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Author
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Topic: long range precision
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Ken
will be missed
Member # 3065
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posted June 10, 2011 09:42 PM
Lance is being patient because he is going to bust out that big barrel of ink he has and get to writing.
His next thread will be where he got the CEO of BM fired. ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
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I am 5'10",an asshole 220% for sure. Former dirty deed doer for PM. Corrupt too! My name is Festus.
Posts: 281 | From: High Desert | Registered: Aug 2008
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TOM64
Knows what it's all about
Member # 561
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posted June 10, 2011 09:44 PM
And please understand, BM doesn't have any contracts supplying M4's to the DoD for our troops. They did receive a small contract to supply the Iraqi National force, courtesy of the DoD and our tax dollars.
The armorer I was talking about was working for a private security company over there. He hated BM and couldn't believe some of the stuff they sent.
Posts: 2283 | From: okieland | Registered: Feb 2005
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jimanaz
2nd Place RICHARD FARNSWORTH LOOK-A-LIKE CONTEST
Member # 3689
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posted June 10, 2011 10:01 PM
Man, I've got a pre-merger Bushy that I'm quite fond of. It shoots pretty good too. Just goes to show you what happens when corporate giants who have no background in the industry swallow up the smaller fish. I'm talking about Cerebus, not necessarily Remington, but it seems that their quality may have slipped some too?
Posts: 940 | From: AZ | Registered: Oct 2010
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Dan Carey
unknown comic
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posted June 10, 2011 10:11 PM
Cerberus is a holding company that owns the Freedom Group, that holds all their sporting goods manufacturers. The Freedom Group has been for sale for a while now and there was some talk about doing an IPO and sell it to the people. Bottom line is everything they touch turns to shit.
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Dan Carey
unknown comic
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posted June 10, 2011 10:15 PM
Oh yeah Jim, you misspelled Cerberus. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Field Marshall, Southern Minneesota Sector
Member # 794
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posted June 10, 2011 10:49 PM
Cool link Tom. I like what they said about the 223 on the second to last page about it should'nt be used on live targets past 200 yds...
They claimed anything farther would have about the same tissue damage as a person or animal shot with a 22 L.R. at less than 100 yds.
I agree and thats why I don't own a 223 ....
Edit to add: I thought Rem. sells the DPMS brand of AR's...
[ June 10, 2011, 10:52 PM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
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What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
Posts: 5064 | From: S.D. | Registered: Jan 2006
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted June 10, 2011 11:21 PM
Yeah, the 223 is particularly useless on coyotes. Beyond 200. I concur.
gh/lb
edit: so Fred is going to bust my bubble on US Optics?
[ June 10, 2011, 11:25 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31462 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Ken
will be missed
Member # 3065
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posted June 11, 2011 12:21 AM
Yes trying to put down a raghead with a 223 who has been sucking on an opium pipe all day is quite the challenge.
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I am 5'10",an asshole 220% for sure. Former dirty deed doer for PM. Corrupt too! My name is Festus.
Posts: 281 | From: High Desert | Registered: Aug 2008
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TOM64
Knows what it's all about
Member # 561
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posted June 11, 2011 06:21 AM
Ken I just saw you couldn't open it, it's a pdf file so you'll need acrobat reader but here's a snipet;
"Of the currently available 5.56 mm
ammunition, the best overall choices for
military use in carbines and rifles are the
readily available and JAG approved
Hornady 75 gr OTM, BH loaded Nosler
77 gr OTM, and BH loaded Mk 262 77 gr
Sierra Match King OTM--all of which
offer both superior incapacitation
potential, as well as greater accuracy than
M855 62 gr FMJ."
JAG approved is the key words.
Here's another snipet of this article.
http://www.military.com/opinion/0,15202,87045,00.html
"About a month ago, more than a million rounds of USG-issued 7.62 X 51 M118LR sniper ammunition was denied to Army snipers in Iraq because a civilian contractor and a misguided staff sergeant believed the ammo was illegal. The civilian became convinced that pallet loads of Lake City M118LR rounds were hollowpoint. The civilian complained to an ammunition staff sergeant named Mosley, who took him at his word.
But of course M118LR isn't hollowpoint. It is open-tip ammunition, a distinction that evaded both the civilian and the noncom who should have known better, AHA (Ammo Holding Area) Staff Sergeant Mosely.
There's a huge difference. Hollowpoint is illegal. Full stop. End of story. M118LR is legal. It is Government-approved and issued flat-trajectory, match-grade, one shot one kill ammo that is used in the Army's M-24 SWS (Sniper Weapons System) rifle. This ammunition saves lives. It allows snipers in Iraq and Afghanistan to kill the enemy at extended range -- before the enemy can kill American soldiers."
Tim, you forgot the magic words, "if the bullet fails to yaw" and please consider we're talking about a 14.5" carbine where velocity is compromised and don't forget we're talking about FMJ ammo or OTM "target" ammo that isn't designed nor recomended for hunting.
Oh and DPMS makes some parts for Remingtons 308's while BM makes some parts for their 223's. Now Byron South told us that Remington who makes his signature rifle, produced what he wanted, while BM told him no even though at the time they sponsored him. But Remington has been competing for the SASS rifle AR-10 type rifles) contracts long before Cerebrus bought any of them.
[ June 11, 2011, 06:27 AM: Message edited by: TOM64 ]
Posts: 2283 | From: okieland | Registered: Feb 2005
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Ken
will be missed
Member # 3065
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posted June 11, 2011 08:29 AM
Thanks much Tom. MOST excellent story.
That is some good ammo and a fine bullet they use.
Glad to see stuff like that making it's way into the ranks.
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I am 5'10",an asshole 220% for sure. Former dirty deed doer for PM. Corrupt too! My name is Festus.
Posts: 281 | From: High Desert | Registered: Aug 2008
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jimanaz
2nd Place RICHARD FARNSWORTH LOOK-A-LIKE CONTEST
Member # 3689
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posted June 11, 2011 08:46 AM
Dammit Tom, you misspelled Cerberus. Don't piss off Dan!
Posts: 940 | From: AZ | Registered: Oct 2010
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TOM64
Knows what it's all about
Member # 561
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posted June 11, 2011 08:53 AM
Back to Leonards question, everything I come up with says the 308 load is now M118LR which uses a 175 gr SMK and is loaded at the Lake City arsenal.
This is all I could find on the 300WM.
"The US government purchased MK 248 MOD 1 .300 Winchester Magnum match-grade ammunition in 2009 for use in adapted M24 Sniper Weapon Systems and other .300 Winchester Magnum sniper rifles like the US Navy Mk.13s. This ammunition was developed as a .300 Winchester Magnum Match Product Improvement (PIP) and uses the 14.26 g (220 gr) Sierra MatchKing Hollow Point Boat Tail (HPBT) very-low-drag bullet fired at a nominal muzzle velocity of 869 m/s (2,850 ft/s) ± 15.2 m/s (50 ft/s)."
Nothing at all on loading ammo. The only reference to loading ammo was for the AMU team.
http://www.usaac.army.mil/amu/index.asp
Not saying it don't happen but with the legalities and logistics, I think it's highly unlikely that a sniper has his loads tailored to his rifle.
[ June 11, 2011, 08:55 AM: Message edited by: TOM64 ]
Posts: 2283 | From: okieland | Registered: Feb 2005
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jimanaz
2nd Place RICHARD FARNSWORTH LOOK-A-LIKE CONTEST
Member # 3689
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posted June 11, 2011 09:11 AM
I couldn't come up with anything to substantiate my fantasy either so it appears that Tom was once again right on target. All the info I was able to dig up implies that the sniper dudes have to reprove their dope whenever they change ammo lots.
Seems kinda backwards to me for guys who's motto is "1 shot, 1 kill", but maybe the stuff they get is held to high enough standards to make the process fairly simple.
Posts: 940 | From: AZ | Registered: Oct 2010
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TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Field Marshall, Southern Minneesota Sector
Member # 794
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posted June 11, 2011 09:34 AM
I read in Tom's link or somewhere else that the sniper ammo dose'nt have to shoot small one hole groups but just shoot a group size thats consistant everytime and canbe as great as 1"..
When switching from one lot# to the next all they should have to correct for is bullet drop..
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What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
Posts: 5064 | From: S.D. | Registered: Jan 2006
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Possumal
HONORARY CALLS FORUM MODERATOR edit: AND TOKEN LIBERAL
Member # 823
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posted June 11, 2011 09:45 AM
I have watched my nephew, Danny, knock down a lot of coyotes at 200 to 250 yds with his AR 223, so I suspect it is the ammunition you are using and the placement of the shot that tells the story. He is shooting the Hornady Superperformance Varmint with the 53 grain Vmax. I am sure the 55 grain Sierra Blitz King, loaded right, will give equal if not better performance.
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Al Prather
Foxpro Field Staff
Posts: 781 | From: Nicholasville, Ky. | Registered: Mar 2006
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Dave Allen
Hi, I'm SUPER DAVE, IN CHARGE OF Q STUFF (and Goat Leader) "I'm really not trying to be a dick".
Member # 3102
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posted June 11, 2011 10:05 AM
Quote, from LB..
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Might be easier to ask, WHO DOESN'T HANDLOAD?
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If anybody who doesnt and wants to please ask, I'm certainly not an expert, you would have to ask the guys on PM.. ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
Ok joke, I would be more than happy to provide my e-mail or phone number, to get a guy started as most if not everyone here would also.
Once you take the "plunge" there is no turning back, and why would ya ? Just do it.. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Posts: 1986 | From: Jordan Valley Oregon | Registered: Aug 2008
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted June 11, 2011 10:15 AM
I am alway surprise to find someone who doesn't? I mean, at this level, it's a very logical assumption.
gh/lb
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31462 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted June 11, 2011 10:28 AM
Can't spend what you don't have. If I was to order up a custom job, I can guarantee you Dan would get the dime. I like what I hear about his work and he gave me good information on a question I had concerning my Savage.
Too much patience? I agree, but what more can I do? I have the support of all my "higher ups" in the various and different companies and magazines I am associated and affiliated with, but how far can I go before I'm too far over the line and they cut me loose, too.
Yeah, it's bullshit, plain and simple, but at what point do I unleash the dogs of war and spend all day at my computer posting defamatory threads on every hunting- and gun-related site on the web advising others of how I've been treated on this? It was Mark Zepp who pointed out over on Higgins' board that, as a writer, I have some preordained obligation to the paid advertisers in the various magazines to support them and not do anything to cast aspersions on their companies. My position then, as it is even more so in this instance, is that revenue for magazines comes from advertiser - yes - but it also comes from readers and although I cannot specifically quote them in saying so, I can assure you that I have kept a number of my editors apprised of this matter and the consensus amongst them has been that they also consider the protection of the readers' interests as paramount and that if a company is selling substandard or defective equipment and advertise in their magazines, that does not give them free reign to just rip people off. They have, without exception, told me to do what I need to do - right is right, wrong is wrong - and they'll stand behind me. Having said that, I know that there is a line I need not cross. Figuring out just where that line is seems to be the challenge right now.
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5438 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
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DEL GUE
SECOND PLACE: Mad Bomber lookalike contest
Member # 1526
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posted June 11, 2011 10:29 AM
Leonard,
I have reloaded for a long time. I used to reload for pistol, but don't anymore. I haven't done any reloading for my rifles in prolly 7 yrs, but I have all the stuff for it. Currently I am using factory 17 Rem ammo, but do have a box of Berger 25 gr. HP's floating around here somewhere waiting to be loaded. For the record, I have a Tikka .223 Remington, and also an inherited Remington 788 in .22-250, so to think I am limited to .17 Remington is not accurate. I shoot what I want.
Ref the military, I'm thinking the line snipers are using match grade ammo from Lake City or some such. I don't think it is handloaded like you and I handload. However, some of the shit hot units like Delta and Seal Team 6 may well be using handloaded ammo, but they tend to operate under rules all their own.
As for police, my agency dictates what ammo it is permissible for us to use and carry. Handloads are definitely out for both liability issues and for the negative aspects it could carry in a trial. And to be honest, for our purposes factory ammo is adequately effective, accurate, and reliable. The Speer Gold Dot has earned a good reputation and performs well, and that is what I carry in my 40 S&W, my duty 45, and my Glock 357 Sig. In our agency 1911's are not authorized, so in my 1911 I usually carry what I always have, Winchester Silvertips. I also carry Silvertips in my S&W 686 .357 Mag, which I don't qualify with but do sometimes wear when I'm hunting. I've always fed my 10mm Silvertips, as well, except the few times I took it out West for bear defense before I got my 44 Mag, and for that I fed it Hornady 200 gr. JHP's.
I'm not a SWAT guy, so I dunno what our snipers are using, whether it's Hornady TAP rounds, or Federal Gold Medal Match, or Black Hills stuff.
I have the dies, bullets, etc. to load in .17 Remington, 6mm Remington, .25-06, .280 Remington, 7mm Remington Magnum, .30-06, 44 Magnum (Marlin 1894), 444 Marlin, and .45-70.
[ June 11, 2011, 10:33 AM: Message edited by: DEL GUE ]
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"I never could find no tracks on a woman's heart." - Bear Claw
Posts: 588 | From: FL | Registered: Jul 2007
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted June 11, 2011 10:31 AM
Al,
Although the Hornday VMax 55-grn is a staple amongst .223 shooters and a lot of coyote hyunters, I've noticed that the Vamx doesn't seem to have the anchoring power of the Sierra bullet of the same type and weight. Thought it was just me, but I've had at least a dozen other guys tell me the same thing, many of whom load their own and have similar experiences.
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5438 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
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Dave Allen
Hi, I'm SUPER DAVE, IN CHARGE OF Q STUFF (and Goat Leader) "I'm really not trying to be a dick".
Member # 3102
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posted June 11, 2011 10:39 AM
Yep, I'm with ya LB...
I have reloading books and maps, at my side by the recliner, I hate TV, other than westerns, Fox and sports.
The wife watches shit TV, housewifes ect..
I find pleasure in reading maps and reloading info, even for rounds I don't own..yet anyway.
And yeah I'm a dork..
Posts: 1986 | From: Jordan Valley Oregon | Registered: Aug 2008
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DEL GUE
SECOND PLACE: Mad Bomber lookalike contest
Member # 1526
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posted June 11, 2011 10:40 AM
Cerberus sucks ass. And I don't mean just a little bit, either.
They fucked up Remington and have now so thoroughly fucked up Marlin that I will no longer buy a new Marlin rifle.
Dave, if liking reading maps and looking at ballistics and stuff for cartridges you don't even own (yet) makes you a dork, then you ain't alone, buddy, cuz I'm the same way. Hell, I even enjoy going onto Google Earth and looking at Air Force and Navy bases...I love seeing the B-52's and B-1's and F-15's all lined up, and seeing carriers and subs.
[ June 11, 2011, 10:44 AM: Message edited by: DEL GUE ]
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"I never could find no tracks on a woman's heart." - Bear Claw
Posts: 588 | From: FL | Registered: Jul 2007
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tlbradford
Rimfires are MAGIC on COYOTES! If you do your part
Member # 1232
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posted June 11, 2011 10:40 AM
I quit reloading for the time being as well. I have a lot of handloads to use up and with the birth of 3 kids in the past 5 years, I only send a few rounds down range each year. The only factory loads I have been using still are Hornady Vmax 32 grain for the .204. I get really great performance with these out of my Savage.
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"Dan Carey ain't that special" - LB
Posts: 423 | From: Spokane Valley, WA | Registered: Mar 2007
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knockemdown
Our staff photo editing Guru, par excellence
Member # 3588
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posted June 11, 2011 11:16 AM
quote:
edit: so Fred is going to bust my bubble on US Optics?
nope...
Posts: 2202 | From: behind fascist lines | Registered: Mar 2010
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Possumal
HONORARY CALLS FORUM MODERATOR edit: AND TOKEN LIBERAL
Member # 823
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posted June 11, 2011 12:34 PM
Cdog911, as I posted, Danny is shooting the Hornady Superperformance Varmint with the 53 grain Vmax and he gets good results. I agree with your statement about the 55 grain Sierra Blitz King, and I believe that it will outshoot the 53 grain Vmax.
On the 204 rifle, my grandson was shooting some 32 grain loads that some guy loaded for him, and was having a lot of coyotes get up and run off. I started loading him the 39 grain Sierra Blitz King, and he has killed about 40 in a row with no run offs at all. It is more accurate also.
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Al Prather
Foxpro Field Staff
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