a .22-250AI affords a "+210yd" advantage over the .223
And a "+70yd" advantage over the vanilla .22-250
Granted, these aren't hard & fast data points. Just trying to quantify what gents are seeing in the field regarding terminal performance...
[ March 11, 2015, 05:54 AM: Message edited by: knockemdown ]
Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on March 11, 2015, 06:12 AM:
I think that's all valid as far as it goes Fred. But, as I know you know, you have to add in a handful of additional variables that can really make things unclear. Like, twist, throat condition/bore quality and pressure. All of which have an effect on jacket integrity and terminal performance. And all of which can vary significantly between two rifles of the same chambering.
And of course, higher velocity isn't always an advantage, in killing coyote, either. There can be too much of a good thing, for a given bullet.
But, I accept your premise. I like to go fast.
- DAA
Posted by Brent Parker (Member # 4354) on March 11, 2015, 06:51 AM:
What about barrel twist? Do you feel like a 12 twist barrel kills the same as an 8 or 7 twist?
I ran a 12.5" .223 this season with a 7 twist barrel with 55 NBT at 2900. Shot coyotes from 35 yards to 265. All angles coming, going, quartering. Couple ran about 50 yards, most just fell down dead. I have noticed with a 7 twist they bleed considerable worse than with other rifles I have used just short of a 6 mm. How about the guys running the hot 22's anyone running a 7 or 8 twist? See different results?
Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on March 11, 2015, 06:51 AM:
True dat, Dave!
Surely not much more than an arbitrary comparison, using only baseline controls of same bullet @ same impact speed.
Along with what you mentioned, shot placement will always throw a wrench in the gears! Heck, I shot a coyote in OK last month with the .22-243AI @ 30yds. Shot behind the shoulder (my default setting for broadside) and that sucker did the macarena twirl into the dirt & died with its rear foot in its jaws. Can say with fair authority that the lack of instant bangfloppability wasn't due to a lack of horsepower. That 75Amax @ 3600 just sizzled right on thru, maybe quarter sized exit...
Shot one the next stand @ 175, quartering to on the point of the shoulder. Sounded like a kid getting pegged between the shoulder blades with a rubber dodgeball, and knocked that coyote ass over tea kettle. the spray of bone & gut shrapnel across that sprouting wheatfield was quite dramatic. Thoroughly enjoyable to see thru the scope, I might add ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
Anyhoo, much "better" terminal performance, despite increased distance & lower impact velocity, simply due to shot placement...
EDIT: Brent, this .22-243AI is a 1:8" twist
[ March 11, 2015, 06:55 AM: Message edited by: knockemdown ]
Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on March 11, 2015, 06:54 AM:
I won't sit here and try to explain why I think a .223 is a piece of shit for called Coyotes because in all honesty I have absolutely no idea. Just saw runners time after time. Then I hear other guys like Leonard say the same thing. And like I said some of these shows just make me cringe every time they take a shot. And my favorite line is " He's dead he just doesn't know it yet". But whether I use my 17 Tactical or my 22-250 AI when I hit them they are usually dead and they know it. Lol And with both of the cartridges I mentioned shot placement is the same.
Good Hunting Chad
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 11, 2015, 07:23 AM:
I certainly don't mind the conversation. But, this is old news.
Kinda Zen? Everything's relative, what's a couple hundred feet per second in this cosmic universe?
In other words, it's a waste of ink to talk about the shed velocity of a 22-250 at terminal distance of (say) 250 yards when it is really only equal to a 100 yard 223. Okay, I'm playing with numbers, too.
You need to compare 200 yards versus 200 yards, where I come from. Even then, the velocity of a particular bullet....it's just apples and oranges.
There is no universe where the 223 performance is equal to a 22-250, at any given distance. We shouldn't handicap these things by saying a 22-250 is really just a 223 when it gets way out yonder.
But, appreciate the posit, Fred. (in a food for thought, context)
Good hunting. El Bee
Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on March 11, 2015, 08:31 AM:
quote:
There is no universe where the 223 performance is equal to a 22-250, at any given distance. We shouldn't handicap these things by saying a 22-250 is really just a 223 when it gets way out yonder.
Agree, to an extent.
But, one could maybe compare with similar baseline criteria to draw that type of conclusion...
From a 1:10 twist .223, 55 Vmax @ 3100
Bullet RPM = ~223,000
From a 1:12 twist .22-250, 55 Vmax @ 3650
Bullet RPM = ~219,000
Throat wear & bullet jacket integrity aside, when that 55gr Vmax hits a coyote at the same impact speed, how does it matter which cartridge launched it?
To that end, a .22-250 would indeed "degrade" to a .223's terminal performance with increased distance. And that distance would appear to be about + 130yds, give or take, given general data points.
Not arguing, but if the same bullet, spun at nearly the same RPM, hits a coyote at the same impact velocity, then how does the cartridge itself factor into the equation?
Posted by Lone Howl (Member # 29) on March 11, 2015, 10:13 AM:
I didnt bother to read the whole thread, I just know I hate .223 for coyote hunting.
Mark
Posted by Fur_n_Dirt (Member # 4467) on March 11, 2015, 10:50 AM:
I believe the first order effect is bullet type with so-so shot placement IMHO.
One day, I shot a "pup" with a 223 vmax from 15 yards. What happened? The fucking shoulder splattered and he ran away with three legs. I was shocked. Good thing my combo had a dead coyote round for him.
It would be enlighting to know how much "energy" transfer goes in for 223 versus 22-250 (as a function of yardage). I think a 10% change is not a big deal, but when its 20 and higher , I think that's significant.. Energy transfer into animal is also dependent on bullet type.
As you guys know, I have zero experience with 22-250 ackley , but that's about to change..
[ March 11, 2015, 10:52 AM: Message edited by: Fur_n_Dirt ]
Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on March 11, 2015, 12:34 PM:
I know a 223 won't kill a coyote, especially from a short barreled 1/7 twist machine gun.
It's a good thing they don't know it.
I don't know guys, I've seen em spin with the 223, 22-250AI and even a 243AI but I've also seen em drop dead on the spot with the 223. All of my 223's are 1/7 twist and I shoot 55 NBT's or 77 SMK's. My 223AI is a 1/9 but I haven't shot it yet.
I even threatened to sell my 204 cause I lost 2 coyotes back to back with the 35 gr Berger but deep down I know it ain't the cartridges fault.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 11, 2015, 01:26 PM:
Tom, Tom, Tom, spurious argument. We stipulate that a 223 in capable hands can kill a coyote, at moderate ranges, if the coyote cooperates. I have been told that a 22 rimfire has killed a few coyotes.
But, even we experts lose a few, now and then. Right Lance? So, why not tilt the odds in our favor and use a cartridge that is a little more up to the task at hand?
You have a 22-250Ackley and a 243Ackley and are fucking around with an AR in 223 and claiming (what?) that it's just the ticket, suitable, marginal, overkill?
Well, as LBJ used to say: "Continya On".
Good hunting. El Bee
[ March 11, 2015, 01:28 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by Fur_n_Dirt (Member # 4467) on March 11, 2015, 02:18 PM:
Those look like whimpy coyotes, even a 22LR would have taken'em.. ;-)
[ March 11, 2015, 02:19 PM: Message edited by: Fur_n_Dirt ]
Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on March 11, 2015, 03:00 PM:
We haven't had a good 12 page discussion in a while now...
I won't mention the 2-300 that my 222 fooled into playing dead. But to be fair that was years ago before the Internet.
Posted by DanS (Member # 316) on March 11, 2015, 03:25 PM:
I won't pretend to know the needs of an ADC or pro tournament hunter, I don't do that. I can only talk about what works in my little world on mostly 20-30lb canines. I often find my 22-250AI, 243, 6XC, 22XC or whatever flavor I am hunting with this week, too freaking loud. So I sometimes prefer my little 204 Ruger, a 17 centerfire, or 223AI because of a noise factor.
I believe 223's are perfectly capable of killing coyotes at reasonable distances. There are obviously better cartridges for killing coyotes. If you want them dead quicker or if you can't always wait for the better angle to shoot the critter. Saving fur not being part of the equation.
Fred, I am surprised that the 75 amax did what it did at that velocity and close distance. Not what I would have guessed. I just setup a little 1-8twist 223AI setup about the same specs and the Rem 700 LVSF, It loves those 75gr AMAX bullets and is a lot of fun so far. I did get to poke holes in paper and bang some steel out to only 300 yards last weekend.
Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on March 12, 2015, 03:53 AM:
Dan, I've been finding that the Amax is something of a tuff little bullet. From the bunch of deer I've kilt with the 162Amax, several were passthrus. And the ones I've recovered retained quite a bit of weight, and had a shape reminiscent of a controlled expansion bullet. Have become a big fan of them for killin' shit. And have always read that the 75Amax/223AI combo is a giant killer, of sorts. Hope it works well for ya!!!
To the topic at hand, for shits & giggles, I compared a 223AI to a .22-243AI with a 75Amax using 2850 & 3600fps MV respectively. Using the same line of arbitrary logic from prior posts, the .22-243AI allows for a +300yd advantage over the .223AI. Doing so at nearly twice the powder consumption, so the lunch ain't free...
As an aside, I'm having built a 6-223AI, aka 6x45AI, aka 6TCU. Had a couple 6x45s on ARs and that little case was alot of fun. Kinda miss not having one around, so gonna swap a barrel out and make a handy little plinker out of one...
And to tie that tidbit back to the .223, I found that the 6x45 anchored the fuck outta the few coyotes I shot with it. Maybe the increased frontal mass of a 6mm bullet just hit harder? I remember killing coyotes with my old Bushy Varminter (1:9 .223) with 65Gamekings, and don't think I ever poleaxed one of 'em? But the 6x45 would groundcheck 'em right quick?
My sample size is negligible at best, just going on what little I remember. One thing I do like the .223 for is necking up/down to build a wildcat off of!!!
[ March 12, 2015, 03:59 AM: Message edited by: knockemdown ]
Posted by DanS (Member # 316) on March 12, 2015, 02:23 PM:
Fred, I have a 6mm Cheapshot. 6x47 (not Lapua, the one based off the 222mag) and it was chambered .085" short, so I could use 223 brass. It has a longer neck than the 6x45 and the neck is .062 so I have to turn. I use Wilson dies. It has hammered the coyotes at short range I have used it on. Brent has probably killed more with it than I have, and he seems to like it. It is very accurate, fun, and well cheap to shoot.
Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on March 13, 2015, 04:13 AM:
Sounds cool, Dan!
Fun, accurate & cheap to shoot, that's the niche for this one. Are yours short barreled? Gonna go 22" on mine & call it good...
Posted by Brent Parker (Member # 4354) on March 13, 2015, 05:27 AM:
Fred,
I have used mainly the 58 v max and the 60 HP Sierra bullet out of Dans rifle. Didn't get any exits with the 58 v max, all broadside shots with the 60's exited. Around a quarter to 50 cent pc. hole. Hammered our little coyotes well. Did notice a lot more bruising with it. Shot a few 4 corners area coyotes with it and 58's all DRT.
I keep threatening to borrow Dans rifle cut it to 16.5 inches and thread it... HAHA
Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on March 13, 2015, 07:59 AM:
Thanks for the info, Brent!
I was shooting the 60HP in my shorty as well, and had identical results. The b.c. on it sux azz, but that don't matter for shit inside of 200yds.
I remember shooting a red fox with one @ 15yds, broadside. Was cringing to see what bit & pieces were left of that pretty red, but to my satisfaction, that 60HP only left a dime sized exit.
Loaded 70gr Blitzkings for p-dogs, and they made for good carnage. The friend I sold one 6x45 to used that same load to fill a doe tag last year. Neck shot it, and it was effective but not pretty.
And I got the 55B-tips shootin' well too, but never kilt anything with 'em.
Such a fun little cartridge. This AI version is gonna wind up being my niece' rifle, instead of a .22-243Win. Don't need to have two firebreathers in .224 caliber...
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 13, 2015, 08:12 AM:
I kind of got away from them but at one time, I loaded the 60gr. Sierra HP almost exclusively in my 6mmRem. The reason was that it was by far the most accurate bullet I had found and made me reevaluate that rifle. Eventually, I found a few others, but no doubt the gun is fussy. It happens.
Good hunting. El Bee
Posted by Frank (Member # 6) on May 09, 2016, 10:54 AM:
Catching up on some of the threads here and this one cracked me up "UTcaller - I won't sit here and try to explain why I think a .223 is a piece of shit for called Coyotes because in all honesty I have absolutely no idea".
I've hunted with allot of newbies who started off using .223 and it was the same ol story - runners. But then ya gotta keep in mind that hunting at night often means longer ranges and that could explain allot.
So if you're using a 24" rifle that makes decent velocity in the .223 and bullets are the same then what you end up with is a difference in effective range between the 250 and the .223. But when your talking an AR-15 (at least today's copycats of the M4) you get a 14.5" barrel with a fast twist.....maybe a 16" barrel if your lucky. Then you might get some bonehead using a 62Gr military bullet and you got a good fur gun that'll give you a nice hole in and a nice hole out. Unless you hit em right your gonna be lookin for em though. Now if you got an old "legacy" AR-15 with the 1:14 or 1:12 barrel and you use a 55Gr spitzer then you got a decent hunting rig.......just wont have the reach of a 250.
I won't sit here and try to explain why I think a .223 is a piece of shit for called Coyotes because in all honesty I have absolutely no idea. Hahahah, I needed a good belly laugh!
[ May 09, 2016, 11:04 AM: Message edited by: Frank ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 10, 2016, 07:10 AM:
We will never convince these people, (you know who you are) that a 223 is not suitable for "our" purpose. I want them dead, not sorta dead, not 100 yard dead, but bang/flop deader than a door nail dead.
When you brush your teeth, do you pick a brush that has half the bristles removed? Why not jump in with both feet? A 223 is a lot like kissing your sister. I imagine, never done it, but french kissing your mom, maybe that illustrates the point?
I just feel sorry for those dull chaps that hunt coyotes with a 223. The whole world is at your door step, yet you pick such a piece of shit cartridge, with a 7 twist. Just ask yourself, what would DAA do? That other gearhead, Fred. What would he do?
Those guys would leave the 223 stacked behind the kitchen door. That's what Bernie Sanders would use. What would Trump use?
Now go forth and sin no more!
Good hunting. El Bee
[ May 10, 2016, 07:11 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on May 10, 2016, 07:38 AM:
Ah, what the Hell................
And then there's the fur damage factor.
True, I would rather sew than track but there are limits.
Posted by Az-Hunter (Member # 17) on May 10, 2016, 08:28 AM:
Ive killed hundreds of coyotes, many, many bobcats, lots of fox, a dozen deer, several javelina, and a couple antelope with a .223. The discussion of a .223 being suitable for a coyote seems absurd to me?
Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on May 10, 2016, 10:25 AM:
I definitely don't have the experience with a .223 that Vic has that's for sure. Gave up on it a very long time ago. Guess I just didn't have the patience. Way to many runners for me. And to damn slowwwwww.....lol
Good Hunting Chad
Posted by Az-Hunter (Member # 17) on May 10, 2016, 10:52 AM:
Addendum to my post; for many, many years, a .223 was all I had, a wonderfully accurate Ruger #3 carbine, wish I still had it. When my kids got bigger and my wife began working, money was not so tight and that's when I began my gun trading and caliber experimenting.
The last 20 years, all my predator hunting calibers have been sub .223 calibers. Ive had a couple .19 calibers and half a dozen .17s and .22 hornets, the .223 is just to much gun for the way I hunt, to loud, and messy blow ups. I haven't used a .223 for anything in many years now.
Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on May 10, 2016, 02:58 PM:
I will say though the .223 does have it's uses. They make a great donor for making .17,.19, and .20 Caliber wildcats.
Good Hunting Chad
edit: And I did kind of like my .223AI when I had it......
[ May 10, 2016, 03:00 PM: Message edited by: UTcaller ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 10, 2016, 04:59 PM:
See, they can't be convinced because they keep saying, "Hey, I killed X # of coyotes with a 223. These guys gravitating to subcalibers, it's a certain segment, some kind of left brain stuff I don't understand.
I know that a 22-250 Ackley kills much better under all circumstances and conditions. Case closed.
Good hunting. El Bee
Posted by R.Shaw (Member # 73) on May 10, 2016, 08:38 PM:
Late February, I met a friend I hunt with a lot northwest of Gillette for a hunt and he had brought along a friend of his named Dan. That night while we were just sitting around, I asked Dan what he was shooting and he replied 223. He was not happy and a little pissed when I told him to be prepared for spinners and runners.
Mid afternoon the next day a coyote comes in and stops about 225 yards away. I tell Dan to shoot it and the coyote drops. He turns to me with a confident,shit-eating grin and cockily says...that ain't no spinner. Having not taken my eyes off the coyote, I see it jump up and take off running like a bastard. I turn to him and say...nope, this one's a runner. They finally get it killed going down a gully and it was still going.
BTW...Those Wyoming coyotes are some of the toughest I have ever had to call.
Posted by Lone Howl (Member # 29) on May 10, 2016, 08:50 PM:
.223 should not be used for coyote hunting...ever.
Im locking this thread!
Mark
Posted by Lone Howl (Member # 29) on May 10, 2016, 08:52 PM:
Ok, ok...this thread is unlocked..carry on.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 10, 2016, 09:18 PM:
That's funny.
My experience with 223 was short and kinda shocking. I couldn't believe well hit coyotes would do so much fussing, none were over 100 yards. Of course, it wasn't exactly fair. I was using (actually recycling) bullets that my Swift didn't like. And, this was in my trusty AR15, I don't even know the twist but it's an original Colt A1, now a safe queen, way in the back.
I had no desire to work it out, I had seen enough. It sure as hell didn't kill like my Swift. So, why would somebody use a cartridge that won't kill like a Swift? CASE CLOSED
I'm locking this!
Good hunting. El Bee
Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on May 11, 2016, 09:08 AM:
Randy, when I read your post, I could hear you in my head, delivering that "nope, you've got a runner" line...
Thanks for the belly laugh!!!
P.S.
I agree with Chad.
.223Rem is GREAT. Just neck it down (or UP), and you'll have something fun to mess with. Just picked up another 1K surplus, prepped LC brass for dirt cheap. Can't beat .223 based cartridges for economy & convenience...
Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on May 11, 2016, 09:14 AM:
I guess they are a little dangerous with those bullets bouncing off of everything...
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 11, 2016, 10:13 AM:
So Tom. Your position is, what? 223 is "good enough"? Kills every bit as good as those 22-250 Ackley's? And, doesn't ruin fur? Is just right for the size of the game we hunt? Excellent economy, save on powder, lots of surplus brass! You are a minimalist, why use overkill? All of the above?
Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on May 11, 2016, 11:55 AM:
While my 22-250AI is the bomb if I want to reach way across yonder to kill a coyote, a call gives me the option of getting my shots under 100 yards and most under 50. So the 223 is adequate for my uses.
I hate contests and don't do animal control. Heck I think I only went out 3 times this year and killed a half a dozen. Started my marathon training in January instead of hunting so my opinion doesn't really make much difference. I just don't think the average caller needs more but you know, everyone's gotta kill em at 300 yards... Like Cronk said, learn to call and you won't need a cannon.
I did sell the 243 AI due to overkill.
Posted by Lone Howl (Member # 29) on May 11, 2016, 12:06 PM:
Huh? Marathon? Im interested, please explain.
Mark
Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on May 11, 2016, 01:32 PM:
Daughter wanted to run a full marathon while she was still young enough to do it and wanted me to train with her. We started training in January for the April 24th OKC memorial and frankly it scared me a little. Once we made our 20 mile training run I was confident we could do it and we did.
But it consumed our lives and I'm glad to be done but she's looking for a fall marathon so we can try for a better time... I never learn.
Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on May 11, 2016, 03:21 PM:
Before
After and yes she's crying.
I just got my CS24 caller ugraded and back yesterday. My plan is to play catch up on the coyotes ASAP!
I was also gonna say, the last runner I witnessed was from a 17 Rem back around the first of the year. The one before that was with my 22-250AI last year so go figure.
Posted by Lone Howl (Member # 29) on May 11, 2016, 04:05 PM:
My hats off to you 2! Awsome.
Mark
Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on May 11, 2016, 04:26 PM:
Hell... I'm a pretty decent walker. I consider walking 26 miles non-stop a shit sandwich.
I'm in awe...
- DAA
Posted by Az-Hunter (Member # 17) on May 11, 2016, 04:32 PM:
Long ago; I spent a short weekend hunting with a gent toting a 6mm Remington. If I based my opinion of the 6mm killing coyotes, within the constraints of that short time frame, I would proclaim to the world, that the 6mm was a very poor performer on coyotes, maybe fine deer medicine, but just not the ticket for our desert coyotes, to many runners and blow ups for my taste.
Of course, the 6mm is fine for coyotes. If I tagged along with the guy using it for a dozen different weekends, and witnessed several dozen coyotes shot, Im sure I'd be a believer in the 6mm for coyotes, but based on what I saw, in that short time span, I would swear it sucked for coyotes.
Posted by 3 Toes (Member # 1327) on May 11, 2016, 04:33 PM:
So Shaw posts he was hunting near Gillette. Funny, I live near Gillette and take care of the north end of the county. You would think he'd call a guy for a beer or something. And by the way, I took Dave north of Gillette and we called coyotes with great ease! Seriously, you'd think a guy might call, or e-mail. Or maybe he heard about the grouchy old county trapper?
[ May 11, 2016, 04:37 PM: Message edited by: 3 Toes ]
Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on May 11, 2016, 05:20 PM:
I am just basing my experience with the .223 from one full season using one. I know that's not alot of time vested in using it. But What I saw I did not like. That's all... No scientific evidence based on the Cartridge. Just saw time and time again, spinners, runners, flipping and flopping, more than I care to deal with. Never seem to have that problem with my .204 Rugers, .17 Tactical, .22-250 or my .22-250 Ackley.
Then I start hearing the same results by some here too.
But for the guys that swear by them I will keep my eye out for any good deals on them I can pass on to you.
Good Hunting Chad
[ May 11, 2016, 05:21 PM: Message edited by: UTcaller ]
Posted by Frank (Member # 6) on May 11, 2016, 06:54 PM:
AZ-Hunter, my guess is you don't hunt at night and you are probly a good shot. You know dammed well a .22 in the head is lethal but you get some range going along with a bad shot and it's not hard to imagine runners....especially with newbies. No doubt I've seen bang-flops with a .223 but not so often at the longer ranges....I'll say often enough to notice.
Look, not everyone is a good shot like you might be. All things equal, velocity gives you more range and room for error........... physics don't lie.
Posted by R.Shaw (Member # 73) on May 11, 2016, 07:53 PM:
Cal....I was pretty close to you but to the southeast. Got a little confused with my directions. Moorecroft is near where we were hunting.
I am not one to impose or force myself into a situation, but if you are serious send me your contact email or something. I will come for a visit with notepad and pencil in hand. Seriously. arshaw@actcom.net
We hunted from Riverton to Rawlins and to Rock Springs. Private, public, and reservation. October thru most of December it was business as usual, but January thru February it was tough as hell. At least for us.
Oh...and 2 days after returning home, Dan made the contacts to have a custom 22/243 ai built. Quick learner.
Posted by 3 Toes (Member # 1327) on May 12, 2016, 03:21 AM:
I will send you my contact stuff Shaw. And I was just razzing you about the calling. By January in this country it's done. Too many callers, too many contests, just like every where else. I do all my calling this time of year with dogs. Winter time is for hot coffee and trapping. It's cold out.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 12, 2016, 08:21 AM:
First of all, Vic is turning the screws on me. That was my 6mm that failed for some unknown reason, but I will not judge by a single event. That's that same gun with which I killed everything I saw, one shot, in South Africa, including the elk size Kudu and a few jackals.
Anyway, if Shaw is meeting my Wyoming hero I want in, as he stills owes me one; shaw does. Forget the January stuff though, I've been there, done that! But, the cats are nice
Good hunting. El Bee
[ May 12, 2016, 08:21 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by tedo (Member # 4320) on May 12, 2016, 04:02 PM:
Back in the mid eighties I spent a summer in Greenland doing a seismic survey. During my stint as a dynamite shooter (50# per shot hole)I had a helper from the local village that was a hunter for the village. He used a Sako in .222 Remington for everything ie. musk-ox,fox,bears,hares, seals.During my travels in arctic Alaska it was unusual to see any rifles larger than a .243.
Posted by 3 Toes (Member # 1327) on May 12, 2016, 05:41 PM:
LB, you know you're always welcome.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 12, 2016, 07:30 PM:
I'd love to get up there, one of these days. LB
Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on May 13, 2016, 02:35 PM:
Man, I'd soak all that cold up with a smile just to spend a couple days out on your trapline, Cal!
Posted by 3 Toes (Member # 1327) on May 15, 2016, 02:14 AM:
Planes fly into Gillette every day.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 15, 2016, 07:59 AM:
Yeah, right! On days the wind don't blow. HA! Did Huber ever tell you about when I flew into Grand Rapids or Cedar Rapids or whatever it's called? They tried to land three times and turned around and went back to Denver where I slept on the floor all night. And the word, "slept" is extremely misleading.
But, really? How big a town IS Gillette? These are Jets that are landing every day? Just kidding.
Good hunting. El Bee
Posted by 3 Toes (Member # 1327) on May 15, 2016, 03:41 PM:
A withering metropolis of 30000 LB. and fading fast. Coal, oil, and gas, are dying fast and dragging Wyoming with them. Everybody and everything is being cut at alarming rates. Even the coyote hunting budget of state money is shrinking away. Good chance of being out of work in the next year or two, but on the bright side, I'm not yet. And a lot of people are.
Posted by Lonny (Member # 19) on May 15, 2016, 07:25 PM:
Cal, I was wondering how things were going with all the lay-offs?
Are people moving out or are they trying to find other work?
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 16, 2016, 06:17 AM:
Unfortunate, Cal. I am not up to speed on Wyoming, at all. What Democrat policy is responsible for all the economic downturn?
30,000, huh? I live in a moderately small suburb here in The Land of The Fruits and the Nuts. It's a bedroom community of less than 80,000 surrounded by cities that are closer to 200,000. It's not a bad little town, as things go, here.
Now, we have an airport, general aviation including a few business jets, but no 727's. Ontario International is less than ten miles south so I don't have to go into LAX to hop a plane for Hawaii. Or, Gillette.
Good hunting. El Bee
Posted by Moe (Member # 4494) on May 16, 2016, 09:10 AM:
I have a 222 magnum that is a solid killer. It only moves a bullet a little faster than a 223. But I also used a 222 back in the good old days that killed coyotes and bobcats stony dead. IMO bullet selection is the key. In both my 222 mag and my 222 I used a 50 grain Sierra Spitzer Blitz projectile. It's a highly frangible bullet that can't be used at 22-250 velocities.
In 2 partial days hunting I killed 12 coyotes with the 222 mag with no spinners or runners. My 223 AI is also a stone cold killer. I presently use a 50 grain V Max bullet but am looking to change to a 52 grain Berger MV.
If I could only use one cartridge, tho, it'd be a 22-250 or a 220 Swift.
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