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Author Topic: Old rule of thumb?
Bryan J
Cap and Trade Weenie
Member # 106

Icon 1 posted February 01, 2011 06:23 PM      Profile for Bryan J   Email Bryan J         Edit/Delete Post 
Twenty some years ago the local gun shop always had something in the back with my name on it. I bought them a Ben Franklin at a time. I stayed current on what was available from almost anyone. Now…. not so much.

It was probably a salesman that I trusted that made the statement. “Spend as much for glass as you do on the rifle.” Most of my rigs are set up like that and I have yet to be disappointed. I did skimp a time or two and was disappointed.

Is that rule of thumb still valid today?

I don’t know maybe it never was valid?

Posts: 599 | From: Utah | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged
CrossJ
SECOND PLACE: PAUL RYAN Look-a-like contest
Member # 884

Icon 1 posted February 01, 2011 07:20 PM      Profile for CrossJ   Email CrossJ         Edit/Delete Post 
Don't know about the spend as much as the rig deal, but I do believe you get what you pay for. Do I think you need a schmidt(sp?) and bender or a Nightforce....thats up to you. I personally like swarovski and zeiss. I know Lb will accuse me of being a snob, but I like them. And wtf, it could be an heirloom my kids can fight over when I'm gone....lol

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A friend will help you move. A good friend will help you move a body.

Posts: 1025 | From: on a water tower | Registered: Jul 2006  |  IP: Logged
RagnCajn
ADDS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING
Member # 879

Icon 1 posted February 01, 2011 08:19 PM      Profile for RagnCajn   Email RagnCajn         Edit/Delete Post 
It depends on what I intend to use the rifle for. My once a year Antelope rig, 25-06AI has a MK 5 on it. I want to know my dial ups will be there when I need it.

My PD Rifles carry anything from a 6-24 Sightron/8-32 Burris/4-16 4200 Bushnell.

The one thing I have found in scopes is each brand has a bargain vs quality model.

Like Geordie says, You get what you pay for in optics. There are no free rides when considering optics.

Edited because I can't my fingers won't type what my brain is thinking.

[ February 01, 2011, 08:20 PM: Message edited by: RagnCajn ]

Posts: 362 | From: Shreveport LA | Registered: Jul 2006  |  IP: Logged
Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2

Icon 1 posted February 01, 2011 08:28 PM      Profile for Leonard   Author's Homepage   Email Leonard         Edit/Delete Post 
Hey? Why are you picking on me, Geordie? I don't own a scope of less quality than Leupold and augment those with several European jobs. In fact seems to me, if anything the glass probably costs more that the rifle. In some cases, a lot more, and that's as it should be. Are you taking cheap shots at me because I have been picking on your buddy TA?

Good hunting. LB

Some friend!

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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!

Posts: 31462 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Field Marshall, Southern Minneesota Sector
Member # 794

Icon 1 posted February 01, 2011 09:15 PM      Profile for TA17Rem   Email TA17Rem         Edit/Delete Post 
I had a chat a couple of weeks ago with a friend of mine from a group I belong to. I asked him about N/F scopes and Leupolds and a few others.
Here is a reply I got from him on the matter..

quote:
Light transmission through the scope is what we're concerned with. The more light you let in (larger objective lens) the brighter the image. But, the higher the magnification, the darker the image. Divide the objective diameter in MM by the magnification (say 10x50mm) and you get an Exit Pupil (the little circle of light you see in the eyepiece when you hold a scope about 18 inches from your eye.) This EP corresponds to our own pupils which dilate from about 2mm in bright sun to 7mm in darkness. If the scope's EP is smaller than our own, we don't get as bright a view as we could. Ideally, a scope's EP should be 7mm wide to match our pupils in dimmest light. BUT, with age, our dilation decreases, perhaps as much as 2mm or 3mm. Highly variable. In general, I've found that a 4mm EP is adequate for putting a black crosshair onto a medium-toned animal (deer, coyote) 45 min. after sunset, perhaps an hour after (depending on other brightness factors I'll cover below.) So, a 42mm scope divided by 10X power gives you a 4.2mm objective, which I find more than adequate for 99 percent of my shooting. If I were specializing in super long range shooting after sunset and didn't need to carry the scope all day, I'd get a 50mm or even 56mm objective in order to keep the EP above 4mm at higher powers. A 15x50mm would yield a 3.5mm EP. A huge 56mm objective would only increase that to 3.7mm. A 10x55mm would give you 5.5mm. To get a maximum brightness from a 7mm EP, you'd need a 10x70mm scope. Probably ain't gonna find one.

Now, here's what really makes a huge difference in brightness: Anti-reflection coatings. They don't weigh anything, don't enlarge the physical size of the scope but more than double the light transmission. Here's how: raw glass reflects about 4 percent of light striking it and another 4 percent leaving it, for a loss of 8 percent per lens. Scopes have as many as 8 lenses total. Do the math, folks. One layer of magnesium sulfide anti-reflection coating cuts that reflection loss in half. Additional layers can knock it as low as 0.02 percent per air-to-glass surface. The end result is that using maximum layers of anti-reflection coatings produces scopes that transmit 95 percent of more of the light that enters. Combine that with a 4mm or larger EP and you're doing the best you can.

This means that a perfectly, multi-coated 10x40mm scope can easily transmit a brighter image than a poorly coated 10x56mm. Cheap 50mm and bigger objective scopes often add a "field stop" inside the main tube just behind the objective. This looks like a common washer and largely is. It's job is to eliminate poor-quality edge light from the big lens, which makes for a sharper image. This is what apertures (f-stops) in a camera do. It's a gimmick enabling companies to make/sell cheap scopes with huge objectives. But there is little or no brightness advantage.

The other thing anti-reflection coatings do is increase contrast by controlling flare and glare. Reflected light bounces around in a scope to create that fuzzy, foggy-looking haze we most commonly see when we look toward the low sun with a cheap scope. The entire view becomes muted, usually tinged orange. This is from all that uncontrolled, reflected and re-reflected light bouncing around inside. It's plenty bright, but not useably bright. Stop the reflections and you end up with a saturated view with crisp images that stand out. You can check all this stuff by aiming your scopes just off the low sun at sunrise and set. Do it with expensive and cheap models and you'll soon see the differences. Be sure to clean dust from the objective lens because all those dust specks reflect light to create haze and a dim image.

Increased contrast is useful because it helps us see the difference between subtle color hues like gray sagebrush and a coyote pelt, deer antlers and branches. Contrast increases resolution in low light situations.

By the way, if your scope has side parallax adjustment, it has an extra lens inside. Parallax adjustment is simply turning a lens to perfectly focus the image onto the reticle.

There's a lot going on in a scope, but since most of it is hidden in that dark tube, manufacturers can pull the wool over our eyes.

By Ron Spomer


quote:
Night Force scopes appear to me to be slightly superior to Leupold's VX3 line in optical precision and overall fit/finish and durability. But I haven't compared NF against Leupold Mark Vs. This is an an important point. Many scope makers have several lines from cheap to high dollar, so you have to compare the proper classes. NF were/are designed for heavy duty, military sniper work, as are the Mark Vs. You pay a weight penalty for the big, tough sniper scopes, but they are durable and tough. Zeiss are super precise, of course, and their range finding scope is unbelievable. So's the price. My compromise for spot and stalk coyote work would be the Zeiss RF binocular (ranges to 1,700 yards in a half second, one push of the button -- best in the business) coupled with either a MOA dial scope or one with multiple reticles. Check out Vortex's newest sniper scopes. They are surprisingly excellent and precise. I'd opt for the one without the windage MOA turret and use the MOA harsh marks on the reticle for holding into the wind. Faster, just as effective. One dial to turn is enough for me.

Ron Spomer



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What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!

Posts: 5064 | From: S.D. | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged
CrossJ
SECOND PLACE: PAUL RYAN Look-a-like contest
Member # 884

Icon 1 posted February 02, 2011 06:42 AM      Profile for CrossJ   Email CrossJ         Edit/Delete Post 
Sorry Lb....I was almost certain it was you making comments about being a 'optic snob' or something along those lines. It was at the campout 2 years ago....you know, when Paul was strutting around with his NF scope....lol.

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A friend will help you move. A good friend will help you move a body.

Posts: 1025 | From: on a water tower | Registered: Jul 2006  |  IP: Logged
knockemdown
Our staff photo editing Guru, par excellence
Member # 3588

Icon 1 posted February 02, 2011 06:59 AM      Profile for knockemdown   Author's Homepage           Edit/Delete Post 
Hi, my name is Fred & I have a scope addiction...

Admission is the 1st step, ain't it?

Posts: 2202 | From: behind fascist lines | Registered: Mar 2010  |  IP: Logged
Az-Hunter
Hi, I'm Vic WELCOME TO THE U.S. Free baloney sandwiches here
Member # 17

Icon 1 posted February 02, 2011 08:58 AM      Profile for Az-Hunter           Edit/Delete Post 
Im humbled reading this particular thread. I have three dedicated coyote rifles, they all wear the exact same optic, a Simmons Whitetail Expedition 1.5X6 heavy duplex, which cost the princely sum of a hundred bucks.
Im wondering now, how I even manage to kill a fucking coyote?, must be my old point shooting skills:)

Posts: 1627 | From: 5 miles west of Tim | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
DanS
Scorched Earth (AZ Sector)
Member # 316

Icon 1 posted February 02, 2011 09:43 AM      Profile for DanS           Edit/Delete Post 
The most expensive brand new scope I have ever purchased was a Leupold VX3. I have got some great deals on Zeiss, Lee-o-polds, Nikons and such.

Unlike Vic, I just don't trust the lower priced scopes like Simmons and Tasco's, and probably haven't given them a fair chance to fuck up on me.

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futuaris nisi irrisus ridebis

Saepe Expertus, Semper Fidelis, Fratres Aeterni:
Often Tested, Always Faithful. Brothers Forever!

Posts: 1465 | From: flyover country | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
JD
HONORARY OKIE .... and Tim's at fault!
Member # 768

Icon 1 posted February 02, 2011 09:55 AM      Profile for JD           Edit/Delete Post 
Good point Vic, I knew someone would be the voice of reason. Many people I know will back up that notion as far as a "calling" scope goes. I like the cheap 50MMs myself with a sun shade, never had a problem yet, in fact the only bad scope I ever fought with was a high dollar gold ring POS loopy.

Although, if I were a serious big game hunter, which I am not, I sure as hell wouldnt spend thousands of dollars & months of planning & let the whole trip pivot on a hundred dollar scope, but I think that point is obvious to this crowd.

Nothing wrong with having the best equipment but you dont NEED a porche to get to walmart.

quote:
“Spend as much for glass as you do on the rifle.”
That old "rule of thumb" was an incredible sales spin put into play by a scope manufacturer.

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Jason
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What do Obama & TA17Rem have in common........both are clueless asshats!!!

Posts: 1456 | From: NE. | Registered: Dec 2005  |  IP: Logged
Az-Hunter
Hi, I'm Vic WELCOME TO THE U.S. Free baloney sandwiches here
Member # 17

Icon 1 posted February 02, 2011 10:08 AM      Profile for Az-Hunter           Edit/Delete Post 
Please; do not think Im knocking good glass. All I used to run was the gold ring stuff, 6-24s on my PD rifles, and 2-7s on my predator rifles. All those rifles and glass are long since traded(bad habit I have), so when I accquired the new crop of rifles, I simply refused to buy the pricey stuff any longer. Ive yet to make a trade or sale where I gathered my cost of good glass on rifles, it's just the way the gun world works.
Gawd forbid I ever peek thru a Khales or Ziess scope, I'd then realize what shitty glass Im running. Im sure Im on the tail end of my hunting endeavors, so I just stick with what Ive been using, and so far, Im able to wack a few each winter.

Posts: 1627 | From: 5 miles west of Tim | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2

Icon 1 posted February 02, 2011 10:17 AM      Profile for Leonard   Author's Homepage   Email Leonard         Edit/Delete Post 
There's your humbled coyote fucker, it's Vic! Simmons? If I bought a rifle with a Simmons on in, I'd remove it before walking in the door.

Besides, I think I read, somewhere, that Vic got to actually look through a decent scope (last year, maybe?) and actually saw what all the fuss was about. He probably won't admit it, now? Too busy telling us we're all wrong, any junk scope is adequate.

I have this hilarious image of Paul M strutting around with a barbell size Nightforce scope. Was he acting real uppity, too? OMG! That must have been special!

Good hunting. LB

Vic humbled. Yeah, right!

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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!

Posts: 31462 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2

Icon 1 posted February 02, 2011 10:25 AM      Profile for Leonard   Author's Homepage   Email Leonard         Edit/Delete Post 
There's your humbled coyote fucker, it's Vic! Simmons? If I bought a rifle with a Simmons on in, I'd remove it before walking in the door.

Besides, I think I read, somewhere, that Vic got to actually look through a decent scope (last year, maybe?) and actually saw what all the fuss was about. He probably won't admit it, now? Too busy telling us we're all wrong, any junk scope is adequate.

I have this hilarious image of Paul M strutting around with a barbell size Nightforce scope. Was he acting real uppity, too? OMG! That must have been special!

Good hunting. LB

Vic humbled. Yeah, right!

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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!

Posts: 31462 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
Az-Hunter
Hi, I'm Vic WELCOME TO THE U.S. Free baloney sandwiches here
Member # 17

Icon 1 posted February 02, 2011 10:28 AM      Profile for Az-Hunter           Edit/Delete Post 
You know better Leonard, I was serious. Im sure there's been more than one guy who Ive hunted with, think to himself, what the fuck is he doing with a piece of shit Simmons on that nice rifle?
I should be chagrined....but Im not, past that point now I guess:) Hell; I used to be a fine physical specimen, now Ive got a pot belly,wrinkles, and no hair, and Im past that too.
Trust me, I can appreciate good glass, I just don't use it any more.

Posts: 1627 | From: 5 miles west of Tim | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2

Icon 1 posted February 02, 2011 11:06 AM      Profile for Leonard   Author's Homepage   Email Leonard         Edit/Delete Post 
Losing your hair? I wondered why you never take that Ducks Unlimited hat off?

See, Vic wears sort of a uniform, same type of boots same pants same denim shirt, or sometimes a subdued checked job, maybe on weekends? Along with the Mexican wrestler sneakers. Never shaves, but it never gets longer?

And, rumor has it that he is selling a map of all his favorite stand locations before he moves. I hear DanS is the highest bidder, thus far? Now I hear he is cutting the map into equal pieces! My piece looks suspiciously like Higgins' area around Eloy. I'VE BEEN ROBBED!

edit: I think we are having next year's Ronde in your new trailer? You are in charge of bringing the Meskin girls in.

[ February 02, 2011, 11:17 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]

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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!

Posts: 31462 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
DanS
Scorched Earth (AZ Sector)
Member # 316

Icon 1 posted February 02, 2011 11:20 AM      Profile for DanS           Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Along with the Mexican wrestler sneakers
I thought those were bowling alley boots?

Damn now the secret is out about the map, I'm going to have to sell off a few more rifles to afford the new bids.

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futuaris nisi irrisus ridebis

Saepe Expertus, Semper Fidelis, Fratres Aeterni:
Often Tested, Always Faithful. Brothers Forever!

Posts: 1465 | From: flyover country | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
JoeF
resides "back east"
Member # 228

Icon 1 posted February 02, 2011 11:54 AM      Profile for JoeF   Email JoeF         Edit/Delete Post 
I like nice scopes, too.

That said, in this day and age of $700 plain Jane factory rifles if anybody thinks they need to spend more on a scope than the rifle to get an adequate scope they are fooling themselves and cutting in to their travel budget.

Posts: 646 | From: Midwest | Registered: Aug 2003  |  IP: Logged
Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2

Icon 1 posted February 02, 2011 12:32 PM      Profile for Leonard   Author's Homepage   Email Leonard         Edit/Delete Post 
Yeah, uh huh? Wait 'til you get old, Joe.

edit: haha, Dan! I hear your piece of the map is of downtown Douglas! That rascal! I'm going to take MacNeal off the banned words list!

Good hunting. LB

You guys need to understand. Vic hunts Bluebird days, no long johns, just thin cotton camo and his Wranglers. It's no wonder he doesn't have the need to line up on a song dog before actual sun up.

And, another thing. All this talk about adequate glass doesn't take into consideration night hunting. There is no question that the best you can afford is money well spent.

[ February 02, 2011, 12:39 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]

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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!

Posts: 31462 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
JoeF
resides "back east"
Member # 228

Icon 1 posted February 02, 2011 12:37 PM      Profile for JoeF   Email JoeF         Edit/Delete Post 
Does it get cheaper to travel then?

Just funning with you, but $700 buys lots of "adequate".

Posts: 646 | From: Midwest | Registered: Aug 2003  |  IP: Logged
JoeF
resides "back east"
Member # 228

Icon 1 posted February 02, 2011 12:41 PM      Profile for JoeF   Email JoeF         Edit/Delete Post 
One of my most troubling indicators of aging; aside from needing bifocals, is that my beloved fine duplexed Leupold 4x33 rimfire just ain't enough scope for what a guy uses a rimfire for, anymore.
Posts: 646 | From: Midwest | Registered: Aug 2003  |  IP: Logged
Paul Melching
Radical Operator Forum "You won't get past the front gate"
Member # 885

Icon 1 posted February 02, 2011 12:48 PM      Profile for Paul Melching           Edit/Delete Post 
Just goes to show what happens when you dont pay attention! That was not a nightforce scope I do not, nor have I ever had a nightforce scope. As a matter of fact someone else is the new proud owner of that barbell scope and it was a grest piece while I had it. While All you bolt action only cranks were busy drooling over my AR, you failed to see that mounted atop that machinegun was a very special piece of glass.I have a very common burris scope on that rifle now and the difference being that instead of taking the center out of a dime it now takes the center out of a quarter. good enough for hunting! the real difference is about two grand. I like my AR but truth is nothing will replace my 22-250 complete with bolt action, and a bsa scope the bsa stands for barley see anything. lol

[ February 02, 2011, 01:50 PM: Message edited by: Paul Melching ]

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Those who value security over liberty soon will have neither !

Posts: 4188 | From: The forest ! north of the dez. | Registered: Jul 2006  |  IP: Logged
Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2

Icon 1 posted February 02, 2011 01:07 PM      Profile for Leonard   Author's Homepage   Email Leonard         Edit/Delete Post 
Well, if that's what I think it is, and the dastardly koko took a surreptitious and totally unauthorized photograph of somebody handling Paul's POS, and even though Kelly threatened to post that pic because koko himself is technically challenged, it never happened due to bribery and threats. How's that for a run on sentence?

But, if 'ol chicken legs wasn't prancing around with a high dollar Nightforce, what on earth WAS it?

I'm starting to think Geordie doesn't get ANYTHING right?

Good hunting. LB

edit:
quote:
I now have a very common burris scope on that rifle now
.....and I have the Burris box it came in? Is that what you're trying to say?

[ February 02, 2011, 01:10 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]

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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!

Posts: 31462 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
Paul Melching
Radical Operator Forum "You won't get past the front gate"
Member # 885

Icon 1 posted February 02, 2011 01:21 PM      Profile for Paul Melching           Edit/Delete Post 
No you have the nice box the burris 'signature' that sits on my 30-06 came in. rotflmfao

and Geordie is right about a lot of things just missed it on this one!

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Those who value security over liberty soon will have neither !

Posts: 4188 | From: The forest ! north of the dez. | Registered: Jul 2006  |  IP: Logged
Paul Melching
Radical Operator Forum "You won't get past the front gate"
Member # 885

Icon 1 posted February 02, 2011 01:43 PM      Profile for Paul Melching           Edit/Delete Post 
KOKO
When you gonna release the photos! Leonard fondling my machine gun! while Geordie full of lust looks on. shit you could maybe sellem to the enquierer.

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Those who value security over liberty soon will have neither !

Posts: 4188 | From: The forest ! north of the dez. | Registered: Jul 2006  |  IP: Logged
Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2

Icon 1 posted February 02, 2011 02:17 PM      Profile for Leonard   Author's Homepage   Email Leonard         Edit/Delete Post 
Sits in the safe, unmounted. I'm going to have one built especially for it. Be looking for the coming out party.

Good hunting. LB

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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!

Posts: 31462 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged


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