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Author
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Topic: .22-.243 Middlestead?
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Leonard
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posted April 26, 2011 09:48 AM
Very good, niko!
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
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TOM64
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posted April 26, 2011 10:08 AM
I'll never really question the "why's" of any rifle loon but sitting here with a 22-250 that is going to the smith one day, I didn't want to overlook anything.
I think I'll stick with the 22-250AI but in a 1/9 twist, although for 400 and under there ain't an inch difference in all of them.
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Leonard
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posted April 26, 2011 10:36 AM
Well, remember what our learned sage (DAA) said previously, it's all about the bullet and what you intend to accomplish. At these velocity levels, you don't need a nine twist for bullets in the 52/60 grain range, and maybe, like mine, you don't need a fast twist for 65 grain bullets, either? All the rage is for a fast twist and long bullets and a rifle set up like that is almost useless for normal stands, within 400 yards, more or less. I mean, if you want to bust coyotes out yonder, like TA, by all means get a rig set up for that.
But the problem, as I see it, is the bullets available are not real good killers, they are accuracy bullets and can and will zip through a coyote and leave you with a tracking chore unless you happen to judge range and wind exactly.
Now, the way I see it, if you can stabilize a bullet around 190,000RPM or so, do the math. Velocity times the twist, and you have no great need for spinning a bullet twice as fast unless it has 4 or 5 calibers of bearing surface.
And, if economy means anything to you, a fast twist is hard on throat erosion. I hate to lay out money for a premium barrel knowing that I better get my load figured out before my accuracy disappears.
I'm really not a big fan, but to each his own.
GH/LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
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TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Field Marshall, Southern Minneesota Sector
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posted April 26, 2011 02:15 PM
quote:
All the rage is for a fast twist and long bullets and a rifle set up like that is almost useless for normal stands, within 400 yards, more or less. I mean, if you want to bust coyotes out yonder, like TA, by all means get a rig set up for that
I don't use the long heavey bullets in my coyote rifles. I use a med. weight bullet with good accuracy and B.C. and shoot it as fast as I can... As for setting a rig up its the same no matter what distance I'm going to shoot....
The nice thing about a switch barrel is you already have a extra barrel, if one should go bad or you run short on ammo just put the other one on and there is no waiting time..LOL
The 52 gr. sierra or 52 gr. A-max both work well on coyotes and the A-max gives you a little better accuracy at longer distances..
For powders in the ackley or Middlestead look at N-540 or Ram-shot Big game.. Good luck.. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
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Leonard
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posted April 26, 2011 03:25 PM
Welcome to The New Huntmasters, TA
I will look into N540, maybe a couple more?
GH/LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
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knockemdown
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posted April 26, 2011 04:53 PM
quote:
All the rage is for a fast twist and long bullets and a rifle set up like that is almost useless for normal stands, within 400 yards, more or less.
Leonard, I'm honestly at a loss about how a fast twist tube/heavy pills are somehow useless for normal stands?
And please correct me if I'm wrong, but unless I'm all jumbled up from following along here, you've got a slow twist .22-250AI with a ~30" tube in a benchrest stock that weighs 18 lbs?
If so, then how is an quick handling, easy to tote & point (~8.5 lb. scoped), fast twist .22-243 any more useless than a long tube, 18 lb. bench rig on a 'normal' stand?
'Chit, my 7WSM all up is less than 14 lbs, and almost three of those pounds are in the scope/rings. SO I'm definitely lost here and NO disrespect intended...
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Leonard
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posted April 26, 2011 05:52 PM
Yeah, you haven't been following along.
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
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jimanaz
2nd Place RICHARD FARNSWORTH LOOK-A-LIKE CONTEST
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posted April 26, 2011 06:27 PM
Have a bad day Leonard?
That's his night rig Fred, so it doesn't see many, if any, "normal" stands. I have to admit I'm a lil confused at the quoted statement as well. I'm reasonably sure that a heavier pill running ~3300fps will still ruin most coyotes at "normal" distances. Maybe not kill and skin them in one fell swoop, but I don't think there will be much spinning/running?
If we're off base, please enlighten us so that we won't appear challenged in the future.
Edit:
Oh yeah, who the hell is impersonating TA.
[ April 26, 2011, 06:36 PM: Message edited by: jimanaz ]
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted April 26, 2011 06:48 PM
Well, I was alluding to the fact that most people that have a rig dedicated to beyond 600, or so have the elevation dialed in already. That's what I do. A long range gun is a long range gun and doesn't handle as nicely at normal 50/100 yard situations, and they usually weigh at least ten pounds, BTW. So, if you have a bullet with a high B.C. intended for accuracy work, then those bullets may not kill as well, at average ranges. But, anyway, as far as I'm concerned, if you do have an 8 pound gun, and it is, (arguably) a compromise, then I suppose it will suffice for whatever type of encounter you expect to see. I was thinking of a more radical dedicated rifle intended for REAL long range work, maybe Prairie dogs, rock chucks, etc. and of course, you could probably hit a coyote with it, but he might run completely out of sight before he drops.
My 18 pound 22-250AI is actually intended for anything out to 430 yards, or so. My 21 pound 25'06AI is available and dialed in for slightly longer range, if need be. Both of these guns are night rigs, but I wouldn't go so far as to call them long range rifles.
Maybe we aren't talking about the same concept, but say, for instance you have a 20 degree mount and a 24/36X scope and if you cranked the scope all the way, you still may be many inches high, trying to kill a coyote, at 100 yards. That's what I was thinking when I said "useless".
I subscribe to the golf club approach. Why use a seven iron, when you can hit the green with a three wood? And, then again, would you use a 3 wood on a par three? I don't know, maybeit's me that's screwed up?
GH/LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
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Leonard
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posted April 26, 2011 07:55 PM
Fred, I did not mean to sound rude in my previous post. I was just short of time. Maybe I should have waited until I could have given a more lucid response?
Anyway, look, I'm not the last word on any of this tuff. I deprimed 250 22-243 cases this afternoon and got a sore back for my trouble, probably made me rude and ornery.
You know, I am on record for stating that a 22-250 Ackley is all you will ever need in .224". So, here I am with a real hot rod.
I really doubt that I will load this thing to the max, I never do that, so if it does not out perform my other gun, I really could care less. I like safe dependable handloads.
One thing about this barrel is it has a really long leade before contact with the lands. The 55 VMax is seated less than half the length of the neck. For that reason, I may try a longer bullet. I have a box of 62 Bergers on hand, I might try that bullet. I have had very good luck, as far as killing goes, with 62, 64 and 65 grain Bergers, on coyotes.
There is merit in sticking with what was working before I acquired this rifle and that was the 55 VMax, but I really think I could satisfy my curiosity, a little bit.
I'm a little worried about the primer pockets, they were all pretty flat, with fireforming loads. This is why my buddy that used to build rifles would chamber a junk barrel for me using the same reamer and I could fireform a hundred rounds in an hour and not worry about barrel damage.
GH/LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
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TOM64
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posted April 26, 2011 08:16 PM
"All the rage is for a fast twist and long bullets and a rifle set up like that is almost useless for normal stands, within 400 yards, more or less."
I got all confused over this as well. My honest 7# 22" Mountain rifle contoured 243AI worked just fine with 75 V-max's for a calling rifle. The 1/9 twist and M1 elevation turret worked just as well out to the 800 yard gong with 105 a-max's so I've been told.
My 22-250AI will be just like it and run 75 a-max's. My scope will be zeroed at 200 yards with a cheat sheet for the long range stuff. I can still holdover if needed but why?
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Leonard
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posted April 26, 2011 08:38 PM
You guys would appreciate a Nevada night hunt. However, it would be better if you used my gear.
GH/LB
edit: AND QUIT PICKING ON ME!
[ April 26, 2011, 08:58 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
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sparkyibewlocal440
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posted April 26, 2011 10:45 PM
Hello LB
I had my .22-243 Midd. built 6 years ago, as a calling rifle. Killed a lot of Coyotes with it. I suspect it's better that a plain Jane 22-243 because the Midd has a steeper shoulder, thus preventing stretching? Without looking it up, I think it's a 30 degree shoulder. Good looking round.
Most of the time, I use my .20-250. If it's windy or I need Coyotes DRT, the Midd gets the nod, for sure. It flat gets the job done.
Using Lapua brass, 44.2 grains of H4350, with a 24" barrel,1:14 twist, I get 3800 fps with 55 grain Nosler ballistic tips. That's max in my rifle, to the point of just making ejector marks and a tad effort in lifting the bolt. The Noslers shoot flatter than the flat based 55 V-Max. For my application, anything heavier than 55 grain bullets, would defeat the purpose. I keep it 1 1/2" high at 100 yards, it's 2 " low at 300 yards. I can't aim at fur and expect to KILL a Coyote at 400 yards.
I was hoping for more velocity when I built this rig, more like 3900-4000.. Perhaps if tried a different powder like Varget or VV N550 I might pick it up a bit.
Tim, good to see you back!
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TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Field Marshall, Southern Minneesota Sector
Member # 794
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posted April 26, 2011 11:15 PM
Thanks Sparky..
Yes N-550 would be another good powder to try..
The N500 series is designed to fill the case a little more and give you a little more vel. in some of the cartridges its used in when compared to another powder with same burn rate.
For example you have N-140 which is the same burn rate as N-540 and when used in my 17 pred or 22-250 ackley I can get a few more grains of powder in the case and also get more vel.. Would have to look in my loading book for the difference I get in the two....
In Leonards case where he mentioned he dose'nt like to load a cartridge to max. he could use a 500 series powder and load it to the same charge as a simular powder and still keep the vel. but yet be under max charge..
[ April 26, 2011, 11:19 PM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
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What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
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TOM64
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posted April 27, 2011 05:29 AM
Sparky, even at 4300 fps you'd still be almost 9" low at 400 yards given your 250 yard zero.
Turn a turret 2.25 MOA and hold dead on.
You're only 3 MOA away at 3800 fps. Not much difference for that great of a velocity gain and BC means little at 400 yards, given the velocity loss. I guess a 1/14 twist ain't totally useless for a 400 yard gun but from here on out the numbers add up.
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knockemdown
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posted April 27, 2011 06:11 AM
Tim, ya can't get more speed without building more pressure at the same time. There is no such magic powder in the universe that defies the laws of physics to show otherwise...
So...if you are getting 'more speed' from a certain powder, you are building MORE pressure, too.
No way around it.
Obviously, different powders have different burn rates and associated pressure curves, but that's doesn't mean that any one powder can generate more speed with less pressure.
Should add, that % fill does have an affect on pressure. Example:
A powder charge occupies 91% case volume, leaving 9% 'empty space' left.
Test: load two cases with that same 91% fill powder charge, BUT seat a one bullet waaay deep in the case so as to take up some of that 9% 'empty space'. That particular loaded round will develop MORE pressure! Here's why...
That waaay deep seated bullet is now occupying more space inside the case, thus reducing useable case capacity.
Therefore, it will skew that original 91% fill powder charge to a higher percentage. Which, in turn will result in more pressure built from exactly the same amount of powder...
Off on a tangent here, but just sayin' that you CAN screw with pressure to best match a powder to a case, but there isn't any free lunch for making speed without building pressure at the same time...
Leonard, its all good! And I like your 'golf club' analogy. I guess I'm the type that prefers to carry less clubs in the bag, and the ones I do are 'hybrids', of sorts...
And I can definitely see the merits of having a heavy rig for stability and a flat point blank trajectory to help negate the difficulty of range estimating at night.
But, pair a 'hyrid' type rifle with a quality optic that has ooodles of internal travel, and you've got a rig that you CAN zero at 100yds (even with a canted base) and still retain the ability to correct (hold or dial) effectively for a precise long range hit...
The wind call remains 'voodoo logic', but that's where the heavy bullets can help ya, much the same as a flat trajectory provides a crutch for range estimation at closer range...
[ April 27, 2011, 06:15 AM: Message edited by: knockemdown ]
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted April 27, 2011 09:19 AM
Fred, it's not exactly pressure because if it were, it wouldn't matter about pressure curves and matching a suitable powder with a suitable burning rate, for a given volume and a specific bullet weight. There are powders that offer enhanced performance.
I have my third 25'06Ackley. In an example, I used 100 grain bullets as a universal load and found that the best velocities I could get were with H4831 and W760. In this third barrel, I started using R22 right away, along with some archived loads. The difference was almost 300 FPS gain, and this was with observing all apparent pressure signs. Supposedly max loads, slightly flattened and slightly cratered primers and case head expansion, etc. All things being equal. It's all about finding a certain celestial alignment between bullet, case, primer, powder quantity and barrel length.
Just a quick comment about turrets and dialing the "correct" number of clicks based on shaky range estimates. If you have the time for this stuff, great, but I am usually dealing with a second or third animal that is not going to wait, if he ever does stop, for me to calibrate the exact zero enabling me to punch his lights out. Let's say I get one chance, if I'm lucky while I'm tracking him in the scope. Whatever.
Gary, the best Middlested numbers I have from the previous owners records shows 3940fps with a 55 VMax and a compressed load of IMR4831. 26" barrel. This guy was a moly affectionado. I don't do moly. Rifle has not been fired since January, 2002. Maybe I can squeeze a little more velocity, we shall see?
GH/LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Field Marshall, Southern Minneesota Sector
Member # 794
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posted April 27, 2011 09:58 AM
Here is some info on The 500 series powder I got from there reloading manual;
quote:
N500 series
Adding nitroglycerol to the traditional single base
powder makes possible in addition to geometry and
coating a third controlled variable of ballistic properties:
energy content. Vihtavuori calls powders which
have nitroglycerol added (maximum 25 %) high energy
NC-powders, which form N500 series.
The composition of a typical high energy powder is as
follows:
* nitrocellulose * nitroglycerol
* coating agent * stabilizer
* flame reducing agent * wear reducing agent
Geometrically the powders in the N500 series are
equal to the N100 series. Although these new powders
have a higher energy content, they do not cause
greater wear to the gun. This is because the surface of
the powder has been treated with an agent designed to
reduce barrel wear.
N500 series powders work well at different temperatures,
even better than the traditional N100 and N300
series. Temperature sensitivity naturally depends very
much on the weapon and on the cartridge. The
manufacturing technique employed permits a very
high bulk density, which in turn makes it possible to
use a bigger charge in a certain limited loading volume.
22-250 ackley; 52 gr. A-max .30 off of lands, fed 210 primer.
N-140/37.1 Vel. 3800 fps.
N-540/40.0 Vel. 3926 fps. Caution both loads at Max for my rifle....
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What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
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TOM64
Knows what it's all about
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posted April 27, 2011 10:26 AM
Tim, it's post's like that that keep me from sending this 22-250 for a new tube.
My 250 wears a 22" barrel and with 38 grs of RL15 I get 3833 fps average with the 50 gr NBT's. Given a longer barrel I'm sure it would get close to your max load with VV.
Book load, primers are fine and all that.
Groups shot comparing IMR4895, RL-15 and what the 1/14 twist does with a 60 gr V-max.
Remember this is a Remington Mountain rifle shooting 5 shot groups back to back before you go picking on my groups.
[ April 27, 2011, 10:28 AM: Message edited by: TOM64 ]
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knockemdown
Our staff photo editing Guru, par excellence
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posted April 27, 2011 10:39 AM
quote:
It's all about finding a certain celestial alignment between bullet, case, primer, powder quantity and barrel length.
I agree 100%, Leonard.
Too fast a powder and it'll prematurely spike pressure. Too slow a powder and you're leaving fps on the table. Ideally, you want a darn near full case with darn near a full burn in your alotted barrel length, that's a given...
But, I'll maintain that you can't get more speed from the same rifle/bullet from a different powder without generating more pressure at the same time. Energy is energy. So somebody, somehwere, somehow, gotsta pay the piper for those extra fps's on the chrony. And that somebody is case pressure...
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furhvstr
Knows what it's all about
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posted April 27, 2011 10:53 AM
Hey LB. I will get those copies of the range records in the mail today.
My favorite load for my middlestead (Dowling built 1-14 twist 26 inch hart barrel) is 49g H414 and a 50g bal tip- 4251fps. super accurate and fast. Have won some money over the years with that gun.
Switch barrels make sense when you spend the kind of time that the guy who had LB's new gun built did at the range. He really enjoyed working up loads and experimenting. He had or at some time in is life had one or two of just about any caliber you can think of. It was not uncommon for him to have a gun built and it be a year or more before it ever made it to the range. When you think about it most of the money is in the stock, action and scope so why not a switch barrel?
ML
[ April 28, 2011, 02:21 PM: Message edited by: furhvstr ]
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TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Field Marshall, Southern Minneesota Sector
Member # 794
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posted April 27, 2011 12:01 PM
quote:
Tim, it's post's like that that keep me from sending this 22-250 for a new tube.
My 250 wears a 22" barrel and with 38 grs of RL15 I get 3833 fps average with the 50 gr NBT's. Given a longer barrel I'm sure it would get close to your max load with VV.
Tom the 52 gr. A-max has a longer bearing surface than youre 50 gr. and also longer than the 52 gr. Sierra. A 52 gr. Sierra will do 4000 fps with a charge of 39.4 of N-540...
By looking at my loads for my 22-250 a 52 gr. bullet will only do about 3750 fps at max load..
The 52 gr. Sierra will shoot faster in my ackley but dose'nt do as well down range as the A-max does.. Any way try some 52 gr. A-max's in youre 22-250 and let me know how fast they go...
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What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted April 27, 2011 01:12 PM
Jimanez; (my name Jose Jimanez)
First off, I would get away from 50 grain bullets for coyotes, were I you. Second, it's possible that your twist in that 22" barrel length, at whatever velocity just can't stabilize a 60 grain bullet? 55 grain bullets are the logical choice, it seems to me? But, I thought you said before that your velocities were estimates? If nothing else, and your yield is a disappointment, at least with an Improved case, you don't have to deal with neck trimming. However, with the increase in capacity, you should be able to drive a heavier bullet at higher velocity than what you are getting out of 50 grain bullets, especially if you decide on a longer barrel.
Fred, to take your argument to a ridiculous length, fill the case with a double base powder and a heavy bullet, if "pressure" alone is what produces velocity. I'm not even sure what your point is, but finding the correct powder, based on burn rate is what we try to do. The fly in the ointment, for me has always been IMR4895, doesn't fill the case, doesn't produce the absolutely highest velocities, but seems to always be an accurate powder.
Mercer, I have always used 44.0 gr.of H414 in my 22-250Ackley behind a 65 grain bullet and I settle for 3925fps. My 55 grain numbers were closer to 4400, as I recall but I was smoking bullets down range and that's when I went to a heavier bullet. I understand the rationale' behind a switch barrel, but I think the better choice would have been a high performance chambering and an accuracy number like 22BR? The velocities between the 22-250AI and the Middlested are really close and all things being equal, the better accuracy would be the one I would choose.
But, I really would appreciate that data, when you have a chance.
GH/LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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TOM64
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posted April 27, 2011 01:12 PM
I was thinking the A-max had a shorter bearing surface. I'll pick some up and see what I get. Course it'll be a while, I sent the scope off for an M1 knob this morning.
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted April 27, 2011 01:17 PM
ALERT!
More controversy coming!
I don't like target turrets on my (daylight stand) calling rifle.
GH/LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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