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Author
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Topic: 6mm wildcats
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JeremyKS
Knows what it's all about
Member # 736
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posted February 10, 2009 06:59 AM
Im going to build a new rifle that will be used mostly for contest hunts. With that said Im leaning towards some type of 6mm. It seems like the 6x284 is pretty popular. Anything better or any cons to this round? Any help or ideas are greatly appreciated.
On another note...I have read somewhere what is thought to be the minimum amount of energy is needed to kill a coyote. Anybody know that number?
Posts: 369 | From: Texas panhandle | Registered: Nov 2005
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Andy L
HI, I'M THE NEW MODERATOR OF THE CENTRAL MISSOURI FORUM, PULL MY FINGER!
Member # 642
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posted February 10, 2009 09:21 AM
Jeremey, my son and I have been discussing a new wildcat. We have decided on the 6.5 platform. A larger range of bullets and ballistics are better.
Looking at a 6.5-284 or a 6.5-06...
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Andy
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Leonard
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Member # 2
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posted February 10, 2009 10:00 AM
There are many choices available, JeremyMS. I used to own a 6/250AI and it was perfectly adequate for coyotes beyond reasonable range.
I curently use a 243Win and a 6mmRem and a 243AI. They are all capable of killing a coyote. But, beyond that case capacity, like the 6/284 that you mention.... the barrel life is usually very poor.
I have never seen the need for more velocity than what is available from one of the above choices? Some speed freaks would disagree but that's my opinion.
A plain vanilla 243 will kill a ton of coyotes without a bunch of case forming and expensive dies, but some people like the journey into exotics, ya know? But, once you've done it a few times, the thrill is gone.
A 6mmRem or a 243 is very serious coyote medicine, right off the shelf and will dump their dick in the dirt as well as any exotic; in my opinion. Plenty suitable bullets, too.
Every animal I killed in Africa, from Cape fox & wart hog to Kudu (size of elk) was with a 6mmRemington. You really cannot go wrong with a six; any six m/m.
Good hunting. LB
edit: forgot to mention that with the 6/284, you have one less cartridge in the magazine.
[ February 10, 2009, 10:04 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
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JeremyKS
Knows what it's all about
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posted February 10, 2009 10:00 AM
Andy, what bullets did you have in mind?
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JeremyKS
Knows what it's all about
Member # 736
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posted February 10, 2009 10:04 AM
Leonard,
Im currently using a plain 243 as a contest gun but I have the itch for something new and "faster".
Jeremy
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted February 10, 2009 10:06 AM
Then just get the 243AI, very hard to beat, in my opinion. Lots of load data available and the performance is damned near unbeatable.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
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JeremyKS
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posted February 10, 2009 10:41 AM
How fast and what bullet are you shooting in your 243AI?
Posts: 369 | From: Texas panhandle | Registered: Nov 2005
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Leonard
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Member # 2
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posted February 10, 2009 10:49 AM
Well, you got me there! I'm still dicking around with fireforming. But, look here: http://www.6mmbr.com/gunweek024.html
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
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Posts: 32368 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Southern Minneesota Know it all
Member # 794
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posted February 10, 2009 11:34 AM
I will also say go with the 243 ackley. Bullets from 58 gr. up to 85 gr. work very well on coyotes. You can also go heavier but then you could just as well go to a 25-06 instead..
If you get in a bind and run out of ammo then you could also shoot factory loads in the ackley..
The brass is easey to make and fireform and the ones i've been around shoot very good..
With the 243 ackley you will want to have a kenton BDC dial or the Leupold ballistic dots installed so you can take advantage of its range..
If you want a Hot-rod then look into a 257 Arnold, they shoot very fast and flat, but there won't be much of a coyote left if you hit one, so don't plan on getting the biggest dog award.. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted February 10, 2009 12:01 PM
Yeah, sure. Why stop there when a nice little 338 Lapua can handle just about any coyote that ever lived?
Don't get sucked into this ultra high performance shit. A predator hunting rifle doesn't need a tight neck and special cold weather loads. I'd go with reliability first, then performance. And, I use a 25'06AI on coyotes, but it's a truck gun. Different twenty pound animal (rifle) I can't imagine a situation on a daylight stand that a 243AI couldn't handle quite well. Proven performance, well respected, simple case preparation, no flies on this puppy, at all.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Southern Minneesota Know it all
Member # 794
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posted February 10, 2009 01:55 PM
I did'nt know a 17 rem was high performance. ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
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What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted February 10, 2009 02:15 PM
Tim, show me a legit contest hunter that uses one of those subcalibers and I'll eat my hat. Giggles loves you, too!
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32368 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Southern Minneesota Know it all
Member # 794
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posted February 10, 2009 02:29 PM
LOL Leonard.. I saw his post in the padded room.
I will give him credit though he is one of the best internet experts there is. He has so much knowledge of coyotes and how to make vidios. I would'nt be surprised if he came out with a book on both subjects.. I don't think he can kill many coyotes though and maybe thats why he has to go to the padded room to vent..LOL
as for the 17 rem being used in contests you are correct but in the next year or so you you maybe eating youre hat and another member willbe dishing out 1000.00 big ones.. Its just a matter of time..
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What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
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3 Toes
El Guapo
Member # 1327
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posted February 10, 2009 05:40 PM
Jeremy, I just built a 6x47 Lapua and I really like it. It is really,really shooting. But in reality a 6mm Ackley is the logical way to go. I like the 6.5 stuff too, but when you start shooting the long heavy bullets for the long range accuracy you give up expansion. I know several guys that built 6.5x284s that aren't getting the expansion and killing power they wanted. Just poking pencils in and out. LB pretty much covered it with the 243 Ackley and the 6mm Ackley. I had a 6x284 for a while and it was a shooter, but I couldn't do anything with it that Cenny can't do with his 6mm Ackley.
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Violence may not be the best option....
But it is still an option.
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted February 10, 2009 07:33 PM
Yeah, the only *********** (edit: that's supposed to be re$ervation) I have on a 6mmAckley is the magazine length in a short action which limits your bullets in how far out you can seat them. The other alternative is to use a long action and then you probably need a spacer, like is done in new Model 70s. But, as much as I like a 6mmRem. I just don't think I am giving up that much with a 243AI capacity. It's an efficient case, in my view.
As far as the inherent accuracy of such as a 6X47Lapua versus a 243AI, I'm not convinced that it's not more like a difference in the individual barrels; at least in a hunting application. There is a lot to be said for the harmonics and length and contour of a barrel that tends to minimize all the chatter about certain cartridges being the be all and end all in accuracy. In other words, (assuming you could develop an equally accurate load for each cartridge) groups shot with a 6X47, and then punch it to 243AI; I just wonder if it's primarily the barrel or the cartridge, all things being equal? Probably been done often enough, but I never paid attention to specific results, if they have been published? Just a gut feeling.
Good hunting. LB
[ February 10, 2009, 07:34 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
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sparkyibewlocal440
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Member # 397
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posted February 11, 2009 07:45 AM
Jeremy,it's hard to argue with Leonard's assessment of the .243.Look up Hodgdon's loading data website and see for yourself.The standard .243 with a 55 grain bullet is doing 4000+fps,that's some serious velocity.I know a couple of guys shooting that set up and are getting at least that velocity.I too,believe when the "rubber meets the road"I'd rather have a heavier grain bullet over the 30-40 grain weight class.
I'm one of those "exotic speed freaks" that Leonard talks about.I'm after flat trajectory.When I re barrel my .22-243,which is coming up pretty soon,it's going to be a .243 set up for 55 grain bullets,for the 200-300 plus feet per second advantage it offers using the same weight bullet.It will be the AI version to help satisfy my need for speed....
Looking for a real "Hammer",the 6mm/06 using 70 grain Ballistic Tips at 4000 fps would pretty much do it.I started this project 5 years ago but backed off,went a different direction.
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6mm284
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Member # 1129
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posted February 11, 2009 09:03 AM
Wouldn't 70gr bullets at 4000fps be pushing the pressure in a 6mm/06. I shoot a 6/284 with 70 grain and 4000fps is really getting up there in pressure.I back it down and lose some velocity to 3800 fps not too much trajectory loss and have 1300 rds down the barrel with little accuracy loss.I guess I would not be so concerned about barrel life if the 6/284 is shot a little less than max pressures. Am not familar with 6/06 case capacity but think it would be quite full.I have reamers and barrel for a 243ai project, the only drawback I can also see is being limited to shorter bullets because of magazine length. But in may case twist rate of 1/12 will already be the limiting bullets to lighter and shorter.
[ February 11, 2009, 09:08 AM: Message edited by: 6mm284 ]
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Dan Carey
unknown comic
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posted February 11, 2009 09:06 AM
I like a 85 grain or heavier in my 243AI. The heavier bullets "buck" the wind better and have thicker jackets in case you are weighing the animal, (more flesh left to weigh).
I might add I use a 6 WOA almost exclusively when hunting predators. Using a 65 grain V Max at 3400 it works well.
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sparkyibewlocal440
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Member # 397
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posted February 11, 2009 09:28 AM
Yep,from the information I gathered when I was considering building a 6mm/06, 4000 feet per second was a max load for a 70 grain bullet. As for short barrel life, if it's a dedicated rifle just for Coyotes and say it get's somewhere around 500 or so rounds,that's still allot of Coyotes isn't it. That would last a few years for most guy's?
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Leonard
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posted February 11, 2009 10:17 AM
Yeah, we all have a concept of what's practical and what isn't...to put it delicately.
Dan, what's a 6WOA? I swear, I can't keep up with all the friggin' endless versions on the same theme. But, I agree about a heavier bullet in the 243AI, just from the standpoint of barrel life I don't want (edit: multiple) load development to exhaust my accuracy potential and I'm a cheap bastud, I want these things to serve me well over a span of years, as I'm not into repetative gunsmith welfare while funding their retirement. (except for you, big guy)
But there is always another way to skin a cat. I am currently using a 56 grain bullet in my 6mmRem and it does what it's 'sposed to do. The light fast club (speed freaks) actually has some sound ideas, once in a while. ![[Smile]](smile.gif) My 243W likes the 74Berger however, coyotes don't. Damn, there are so many choices out there before I need to find out why I need a 6WAM!
Good hunting. LB
edit: sparky, I understand speed freaks, Amigo. I'm a recovering speed freak, myself. (edit: that don't sound right, does it?)
[ February 11, 2009, 10:23 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
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JeremyKS
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Member # 736
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posted February 11, 2009 11:31 AM
Well despite what sounds like sound advise I fell into the speed freaks club and have decided to build a 6mm-06 improved.
[ February 11, 2009, 11:37 AM: Message edited by: JeremyKS ]
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sparkyibewlocal440
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posted February 11, 2009 11:32 AM
Leonard,
56 grain bullet? Of course something that light would catch my attention for a .243 bore. Is that a typo error ?
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sparkyibewlocal440
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posted February 11, 2009 11:35 AM
Wow! Improved,now your talk'in. Coyotes are going to hit the ground as if they fell from the Sky!
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted February 11, 2009 12:07 PM
Well, the one advantage in an "Improved" 40º shoulder is that you can generally operate at substancially higher pressures, all things being equal. The trend away from long cases to short stubby configurations means you are swimming against the current, but no doubt, you have a potent thunderstick envisioned. My preference, along those lines is my 25'06AI, but it may be because I already have enough other stuff? By the way, I think you can carry short stubby too far so I have no reservations against the '06 case, EXCEPT that it is outside my personal efficiency realm and entering the world of diminishing returns....since nothing is free, and you plan on a new barrel every year as certainly as you renew your vehicle registration. Okay, okay, not quite that bad, but if a 6RemImproved doesn't meet the criteria of what is loosly classified as "overbore" what does, eh? But, we are all building a dream rifle and life is too short to hunt with fat chicks or boring chamberings. Or, do I mean, "hunt for" fat chicks? But, these concepts are constantly evolving. What seems perfect this year doesn't necessarily blow your skirt up next year, kinda like a gas guzzling SUV. Oh wait; that's different, huh? Maybe not?
Good hunting. LB
edit: Sparky, I don't do typos, lol
[ February 11, 2009, 12:10 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
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sparkyibewlocal440
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Member # 397
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posted February 11, 2009 12:33 PM
Leonard, I stand corrected,I was hoping you'd bite on that...
It escapes me who makes a .243 dia. 56 grain bullet,please enlighten me kind sir.
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