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Author Topic: What is the process to have a bolt gun built?
Aaron Rhoades
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Icon 1 posted December 31, 2014 07:05 PM      Profile for Aaron Rhoades           Edit/Delete Post 
I got Varget to average 4035 with the high being 4051 with 26.8gr but the group went horizontal, all on the same line up and down but east and west was 1 inch. Ramshot Hunter shot phenomenal but velocity was low. Loaded up some rl15 and rl17 to try tomorrow. Awful cold to be shooting, was about 15 degrees here today.
Varget
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Ramshot Hunter
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Posts: 155 | From: Washington | Registered: Oct 2012  |  IP: Logged
DanS
Scorched Earth (AZ Sector)
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Icon 1 posted December 31, 2014 08:07 PM      Profile for DanS           Edit/Delete Post 
How low fpm was Ramshot? That is a pretty sweet group. Have you tried to repeat any of those groups or messed with OAL? Just wanted to add, Mine should come fairly soon, I hope. Sent the barrel and action to the gunsmith a couple weeks ago.

I went with a #4 Lilja @ 24". Hopefully it doesn't come in over 9 lbs.

[ December 31, 2014, 08:10 PM: Message edited by: DanS ]

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Leonard
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Icon 1 posted December 31, 2014 08:11 PM      Profile for Leonard   Author's Homepage   Email Leonard         Edit/Delete Post 
I'd just stop with Ramshot, unless it's several hundred fps slower. Even then, I think accuracy is more important than velocity.

Good hunting. El Bee

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Dave Allen
Hi, I'm SUPER DAVE, IN CHARGE OF Q STUFF (and Goat Leader) "I'm really not trying to be a dick".
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Icon 1 posted December 31, 2014 08:24 PM      Profile for Dave Allen           Edit/Delete Post 
Dan & Leonard bring up excellent points.

Shooting for groups in cold weather sucks. Something else to possibly consider is warm loads in cold weather, might be a tad hot when temp's climb.

I have no idea what a max load might be for a 17-204. Just thought, I'd toss that out there.

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TOM64
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Icon 1 posted December 31, 2014 08:52 PM      Profile for TOM64           Edit/Delete Post 
Do you have any TAC to try?
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Aaron Rhoades
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Icon 1 posted December 31, 2014 09:14 PM      Profile for Aaron Rhoades           Edit/Delete Post 
Dan, the load that shot best was 29.5gr Ramshot Hunter, speed was 3807, 3765, 3804, 3792 average. Haven't messed with anything else, all are .010 shy of lands, haven't tried to repeat anything either.
Leonard, its slower than I want it to be, I would like 4000-4100. I could push the Ramshot hunter harder but not sure how much.
Tom, I do have Tac but haven't tried yet. So far I've tried H414, Varget, and Ramshot Hunter.

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Aaron Rhoades
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Icon 1 posted January 01, 2015 05:21 PM      Profile for Aaron Rhoades           Edit/Delete Post 
28.4gr RL17 gave an average of 4051fps. RL15 shot well but too slow before I got mild pressure at 26.3gr. Going to play with RL17 a little more and also have some Tac loaded for tomorrow.
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Aaron Rhoades
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Icon 1 posted January 02, 2015 07:18 PM      Profile for Aaron Rhoades           Edit/Delete Post 
I found my load, 28.3gr RL17 .010 off the lands got me a great group. Velocity was 4079. I tried TAC but my starting load(26.1) was way too high, had to tap the bolt open, primer was gone. Don't need to mess with it anymore anyway now that RL17 works well.
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knockemdown
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Icon 1 posted January 03, 2015 07:15 AM      Profile for knockemdown   Author's Homepage           Edit/Delete Post 
That looks real good!
To echo what's been said, pay extra attention to a load that's been worked up in the winter months. Although I haven't loaded much RL-17, both RL-22 & 25 are quite temp sensitive. Found that I lose ~1fps per 1°F temp swing with RL-25...

Heck, I popped .17P primers in AZ after working up a nice load with Big Game here at home in the cold. Wound up backing off only 0.2gr and accuracy was still excellent.

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Fur_n_Dirt
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Icon 1 posted January 03, 2015 02:10 PM      Profile for Fur_n_Dirt   Email Fur_n_Dirt         Edit/Delete Post 
That's the nice thing with varget, very low velocity change with temperature ...

Actually, I want some, but can't find any! :-(

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Leonard
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Icon 1 posted January 03, 2015 04:05 PM      Profile for Leonard   Author's Homepage   Email Leonard         Edit/Delete Post 
In any case, with the short barrel, I'm surprised you are getting the velocities we see.

I'd just stop with the various powders, you have accuracy and all the velocity you will ever need.

Charmed life.

Good hunting. El Bee

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Aaron Rhoades
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Icon 1 posted January 03, 2015 08:32 PM      Profile for Aaron Rhoades           Edit/Delete Post 
And I found a coyote this morning on its maiden voyage!
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Aaron Rhoades
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Icon 1 posted January 03, 2015 08:44 PM      Profile for Aaron Rhoades           Edit/Delete Post 
I'll have to keep an eye on the pressure, this load is showing no pressure signs but that doesn't mean it won't as it heats up. Is there a general rule of thumb for pressure increase per degree of temperature Fred or that is just what you noticed with your load? One thing I noticed from last Thursday to last Friday, temperature was 10-15 degrees warmer Friday and 28.4gr rl17 gave 4051fps Thursday and Friday it gave 4100fps. Only difference besides being a little warmer was I cleaned the barrel with wipeout until it came out clean(3 times) and fired 3 fouling shots before testing my loads listed above. So was it increase in temp that gave the higher velocity or the clean barrel? Or a combination of both?
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Leonard
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Icon 1 posted January 04, 2015 06:39 AM      Profile for Leonard   Author's Homepage   Email Leonard         Edit/Delete Post 
I'll have to keep an eye on the pressure, this load is showing no pressure signs but that doesn't mean it won't as it heats up.

*As long as you do your shooting in December/January, no problem, but (for sure) if you try it in the summer, there will be signs. High capacity seventeens are very susceptible to slight changes in temperature, and/or load variations. (so I've heard?)

Is there a general rule of thumb for pressure increase per degree of temperature Fred or that is just what you noticed with your load? One thing I noticed from last Thursday to last Friday, temperature was 10-15 degrees warmer Friday and 28.4gr rl17 gave 4051fps Thursday and Friday it gave 4100fps. Only difference besides being a little warmer was I cleaned the barrel with wipeout until it came out clean(3 times) and fired 3 fouling shots before testing my loads listed above. So was it increase in temp that gave the higher velocity or the clean barrel? Or a combination of both?

*All things being equal, higher ambient temperatures will show higher velocity. A clean barrel will usually indicate lower velocities. But, (in any case) three fouling shots are probably unneeded?

The thing is, circumstances being what they are, you do what you have to do, however: most people will want to develop a load in summer conditions, knowing performance will degrade in winter. Those seeking max performance, (that I know), will test winter loads, in summer, on ice. I don't think you can form any conclusions as to safe summer loads by your results in January? In June, I would start with a grain and a half reduction and work it up - that's if you have any intention of doing any shooting in summer conditions? The load you have right now is completely unknown, for summer. It could literally blow the gun up. Not probable, but cautionary. Be careful, I know you will.

Good hunting. El Bee

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DAA
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Icon 1 posted January 04, 2015 07:00 AM      Profile for DAA   Author's Homepage   Email DAA         Edit/Delete Post 
Good on ya Aaron!

That velocity increase could be half as much from simply shot to shot variation as from that small temp increase. Unless you were running multiple over the crony and those are averages? In which case, I'd say that much increase from so small a temp change is a pressure sign all unto itself.

But, there are a lot of variables at play there. Having your chrony a few feet closer or farther can easily account for some of it too.

My usual routine for cold weather development of loads that will see use in warm weather too, is put them on the defroster vents in the truck for a couple minutes, they'll get nice and toasty. Run a couple cold, couple hot, couple in between, show you everything you need to see.

- DAA

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Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter

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Aaron Rhoades
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Icon 1 posted January 04, 2015 08:19 AM      Profile for Aaron Rhoades           Edit/Delete Post 
Dave, those were 3 shot averages with a magnetspeed v3.
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knockemdown
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Icon 1 posted January 05, 2015 04:53 AM      Profile for knockemdown   Author's Homepage           Edit/Delete Post 
Congrats on gettin' a coyote down with the .17-204!
That ~1fps/1°F correlation came about after comparing my avg. velocity over a few shooting sessions with the .22-243Win. Had a great load (RL-25) worked up in the late summer, shooting in the mornings @ 65-70°F. Got good dope out to 985yds, and proved out over a few fun sessions.

Same load, shooting last January @ 600yds ~15°F temps, and was hitting consistently low. Whip out Magnetospeed, and sho-nuff, lost 55fps avg. with the same batch of reloads from previous fall...

Ballistic AE app allows for 'temp sensitivity', so I input 0.9fps/1°F as a correction. Now, when atmospheric data is entered, the program automatically adjusts MV based in temp info...

That ballistic mumbo-jumbo isn't pertinent to this thread, cept for the temp-sensitivity part of it.

And, just remembered, it wasn't AZ, but west TX/New Mexico where those primers blew. My bad!

Have fun with the new pea-shooter!!!

[ January 05, 2015, 04:54 AM: Message edited by: knockemdown ]

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Leonard
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Icon 1 posted January 05, 2015 06:08 AM      Profile for Leonard   Author's Homepage   Email Leonard         Edit/Delete Post 
I'm about to be ill, Fred!

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knockemdown
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Icon 1 posted January 05, 2015 06:44 AM      Profile for knockemdown   Author's Homepage           Edit/Delete Post 
por qué??
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Aaron Rhoades
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Icon 1 posted October 11, 2015 02:00 PM      Profile for Aaron Rhoades           Edit/Delete Post 
Put a new barrel, Pac-Nor this time, on the tikka, still a .17-.204 but with a .198 neck and 0 freebore, also went 20 inch barrel for the suppressor hanging on the end. Have about 30 rounds shot through it so far, tried the newer IMR 4451 which is supposed to be about the same burn rate as H4350 and RL17. Couldn't get enough powder in the case to get velocity, had some compressed loads, the last being compressed enough to push the bullet back out .0035 from my seating depth and still only 3840 with no pressure. Went to Varget and at 48 clicks on the harrels, got to 4028 but right at max load. 47 clicks gives 3971 so I may use that if the accuracy is there. May have to try another powder.
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Aaron Rhoades
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Icon 1 posted October 11, 2015 02:13 PM      Profile for Aaron Rhoades           Edit/Delete Post 
Also, I went back and read this thread and saw that I never stated what happened with the Douglas barrel. I sent it back, had $350 worth of chambering and threading on it, 2 weeks later I had a new barrel sitting on my porch. NO contact from them at all in the 2 weeks, just a new barrel showed up. So I ate the machining on the bad one I guess. I sold the new one to a local but I told him to slug or cast a few inches of each end before he did anything with it. He did and said it measured fine, I believe he turned it into a .17 fireball but he doesn't have it back yet.
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Aaron Rhoades
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Icon 1 posted November 17, 2015 08:09 PM      Profile for Aaron Rhoades           Edit/Delete Post 
Figured a load out for this barrel, 46 clicks of Varget on the Harrels, .232 5 shot at 100 yards, 3950fps, Norma brass, 30gr Blackhole Bullets, .010 off the lands.
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Got a 32lb coyote a week ago Monday which is big for here and got this one yesterday morning at 400 yards, my furthest with the .17-204.
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DAA
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Icon 1 posted November 18, 2015 04:14 AM      Profile for DAA   Author's Homepage   Email DAA         Edit/Delete Post 
That works!

- DAA

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Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter

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Leonard
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Icon 1 posted November 18, 2015 08:21 AM      Profile for Leonard   Author's Homepage   Email Leonard         Edit/Delete Post 
Yeah, I'd say the accuracy is more than acceptable and the velocity is certainly workable enough for 400 yards on coyotes. I'm a little lost on the bullet used, never heard of Blackhole bullets. Is it a HP?

I'm not a big fan of a 17 bore employed as a long range coyote rifle, but as a start, it seems to be adequate? I mean, did he flop around, did he run, or was this 400 yarder a bang/flop?

Good hunting. El Bee

PS by the way, I personally like the pelt on that coyote hanging there. Some people like a more uniform "heavy pale" but I like that one.

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Posts: 26625 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
Aaron Rhoades
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Icon 1 posted November 18, 2015 05:28 PM      Profile for Aaron Rhoades           Edit/Delete Post 
Blackholes 30's that I'm using are flatbase hollow points and they have been working real well for me. Blaine made me a 32gr rebated boat tail but he only made me one. I would like to have a pile of those to try but I think he doesn't really want to make them, said something about 5 extra steps. Anyway the coyote tipped right over, my younger brother, not the one on this board, claims that it was bang flop, flop, flop, flop, flop and so on but I never saw that. I saw bang, flop, done. I do know that it didn't run, may have wiggled a little.

PS: the younger brother mentioned is a confirmed .17 centerfire hater. He really loves them but won't admit it!

Pps: this coyote was taking a crap broadside to me when I shot her so I put the crosshairs above her head a few inches and hit her about dead center of body and a little bit high, wasn't the best hit. It did pass through however. That probably accounts for the wiggling.

[ November 18, 2015, 05:45 PM: Message edited by: Aaron Rhoades ]

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