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Topic: Interesting read on open carry..Philly
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CrossJ
SECOND PLACE: PAUL RYAN Look-a-like contest
Member # 884
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posted May 17, 2011 08:49 AM
I would wager they will keep their badges.
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A friend will help you move. A good friend will help you move a body.
Posts: 1025 | From: on a water tower | Registered: Jul 2006
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted May 17, 2011 10:33 AM
That's scary. And, it is part of the reason why I may never lift a finger to assist, in time of need. Exactly the type of personality that should be screened and weeded out of law enforcement.
gh/lb
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32368 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Kokopelli
SENIOR DISCOUNT & Dispenser of Sage Advice
Member # 633
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posted May 17, 2011 10:41 AM
Those officers should spend some time here in Arizona. Here in Safford people carry on their way to church.
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And lo, the Light of the Trump shown upon the Darkness and the Darkness could not comprehend it.
Posts: 8235 | From: Under a wandering star | Registered: Apr 2005
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4949shooter
SECOND PLACE HIGGINS (MAGNUM P.I.) LOOK A LIKE CONTEST
Member # 3530
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posted May 17, 2011 01:07 PM
Koko makes an excellent point. Open carry is common in Arizona. I saw it myself in a McDonalds when I was out there on one of my trips.
Open carry is not common in Philadelphia, hence the problem that Fiorino brought upon himself. This is the crux of the problem, along with inadequate training of the police officers. If open carry is legal in Philly, then the Philly cops should have been made aware of such by their department.
Before you guys jump all over my shit, realize that the cops were not aware of the open carry law. They handled the situation as a "man with gun" call. They obviously didn't know any better, but they probably don't hang out on hunting and handgun forums like some of us do.
I wasn't present, thus I won't comment on the way they handled the situation.
Posts: 2274 | From: New Jersey | Registered: Dec 2009
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CrossJ
SECOND PLACE: PAUL RYAN Look-a-like contest
Member # 884
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posted May 17, 2011 02:05 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-vUYeJXSrA
I listened to the audio on youtube. Sounds to me like the first officer was being fairly reasonable. It was hard to find the proffesionalism between all the f bombs from the following officers though.
The part I liked was when the one cop says he(open carry guy) wouldn't show his hands, and all the others jumped the band wagon and went along with his story. Fuckin' cops!!!(said with the utmost professionalism)
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A friend will help you move. A good friend will help you move a body.
Posts: 1025 | From: on a water tower | Registered: Jul 2006
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Rich
2,000th post PAKMAN
Member # 112
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posted May 17, 2011 02:47 PM
Although it turned out bad for both the Police and the poor guy who was legally carrying a gun, I can see how easily this can happen. The carry law had recently changed, and the Policeman who stopped the guy was not aware of the new law. We have a new carry law here in Iowa also. I have a permit to carry, but I have been retired for so long that most of the local Policemen don't know me. I carry my .45 concealed because it doesn't make anyone nervous that way.
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If you call the coyotes in close, you won't NEED a high dollar range finder.
Posts: 2854 | From: Iowa | Registered: Feb 2003
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted May 17, 2011 02:52 PM
"If open carry is legal in Philly, then the Philly cops should have been made aware of such by their department."
Sorry to pick on this, Nick, but if I was that guy, I'd find me a lawyer with a big hard on for the Philly PD, own the place when the dust clears, make sure that if they even feign an attempt to defend their actions by stating that they were unaware that open carry was legal in their city, remind them just as they have very likely reminded those they've abused in the past that IGNORANCE OF THE LAW IS NO EXCUSE.
Especially when you ARE the law.
I'd go after a huge sum of money for violating my rights, then offer to settle out half the amount in exchange for the immediate dismissal of every one of those clowns. There is NO excuse for any LEO to use that kind of language in uniform. Those officers contributed exponentially more to the volatility of that situation than the gun owner did and they need to be offered up as examples of how NOT to do your job.
Philly PD is truly a discredit to the profession as a result of this incident.
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5440 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
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4949shooter
SECOND PLACE HIGGINS (MAGNUM P.I.) LOOK A LIKE CONTEST
Member # 3530
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posted May 17, 2011 05:02 PM
Lance I can understand your position, ignorance is not an excuse. However, ignorance IS a fact. It happens all the time in LE, they change the rules and it takes time for everyone to become aware of it. I personally wasn't aware this was a new law in Philadelphia (or PA?), a fact which Rich enlightened me of.
I don't disagree there will be a lawsuit, and I don't disagree the city of Philadelphia will pay out.
Edit: I just listened to CrossJ's link. This kid obviously had an axe to grind. He should have just listened to the officers' commands and the whole thing could have been straightened out later. Instead, he chose to challenge the officers, and tried to control the encounter. That's a big mistake. The officers see a weapon, they have every right to make the scene safe prior to sorting out the legalities of the situation. This was Philly, not Phoenix.
Other than that, there will be grounds for an attitude and demeanor complaint.
[ May 17, 2011, 05:43 PM: Message edited by: 4949shooter ]
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted May 17, 2011 07:22 PM
Can't say that I disagree, but the young man was very civil in his attempts to not ratchet the situation up any further. Again, the officers are the ones who took matters out of control.
Having said that, age and experience taught me a long time ago that you pick and choose your battles wisely. You can either argue with authority and deal with the issue and its consequences for hours, days, or the rest of your life, or you can just humor authority and the matter is resolved in minutes or less and you can go on about your business. Unfortunately, youth and a lack of life experience often leads young men (and more commonly, young women) to let their tempers and stubbornness get in the way of good old fashioned common sense. That, and being totally unaware that somewhere behind one of those badges is a digital recorder documenting the exchange.
But, a word of advice... civilians can carry concealed recorders, too. And from my own personal experience, they come in very handy. LOL
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5440 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
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DanS
Scorched Earth (AZ Sector)
Member # 316
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posted May 17, 2011 07:28 PM
If he was not breaking the law, why is this "bringing it on himself" to plainly exercise his rights?
Be it Philly or Timbucktoo. If it's legal, where's the problem. I'm a little surprised the the Sgt didn't know the law, being a supervisor and all.
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futuaris nisi irrisus ridebis
Saepe Expertus, Semper Fidelis, Fratres Aeterni:
Often Tested, Always Faithful. Brothers Forever!
Posts: 1482 | From: flyover country | Registered: Feb 2004
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DanS
Scorched Earth (AZ Sector)
Member # 316
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posted May 17, 2011 07:35 PM
Lance,
You brought up digital recorders. Wasn't there a guy out east that got busted for recording an LEO. I believe he was on a Motorcycle and the cop was in his personal vehicle. Seems to me there was an arrest for illegal recording, something about both parties not giving permission.
I don't remember all the details and won't pretend to know the laws, being that's not my occupation.
Maybe 4949 remembers this incident, I believe it was Jersey or such.
youtube link
[ May 17, 2011, 07:45 PM: Message edited by: DanS ]
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futuaris nisi irrisus ridebis
Saepe Expertus, Semper Fidelis, Fratres Aeterni:
Often Tested, Always Faithful. Brothers Forever!
Posts: 1482 | From: flyover country | Registered: Feb 2004
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted May 17, 2011 08:10 PM
Not familiar with that one, but in KS, every LEO carries a digital recorder in his/ her pocket, and I never saw them ask for permission from the poor bastard who was guilty until proven innocent.
The more I think about it, this Sgt. needs some retraining. Again, ignorance is no defense on his part. It's HIS JOB to know about changes in the law. Either he dropped the ball on that, or his department did and ended up sending their people into a civil action.
I'm expected to know changes in federal policies and laws that impact my job after the one time my bosses provide us with notice about the changes. It isn't like PA or Philly changed that law overnight. Those changes take weeks or months to take effect. Maybe the guy was too busy dropping F-bombs to pay attention in continuing education class? Again, no excuses. Just unprofessional.
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5440 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
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JD
HONORARY OKIE .... and Tim's at fault!
Member # 768
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posted May 17, 2011 08:43 PM
Fuck that 49!!! You know gawdamned well if a citizen addressed an officer with that sort of language they would be arrested for some imaginary crime, forget ignorance, cops in general are out of control, I dont give a fuck if they treated it like "man with gun" they flat out LIED, you know, when cops don't want to get in trouble so they change a few facts....like the fuckhead that pulled up 2 minutes later and announced that he wouldn't show his hands and wouldn't get down or the original officer that you can hear on the radio saying that the guy wouldn't cooperate and was argueing when you can clearly tell from the audio that those things aren't true.....if the job is too much for you then take up baby sitting. I don't need cops to protect me but I do need protection from the cops.
And since when is it a fucking crime to speak in a level headed and calm manner and since when is it ok to yell SHUT THE FUCK UP!!! to a citizen who calmly asked if he was under arrest?
You can defend that bullshit on your copper forum but that shit wont fly in the real world!!
I take back what I said about not needing cops.....traffic control is a must.....but absolutely no badges, guns or hand cuffs!!
And where the fuck did you get the idea that this kid had an axe to grind....are we listening to the same audio......he was never a smartass, never raised his voice, never was he beligerant in the audio at all....very calm and cooperative in contrast to the methed up cops screaming profanities and telling him to shut the fuck up every time he tried to answer one of their questions.
THIS is why people are sick to death of smartasses with a badge and not only that.....take a look at how you defend these fucking morons even AFTER you heard the audio and read the story. Now he's being harrassed because of the audio.......what a surprise.
Sorry coppers but this shit don't fly anywhere but on the copper boards, nobody else is buying.
I'm sure most cops are good ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif) but dont defend this sort of shit.
[ May 17, 2011, 08:52 PM: Message edited by: JD ]
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Jason
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What do Obama & TA17Rem have in common........both are clueless asshats!!!
Posts: 1456 | From: NE. | Registered: Dec 2005
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nd coyote killer
HUNTMASTER PRO STAFF
Member # 40
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posted May 17, 2011 08:45 PM
4949 if i was you i would be screaming at the top of my lungs to have those guys badges. That is the kind of abuse of authority and unprofessionalism that give cops a bad name.
I believe someone just hit the lotto. The DA can try to charge him with rape for all i care if he wants but nothing is going to stick and cover up just how bad that actually was.
Seriously it's now illegal to record yourself walking down the street?? how funny was that!!!LOL
"He's recording it....thats illegal too" WTF!!!
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"Sure are cocky for a starving pilgrim" - Bear Claw
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George Ackley
Knows what it's all about
Member # 898
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posted May 17, 2011 09:02 PM
yes, don't ever challenge authority.
Posts: 465 | From: PHILA . PA | Registered: Jul 2006
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JD
HONORARY OKIE .... and Tim's at fault!
Member # 768
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posted May 17, 2011 09:07 PM
That shit might fly in a communist country George but gawdammit we aint commies!! Close, but not yet.
We have the right to challenge any fucking thing we want to.....unless a cop decides we shouldn't.
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Jason
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What do Obama & TA17Rem have in common........both are clueless asshats!!!
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted May 17, 2011 10:02 PM
I seem to remember that it is illegal to record anybody....in Maryland, I believe?
But look, out here a holstered handgun does not constitute a threat. Furthermore, since they officially agreed that it's legal in Philadelphia, there is no excuse for these morons not being aware of it. I mean why do they sell holsters, in that city and that state? To wear around the house? I'm kinda shocked that open carry is such a BFD, in that state and that city. I would think that little factoid would be big news down at the donut shop?
Out here, cops don't use that kind of language, either.
49, it's understandable to stick up for the brotherhood, but how did you arrive at the opinion that the citizen had an attitude? He seemed to be the calmest and in control of anybody involved, and that's totally backward. Those professionals need a little reeducation in proper command presence. <sheesh>
gh/lb
edit: did I hear that right? Don't ever challenge authority? It's our duty to challenge authority, Amigo.
[ May 17, 2011, 10:03 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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knockemdown
Our staff photo editing Guru, par excellence
Member # 3588
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posted May 18, 2011 05:40 AM
Power corrupts.
Absolute power corrupts, absolutely.
That was an utterly despicable display of authority gone waaaaay over the edge.
To protect & serve? MY ass!
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TOM64
Knows what it's all about
Member # 561
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posted May 18, 2011 05:47 AM
![[Cool]](cool.gif)
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Patterson
19.6 miles down the Yellow Brick Road from THE EMERALD CITY
Member # 3304
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posted May 18, 2011 06:51 AM
quote:
It happens all the time in LE, they change the rules and it takes time for everyone to become aware of it.
Wow, wish we non LE could use that excuse too!
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4949shooter
SECOND PLACE HIGGINS (MAGNUM P.I.) LOOK A LIKE CONTEST
Member # 3530
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posted May 18, 2011 01:27 PM
Wow guys, I was trying to shed a little light on the situation. Maybe because I have been dealing with the public professionally for the past 22.5 years, I have a different perspective than some of you? Don't forget, all motor vehicle stops, motor vehicle accidents, motorist aids, and pedestrian contacts are recorded by my agency. A big part of my job as a supervisor is to critique these encounters. Like I said, I might have a little more experience and understanding than most of the membership here. If I can "bridge the gap" at least a little bit, perhaps we can find some commom ground. Not all cops are bad. But all cops can be nasty if you put them/us in the right (or wrong) frame of mind.
Lets discuss this incident a little bit. If this were Phoenix and not Philly, a guy walking around with a gun on his hip would be no big deal. It's done every day, and has been done for decades, maybe even for over a century. People (remember cops are people) are accostomed to seeing open carry in Phoenix. In Philly, I don't know when the rules changed, but according to Rich they did so fairly recently. I know for a fact it takes my agency, which is directly overseen but the State Attorney General's Office, to implement changes in law and case law into our SOP. You see, the new policy has to be examined by attornies, written up into policy, and disseminated to the troops. This does NOT happen overnight. You guys may not like it, but it is a fact.
Now...being that "open carry" is obviously not a common thing in Philly, people (including cops again) react differently than they would in Phoenix. The cops perceive a potential threat, react as they are trained, and attempt to put junior on his knees in a compromising position, so that they can disarm him without incident. In this way, junior gets disarmed, the whole thing gets sorted out, junior gets sent on his way, and the Philly cops learn something from the whole ordeal (maybe even junior learns something). However junior, in his all high and mightiness, decides not to listen to the Philly guys, and tries to control the encounter. WRONG. Basic police policy 101, WE control the encounter, and we LIVE to see the end of our shift. That's how it is. Again, I am sorry if you guys don't like it. But if I stop you out on the highway, and we have an issue, I can GUARANTEE you I will control that motor vehicle stop. I have NEVER lost control of any stop or encounter in my 22.5 years as a police officer, and I don't intend to start now. I really don't care if some immature 25 year old has something to prove with a gun on his hip. He knowingly put himself in that position. So...listen to my commands, let's sort it out, and we will take it from there. Don't listen to my commands, and prepare to eat some pavement. There is no way in hell I will let someone else control my encounter. It ain't happenin folks.
Did the Philly guys make some mistakes? Sure they did. If I were reviewing there stop, I would be having a talk with most of them. There are attitude and demeanor issues I mentioned earlier. There are training issues from what I can tell.
Would I have handled this encounter the same way? I can't tell for sure, not having been present. But I can tell you this much...I was brought up around guns and they don't scare me like they do other cops. I have dealt with guns on stops, and on people for over two decades. I once had an incident on the NJ Turnpike years ago involving a guy with a gun on him. My supervisor flatly told me he was surprised I didn't shoot the guy. But, I knew I didn't have to, at least I knew it didn't get to that point. I grabbed the gun, which was in the guy's hand, disarming him and preventing him from HAVING to be shot. I could have shot though. And I would have been justified in doing so. I guess my point is, I think my expereiences could have influenced the incident in question, perhaps with a result that would have been more amenable to both sides. But again, I wasn't present, and as such I don't like to throw stones.
This all reminds me of one weekend I was working dayshift out on RT 80 near Pennsylvania. I think George knows the area. I was the shift supervisor, and was in the station doing my admin as usual. One of my guys calls me from the highway, and tell me he pulled up behind a motorist aid, and the guy changing his tire was wearing a gun in a holster, and hadn't identified himself as a police officer. They asked me how they should handle the situation. Well guess what? Nobody open carries in NJ. For all I knew this guy could have been a hit man straight from the "Iceman" files. I told my guy to wait for backup and then to utilize high risk stop techniques. Well, my guy (a friend of mine but he still won't refer to me by my first name)happens to be a Marine. When His backup arrived, they took the high risk stop concept to the extreme and took this guy down at shotgun point. In the end, the dude listened to commands, and nobody got hurt. I will say one thing though, I wouldn't want to be on the business end of a shotgun with Steven behind the trigger. That could have gotten ugly real quick. My point with this story? Again, open carry is not a frequent occurence here, and will elicit a different response from people (including cops) than it will elsewhere in the country. New Jersey ain't Arizona folks.
Your hero Fiorino set out to prove a point with open carry in a place that isn't used to it. If that's his "thing" then great. But if he is gonna play smart guy and not listen to commands, he is gonna piss off the local LEO, which he did. I have no sympathy for him.
So the Philly cops dropped some F bombs and called the guy some names. Yes it's wrong and should be dealt with administratively. As for allegations of lying, or deception on the cops' part? That is quite subjective without having a video tape to look at. The cops will have to falsify reports, or perjure themselves in court before they will lose their badges over this, assuming it is even true.
That's my take on this whole incident.
Fire away!
Posts: 2274 | From: New Jersey | Registered: Dec 2009
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4949shooter
SECOND PLACE HIGGINS (MAGNUM P.I.) LOOK A LIKE CONTEST
Member # 3530
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posted May 18, 2011 01:35 PM
Oh...Dans, I don't recall that incident, though the guy does look familiar.
Posts: 2274 | From: New Jersey | Registered: Dec 2009
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George Ackley
Knows what it's all about
Member # 898
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posted May 18, 2011 01:50 PM
I am all for open carry if thats the way you like to carry.
to me your just the first guy the bad guy going to target if you find your self in a situation .
[ May 18, 2011, 01:51 PM: Message edited by: George Ackley ]
Posts: 465 | From: PHILA . PA | Registered: Jul 2006
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted May 18, 2011 01:52 PM
So, a guy with a holstered handgun, changing a friggin' tire on the friggin' turnpike gets the " high risk stop concept to the extreme", with a shotgun, held by a nervous cop with an itchy trigger finger?
Anyway, what would be wrong with the cop approaching the kid with the holstered gun and asking a couple matter of fact questions? I'm sorry, I just don't see why a Pennsylvania or New Jersey cop gets all hot and bothered by an openly displayed firearm? In this country, it is a whole lot better situation to see an innocent and unconcerned citizen with a nonthreatening, holstered handgun than one that is concealed.
Holy shit, I am never stepping foot in that state, I wouldn't survive...and I would be a little more lippy than the young man with the imaginary "attitude".
gh/lb
edit: and that is a very valid consideration, George. But, again, open carry is supposed to be a favor towards law enforcement, not perceived as a threat.
[ May 18, 2011, 01:54 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32368 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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