|
Author
|
Topic: long range precision
|
Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
|
posted June 10, 2011 11:11 AM
Here's what I'm wondering, after visiting U.S. Optics, yesterday.
Many military and SWAT customers and a sprinkling of civilians, some of which was told, are retired military.
There guys apparently cough up some serious cash and they say a good percentage of it is from personal funds. In fact, I peeked at a few invoices being held down by scopes on shelves and they were addressed to individuals.
Okay, so apparently they do 3,000 a month, I think is what I heard?
Anyway, my question. You have military personnel scheduled for mideast. I would think that nobody invests that much money unless they also handload. Are these guys handloading in the desert, or do they probably stock up ahead of time?
The idea of troops working up loads, as I do seems a bit unlikely, in the sand box, but must be happening?
Maybe they use issue stuff? I really don't know, but I wonder? Packing presses and dies and scales and components?
Just something I never thought of?
gh/lb
--------------------
EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32361 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Southern Minneesota Know it all
Member # 794
|
posted June 10, 2011 11:32 AM
If I remember correctly our troops have to use military issued ammo which has to meet certain guidelines under the Ganevia convention. No h.p. or splitter rounds and so on.
--------------------
What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
Posts: 5613 | From: S.D. | Registered: Jan 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
|
posted June 10, 2011 12:39 PM
I wonder how close they adhere to Geneva. I mean, shit. 50BMG never was meant for personnel anyway. Why worry about a technicality? Do they sell accuracy bullets in that caliber, FMJ or otherwise?
I certainly am not advocating blowing an insurgent's head off with anything but legal gear. Why, that would be uncivilized!
gh/lb
--------------------
EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32361 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Rich
2,000th post PAKMAN
Member # 112
|
posted June 10, 2011 01:09 PM
I really doubt that a soldier would use his own personal rifle while in the battle field. It seems more than likely that he plans to build a good rifle for off duty purposes.
--------------------
If you call the coyotes in close, you won't NEED a high dollar range finder.
Posts: 2854 | From: Iowa | Registered: Feb 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Southern Minneesota Know it all
Member # 794
|
posted June 10, 2011 01:26 PM
While I was in the Gov. followed the rules pretty close. I new of a few guys that carried a few store bought rounds in there pockets for shooting ground squirrels that set off ground and motion sensors which they found out the hard way was a no-no..
The 50 cal. round has a full metal jacket bullet. Full metal jacket bullets canbe pretty accurate but don't do so well for killing coyotes and the same canbe said for humans..
I'm sure you heard the saying wound one soldier and it takes two to haul him off the battle field...
Edit to add; Rich the use of youre own rifle also is not allowed.. About the only thing you could carry for personnel weapons was a knife, but it has to be approved by the comp or base commander.
[ June 10, 2011, 01:29 PM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
--------------------
What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
Posts: 5613 | From: S.D. | Registered: Jan 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
|
posted June 10, 2011 01:30 PM
Yeah, but we aren't there to wound ragheads, are we?
--------------------
EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32361 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
TOM64
Knows what it's all about
Member # 561
|
posted June 10, 2011 01:30 PM
The Hauge treaty was where "bullets designed for wounding or mass destruction" (or to that effect) was formed but we (US) weren't even there much less signed it. We do however follow it, though it is only binding against signing members nations.
http://avalon.law.yale.edu/19th_century/dec99-03.asp
Now we all know FMJ ammo is standard issue but they also issue BTHP ammo such as MK262 which features a 77gr SMK for the SPR, DMR type riflemen. As well as the 308, which uses 175 gr SMK bullets.
The hollow point isn't there to increase expansion but to aid in accuracy and is now refferred to as Open Tip Match ammo. Thus making it legal.
As for regular GI's loading or using their own weapons, it ain't happening. They can and do however supply sighting equipment on their own dime. Rifles and ammo are strictly gov issue.
Now we do have a great number of "private contrators" serving over there. They work for private companies like Blackwater providing security and such but even they have guidelines as to what they can use and do. Some of the companies use junk guns and ammo, some will spring for a $7000 scope on a 50 Barrett. One guy I know of spent his time over there repairing Bushmaster M4 type weapons, while another I know of had a good supply of KAC guns and parts.
But regular GI's take what is issued for the most part.
[ June 11, 2011, 06:23 AM: Message edited by: TOM64 ]
Posts: 2283 | From: okieland | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
jimanaz
2nd Place RICHARD FARNSWORTH LOOK-A-LIKE CONTEST
Member # 3689
|
posted June 10, 2011 02:20 PM
I don't know this to be gospel, but I think I saw or read somewhere (might have just dreamt it) but I believe snipers have a pretty close relationship with armorers who do their loading. They do develop loads and the guy who runs the press sees that they don't run short of whatever the specific teams likes to shoot.
Pretty sure the armorers are stateside, but that may be incorrect too.
Pretty useless info, huh?
Posts: 940 | From: AZ | Registered: Oct 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
|
posted June 10, 2011 02:32 PM
Yes, but I know I have seen film of armorer rooms and they had all that stuff, Dillons, and what I have, which I don't remember the RCBS model # but it will handle 50BMG dies.
Maybe they can only use handloads in matches?
gh/lb
--------------------
EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32361 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
jimanaz
2nd Place RICHARD FARNSWORTH LOOK-A-LIKE CONTEST
Member # 3689
|
posted June 10, 2011 02:39 PM
It was my understanding that shipping was included with the never ending supply.
Or am I not following?
edit:
Maybe I get it now...pretty sure snipers use all handloads, all the time.
[ June 10, 2011, 02:42 PM: Message edited by: jimanaz ]
Posts: 940 | From: AZ | Registered: Oct 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
TOM64
Knows what it's all about
Member # 561
|
posted June 10, 2011 03:40 PM
I'm certainly no expert on the subject but you can follow the paper trail easy snough. The designation number is M118 for the old 308 sniper load and was Special ball it was a 173gr bullet. The 175gr SMK is now loaded with RL15 probably from Lake City Arsenal.
Now that the 300WM has replaced the 308 it will still probably be loaded in an arsenal, not on a Dillon.
The AMU does load and work on special loads, as does Crane who is where most of the new ideas come from.
Black Hills does make the MK262 ammo and ships it overseas but there is no armorer cranking a Dillon for a sniper team in hadjiland.
I'll try to dig up some links when I get time.
http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/AMM701-1.html
it does say handloaded...
[ June 10, 2011, 03:58 PM: Message edited by: TOM64 ]
Posts: 2283 | From: okieland | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
|
posted June 10, 2011 04:30 PM
Wow, I sure could use ammo that I can hit a coke can at 700 yards.
Tom, I am not exactly disagreeing with you but I know that I have seen shows on TV at one time or another in which they had something like the Army or Marine Corps rifle team or some such? And, they were set up to handload everything. Now, if they do that for matches, why wouldn't they handload for social work?
For that matter, do police departments handload for SWAT? Probably not, huh? Almost all police don't know squat about handloading and ballistics?
Could our panel check in please? Seems like Del is a refuge from the dark side where you will be vilified if you don't shoot 17 caliber, but that could mean factory 17 Remington?
49, handload?
dogboy, handload?
Del, handload?
Lungbuster, handload?
Cronk, handload?
I get a little bit tunnel vision because I tend to think all coyote hunters, predator hunters in general, they all handload. Am I wrong to think so? Seems like the vast majority would handload?
Might be easier to ask, WHO DOESN'T HANDLOAD?
gh/lb
--------------------
EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32361 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
TOM64
Knows what it's all about
Member # 561
|
posted June 10, 2011 07:08 PM
Leonard, I've never been there to prove or disprove it but I do read alot of that kind of stuff and have never heard of anyone using anything but LC 308 or Black Hills 223/77gr besides the issue LC M855.
Posts: 2283 | From: okieland | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Cayotaytalker
DOES NOT TEACH/SUSPECTED OKIE
Member # 1954
|
posted June 10, 2011 07:15 PM
LB,I do not load but would like to start.I keep holding out until we get a republican in the white house,thinking that the price of materials would go down.
But I think that idea is not much more than a fantasy.
The brand I use works very well for me.I shoot a .223 and use 55gr and 62gr hollow points ammo. The ammo I use shoots well out to 300 yards.I use a savage varmint rifle with a supper snipper scope 40x20 power. The worst scope a person could ever buy for coyotes or predator calling period. All though it is a good scope and has been bulletproof and holds zero.My rifle is stock but does have a nice trigger and a guy wants to have it pointing down range when he takes the safety off.And it is a bolt.In Spite of my scope being over kill or not suited for coyotes this rifle has never let me down.Guess I should just say that this scope has a narrow field of view for coyotes.
--------------------
Now thats prime coyote country!
Posts: 403 | From: LasVegas Nevada | Registered: Oct 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
|
posted June 10, 2011 08:18 PM
"One guy I know of spent his time over there repairing Bushmaster M4 type weapons"
Seeings as how I have made it my mission in life to tell of my experience with Bushmaster every chance I get, this is a comment I can stand behind from personal experience. Just talking with my neighbor the other day about my POS Bushy that has been at the factory for four of the six months I have owned it and is still on "parts hold" because it's a POS and they can't seem to get it to shoot the minimum 2 MOA that I've asked for, but that's a whole 'nother stump to stand on. I do recall Kyle making mention that there are some guys there who have AR systems of their own which are different than what the DoD supplies, because one of his buddies over there sold his weapon to another buddy who had just arrived in Iraq. I believe that they have to be approved and must be mil-spec, but they do exist. He also said, after I told him of the adventure I was having with Bushmaster and Remington Arms over that POS I mentioned earlier that Bushy had not even come close to getting the contract for new M4's because they were, well, a POS, for lack of a better adjective. BTW, did you ever notice that BM is used as an acronym for Bushmaster? How appropriate. Just saying.....
--------------------
I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5440 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Ken
will be missed
Member # 3065
|
posted June 10, 2011 08:49 PM
Leonard I hand load, have been for 40 years. Worked for Sierra bullet for 3 years back in the 80's. My friend of 50 years worked downstairs with Jim Hull in the ballistics lab for 8 years.
ALL MILITARY ammo that is shot out of their weapons is BALL AMMO FMJ. Period!!! THERE may be some super secret shit floating around though. ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
Lake City for example does make what they call match grade ammo that shoots FMJ bullets. QUALITY stuff that will shot MOA all day. Not like the basic GI issue most of us are familiar with.
The mass producing of standard FMJ bullets lack the quality control when comparing them to hunting bullets we deal with.
However, some FMJ bullets DO have tighter quality control standards and those bullets will be used by Lake City,Federal and a few others who have government contracts and make up some straight shooting stuff.
Sierra made lots of FMJ bullets that we sold to Federal to load accordingly.
Armorers for our military shooting teams do in fact hand load for their teams, but they shoot paper targets. So the famous Sierra 168's,190's are used.
I see no reason why they would not hand load for our sniper teams, AS long as their using FMJ style bullets when engaging human targets.
I know there is special made match grade military ammo floating around out there for the boys who shot the .50cal stuff too. Just more accurate than the standard belted 50 cal stuff.
My friend has obtained his share of MATCH grade military issued ammo over the years, when he shot high power matches with the US Army and USMC teams. GOOD STUFF!!!
The issue of troops buying their own scopes is interesting. Just like some of our troops early on bought their own bullet proof vests because the Army didn't have enough. So families chipped in and bought their kids one out of their own pockets. BETTER quality.
Samething with these scopes. They bought their own because their units didn't issue them for whatever reason.
An FBI former NAVY SEAL I met assigned to the terrorist task force has spend several tours overseas.
The FBI sent him and others a quantity of ammo for their M4's. On the pallot of ammo was a 500 round case of Federal ammo mixed in with all the FMJ stuff. Turned out to be 55gr V-Max bullets. OOPS they had to send that stuff back.
If Knockemdown is looking he can tell you a lot about US Optics scopes. He's owned a few of those in his day. HE is the go too man on optics.
I will say there are good and bad armorers in miltary units. A good one is a guy to hang out with, because he can sure trick out your rifle and fine tune it, making those coconuts shot on the Taliban a much easier task.
[ June 10, 2011, 08:55 PM: Message edited by: Ken ]
--------------------
I am 5'10",an asshole 220% for sure. Former dirty deed doer for PM. Corrupt too! My name is Festus.
Posts: 281 | From: High Desert | Registered: Aug 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Ken
will be missed
Member # 3065
|
posted June 10, 2011 09:03 PM
Lance, BM needs to quite dicken around and just give you a NEW rifle and be done with it. Throw that POS you got stuck with, in the metal heap.
Sorry to hear that. They say my R-15 is made by bushy, no problems with it so far, but I don't shoot lots of rounds and get it all hot and bothered to see if it will stand up to the test either.
--------------------
I am 5'10",an asshole 220% for sure. Former dirty deed doer for PM. Corrupt too! My name is Festus.
Posts: 281 | From: High Desert | Registered: Aug 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Dan Carey
unknown comic
|
posted June 10, 2011 09:17 PM
"Throw that POS you got stuck with, in the metal heap."
I think its a plastic problem.
IP: Logged
|
|
Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
|
posted June 10, 2011 09:21 PM
Yeah, I agree with what Ken said. Lance, it's long past time they just sent you a new rifle. The length of time involved is inexcusable. You have much too much patience.
gh/lb
edit: why didn't you just buy from Dan, (the man) in the first place?
[ June 10, 2011, 09:24 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
--------------------
EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32361 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Dan Carey
unknown comic
|
posted June 10, 2011 09:25 PM
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
IP: Logged
|
|
Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
|
posted June 10, 2011 09:33 PM
What does that mean? You are too expensive? Not competitive, or just a value issue? Quality cost a little more? I can't read all those $ signs.
gh/lb
--------------------
EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32361 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Dan Carey
unknown comic
|
posted June 10, 2011 09:35 PM
Yep exactly.
IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
Ken
will be missed
Member # 3065
|
posted June 10, 2011 09:38 PM
Your probably right Dan, crap none the less.
--------------------
I am 5'10",an asshole 220% for sure. Former dirty deed doer for PM. Corrupt too! My name is Festus.
Posts: 281 | From: High Desert | Registered: Aug 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Ken
will be missed
Member # 3065
|
posted June 10, 2011 09:40 PM
Tom I can't open it. Someone using some ass kickin ammo? If so news to me, cool by me.
--------------------
I am 5'10",an asshole 220% for sure. Former dirty deed doer for PM. Corrupt too! My name is Festus.
Posts: 281 | From: High Desert | Registered: Aug 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
Printer-friendly view of this topic
