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Author
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Topic: What is the process to have a bolt gun built?
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KaBloomR
Knows what it's all about
Member # 4252
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posted December 20, 2014 08:05 AM
Sorry man, should have been paying better attention......
Is the muzzle end undersized as well?
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"It always gets a helluva lot worse before it gets any better"
Posts: 302 | From: Utah | Registered: Nov 2012
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Aaron Rhoades
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Member # 4234
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posted December 20, 2014 08:20 AM
I'm not sure, the lead slug I drove back and forth 4 times I think before it would move somewhat by hand. The bullet was driven in from the chamber end and out the muzzle. I was thinking about trying to cast 2-3 inches of the muzzle end with cerrosafe to see if its the same, I don't know if I would be able to knock it out though.
Posts: 155 | From: Washington | Registered: Oct 2012
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KaBloomR
Knows what it's all about
Member # 4252
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posted December 20, 2014 08:44 AM
I was just wondering as the pic of the slug appears to have more pronounced detail of the rifling. With the issues you have already found, it probably would be best if you can get those involved to make things right and bring this rifle up to your expectations. Please keep us posted.
Forgot to add: Was the gunsmith able to find a borescope?
[ December 20, 2014, 09:02 AM: Message edited by: KaBloomR ]
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"It always gets a helluva lot worse before it gets any better"
Posts: 302 | From: Utah | Registered: Nov 2012
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted December 20, 2014 09:01 AM
I just read the entire thread; you know old guys with nothing better to do?
First of all, these guys are really trying to help and I think the advice is extremely well intended.
Second, your choice of 17-204 and a Douglas Chrome/Moly barrel, (even if perfect), I would question? Some people like them, I owned one YEARS ago, but I don't care, like Dave said, you really should invest in a stainless barrel, for starters. Then get clever with twist and the number of grooves and button rifled, cut or whatever the Peanut Gallery recommends?
More or less, you will end up losing on this deal. I don't think Douglas has a leg to stand on and your gunsmith needs to explain exactly how he acquired this barrel. So, take your pieces and find a different 'smith, if it helps your attitude. But, you are out the labor and I wouldn't expect much charity from this guy.
Douglas, through the gunsmith or through your personal involvement probably wouldn't offer a refund. You would get a new barrel and (to me) that's a situation like kissing your sister. I apologize to you Douglas fans out there.
So, if everybody raves about Lilja and17 barrels, that's a big clue. I'd ask Dave what he prefers as far as type of grooves and the number. He might not be the GURU on 17's but he will do, until one comes along.
As has been said, this sucks!
Good hunting. El Bee
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31465 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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KaBloomR
Knows what it's all about
Member # 4252
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posted December 20, 2014 09:12 AM
It certainly does suck. Investing in a custom build for me would be a "saving up for" project, and I'd be really pissed off ending up with a rifle that couldn't even get bullets to the target. Hope things work out with the most minimal time and expense.
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"It always gets a helluva lot worse before it gets any better"
Posts: 302 | From: Utah | Registered: Nov 2012
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Aaron Rhoades
Knows what it's all about
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posted December 20, 2014 09:29 AM
All along I was pretty sure it was a barrel problem, not a gunsmith problem, but I was willing to explore anything to get an answer. Some local guys were telling me I was loading too close to the lands, another was telling me to try different primers, so on and so forth. As well as the suggestions here that were a great help and I checked up on everything I could. Since in my mind I was sure it was the barrel, and now it seems I have irrefutable proof, I ordered a stainless Lilja .17, 4 groove, 9twist and it showed up at the gunsmith a few days ago. Other than that, the only changes I made was I went with a #3 contour and went with a 22 inch length. Shorter length because I'm gambling that I can get the speeds I want with the new barrel. Kabloomer, the gunsmith borescoped it and told me he can't find a problem. During this process I found a good borescope for a good price and I looked at it myself yesterday and it looks fine to me. BUT, I don't really know what I'm looking for as I am no expert. Bottom line is, I bet my problems go away with the Lilja and everything works beautifully. Tell you what though, sure makes me a little gunshy about buying barrels now! I can see it now, new barrel shows up, slug it, cast it, borescope it, measure it, before it ever goes to the gunsmith. Hopefully the Lilja is as good as the Douglas was bad.
Posts: 155 | From: Washington | Registered: Oct 2012
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted December 20, 2014 09:52 AM
Ok, where can I get a good deal on a borescope?
edit: oh, used?
[ December 20, 2014, 09:53 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31465 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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TOM64
Knows what it's all about
Member # 561
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posted December 20, 2014 09:54 AM
I may be the only Douglas fan here but both of mine and the other few I've been around have shot just fine. But bad ones are bound to pop up. Even Dave has a slow Lija I believe.
Anyway barrels are cheap, get a good one and start forgetting about this one.
BTW, I killed a coyote this morning with my 204 and 35 gr Berger, he died just about like he was supposed to. Made me wonder if we spend too much time searching for the "best" caliber...
Posts: 2283 | From: okieland | Registered: Feb 2005
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Aaron Rhoades
Knows what it's all about
Member # 4234
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posted December 20, 2014 09:55 AM
Craiglist! $450 for Hawkeye slim 17" with eyepiece and 90* mirror. Only thing is, can't use the 90* in .17 cal, will work in .204 though.
Posts: 155 | From: Washington | Registered: Oct 2012
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Aaron Rhoades
Knows what it's all about
Member # 4234
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posted December 20, 2014 09:57 AM
Tom, even though I am having problems, there never was a accuracy problem. It shot great, pretty much no matter what it was fed shot under .5moa.
Posts: 155 | From: Washington | Registered: Oct 2012
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted December 20, 2014 09:58 AM
That kinda makes up for eating a bad barrel.
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31465 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Prune Picker
AR Forum Assistant Moderator-handgun GURU and dispenser of sage advice
Member # 4107
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posted December 20, 2014 10:38 AM
F.W.I.W. I mic'd some old Berger 18gr. & 20gr. v max's. The Bergers measured .1722, the v max's floated around from .1719 to .1725 with a couple that measured .1727, probably the last box of horny rifle bullets I will ever buy. All bullets aren't created equal, and yeah I've got a hardon for hornady and piss poor quality control. Point being if you're looking for consistency, measure all of your bullets regardless of make.
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mike
Posts: 1265 | From: "Oklahomie" | Registered: Mar 2012
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UTcaller
NEVADA NIGHT FIGHTER
Member # 8
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posted December 20, 2014 10:53 AM
Tom64, That little .204 with the 35 grain Berger is one of the good ones for sure. I own 2 and it still amazes me how well it kills coyotes out to 300 yards. Even with its shitty B.C.lol
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted December 20, 2014 11:23 AM
Knowing how punch presses work, I'm really puzzled as to how there could be such a wide difference, especially in diameter.
I can see, and understand a warn out die. And, if quality control is asleep, then you get a bad batch out the door. But, good and bad, all in the same box, (I assume?) seems difficult to account for?
I have used a fair number of Hornady bullets in the past, and never mic'd any of them. All were used in a hunting application and I never have had a problem with accuracy, but I think I have only used them in 22, 24 and 30 caliber?
That's starting to get more anal than I like; measuing bullets.
Good hunting. El Bee
edit: I have had high confidence in the 53 grain .224" Hornady match bullet and it always killed well, for me.
[ December 20, 2014, 11:25 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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Prune Picker
AR Forum Assistant Moderator-handgun GURU and dispenser of sage advice
Member # 4107
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posted December 20, 2014 12:35 PM
LB, according to the source (Berger) 17's are hard to keep consistent, or use to be. I was told that copper consistency has as much to do with it as anything. Many years ago when 17's first showed up Speer offered a 25gr. H.P. that could drive ya nuts, they (Speer) dropped that bullet pretty fast then Hornady made their old style 25gr. H.P. for Remington factory 17 Remington ammo, same problem but more pencil thru's than blowups with lots of copper fouling. Until Berger and a couple other small (at the time) bullet makers offered the first consistent 17 cal bullets, it just wasn't worth messing with. Finally I just went back to the .223 & 22-250 until around 2000, then I revisited the 17's again because Berger offered numerous bullets that were consistent from lot to lot, all was fine until they started changing the names and box colors, finally I just said "I'm done with the 17". Back to Hornady, its no secret that their lot to lot bullet tolerance varies, but in fairness the prices of copper bounces around like a golf ball on concrete. Someone mentioned the Speer .224 52 gr. H.P., that bullet has been around for 40+ yrs. and quality hasn't changed any from the ones I've used since 1970ish but it doesn't have a plastic tip so people tend to ignore them. Between the Speer 52gr. and the 53gr. Sierra, I have killed a bunch of critters in .223 rem & 22-250 up close and far away and they just worked even with an allegedly low B.C. that must be similar to a rock.
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mike
Posts: 1265 | From: "Oklahomie" | Registered: Mar 2012
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted December 20, 2014 12:46 PM
Yes, that's pretty much all I used in Swift, Speer 52 Gold Match and Hornady 53 Match. Speer quit making the Gold and I began using the hornady 53 flat base, after dinking around with the Sierra 52, 53, and the 52 Horn.
Forgot that I have use a number of Hornady pistol bullets in 38, 44 and 45 caliber. Never weighed any of those, either?
Good hunting. El Bee
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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Prune Picker
AR Forum Assistant Moderator-handgun GURU and dispenser of sage advice
Member # 4107
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posted December 20, 2014 01:11 PM
For me the XTP pistol bullets are good to go, I use them in 38's, 41, 44, 45 cals. when I want a jacketed bullet running 1k & up bullet speeds. When reloading for a revolver I use lead about 99% of the time in the above mentioned cals, but I try to keep the velocities below the leading line (1k f.p.s.). My most used cal. is 38spl using a cast (soft/pure lead) 158gr. H.P. SWC (Speer #4628) it expands well and doesn't ring my ears at 900-950f.p.s.
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mike
Posts: 1265 | From: "Oklahomie" | Registered: Mar 2012
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knockemdown
Our staff photo editing Guru, par excellence
Member # 3588
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posted December 22, 2014 04:59 AM
Sorry to read of your barrel woes, Aaron. But at least you've got it figgered out and are on your way to screwing on a new Lilja.
Looking forward to seeing this project come to a happy ending...
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Aaron Rhoades
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posted December 27, 2014 08:25 PM
Version #2. Almost same specs but with 9 twist stainless Lilja, #3 contour and 22 inches. Now 9 lbs 2 oz. Was ready Tuesday but just went and got it today.
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knockemdown
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posted December 30, 2014 06:48 AM
Looks pretty cool to me, Aaron!
Please let me know how those rounds feed from the magazine, will ya?
PT&G finally came out with a DBM for the Model Seven and I have one on the way to try out. If it works well, I'll be installing one on my .17Predator and using a polymer AICS .223 mag for it.
And keep us up to date with a range & kill report!
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Aaron Rhoades
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posted December 30, 2014 06:56 AM
Fred, someone asked me the other night if it feeds good and I said lets try it out. Put some rounds in the mag and ran the bolt fast as I could. Everything worked smooth and flawless. I wish they made a 5 round mag or 7 even, something shorter so it doesn't hang down so far. I think it would look better and be out of the way more.
[ December 30, 2014, 06:59 AM: Message edited by: Aaron Rhoades ]
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knockemdown
Our staff photo editing Guru, par excellence
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posted December 30, 2014 08:47 AM
That's good to know, thanks!
I'm not real keen on the gawky 10rd mag, either. A stubby 3 or 5rd .223 mag would be ideal.
PT&G does make another style DBM that uses AR-15 mags, but I'd rather stay with the AICs based mags...
I love the heck outta my .17PRedator, but have "banana-jammed" a few rounds when feeding from the blind mag, so a single feed magazine might be solution.
Hope she shoots for ya, good luck!
P.S. cute little Kahles on top...Helia CL?
[ December 30, 2014, 08:50 AM: Message edited by: knockemdown ]
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Aaron Rhoades
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posted December 30, 2014 06:04 PM
Older version I believe Fred, KX 3.5-10x50. Also shot the gun today, started with H414 at 27.5gr, velocity 3762, went to 28.3gr and got 3869. Looks like I won't get the speed I want with 414. Went to Varget, started at 25gr, velocity 3763, went to 26gr and got 3913. I'm going to take the Varget higher and see if I can get 4050. Also loaded up some Ramshot Hunter to try. I have other powders to try also but not the two I need most. By the way, no pressure signs!!! No other problems either.
[ December 30, 2014, 06:14 PM: Message edited by: Aaron Rhoades ]
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knockemdown
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posted December 31, 2014 11:33 AM
Cool deal!
I'd say if you're crowding 4K from a 22" tube, you're doing something.
Big Game is all I ever tried in the .17P, ~4080fps from a 24" Lilja...
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Paul Melching
Radical Operator Forum "You won't get past the front gate"
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posted December 31, 2014 02:22 PM
Good luck Aaron sounds like you found what you were looking for , I have thoroughly enjoyed this thread.
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