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Author
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Topic: Long range - 243 or 6.5 creedmoor
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Z
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posted January 24, 2015 12:12 PM
Want to shoot a little long range(1000). Don't need or want custom. I have plenty of guns on both sides of these two, but don't have either one of these. Would like recommendations and opinions regarding ballistics, twist rates, etc. Could be used for coyote hunting. Thanks in advance.
Posts: 51 | From: Bluffdale, UT | Registered: Feb 2004
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CrossJ
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posted January 24, 2015 05:49 PM
6. 5 for long range steel. Both will kill coyotes.I am assuming you are buying factory. 243 factory barrel won't be fast enough twist.I hated my 6. 5 Creedmoor. Will you be reloading? In my opinion, coyote rifles and long range rifles are two different animals.
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Z
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posted January 24, 2015 06:54 PM
I forgot to mention that I am a reloader. Why did you hate your creedmoor?
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knockemdown
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posted January 24, 2015 09:17 PM
quote:
Don't need or want custom
Please explain?
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Z
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posted January 24, 2015 09:34 PM
Knockemdown, what I meant was I just want an off-the-shelf rifle. Don't need to go the custom route.
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knockemdown
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posted January 24, 2015 10:37 PM
Gotcha.
You're gonna find yourself very limited, then. As Geordie pointed out with the .243Win, there really aren't many factory rifles spec'ed with a fast enough barrel twist to run "long range" bullets...
A factory Rem 700 Varmint in .243Win has a 1:9.25tw barrel, so your best chance is to shoot </=95VLDs fast enough to make 'em work at distance.
I burnt a factory Rem .243 barrel out with 87Vmaxs & H4350, and those suckers shot fairly well out to 700yds. After sending it off to GAP, came back with a .243Win Match chamber & 1:7.5tw Rock 5r barrel, it was throwing 115DTACs @3080. That is legit long range capable performance, ooodles better than what a factory twisted tube could hope to achieve...
6.5Creed is prolly the most logical option for getting a factory built rifle that is "long range ready" out of the box...
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Kokopelli
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posted January 25, 2015 07:50 AM
The phrase `50BMG` comes to mind.
![[Cool]](cool.gif)
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Leonard
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posted January 25, 2015 08:47 AM
From what I "know" of the Creedmore, that's all it is, designed around long range target shooting. The case capacity is limited, just enough for launching those long aerodynamic bullets, which may or may not be suitable for actually killing anything.
An off the shelf 243 can use 100 grain bullets, or pricy 105's and I don't know if it actually has enough energy for 1000 yards or not? My 243Ackley, I never found out? Never got past 600, since my club doesn't have facilities for beyond that range.
But, you can walk out of the store with a 270 and it might be no worse? In fact, just buying a rifle off the shelf suitable for shooting coyotes at 1000 yards, just about every store is going to have a 300 WM on the rack, and that round with proper bullets can do the job.
Somebody once chambered a custom bench gun in 30-30Winchester, just to prove that it wasn't an inaccurate POS. You can make do with just about anything but we all have reasons for that safe full of rifles. They are all different and all do the same thing, only different.
Lastly, everybody has a dream. We will never get agreement on the ideal rifle/cartridge combination. Good luck with that!
Oh, sudden thought. Any 243 is still a useful gun, suitable for squirrels to deer. I think that's why it's so popular? The problem is specific applications, and (arbitrarily) specific cartridges.
Actually, I wouldn't have a Creedmore if it was given to me, so there's that?
Good hunting. El Bee
[ January 25, 2015, 09:07 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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CrossJ
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posted January 25, 2015 08:49 AM
Z....Fred summed it up well. I couldn't write much earlier because I was traveling. Fred expanded on what I wanted to say.....I knew he would. I guess my next question is 'what do you really want to do?'. Do you just want to shoot at 1000yd steel and walk in impacts on a calm day? Or, are you after a legitimate long range rifle that scores a first round impact at 1000yds? If its the first, my guess is you already have something in the safe that will do this.
Shooting at those distances is more about bullet weight and BC than it is about chamberings. "Heavy for caliber" bullets with high bc's is what is needed, along with consistant velocities over high velocities. As was stated, most factory off the shelf rifles won't offer enough twist. Thats why your comment about 'no custom' puzzled me.
As for my 6.5 creedmore....the chambering is a pretty good one(there are better), but the brass and factory ammo sucks. Very inconsistent. That said, I know several people shooting them and doing well, but they all reload and they sort their brass....and then sort some more. I yanked the barrel off of mine and sent it to the tomato stake pile. It is now being fitted with a new tube in 6.5x47L. If it shoots as good as my 6x47L I will be very pleased.
Fast twist and heavy bullets with high bc...you live and die by the wind. What glass will you run? Be careful, this gets addicting....and expensive.
Maintain
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DAA
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posted January 25, 2015 10:00 AM
I was only bitten by the long range bug for a brief time. And never had any interest in target shooting, at all. I wanted to shoot long range colony varmints.
Got into it just long, hot and heavy enough to have some success on the half mile plus p-dogs and 'chucks. But, once I started hitting them at that range, I immediately lost interest. Like, after two days...
But, what little I learned while gearing up and pursuing it - is exactly what Fred and Geordie are saying. B.C., B.C., consistent velocity, GOOD mechanically reliable glass (which you must verify - trust nothing!). And at that time, and I don't think this has changed, factory barrels were not part of the conversation - at all.
I'd look into one of the suitably configured Savage's and swap a barrel onto it in the chambering of your choice, for "just a few dollars more", rather than limit yourself to factory only. By the time you buy a scope and mounts suitable for 1,000 yd. work, the cost of a pre-chambered custom barrel for a Savage will seem like peanuts, in the grand scheme.
Unless, like Geordie asked, you just want to be able to do some casual 1,000 steel banging, on a nice day, in which case I bet he's right that you do already have something that could do that okay. Or, get the Creedmore, it sounds like it could handle that just fine in factory form too.
For what I think you are talking about, I would not even consider the .243. The .260 maybe, or even the .308, but not the .243.
Just some random blabbering...
- DAA
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Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter
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Z
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posted January 25, 2015 10:07 AM
Thanks everyone for your input. Anybody else. Don't be shy. A 6 x 47 or 6.5 x 47 would be more of a custom round wouldn't it. I guess I can buy a barrel and have it put on. 1000 yard steel is what it would be mainly used for, but as educated as coyotes are nowadays and as far out as they hang up I might want to take it out sometime. For coyotes I already have a 17 Rem, 223, and 22-250. I have a 308 with a 26" barrel that will shoot lights out, but there are better long range calibers. I was shooting long range steel a couple of months ago and a guy came to the range with a 338 Lapua in the savage long range version. Had a brake on the end with high dollar glass on it. After a while he asked if I wanted to shoot it. I said, "are you crazy. I didn't come out here to get beat up". He said with the brake on it it wouldn't recoil much more than my 308. He was right. I shot it a number of times with 250 grain bullets and it was just fine. However, I don't want a 338 Lapua and spend all that money on a gun, brass, and bullets. Something a little milder would be just fine. Let's keep the discussion going.
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Aznative
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posted January 25, 2015 11:03 AM
Get a sako TRG 22 or TRG 42. TRG 22 comes in .308 only. The TRG 42 comes in 300 win mag or 338 lapua. Any of these would be a good 1000 yarder.
I know I'm not helping you with the two calibers you are interested in, but these guns are factory available in two common calibers with the 338 lapua being the uncommon cartridge. It is the way I would go if I wished to shoot that far.
Good Luck
[ January 25, 2015, 11:07 AM: Message edited by: Aznative ]
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TOM64
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posted January 25, 2015 11:53 AM
I'm a noobie at long range and our range only goes to 800 yards but so far what we've found out is any cartridge is doable as long as your scope has enough elevation and you have a solid reference for windage in the reticle. And if you move the scope 16.5 MOA, it better move 16.5 moa. That is the weakest point in LR shooting.
George Gardner runs a 243 and 115 Dtac's at 3150 fps. That's a .585 BC moving along fast enough to beat out the 260 and any 308 out there. It will require a fast twist.
The only way I'd do a 6.5 would be in a long action with a big case. Our buddy built a 6.5-284 and my 243ai with 105 Amax's beats it at least to 800. He can't get the velocity he needs.
Heck a 7-08 with a 162 Amax would be hard to beat in a short action factory gun not to mention the 7 mag running the same bullet. Throw a SWFA super chicken 10x mil quad scope on it and get to ringing steel for cheap.
[ January 25, 2015, 11:54 AM: Message edited by: TOM64 ]
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knockemdown
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posted January 26, 2015 05:05 AM
Dave brought up a good one in the .260Rem.
Tikka makes a CTR and a T3 Varmint that are posta be real good shooters, outta the box. And the "one size fits all" Tikka action will allow you to seat high b.c. bullets long enough from a .260 to make the best use of the available powder capacity...
When constrained to a short action, the .260 is hamstrung by c.o.a.l. when loading high b.c. (long azz) bullets. Basically, the bullet needs seated so deep, that it infringes on case capacity. In that regard, a 6.5Creed can match the performance of the .260 from a short action...
Two remedies to make the .260 reach all its potential:
1. load long and single feed
2. run it from a long action
All Tikkas ARE long actions, so option #2 is already covered for ya!
Just another option to explore.
FYI, Geordie talked me into a 6x47L, least I'm blaming him for it!!!
[ January 26, 2015, 05:08 AM: Message edited by: knockemdown ]
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Z
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posted January 26, 2015 08:17 AM
Thanks Knockemdown. I just don't get the big deal with the 6 x 47. Can you enlighten me please.
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Leonard
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posted January 26, 2015 08:57 AM
I'm kinda in the dark on that one, myself?
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knockemdown
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posted January 26, 2015 09:18 AM
For me, a 6mm is filling a niche that my .243Win Match used to occupy. A 6x47L can push a high b.c. Berger 105Hybrid fast enough to make ya smile. Not "magic" per say, but the 6x47L can do it from a short barrel, and on a modest appetite. IE, it's an efficient mofo...
Was burning 47+gr of powder to fuel my .243Win/115DTACs from a 26" barrel. Pushing a 105Hybrid from a 6x47L needs ~40gr to net 3000+ And it can do that from 4" less barrel.
For a pure LR rig, it might not be anything special. But, as practical match rifle, the attributes of performance & ergos that the 6x47L allow for are hard to beat. And that's the niche I'm about to fill with it. Nestled right between the .22-243AI and 6.5SAUM.
But it's still Geordie's fault!
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Rifleshooter
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posted January 26, 2015 10:24 AM
A nice 243 will reach out to the magic 1000 yard mark, as will the 6.5X47. However you will get your ass handed to you if you try to shoot it in a 1000 yard match and expect to hang with the big dogs. The 6BR will get the job done if your shooting in the tunnel ranges like they have in MT. In most other ranges it takes a 6.5X284 or similar to be competitive. No matter how many shooters at the match, someone is always last, and you can bet you butt 75% of the time he's shooting some off the wall cartridge
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CrossJ
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posted January 26, 2015 12:20 PM
Fred summed it up very well. The 6x47L does its job a little more efficiently than other 6mm cartridges in that class(what I would call mid range 6mm).
I have every reason to believe that when I get my 6.5x47 back, it will perform equally as efficient and as consistent as the 6x47 did(but pushing a 140 hybrid instead of 105 of course). This is replacing my 6.5 creed. The x47L case design is very efficient and the lapua brass is very consistent.
Fred, I was running 40.1g h4350 and got velocities well over what I expected. I am backing off my load some and want to fall in that 3050 to 3150fps range.
I will take the blame, because you are going to really like this cartridge. Did your smith get the reamer specs? Mine is the third rifle built off of that reamer, and all shoot lights out.
Maintain
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Prune Picker
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posted January 26, 2015 01:56 PM
While I freely admit to never have shot a 6x47Lapua, I continue to scratch my head over all the hoopla it gets. From the drawings it is a semi improved 22-250,250Savage or 300Savage case. Am I wrong? Shooting a high pressure load is something we all probably do as reloader's but playing the case capacity vs high pressure game is usually won by the biggest case when pressures are equal regardless. if I wanted to build a long range paper puncher or gong ringer it would be a 22x6mmAI or 22x284 or the 6mm equivalents, because I could use it to take varmints also. If I wanted something to shoot larger things it would start with a 30 something cal in a long barrel and heavy stock. Az mentioned the Sako TRG in 300win mag & 338 Lapua, I have shot both and they were the cheapest way (cost wise) I am aware of in a factory rife. A muzzle brake for long strings of 230+ gr bullets is/was a must for me, but not everyone can or will tolerate one. Good luck with your project.
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Leonard
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posted January 26, 2015 02:37 PM
Just "Lapua" in the name is worth quite a few points. I'm pretty sure I don't need one, but no doubt, 6X47L has some fans.
What does it do, better than anything else, I'm still not clear on that? As far as filling in numerical gaps, I have 223AI, 22-250AI, 22-243Mid., 243Win., and 243AI, plus 25'06AI. I don't have tremendous interest in dedicated 1000 yard rigs, I'm more geared towards live targets; killing stuff.
Especially, hard core competitive target shooting. I would rather pursue it as a personal accomplishment, like a good shit. Not that I haven't engaged in competition, frequently, in fact.
I don't care how others entertain themselves, but include me out. Okay, maybe a 338, if I got a bug up my ass but I give that a 10% chance of happening - no, 2%. Maybe 1%? <
What were we talking about?
Good hunting. El Bee
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knockemdown
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posted January 26, 2015 04:26 PM
PRS matches are gaining popularity, and fast efficient 6 and 6.5mms are where it's at. Precision Rifle Series, cartridges
One thing worth noting, is that these precision rifle comps enforce 'speed limit' rules of 3100-3150 fps to keep the playing field level. Fast 6mms like the 243AI offer more speed than what's legal, so you're burning powder And introducing recoil for no net benefit. Hence, the trending toward cases that launch a high b.c. bullet at "legal" speed, and no more...
Getting away from the OP's question now, and like I said, the 6x47L isn't doing anything magical. It's just very good at launching a 105Hybrid fast enough and accurate enough to be a real contender in the precision rifle comp game. As to how it translates into long range shooting in general, the 6x47L is just another option for a reloader to consider...
If I didn't have a 6.5Shamwow and 7WSM, I'd be looking hard at doing a 7WSM on a long action. Launch a 180VLD @3100, and you've got a rifle capable of shooting well beyond 1,000yds.
Oh and Leonard, you don't want a .338, you want a .300 Norma Mag!!!
[ January 26, 2015, 04:30 PM: Message edited by: knockemdown ]
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Leonard
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posted January 26, 2015 05:08 PM
If I buy anything over 30 cal. And, I have a nice 300WM for thirty years or so, which really is all I need. But, I might like a 375H&H, if I saw a deal I couldn't resist. Maybe I'm not done with Africa? ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
I had no idea about a velocity restriction? How do they enforce that? I could come up with an accuracy load for the 243AI that might hover under 3150. Who the hell came up with that idea anyway? Already sounds like too much control freak tinkering than I care for.
Good hunting. El Bee
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
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CrossJ
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posted January 26, 2015 07:16 PM
quote:
and like I said, the 6x47L isn't doing anything magical. It's just very good at launching a 105Hybrid fast enough and accurate enough to be a real contender in the precision rifle comp game. As to how it translates into long range shooting in general, the 6x47L is just another option for a reloader to consider.
As usual, Fred covered it well. Is the 6x47L a magical cartridge? No!. Does it fill a niche and meet the requirements I am looking for? Absolutely. A match will require anywhere from 150 to 250 rounds. Each target (generally) is two shots....being able to see trace or impact is crucial in being able to make corrections and salvaging points. The 6x47L works for what I want.
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