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Author
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Topic: Let's talk cartridges for coyotes
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earthwalker
Cultural Editor & middleweight arm wrestling champion/Intermountain Region
Member # 4177
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posted February 06, 2020 05:00 AM
What is your go too?
I shot a barrel out of a ruger 22.250.
That is the one I've used the most.
Tried a 223 and it's okay but was to use to the 22.250 and took to long of shots with 223.
Have used the .204 which is nice as long as you don't hit a shoulder blade. Have it in a Tikka T3 which is accurate. Have it in a R15 and don't like the rifle at all.
Have tried the .222 which is a great little rifle for the YOY and red fox.
Late heavy furred older coyotes it doesn't seem to work to well on with any great distance. At least on our desert late winter coyotes.
Other half has a Rem 17 and is real nice but works well on the YOY and red fox.
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another long hot smoky summer coming
Posts: 1105 | From: Intermountain region | Registered: Jul 2012
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Leonard
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posted February 06, 2020 08:20 AM
I suppose the first thing to square away is your motivation? For instance, I had a long career as a contest hunter and all I wanted was an accurate rifle at any reasonable range, and a stone dead coyote. Entry level for that type of hunting is probably a 22-250. You can start with that and never look back. I have owned 22-250 and the Ackley version, 243 and the Ackley version, 6mm Remington and 25'06 Remington and the Ackley version.
If your purpose is hides and you are a disciplined shot, the 17 Remington and the various "improved" versions are good choices, if you handload. Otherwise, that 222Remington is a good one with selected bullets. Same with your 22-250, with selected bullets, and there again, it's a hand loading proposition.
There are lots of people that swear by 223Remington. I swear at them, but you can't fix stupid. Anyway, that's a cartridge that won't blow up a lot of fur, as long as you stay away from 50 grain bullets. There must be a hundred 55 grain bullets available and some are less destructive than others, depending on where you aim. I have examined thousands of dead coyotes and truthfully, I cannot tell the difference in damage between a 22-250 and a 243Winchester.
All of the above is OPINION, which I offer without reservation. But, as they say; blank blank etc. ...everybody has one.
If all you want is a dead coyote, focus on accuracy. You will never make a Ruger shoot with a Remington or a Savage, but lots of people try. The temptation to start ordering target barrels and match triggers is overpowering. There is not the ideal coyote rifle but you can rig three rifles to cover all the bases.
For the average Joe, you want a carry rifle, one that you can lay in sticks and make those 200 yard shots and resist the rest out yonder. You will chase fewer runners that way. So, a medium weight barrel of 24 inches, and the performance is substantially better with a 26" barrel if you can get past that "handy" consideration?
I personally do not understand why everybody doesn't hand load their own ammunition? The factory offerings are just not as good as what you can custom create yourself. Very recently, I read about Federal and their custom line. I suppose they are also premium priced? But, I can buy 100 cases and make them last 10 years, with bullets, primers and propellants of my choice. And, the second round of fireforming is better than the first. I don't know how much money is saved, reloading for rifle, but you have far better ammunition, if you care about such things?
If there is anything I have not considered, or anybody else that feels like chiming in, be my guest. And, good luck!
Good hunting. El Bee
[ February 06, 2020, 08:24 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31471 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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earthwalker
Cultural Editor & middleweight arm wrestling champion/Intermountain Region
Member # 4177
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posted February 06, 2020 08:27 AM
I killed a lot of coyotes with that Ruger.
Don't care for a 223 at all.
Took us a while to dial in the right bullet for the 22.250 and weight.
Don't ask haven't shot at a coyotes for too many years now and have forgotten the bullet grain and so forth.
Got busy trying to dial in elk rifles.
Then we got busy and started only caring one rifle mainly for those drive up coyotes. Even though we always had 2 in the truck.
I never got into contest and never want too.
Seemed like everything we used to call in was at the 200-250 yards. Now it seems like with e-callers all the coyotes want to do is sit and howl at you.
Up here let a dog whine and the coyotes are gone. Way to many dog runners.
I was just curious and we needed something else to talk about.
Now I just need to get someone going on bows so I can learn some more.
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another long hot smoky summer coming
Posts: 1105 | From: Intermountain region | Registered: Jul 2012
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NVWalt
Does not claim to be overly bright!
Member # 375
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posted February 06, 2020 10:02 AM
What Leonard posted is pretty spot on and very much the same experiance I have had. Still shoot a 22-250 but over the last dozen years or so I have shot a 17 Rem and I love that little thing with but one reservation and that is you HAVE to place your shot. I Like how I can watch everything in the scope when I shoot the 17 and it is cool, But, I wouldn't recommend it for a newbie that has a tendency to get excited at the sight of a called in coyote or any other predator. Just my 2 cents and that's about all it's worth also.
And to NOT reload is a very big puzzle to me. Kinda on par with saying you are a fly fisherman and don't tie your own flies!
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Support Communism and help destroy the United States of America ! VOTE DEMOCRAT. "In the end, they aren't coming after me. They are coming after you!" D.Trump
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UTcaller
NEVADA NIGHT FIGHTER
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posted February 06, 2020 12:08 PM
It’s funny how things change as the years fly by. Shot a 22-250 for a lot of years. Loved it killed a lot of Coyotes with it. Then I got bit by the small caliber bug. Don’t regret it even a little bit. .204 Ruger, .17 Tactical ( necked down .223), and .17 Ackley Hornet were my main go to rifles. Again killed a lot of Coyotes with them. Then I rebarreled my 22-250 to 22-250 Ackley Improved. Again love that gun. I then broke down and bought a Suppressor. Which I absolutely love. Threaded a 204 Ruger and my 22-250 Ackley. Since that purchase I have used the Ackley 99% of time. Ended up cutting my 26” barrel to 21” and with the 60 grain Bergers it’s running about 3700 fps... Doesn’t blown them up to bad but kills them very well. All my other guns just collect dust it seems like anymore.....
Good Hunting Chad
[ February 16, 2020, 02:16 PM: Message edited by: UTcaller ]
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Kokopelli
SENIOR DISCOUNT & Dispenser of Sage Advice
Member # 633
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posted February 06, 2020 12:24 PM
Did someone mention bows ?????
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And lo, the Light of the Trump shown upon the Darkness and the Darkness could not comprehend it.
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Leonard
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posted February 06, 2020 07:26 PM
No, but Valentine's Day is fast approaching! Cupid learned everything he knows from ko ko!
Carry on!
El Bee
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31471 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
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posted February 06, 2020 07:42 PM
Hey Chad! There are other solutions, but Damn! That 22-250 Ackley is such a performer, I have been saying for 20 years that it deserves to be a chambered Factory cartridge offering! It is every bit as worthy as the 280 Ackley, which IS a legit cartridge. And. I'll bet there are more 22-250 Ackley's in the field than 280 Ackley's. Not that popularity is the main consideration, just an observation.
The thing is, a 40 degree shoulder improves just about any factory offering, in several ways. Half of the rifles in my safe are Ackley Improved!
Good hunting. El Bee
PS a lot of people think those Ackleys are barrel burners. I do not agree. Keep the pressure in the neighborhood of a 220 Swift and that barrel should hold up just fine.
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31471 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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UTcaller
NEVADA NIGHT FIGHTER
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posted February 07, 2020 11:09 AM
A few years ago I could have seen the .22-250AI becoming a factory chambering, but not anymore everybody is to into the latest fad the “Creedmore”. The 22 Creedmore won’t do anything the 22-250AI can’t do too, but it doesn’t matter the Marketing Machine has really pushed them.
Doesn’t matter to me. I won’t own one in any of there chamberings. Just don’t see the big advantage..
Since I went with a Suppressor my 22-250AI has been the gun I always grab. Best Coyote killer I own out to my limit of 400 yards. The 60 grain Bergers have a decent B.C .278 running around 3700 fps it hits them hard and I really don’t see a lot of fur damage. Recoil which has never been an issue anyway has dropped by 50% with the Suppressor and the Dbs have run consistently at around 128. Which makes it a dream to shoot. It would not surprise me if this is the only rifle I shoot until it’s shot out which won’t be for a long time.
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Leonard
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posted February 07, 2020 12:07 PM
You beat me to it! I was going to comment about all the chatter concerning Creedmore this and that! Somebody somewhere wants Creedmore to be the BFD in rifle chambering and I don't understand why?
I'm contrary enough to be against something just because everybody else is for it. No matter it's supposed virtues, and anyway, what could it possibly be? Accuracy must be it, it can't be efficiency? Lately, they have been talking about the polymer case with a metal head. I mean, this has been discussed a million years ago. We are told that the short, fat case design is the cat's meow. But, that's a big boat, and Norma has a few, so does Hornady and the similarity is basic design attributes, not a cool name.
But, there is no doubt that certain words convey MAGIC. Like 220 Swift! Creedmore ain't there yet!
Good hunting. El Bee
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
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TOM64
Knows what it's all about
Member # 561
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posted February 10, 2020 10:39 AM
Here's a shocker, I don't hunt with the 223 much anymore. Nothing wrong with it but all of mine are AR's and I use them for other things. Use the same discipline that one would use for the 222 or 17 Remington and the 223 will do just as good if not better.
My best all around coyote gun is my 22-250 Ackley in a Kimber Montana. Rolling weight at 7 lbs with it's big heavy SWFA 3-9 super chicken scope and I can tote it all day yet it's stable enough that I make head shots on my steel range at 600 yards. I shoot the 75 grain A max at 3400 fps in its 22" barrel.
Throw cats in the mix and I'll grab the same gun but in 204R. I think it kills coyotes just as well as the 22-250 with good 40 grain bullets.
Things do change
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UTcaller
NEVADA NIGHT FIGHTER
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posted February 10, 2020 11:38 AM
Yeah Tom I totally agree about the .204... I’m still shooting what I started with 15 years ago the 35 grain Bergers still kills Coyotes like it always has. Like it in the winter sometimes especially if I’m in Bobcat Country. One of these days I’ll probably Thread my .17 Tactical and .17 Ackley Hornet but right now I’m good with .22-250 AI and the .204 Ruger....
Good Hunting Chad
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Leonard
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Member # 2
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posted February 10, 2020 11:43 AM
You must be rolling a 7" twist? Both of mine are 1X12" and a 62 grain bullet is max, for me. But, since I don't shoot coyotes past 400 yards anyway, and even then, it's a rarity. So, I'm good and I think my barrels last a bit longer. Besides, I have never been a fan of max loads, I'm too cheap to burn barrels just to gain another 60/100 fps.
I admit, there are a lot of solutions out there.
You know, I've never owned a 222, only knew one guy that did own one. But, it's a nostalgia piece. I take that back Ken Price had a 222 Rem Mag. All the same, only different.
Now, why the long neck on a 222 Remington is supposed to be advantageous for accuracy, I don't know? Yet my 300 Win Mag. has the short neck and it's very acceptable accuracy wise. That's a little beyond my grasp. Does anybody really enjoy shooting a 300 Magnum? I don't. But, it's a hell of a lot more reasonable than the Weatherby. My partner Pat used to ask me to sight it in for him. He can handle it, he just doesn't want to handle it any more than he has to. He got one of those deals of a lifetime on a Mark 5 from a man that decided it was more gun that he wanted or needed. It's a screamer, for sure and I never had a desire to own one, the Winchester is all I ever needed, even though I got such a deal on it that I wanted to rebarrel to 7Rem Mag. The first time I took it on a hunt, I changed my mind and since, I'm firmly in the 300 camp, but was firmly in the 7 camp previously. You can make an argument for just about any cartridge, if you think about it long enough.
As another buddy used to say, you are buying a dream. Everybody's dream is different. I've never owned a 30'06 and am pretty vocal about it. But if I owned one, I'd probably think of a few good things to say about it. Look at me? I have a 308 and yet I think they suck. Go figure.
Good hunting. El Bee
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
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Posts: 31471 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
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posted February 13, 2020 10:08 AM
What else can we talk about? I just read an article in Guns and Ammo about the joys of handloading. Fair warning, it was basic entry level information, but it should get the ball rolling.
And by the way, G&A now has an online edition because they have determined that they are being discriminated against, in the marketplace. Several ways, like not displaying their magazine, at retail outlets because it's offensive to Liberals; but the porn is available within reach of toddlers.
But, the idea is that "Reloading" (a term I hate) is a very rewarding hobby. Even though I never thought of it as a "hobby" like stamp collecting? Sudden thought! I have never been to a Hobby Lobby. I wonder if they handle handloading stuff? I'm thinking, NO. There used to be a store I think in Northridge? It was for serious "reloading" and it went belly up at least 15, maybe 20 years ago? I used to go there once in a while, before everybody was buying online because we were afraid of somebody stealing our credit card info?
And, this is why we don't have traditional sporting goods stores in every town, that sold everything from baseball bats to 30-30's. Well, the liberals sure have us boxed in. We can't buy guns mail order and they have squeezed out mom and pop gun stores. Used to be Sears and then Walmart. I bought my first gun from Sears! A 270 Mauser, loved that gun! I regret every gun I ever sold!
Right now, I have joined the scaredy cats and have been stocking up on strictly handgun ammunition, I'm sure I have well over a thousand dollars worth, and since I "reload" it will probably last me forever? It's getting harder, down on my hands and knees, picking up autoloading brass, but I do it. My method is to wait until I have 700/1,000 empties and then do some serious custom loading and that's when I suddenly realize the advantage of a Dillon! (which I don't have) Oh well, I have nothing but time on my hands and a Dillon isn't any better, only faster. Much faster, after extended preparation, loading all the stations, etc. But, the actual jerking the handle is boringly swift. If I ever see one at an estate sale, y'all are allowed to laugh at me.
But, why does Victor need TWO of them? I bet he's doing more fishing than hunting and even less, busting caps on targets. I'll give you $150 for the 550 and I'll pay shipping. Right now, it's probably getting rusty in that salt air climate? Git rid of it, Amigo. Let me know. (you can keep the dies)
Good hunting. El Bee
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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Brent Parker
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posted February 13, 2020 12:10 PM
Well you can count me as one of the .22 Creedmoor guys. What's not to like??? Factory brass, chamber it, load and shoot? I don't have to fireform runs as fast if not faster than a .22-250 AI I was shooting a 77 TMK at 3400 out of a 22" killed coyotes at 775 and 800 both with a witness. It flat kills coyotes. Is it my fur gun? No, but it could be. The 77 TMK was ok never had one I couldn't repair. Going to a 60 TMK with an 18" barrel at around 3700 I guessing. May run it this season as my fur rifle. But most likely will run my .223 AI with 40 NBT. I don't have an issue with a 223 or a 223 AI. Hell my .223 only has a 12.5" barrel. Hell till I started denning all I ever ran was a .17 Remington. Killed hundreds of coyotes with it. I never had all these runner issues every one talked about and ran both Berger 25 HP and Hornaday 25 HP. Stick the bullet were a coyote lives he seem to fall over and die. I think we over think this coyote cartridge stuff. Hell the .222 was king for years and years for coyotes then all of a sudden the .223 isn't enough. Christ guys its a fucking coyote. Hell Victor and I ran a dam .22 hornet for several years and I watched coyote after coyote die. No one must have told them it wasn't enough gun. LOL
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Leonard
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posted February 13, 2020 03:05 PM
You are right, of course. Okay?
But, talking about 223Ackley. I always used the 55 VMax on coyotes. I suddenly remembered, reading your post that I have a couple boxes out in the shop of 40 grain VMax, that I've never used? In fact, I forgot that I had them until about a week ago, saw them and went where the hell did that come from? I just remembered, I loaded them for prairie dogs when I went to visit Scott Huber in South Dakota. I only killed one coyote on that trip but it wasn't with the 40's. So, how far out do you trust them?
Good hunting. El Bee
PS if I had a Hornet, I'd use it. Case life is a problem, no?
edit: besides, most of the chatter about the thrill of Creedmore is 24 and 6.5 not .224"
[ February 13, 2020, 03:07 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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UTcaller
NEVADA NIGHT FIGHTER
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posted February 13, 2020 04:58 PM
But I guess that’s what I don’t understand about the Ease that everyone has with loading for the Creed. Everything you mentioned is what I did. I bought 200 rounds of Lapua .22-250 Brass. Loaded all 200 over 22-250 max went out killed probably 150 Coyotes. Fireforming done... tweak my load with more powder, Go Kill more Coyotes. Repeat process. How is the Creed any easier than that. And I’m getting almost 3700 fps with 60 grain Bergers with a 21 inch barrel Suppressed too....
And yes for fur I’ll grab my .204 Ruger and shoot 35 grain Bergers, amazing Coyote killer and fur saver out to 350 yards...With a 20 inch Barrel Suppressed and they are Still running alittle under 3900fps......
Only two guns I shoot at predators anymore...
Now if it’s Factory ammo you’re talking about with the Creed, No I don’t have that option but then again I haven’t shot factory ammo in any of my rifles for 30 years....And don’t plan on starting any time soon
Good Hunting Chad
[ February 16, 2020, 02:18 PM: Message edited by: UTcaller ]
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Leonard
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posted February 13, 2020 09:37 PM
Yes, that’s what I was thinking, he must mean the convenience of factory loads. But, as you mention, I have not fired a factory round in any rifle I own, in more like 45 years. And until ten years ago or so I started buying some handgun ammunition but mostly just 45 ACP because they get flung hither and yon and buying factory hardball is the best way of getting brass. The only other center fire I owned was 357 and you don’t lose them. So I’ve hand loaded almost everything and since I’m not a high volume shooter of anything, I’m just constatutionally opposed to purchasing boxes of ammo. That’s for rookies. Just kidding, but I’m pretty militant about it for myself. Others, whatever turns you on! I’ll try not to act superior. 🤐 or do I mean, smarter?
Good hunting. El Bee 🐝
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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TOM64
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posted February 14, 2020 05:34 AM
I've said that if I had to start over, I'd probably go 22 Creed. Probably just so I could be one of the Kool kids. But starting with max loads out of the gate is a plus in my book. Thankfully, I have yet to burn the barrel out of my 22-250 Ackley and I hate buying new dies even if I did...
I reload everything but I have bought a little 5.56 FMJ practice ammo for the machine guns. Load all rifle on an old Rockchucker.
Pistol, I buy self defense ammo but load practice rounds on my Dillon SDB. A buddy of mine got me into an active shooter training class and mentioned at a match, that he was out of bullets. I wanted to do something for him so I gave him 1000 bullets and let him use my SDB. He/we, loaded 1000 rounds of 9mm in just about 3 hours one evening. He saw the light.
Back to rifles, I really liked my 243 Ackley when I had it but it never failed to bring a cat to the stand when I carried it. For a dual purpose hunting gun, coyotes and elephants, I think it'd be about perfect for a one gun guy.
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Leonard
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posted February 14, 2020 12:49 PM
Hmm? I have yet to kill anything with my 243 Ackley? In fact, new brass is fireformed, but I haven't actually worked up THEE load, yet. What the hell am I waiting for? I am taking my granddaughter to the range next week and that's one that I wanted her to try, mainly because of that big ass 5X25X56 US Optics sitting on top. I don't think I'll get around to it?
To clarify; what was the "light" that your buddy saw? Did he run out and buy a Dillon or does he intend to use yours? Besides the boolits, did you donate the powder and primers, besides? What a deal! Next time, he will probably ask you to leave all that stuff out by the gate and he will pick it up when he gets a chance. I'm just kidding, but there are people out there that you cannot do enough for. If you know what I mean?
Good hunting. El Bee
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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TOM64
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posted February 14, 2020 07:14 PM
I shot the 75 grain Vmax and was thrilled with the results on coyotes then shot 105 Amax's for long range steel. Cuz wound up with the gun and killed a few deer with the 105's and went to 85 gr Vmax's for everything.
My buddy got me in a $300 class so I gave him 1000 bullets. He brought powder, brass and primers. Said it would've took him all week to load them on his Rockchucker. I suppose he'll use mine again until he buys his own. I don't see him doing without a Dillon forever. But he can use mine as long as he wants.
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Leonard
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posted February 15, 2020 08:46 AM
I understand, completely. But there are other people that are less worthy, if you know what I mean? I like to be generous with my time and treasure, but I like to see a minimum level of appreciation.
Good hunting. El Bee
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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Brent Parker
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posted February 18, 2020 01:52 PM
Sorry for they delays in responding, its trapping season guys.
Chad, nothing wrong with the 22-250 AI but I expect those velocities with an 18" barrel. Also no need for adjusting my load. No fireforming even though fireforming itself isn't an issue. I just don't have to do it. I wouldn't know about factory ammo, I haven't tried any, Leonard like the rest here I reload everything. There are multiple outfits making .22 Creedmoor brass. Choice of primer size if that's an issue for you.
.223 Ackley with 40's I trust it too 300. About like I did my .17 Rem. I am not a fan of the v max bullet. I sent a picture to Dan S to show him the entrance on a broadside coyote I shot with the 55 v max and it was surprisingly bigger than I would have thought. Most nbt's are bullet diameter on entrance. I'm pushing them around 3800 with a 20" suppressed rifle.
I do plan to build a switch barrel in .20 practical for this action and make a comparison. However I expect it too be like any other 20 cal I tried with 35 Bergers. 20 cal bullet hole in and no exit.
22 hornets are fun rifles. With the sierra hornet bullet both the 40 and the 45 grain both killed amazingly well. Brass in an issue but I k'd everyone I had and resolved the issue. But fun quiet rifles they were. Great fox and cat rifle in the thick stuff.
I have run the .243 never an Ackley but I can say this. With the 80 TTSX I wouldn't be scared to use it as a fur rifle.
[ February 18, 2020, 01:55 PM: Message edited by: Brent Parker ]
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UTcaller
NEVADA NIGHT FIGHTER
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posted February 18, 2020 04:17 PM
Yeah who knows what I might have done if the Creed was around when I rebarreled my rifle. But now I have enough Brass in 22-250AI to last 2 barrels. And a hell of a lot of Berger 60 grain Hollowpoints. Bought them because it seems like Berger likes to discontinue there good Coyote bullets. Did the same with the 35 grain Bergers only wish I would have done that with the 25,30 grain Berger Match bullets in 17 Cal. Seems like everybody is looking for the heavies in Bullets these days.I have absolutely no interest it that. That’s why both my 22-250AI and my 204 Ruger have 12 Twist Barrels.
If I ever get an inclination to shoot at those Coyotes way out there, the ones I can hardly see I’ll probably built me a
25-06AI....... ![[Cool]](cool.gif)
[ February 18, 2020, 05:04 PM: Message edited by: UTcaller ]
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Leonard
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posted February 18, 2020 08:19 PM
I'll tell ya. I'm just so damned ornery, about Creedmore this and Creedmore that, that I have really dug in my heels. It just can't be that friggin' great?
And yes, Chad, I just don't feel the need for a fast twist. All of my hot 22 calibers have a 12" twist and I have zero interest in flinging lead at coyotes 600 yards away. I mean, if I have to nail a runner, ok, but I try to keep all my shots inside of 400. Also, as you mentioned, I already have a 25'06 Ackley set up for long shots at night at cats....when they are well marked.
Everybody has a different plan, but I have a pretty good idea what works for me. I could go for quite a while before I ever need another barrel. In fact, I have a spare 22-250 Ackley barrel that came with my 22-243Middlested that I haven't even bothered to screw on yet. For the life of me, I have never figured out why that man built those two barrels, same exact contour, same twist and very close to the same performance level? I would have had the switch barrel in something 20 caliber, if it was me? This man had 250 rounds through both barrels, and then he died. And these are good Shilen barrels with a medium contour.
And, another thing. I just haven't messed with suppressors yet. I'm not knocking them, but the cost is ridiculous. So is the $200 stamp and so is the unreasonable delay.
One of these days, I'm going to have every barrel I own threaded and try to use one suppresser for all of them. Might work?
Good hunting. El Bee
[ February 18, 2020, 08:22 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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