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Author
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Topic: Bushings sizes for .17-.204
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92soggy
Knows what it's all about
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posted April 01, 2014 03:52 PM
I'm putting together a .17-.204 and am wondering what size bushings I will need. If I add the bullet diameter (.172) plus the neck thickness (.011) X2 (.022) I get .194. Should that be my final bushing size?
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted April 01, 2014 04:24 PM
I don't know if your math is correct or not but .011 seems like an unusually thin neck wall dimension? In any case, I think they usually recommend deducting one thou for proper bullet tension?
Good luck, LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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DAA
Utah/Promoted WESTERN REGIONAL Hunt Director
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posted April 01, 2014 04:40 PM
I usually end up using one pretty close to .0015 under loaded O.D. (on the pressure ring if the bullet has one).
- DAA
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"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter
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Aaron Rhoades
Knows what it's all about
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posted April 01, 2014 06:32 PM
Here is the dilemma, I just ordered a reamer from Dave(PT&G) and I told him that I wanted it so that there would be no neck turning. He said I want a .202 neck and .025 freebore for the 30gr bullets. A .202 neck would leave .008 (.202-.194) tolerance for the neck. Is that too much? Seems awful big to me.
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DanS
Scorched Earth (AZ Sector)
Member # 316
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posted April 01, 2014 08:21 PM
I just measured my 17-223 loaded necks and they are .197 to .198 with LC Brass
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Duckdog
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posted April 01, 2014 09:06 PM
I'm not exactly sure how you came by that .194 by that method,...
But, apparently it works because that's going to be real close to where you want to be. I think I finish with a .195, but I'd go .194 if I had one.
I also use a couple of intermediate bushings inbetween new brass and the .195.
Not sure if it's neccasary, but I kind of undertook this process blind and it seemed logical.
The Sinclair catalog recommends .002 neck tension, so you measure a loaded round then subtract .002 to get your final bushing size. (Some like more tension.)
Posts: 205 | From: Ks | Registered: Jun 2011
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted April 01, 2014 09:13 PM
Every Redding bushing I have states one thousandth. That's what I use, not saying it's more correct than Sinclair but that's what Redding says.
good hunting. El Bee
edit: yeah and as I said above, I also kinda questioned his math or his measurements.
[ April 01, 2014, 09:14 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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Duckdog
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posted April 01, 2014 09:26 PM
Huh..., .001 sure doesn't seem like much tension. (Not that it's a huge difference). Some guys are adamant about .004 in "hunting" ammo.
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Prune Picker
AR Forum Assistant Moderator-handgun GURU and dispenser of sage advice
Member # 4107
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posted April 01, 2014 11:42 PM
Aaron, I'm thinking your reamer maker's response in neck size is directly related to your 'no neck turning request'. Generally when a wildcat is born from a parent case that requires necking down as in your version being a 222 Rem Mag or a 204 Ruger necked to 17 cal, it is almost mandatory to turn necks, either inside neck reaming and or outside neck turning for a couple of reasons. One being, cleaning up brass that has one side thicker than the other, and probably the most important reason is the necks are usually way too thick to begin with when they are reduced in size (.224 or 204 down to 17 cal). Buy yourself a pair of good quality micrometers that will allow you to measure both wall thickness, a sheet metal type mic will allow you to measure from the inside of a 17cal hole, and an O.D. or conventional mic for an accurate measurement of the loaded case dia. If your budget is tight, maybe a quality dial caliper will do but isn't capable of repeated accurate measurement's.
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mike
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DAA
Utah/Promoted WESTERN REGIONAL Hunt Director
Member # 11
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posted April 02, 2014 03:22 AM
quote:
Here is the dilemma, I just ordered a reamer from Dave(PT&G) and I told him that I wanted it so that there would be no neck turning. He said I want a .202 neck and .025 freebore for the 30gr bullets. A .202 neck would leave .008 (.202-.194) tolerance for the neck. Is that too much? Seems awful big to me.
Slop city... I prefer zero freebore with the 30's I use.
And .202 is pretty common for no-turn necks, but it's way too sloppy for my taste.
I always start a project with the actual brass and intended bullets in hand. Impossible to order a proper reamer without having carefully measured the brass it's supposedly being made to fit and work with.
So measure the O.D. of your loaded necks. Order a reamer to fit them.
- DAA
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"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter
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knockemdown
Our staff photo editing Guru, par excellence
Member # 3588
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posted April 02, 2014 03:38 AM
WORD
Listen to Dave!
I was lucky in that he allowed me to pick his brain before spec'ing my .17Predator. I didn't know shat about freebore considerations, so went with "0", based on his expertise.
Although we used the same smith, I settled with a slightly thicker neck diameter than on Dave's .17P. After prepping, stepping down and turning, I let the .223 Lapua brass I was using determine what neck dia. to chamber.
Ended up turning necks to .0125", best I could measure, and ended up with .197 loaded rd. nk. dia. That meant spec'ing Mr. Tannel to do a .199"nk. Bushing I use is a .195 for 2thou tension...
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Kelly Jackson
SECOND PLACE/GARTH BROOKS LOOK-A-LIKE CONTEST
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posted April 02, 2014 04:13 AM
agreed - zero freebore. After my first barrel was toast, I had my reamer reground.
Using Norma brass a loaded round is .196
Using a .192 bush
Not turning brass.
Good luck with your build.
kj
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted April 02, 2014 06:21 AM
quote:
WORD
Listen to Dave!
I was lucky in that he allowed me to pick his brain before spec'ing my .17Predator.
Seems like I should be entitled to a finder's fee?
I also have some input via email, from he who shall be nameless.Let me find it.....
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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Aaron Rhoades
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posted April 02, 2014 06:33 AM
The measuring is as follows, .172 caliber bullet, plus one side of the brass thickness(.011), since there is 2 sides, add another .011, for a total of .194. Are we missing something?
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Aaron Rhoades
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posted April 02, 2014 06:35 AM
Also, if our measuring is correct, should I call Dave back and tell him that .008 is more than I would like and we will turn necks after all? If so, how tight should the neck tolerances be? .002?
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Aaron Rhoades
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posted April 02, 2014 06:37 AM
One final thing for this morning, we don't have a loaded round to deal with as of now and probably won't for another month as the bullets are out about that long. Thanks for the help.
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knockemdown
Our staff photo editing Guru, par excellence
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posted April 02, 2014 06:54 AM
Leonard, I have much to thank you for, but this was, circa 2008? Dave didn't know me from Adam, yet was still gracious enough to help me. Great learning experience!
Aaron, how are you measuring neck thickness?
.011 seems kinda thin, without any turning?
I barely skimmed my resized Lapua brass, down to ~.0125, or the best I could extrapolate on my Redding Case Neck Gauge.
F.W.I.W, I use a .003" neck tension in my other bolt rifles. Little extra peace of mind for magazine fed rounds...
[ April 02, 2014, 07:03 AM: Message edited by: knockemdown ]
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted April 02, 2014 06:57 AM
FAIR WARNING !
MAKE WOMEN AND CHILDREN LEAVE THE ROOM!
First off they need to know what the neck dia. is for the chamber. Lets say its a no turn neck, that should be .198 .. Next they need to take a 17-204 case with a seated bullet and take a measurement, lets say it comes to .196. For a neck sizing bushing they can go with .195, .194 and .193 with .193 being the better of the three choices. In other words .003 smaller than the outside measurement of a loaded round...
If they are making a case from scratch then I recommend two bushings minimum to size the neck down, can be done with one but there is a chance of splitting the neck or crushing it...
P.S. just incase a neck with a seated bullet is the same size as chamber then some neck turning will be needed, .002 0r .003 less than chamber...
Free bore should be at .010 with bullet seated so the base of bullet is at the bottom of neck/ shoulder junction...
signed: (he who shall be nameless)
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31462 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted April 02, 2014 07:08 AM
Okay, time for a word of caution from an old fart who has been there.
People can get a bit to carried away on this precision shit in regards to a rifle for hunting live targets. Be very careful specifying tight necks. More better to have a little slop, this ain't bench rest.
Good hunting. El Bee
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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TRnCO
FUTURE HALL OF FAMER
Member # 690
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posted April 02, 2014 07:59 AM
If it were me, I'd find someone with the .17 cal. bullet that you plan to use, and have them send you a couple, so that you can get the seated bullet neck dia. I've got 30 gr. bergers, 25 gr. nagels, and some 20 gr. v-max that I could send ya.
With win. brass, I sized down to .196 bushing and end up with .198 loaded neck dia., .002 tension. If I remember right, my rifle has a .201 neck.
I start with a .219 bushing, then a .212, then the .196.
[ April 02, 2014, 08:05 AM: Message edited by: TRnCO ]
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Prune Picker
AR Forum Assistant Moderator-handgun GURU and dispenser of sage advice
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posted April 02, 2014 12:09 PM
Aaron, if you're going to single *load*, less neck tension can be desirable for better bench type groups. But if loading thru your magazine box, more neck tension will be required along with slightly thicker case necks. I guess the argument is do you want benchrest accuracy or an accurate rifle that causes no loading problems.
single *load*, not single shot... Sorry bout that
[ April 02, 2014, 12:35 PM: Message edited by: Prune Picker ]
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mike
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92soggy
Knows what it's all about
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posted April 02, 2014 01:32 PM
We appreciate all the help guys.
TRNCO can i get your email or phone number?
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TRnCO
FUTURE HALL OF FAMER
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posted April 02, 2014 01:45 PM
soggy, I Emailed both to you from here at work.
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Is it hunting season yet? I hate summer!
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Aaron Rhoades
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posted April 02, 2014 05:01 PM
Thanks a lot for the help TR! I measured the case neck thickness and it varies between .011 and .012 with the majority being .012. This is with new Nosler brass. As far as how we are measuring it, just with calipers, I have a picture incoming. 
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Aaron Rhoades
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posted April 02, 2014 05:13 PM
So now where we are at is, .172+.024(.012+.012)=.196. So with a .202 reamer neck we still have .006 clearance in the chamber neck total around the case neck(or .003 per side). TR says he has .003 and the unnamed says .002-.003 is the number to shoot for. I'm guessing once we get a loaded dummy round the loaded case will measure a little bigger(.197-.198) than what our figuring comes up with. So is the .202 bigger than what most of you guys like?
[ April 02, 2014, 05:14 PM: Message edited by: Aaron Rhoades ]
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