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Author
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Topic: Bushings sizes for .17-.204
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Aaron Rhoades
Knows what it's all about
Member # 4234
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posted April 02, 2014 05:16 PM
Kelly, what size neck on your rifle?
Posts: 155 | From: Washington | Registered: Oct 2012
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Duckdog
Knows what it's all about
Member # 3842
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posted April 02, 2014 05:29 PM
If you're looking for an absolute hard number on which bushing to buy, you're not going to get it that way.
If you're collecting parts and components for when the rifle gets done, I'd suggest buying a .193, a .194, and a .195.
One of those will probably get you there, and you may eventually use all of them if you switch brands of brass, or maybe find some thicker necks...etc.
I'm not Kelly, but my 17/204 is a .201 neck.
Posts: 205 | From: Ks | Registered: Jun 2011
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted April 02, 2014 07:58 PM
Bushings aren't cheap. Personally, I'd buy the one I think I need, maybe the middle one and if it's not gonna work go one size up or one size down.
What I am a little puzzled about is where are you guys buying bushings in .0005" increments?
Good hunting. El Bee
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31465 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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knockemdown
Our staff photo editing Guru, par excellence
Member # 3588
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posted April 03, 2014 03:52 AM
Measuring neck thickness with calibers, as shown, is not an exact science. And I certainly would not recommend spec'ing reamer dimensions based off case necks measured that way.
Here's my advice. If you have ZERO inclination of EVER turning necks on ANY brass, just stick with that "no turn" .202 neck.
By doing so, you will be able to neck down brass from any manufacturer and KNOW that it will reliably & safely function in your rifle. That's what a "no turn" reamer designates.
If you want to mess with going a thou. or two smaller to try to eeek out some extra accuracy, then be advised that the next batch of brass you neck down for that stick might have thicker necks from the factory. THEN...you are fucked!
IMHO, shit...or get off the pot.
If you're really that concerned with accuracy, then pursue it right from the start! Spec out a tight chamber, turn your necks true to fit with minimal clearance, use the right bushing, have your action fully blueprinted/ squared, bolt sleeved, firing pin bushed, etc.
Or, keep shit simple, go with a "no turn" neck, and live happily ever after.
TR, KJ, Kevin, and a bunch of other guys have "no turn" chambers in .17hotrods and I don't get any inclination of them wanting for accuracy.
Choice is yours, but don't overthink it. (that's coming from someone who tends to overthink things)
Good luck!
Posts: 2202 | From: behind fascist lines | Registered: Mar 2010
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DAA
Utah/Promoted WESTERN REGIONAL Hunt Director
Member # 11
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posted April 03, 2014 05:45 AM
Yup. I wasn't going to say anything. But since Fred did, I'll just chime in to agree with him.
Calipers are not the tool for the measuring task you are using them for.
And if that is the level of precision you are wanting to pursue, just go with the sloppy chamber and call it good.
BTW... It's a whole 'nuther subject that I don't feel like repeating for the thousandth time, but if you aren't going to turn necks, you'll want to keep the expander with the bushing dies. But they probably aren't going to come out of the box with a .17 caliber expander? Or maybe they will? I haven't looked into buying any of those dies for years and years.
Leonard, about the half thousandth bushings... I use full thousandth size, but turn my necks for a loaded OD of ~.0015 larger than the bushing.
But, that said - bushings are tapered. Turn them over and you have a half thousandth difference.
- DAA
[ April 03, 2014, 05:46 AM: Message edited by: DAA ]
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"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter
Posts: 2676 | From: Salt Lake City, UT | Registered: Jan 2003
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knockemdown
Our staff photo editing Guru, par excellence
Member # 3588
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posted April 03, 2014 06:38 AM
Dave, I only opened my big yapper, cuz it is the same logic that resonated in my brain bucket, when I heard it from you.
Of course, you know that, but these guys might not. Just paying it forward, so to speak... ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Posts: 2202 | From: behind fascist lines | Registered: Mar 2010
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Kelly Jackson
SECOND PLACE/GARTH BROOKS LOOK-A-LIKE CONTEST
Member # 977
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posted April 03, 2014 07:00 AM
will try and go by the shop and look at the reamer print for the neck size today
Posts: 997 | From: Comanche OK | Registered: Oct 2006
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted April 03, 2014 03:19 PM
quote:
TR, KJ, Kevin, and a bunch of other guys have "no turn" chambers in .17hotrods and I don't get any inclination of them wanting for accuracy. (Fred from New Yawk)
That's what I was trying to say, yesterday. If you want a tight neck, first of all you better be a pretty accomplished and experienced handloader. And, you have something in mind that is heavy on the precision aspect of shooting. Sometimes a hunting application means you have to have tradeoffs, which is where I'm at.
I don't load hot.I don't want split necks or pierced primers or case head separation. I also don't want 44 grains of spherical powder dumped in my action in the middle of the night just because I ejected a loaded round. So I don't jamb the lands. Period. I must suffer with whatever accuracy I wind up with by forgoing all those little accuracy twerks, the one's that potentially can cause me trouble.
Now, I have some tight necks but you know what? I just can't say, with conviction, that that is the reason for my wonderful accuracy.
Put me down for "luck of the draw" if you have a superbly accurate barrel, it makes up for a whole lot of hand loading mistakes and "improvements". Get down on your knees and pray for a super accurate barrel. Then trust some gunsmith to not fuck it up.
That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
Good hunting. El Bee
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31465 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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92soggy
Knows what it's all about
Member # 4362
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posted April 07, 2014 05:44 PM
We got the bullets today, thanks much TR.
Posts: 39 | From: Washington | Registered: Mar 2013
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TRnCO
FUTURE HALL OF FAMER
Member # 690
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posted April 08, 2014 05:30 AM
good deal.
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Is it hunting season yet? I hate summer!
Posts: 996 | From: Elizabeth, CO | Registered: Aug 2005
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Kelly Jackson
SECOND PLACE/GARTH BROOKS LOOK-A-LIKE CONTEST
Member # 977
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posted April 09, 2014 05:50 AM
the neck on my reamer is .201
Sorry for the delay. Been out of town.
LB - Crow Woman says your HOT. I think her eyes may be starting to go.
kj
Posts: 997 | From: Comanche OK | Registered: Oct 2006
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted April 09, 2014 08:22 AM
Kelly, believe me, being just another pretty face is actually a curse. I prefer women to desire me for my mind, not my body!
And, be sure and give Crow Woman my best, next time you see her.
Good hunting. El Bee
[ April 09, 2014, 08:22 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31465 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Az-Hunter
Hi, I'm Vic WELCOME TO THE U.S. Free baloney sandwiches here
Member # 17
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posted April 09, 2014 10:02 AM
What an eye opener this thread has been; at least for me. Ive been reloading since I was 14, using a hammer and a set of Lee 12 gauge shotgun dies, and it just progressed exponentially from there. Now I have two Dillon 550s and a Rock Chucker single stage press on my bench, along with the many accessories we collect, case trimmers,bullet pullers,electronic scales, case cleaning tumblers...on and on.
I sat here last night, and from memory, tried to recount every varmint type rifle Ive owned and loaded for, and Im sure I missed one or three, but I came up with 34 rifles chambered in .22 cal or smaller. Probably a third or more were, to some degree, "custom" or high end factory rifles ie: Kimber or Cooper.
Im a bit embarrassed to say, a week ago, if you had tossed me a "bushing" and asked me what it was, I'd have shrugged my shoulder and said no, what is it? Ive never used a neck bushing in my reloading regiment, but have owned some wonderfully accurate rifles, quite a few that were in the quarter inch realm.
My question being, how much more is there to be gained by chasing the perfect neck dimensions to chamber by using bushings and neck turning etc?
Trust me, Im not bashing the thread, Ive learned a lot by listening to this one, humbled me actually, for I thought I was an accomplished reloader. Goes to show, you don't know, what you don't know.
Posts: 1629 | From: 5 miles west of Tim | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted April 09, 2014 10:37 AM
You're way too modest, but thanks for backing me up. Yes, it's the barrel where your accuracy resides.
Good hunting. El Bee
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31465 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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DanS
Scorched Earth (AZ Sector)
Member # 316
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posted April 09, 2014 04:24 PM
Vic,
Have you ever FL sized a 17 Rem and not used and expander, then measured how much the die sized the brass (the neck mainly)? I think I still have a Hornady FL die that sizes the neck down to about .160 for the ID. Seriously overworks it and caused necks to split. Or you anneal more often.
I have a couple rifles that I have to turn necks. Not really that bad unless you have to do hundreds.
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Saepe Expertus, Semper Fidelis, Fratres Aeterni:
Often Tested, Always Faithful. Brothers Forever!
Posts: 1465 | From: flyover country | Registered: Feb 2004
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Aaron Rhoades
Knows what it's all about
Member # 4234
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posted April 09, 2014 06:10 PM
We got the dies today with .212, .196 and .194 bushings. Took apart the die and removed the expander and dropped the .212 bushing in. Ran about 6 cases through and took some measurements then put the .196 bushing in and ran them through again and measured again. This time, after the .196 bushing the necks measured .195. Is this what you meant, Dave, about using a .17cal expander? We seated 3 of the bullets that we got from TR to 2.26 and measured the outside neck dimension and got .197.
Posts: 155 | From: Washington | Registered: Oct 2012
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knockemdown
Our staff photo editing Guru, par excellence
Member # 3588
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posted April 10, 2014 04:22 AM
Mr. Vic,
A sizer bushing isn't any magical 'cure all' for a reloader's accuracy issues. However, sizing case necks that have been turned to a uniform thickness, is where a bushing/die will allow the reloader to 'dial in' a particular amount of neck tension. And thanks to the trued, turned neck diameter, that tension will be evenly imparted around the circumfrence of the bullet.
As described in the above posts, for desired 3 thou. tension, simply use a bushing that measures .003" smaller than your loaded rd. neck. diameter.
When sizing cases with a bushing/die, there are two benefits I'm shooting for.
One, that consistent tension hopefully will result in a lower ES, as the bullet is being released from the same amount of grip upon firing. Any improvement in accuracy might not be as evident @ 100yds, but it darn sure will show as less vertical dispersion on target, at increasing distance.
Two, when sized with a bushing (and expander removed), the case neck itself is only being manipulated by a very small amount. And that amount is your choice! The less that neck gets squeezed & stretched back & forth, the longer the life of the case will be.
With traditional resizing, the case neck itself is literally 'squashed down' waaaay tight on the downstroke. Much too tight to get a bullet seated! But, on the upstroke, the expander button comes up thru and re-opens the neck to the pre-determined diameter. And usually there's mucho neck tension present.
The result is, necks being over-worked, no consistency of neck tension, and importantly...potential runout induced by stretching/bending of the necks as the expander pulls up through. Toom uch lube on one neck, and not enough on the other, and you're yankin' up on them necks! Soft brass is gonna give under the strain...
Also, I use bushings to size cases down when building wildcats. I'm using a Redding Type S .243AI bushing die to neck down cases for use in my .22-243Imp wildcat. Just hafta swap the bushing out, and run the cases thru...
Same for my 6.5SAUM wildcat. Type S 7SAUM dies, just with the appropriate bushings to step down, incrementally...
I'm curious, Mr. Vic. With all those wacky sub calibers you've loaded for, have you used any 'custom' dies to load for any?
A custom FL die that's cut for a particular chamber won't have those same 'generic' deficiencies that over the counter FL dies might. A custom die can be reamed to where its not overly-working the necks on each pass. And expanders can be polished to a degree where they pass up thru the necks with less stress.
FWIW, in the Redding FL dies I DO use, I put floating carbide expander balls in them. No need to lube the inside necks, and they pass up thru quite smoothly...
Posts: 2202 | From: behind fascist lines | Registered: Mar 2010
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted April 10, 2014 06:33 AM
I've looked in Vic's safe. He appears to be more of a trader than a hoarder. I also think those Dillons were bought primarily for handgun stuff, and you know how accurate they can be?
But, don't think he does not know his way around a reloading room. Shit, his weight room/reloading room is the size of my family room with lots of bench and shelf space. A nice touch is the lion pelt that hangs unobtrusively, (and modestly) behind the door!
All of this stuff is peeling back layers. We might get into something and after a while, decide it's not cracked up for what we thought. In other words, yeah, there's an advantage in turning necks and bushings measured in half a thousandth. And, mercifully, some never visit that affliction and somehow manage to kill a critter, now and then.
Carry on, y'all.
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31465 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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