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Author
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Topic: .22-.243 Middlestead?
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furhvstr
Knows what it's all about
Member # 1389
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posted April 22, 2011 09:14 PM
Anyone have one?
I heard that it would stomp a mud-hole in a coyotes arse waaay out there.
ML
[ April 22, 2011, 09:15 PM: Message edited by: furhvstr ]
Posts: 144 | From: California | Registered: Apr 2007
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted April 22, 2011 10:42 PM
They say it's way overbore? What do you think, Mercer?
Okay, okay. I invested in a ready made 22/243Middlestead, of all things? Waiting for a gunsmith to turn out your dream rifle is for the birds, for some of us. Been there, got the tee shirt. So, this one has less than 300 rounds through the Hart barrel, 1x14" twist, should hold up, I'm thinking? Comes with brass and dies and a switch barrel in 22-250 Ackley, a caliber I am quite familiar with.
I had a hard time talking him out of it. Haha, wait 'til he tries to cash that check.
Anyway, that puny 223AI cost me a coyote last year and AR immediately scorned me because of it. Then, he said his new build was a Middlestead, so I'm keeping up with the Jones's, so to speak.
We shall see? I would like this to be my main daylight gun, this season. Keep your fingers crossed!
GH/LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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TOM64
Knows what it's all about
Member # 561
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posted April 23, 2011 06:08 AM
I still don't see the 1/14 twist. Please explain.
Posts: 2283 | From: okieland | Registered: Feb 2005
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted April 23, 2011 09:56 AM
First of all, this rifle was built for a man now deceased, who kept meticulous records and favored 40 grain and 55 grain bullets. At velocities in this range, there is no need for a fast twist, to generate enough RPM to stabilize bullets of that weight.
Although he was using 55 VMax, I think I will try the 55 Nosler and am very confident that a 1X14" twist is more than adequate, and the barrel should last far longer than a faster twist....all things being equal.
What is your concern? If I wanted to use long 70 grain bullets, I might have the same concerns, but I really believe this twist is not a problem, at all.
GH/LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31462 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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TOM64
Knows what it's all about
Member # 561
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posted April 23, 2011 03:43 PM
If it's what you want then there is no problem.
I'd prefer a 1/9 to stabilize higher BC bullets like a 75 A-max and cheat the wind as much as I could with that much horse power.
Posts: 2283 | From: okieland | Registered: Feb 2005
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Kelly Jackson
SECOND PLACE/GARTH BROOKS LOOK-A-LIKE CONTEST
Member # 977
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posted April 23, 2011 04:11 PM
LB wants a lazer out to 400.
Shot a male coyote behind the shoulder with a 243 "bolt gun" this morning. About 220 out as it was leaving after working the dog. Hit it right behind the shoulder no exit.
Knocked 3 foot of guts straight out its arsehole. Never seen that happen before, have any of you?
stay after them
Kelly
Posts: 997 | From: Comanche OK | Registered: Oct 2006
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knockemdown
Our staff photo editing Guru, par excellence
Member # 3588
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posted April 23, 2011 04:30 PM
I gots a straight up .22-243 coming one of these days. 1:7.7" Krieger. opted away away from the Middlested for a couple/3 reasons....
One, the build is on a Remmy Seven action. More svelt than a 700 and less internal room for a sharp shouldered case to transition outta the box & feed reliably. Just a guess, but didn't feel like taking the chance with a longer case with less taper and more shoulder angle...
B., I gots lotsa .243 brass and all the dies already. Lapua brass is a bonus! Simple neck down with a smaller bushing (.250-1"), and no fireforming necessary.
Since I plan to run the ballz off this sucka, I don't wanna burn barrel life during fireforming. And by the time I need to trim cases due to brass flow, the primer pockets are gonna be toasted anyway... ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Trez, went with a 24" barrel, so I wouldn't realize the marginally extra HP the Middlested would afford without going 26", or better. Too long for me on a Seven...
That's my story & I'm stickin' to it...
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Leonard
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Member # 2
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posted April 23, 2011 07:06 PM
your B argument: First is that I don't fireform with bullets, I do it in the garage with a primer, a small charge of fast powder and a wad of newsprint. Seldom do I need a second firing and no wear and tear on the barrel. Second, if chambered correctly, brass flow into the neck would be marginal, if at all? Third, if you have enlarged primer pockets, you are running a lot more pressure than I would ever consider.
When you use loads that are super hot, throat erosion can be severe inside of 500 rounds and your prime accuracy disappeared within 300, worst case scenario.
Hot hunting loads aren't smart, for several reasons.
I used to think a Model 7 was the cat's ass. I have been hearing some negative chatter for quite a while. I'm not that up on reasons, but a good old 700 is kinda hard to beat.
As far as a necked 22/243, nothing wrong with that, that I can see? But, you know, if you can't get enough performance from 47+ grains of powder without enlarged primer pockets, I don't know what to tell ya?
But, I understand: you are building a dream. Everybody has one. Good luck, El Bee
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31462 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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knockemdown
Our staff photo editing Guru, par excellence
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posted April 23, 2011 08:00 PM
Leonard, if I tried fireforming cases at home, I'd be in handcuffs!
And I got a 'thing' for Sevens. That one will make four, all spec'ed nearly identical. Something to be said for having a familiar 'feel' between them...
Posts: 2202 | From: behind fascist lines | Registered: Mar 2010
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TOM64
Knows what it's all about
Member # 561
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posted April 24, 2011 06:10 AM
Kelly, I usually never got an exit with my 243AI and the 75 V-max, popped eyes and turned insides to mush but never like what you described.
I can see a lazer out to 400 but I'd worry about bullets exploding up close, then Leonard knows how to avoid that too.
I'm just partial to the 75/77 grain weights, never seen a bullet work better. Of course there's lots of bullets and weights that I ain't tried either.
Posts: 2283 | From: okieland | Registered: Feb 2005
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DAA
Utah/Promoted WESTERN REGIONAL Hunt Director
Member # 11
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posted April 24, 2011 08:25 AM
Kelly, about ten years ago, I was testing some .20 caliber, 45 gr. custom made bullets out of a .20BR. Those things hammered coyotes like almost nothing else I have ever seen. Certainly nothing in the "small caliber" world. Had a couple coyotes, that had a couple feet of intestine coming out BOTH ENDS. Had never seen the like before and haven't seen it since. Was absolutely astounded by it the first time it happened. We've all experienced picking up a dead coyote that "sloshed" inside like a half full keg of beer. On the few that had no exit with that bullet, the sloshing was again, like nothing else I've ever personally used. I mean, it not only felt like a half full keg, it SOUNDED like one - you could hear the slosh just carrying them back to the truck. HARD on fur, but man did those things kill!
They were from a custom bullet maker who mostly made them for his own use and never tried going commercial. Shortly after I did that testing, he sold his dies and got out of the hobby entirely, so those bullets never were generally available and not to be found today. I still have a couple hundred of them though, keep meaning to try them in my .20-250 but have not got around to it.
Slow twist vs. fast twist... Like Leonard said, it's all about the bullet(s) you want to shoot. For my purposes, in a calling rifle, I'll take light, fast and flat over heavy with a rainbow trajectory every time. Wind bucking isn't really a consideration, for me, on called coyotes. Flat trajectory is though!
- DAA
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"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted April 24, 2011 11:07 AM
Well, the BIG news, for me is Kelly shooting a coyote with a bolt gun, how retro!
As far as blowing intestines out body orifices, I might have seen it once, on an animal facing away, at a slight angle. Quite a bit of tissue was around the mouth, like a regurgitation, except it wasn't stomach contents.
I'm wondering if this isn't more typical with the "leave the bullet inside" crowd. I get exits, so squirting intestines out the anus seems less likely, Poop, yes, intestines, no.
I have told before about the time I was able to locate a coyote by the shaking of a bush. There he was, tethered to a creosote by at least 15 feet of his own intestine, tugging for all he was worth. (also, "behind the shoulder" as our Oklahoma Spin Doctor likes to say) Others would say, gut shot but, Hey!
DAA, I tend to agree with you on the flat trajectory out to normal shot opportunities, given the fact that visibility beyond 400 is not always possible. I'm not looking to accomplish a circus shot at 600, but anything out to 400 yards is a possibility and if we can eliminate a little guesswork, that's just about "hold on fur" distance. I really think this rig will make my life easier, in front of witnesses....like Shaw.
GH/LB (and Happy Easter, too)
edit: PS the only time I remember a sloshing around, it was a simultaneous discharge. Like a furry balloon, I think if I had punctured a hole in the side, all the contents would have poured out, leaving an empty skin.
[ April 24, 2011, 11:17 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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TOM64
Knows what it's all about
Member # 561
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posted April 24, 2011 04:55 PM
55 grain NBT bullets, standard 243, .276BC and 4000fps is doable.
From what I see, the Middlested pushes the 52 gr bullet at 4020 fps but still the 55NBT's BC is only .267
Thus my gripe with the 1/14 twist.
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Kelly Jackson
SECOND PLACE/GARTH BROOKS LOOK-A-LIKE CONTEST
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posted April 24, 2011 05:13 PM
LB I still have 3-4 bolt guns. I like the AR's but been playing with this 243.
I have worked up loads using 55gr NBT, 58gr Vmax, 68gr Berger and 87gr Vmax. This gun shoots them all the same point of impact at 100 yards.
Have not done it yet, but I bet it will shoot under an inch if I were to shoot a group using one each of the loads listed above. Never had a rifle that I think would do that before. I shot the coyote yesterday with a 58gr Vmax running hard.
All the coyotes I have shot broadside with the 55gr NBT have exited. Shot a small pig about 50-60 pounds and the 55 exited on the pig also.
Tom - I have not been able to get 4000 out of the 55's yet. Been using H4895 cause I still have close to 20 pounds of it.
Dave sounds like that 20 was a butt kicker.
Yall stay after them
Kelly
[ April 24, 2011, 05:52 PM: Message edited by: Kelly Jackson ]
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TOM64
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Member # 561
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posted April 24, 2011 05:33 PM
Kelly, try RL17.
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Kelly Jackson
SECOND PLACE/GARTH BROOKS LOOK-A-LIKE CONTEST
Member # 977
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posted April 24, 2011 05:50 PM
will give it a try with the 55's. that is what I am running with the 87's. Just bought a pound to try out last week.
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trapper2
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Member # 3651
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posted April 24, 2011 05:57 PM
knockemdown, i have the 22-243 in a 1-8 hart, its on a 700 but has the 24 inch barrel, i really like mine, i'm out of room now in the mag so when it falls off i will have to get it rebarreled but as long as i set it right on the lands its a shooting dude, but lot of guys i know are going to a 22-250 in a 1-8 for more barrel life
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nothing is politically correct if its morally wrong
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Kelly Jackson
SECOND PLACE/GARTH BROOKS LOOK-A-LIKE CONTEST
Member # 977
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posted April 24, 2011 06:06 PM
Ryan - dropped you a check in the mail for the kids air gun deal. let me know when I win...lol
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trapper2
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Member # 3651
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posted April 24, 2011 06:39 PM
i dont think you will probably win kelly, i forgot and put my name on the tickets but didnt want to tell you till you sent the money, ha
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nothing is politically correct if its morally wrong
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CrossJ
SECOND PLACE: PAUL RYAN Look-a-like contest
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posted April 24, 2011 07:00 PM
LOL....well atleast your left with a right off K!
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A friend will help you move. A good friend will help you move a body.
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trapper2
Knows what it's all about
Member # 3651
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posted April 24, 2011 07:28 PM
geordie do you need a write off, i can help you out too, i need more tickets if i plan to win that gun safe, ha
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nothing is politically correct if its morally wrong
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted April 25, 2011 11:20 AM
This morning. I ordered a barrel vice and action wrench and a Wilson seating die. The die when I get it will be sent to Colorado, along with a fired case to the guy that built this rifle. He is going to punch it to the correct dimensions. In the meantime, I guess I can switch to the 22-250 Ackley barrel and see what I got, as soon as the tools arrive.
Waiting for the adaptor for the Stoney Point shooting sticks, then I'm going down to US Optics and have them mount the scope and calibrate it.
All this planning is exhausting, maybe I will lay down for a while?
GH/LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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TOM64
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Member # 561
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posted April 25, 2011 05:47 PM
Leonard, how exactly can you better the 22-250AI with the Middlested?
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted April 25, 2011 10:24 PM
Answer: actually, I don't expect to. I have seen the figures, when he fired, 3 shot group size, velocity, and date. Unfortunately, I don't have them with me, I am counting on Mercer forwarding the copies.
Bur, no. My 22-250 outperforms what this Middlested does, but not exactly, considering that my barrel is about 4.5 inches longer. It also weighs 18 pounds and has a McMillan benchrest stock.
And, all his data was using IMR4831 and W760. I am thinking H414 is (at least) worth a try? I don't remember what powder was used with the 40 grain but don't care. I think it was N???.
The part that is curious to me, and maybe it is what you are getting at, is why two barrels in essentially the same performance range? Apparently, the 22/243 holds about four more grains of powder, but in my opinion, that capacity is kinda wasted on 55 grain bullets, there is just so much velocity and after that the law of diminishing returns comes into play. A lot more powder and not very much velocity gain.
On paper, from memory because I don't have the data in front of me; the 22-250AI barrel is an inch longer and has less velocity, but not that much less. It is a slightly lighter contour, as well. The Middlested is sorta heavy.
I would have taken either barrel separately, but couldn't arrive at a deal, which I understand but it don't hurt to ask, The answer was no. But, I can always have one barrel fitted to something else. I don't really feel like doing that, just a thought.
I'm glad I don't have to play the waiting game, these projects always take way too long.
GH/LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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fgf4
unknown comic
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posted April 26, 2011 12:14 AM
Don't keep us guessing Leonard, who is the smith? ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Dan Dowling maybe...???
Nikonut
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