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Author
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Topic: A Cop's Perspective
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4949shooter
SECOND PLACE HIGGINS (MAGNUM P.I.) LOOK A LIKE CONTEST
Member # 3530
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posted June 11, 2011 03:49 PM
quote:
As far as the war crimes....you can paint it however you like with your legal paintbrush but those guys are being convicted because they murdered millions of innocent people.......I refuse to let the numbers reach the millions before I start screaming....sorry bro
That's fine but you are quick to call foul when you don't have all the facts.
Waco and Ruby Ridge were incidents mishandled by law enforcement. This I acknowledge. I am not certain this latest incident was mishandled, and the more facts come in the more I am starting to see it from the LE side. By the way, I did remain objective from the beginning, before the warrant was released. With more facts I am now admittedly biased.
Posts: 2274 | From: New Jersey | Registered: Dec 2009
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4949shooter
SECOND PLACE HIGGINS (MAGNUM P.I.) LOOK A LIKE CONTEST
Member # 3530
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posted June 11, 2011 03:52 PM
quote:
What ever happen to just letting the perp leave the house then go in and make youre search and then pick the guy up on the street or before he enters the house. This way he is in plane site for a easey pickup and no bystanders get hurt
Tim I think because this was a search warrant and not an arrest warrant. They had no charges to pick the guy up on.
Posts: 2274 | From: New Jersey | Registered: Dec 2009
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TOM64
Knows what it's all about
Member # 561
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posted June 11, 2011 04:09 PM
"What I am doing is pointing out that other LEO's have seen the same attitudes as I have seen here."
Ummm Hello, it's called us vs. them, we already knew what your "brothers" would see and feel. We see it everyday.
Your cop attitude is elitist and you forget who you work for just like the guys here who are trying for a new govt grant, they're working traffic pretty hard so they can get some more govt cheese... As alluded to in another thread, one day your training to follow orders will be tested.
God help us.
Posts: 2283 | From: okieland | Registered: Feb 2005
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4949shooter
SECOND PLACE HIGGINS (MAGNUM P.I.) LOOK A LIKE CONTEST
Member # 3530
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posted June 11, 2011 04:29 PM
Well Tom I am glad you feel that way.
But, if I were truly an "us vs. them" kinda guy, there is no way in hell I could stay in this forum and put up with the shit I have had to deal with.
Think about it.
Posts: 2274 | From: New Jersey | Registered: Dec 2009
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CCP
Knows what it's all about
Member # 913
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posted June 11, 2011 04:31 PM
Ok so most LEO's are in line with the officers involved in this??
In talking to other LEO what percentage of LEO agree with using the Swat to execute the search and executing it in the manner it was based on the written word of the warrant?
I know you guys cant give us an exact percentage but your best educated guess would be?
Posts: 117 | From: SouthEastern united states | Registered: Jul 2006
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted June 11, 2011 04:54 PM
49, I really try to see your point of view. In all seriousness, the police mindset appears just as closed to our opinions.
I think it is perfectly understandable, that other police see the same as you do. That does not mean, and you should not find comfort in general agreement.
You place tremendous value on the assumed facts. We know that some statements were inaccurate. I have no reason to believe the scenario we have been told.
Was he crouched in the hallway with his weapon pointed at the stormtroopers? Why assume that? If this guy was a former Marine, seen combat, etc., why did he have his safety on, if it is true, that he was pointing his AR directly at these officers?
Besides, it wouldn't be the first time they kicked a weapon closer to the body, by accident.
I will be truthful. I do not accept police statements as factual, on faith alone.
I have seen a cop lie as to material facts. Let me repeat, I know a certain LA sheriff's deputy lied in one case, and the same guy shot and killed a teenager behind his house, down in the canyon, in Via Verde area of San Dimas, which was a part of the Bonelli wilderness area.
My brother-in-law, Stanton PD and formerly with Orange County Sheriff's, and well connected..... was this kid's step father.
But, on the other issue, he flat out lied about a situation that was directly across the canyon from his property. I happened to be there and I know the guy lied in his statement concerning separate events in the same canyon while he was on a leave of absence due to the other case.
So, it is possible for a police officer to lie, if it serves his purposes.
Is it possible that the dead guy wasn't pointing his weapon at the police until the lead started flying? Well, we don't know, do we? It could be completely innocent. The cop involved was mistaken and the other guy was unable to provide a statement while he bled out.
I see a situation where we can't agree, based on the facts that have been made available. Policemen see a justified shooting.
Some of us start to wonder at the events leading up to the killing. And, because of initial questions about procedures, we don't understand everything that happened in those 30 critical seconds, either.
I see law enforcement's position, I understand it. But, there are other people not connected with Law Enforcement that do not see things the same way. I don't understand why the police officers cannot concede the civilian point of view?
I see no concrete facts to support the law enforcement opinion of justified? The only thing we KNOW is they knocked the door down and hosed this guy. I have no idea if it was justified, JUST BECAUSE THEY TELL US THAT HE POINTED A WEAPON AT THEM.
As I said above, when push comes to shove, a cop will lie just as convincingly as Congressman Weiner.
Good hunting. LB ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31462 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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4949shooter
SECOND PLACE HIGGINS (MAGNUM P.I.) LOOK A LIKE CONTEST
Member # 3530
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posted June 11, 2011 05:40 PM
Yes Leonard, some cops do lie, just like the rest of mankind.
So, are we to assume that since some cops elswehere in the country lied that these paticular SWAT cops lied also? What is wrong with waiting for all the facts to come out before we start accusing these guys of being a Nazi death squad?
Posts: 2274 | From: New Jersey | Registered: Dec 2009
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4949shooter
SECOND PLACE HIGGINS (MAGNUM P.I.) LOOK A LIKE CONTEST
Member # 3530
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posted June 11, 2011 05:46 PM
quote:
Ok so most LEO's are in line with the officers involved in this??
In talking to other LEO what percentage of LEO agree with using the Swat to execute the search and executing it in the manner it was based on the written word of the warrant?
I know you guys cant give us an exact percentage but your best educated guess would be?
CCP, I can't answer for the other LEO's as to the beginning of these threads because we had less facts. But with the information we now have, yes, I think most LEO's will believe this operation to be proper.
Posts: 2274 | From: New Jersey | Registered: Dec 2009
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted June 11, 2011 06:08 PM
And, I think it's fair to say that John Q Citizen may still harbor a few doubts and has empathy in putting themselves in the shoes of the dead guy and truly wondering if anything they would have done would have gotten themselves killed just as dead. It's hard for me to envision a plan where I would have survived, in the same situation. I think the guy's fate was sealed with a knock on the door.
Now, a cop might say; well he caused it. The turd is to blame for his own death.
I think most gun owners would think they would be fucked if it was their house and they just woke up to screaming and yelling. Owning that rifle contributed to the man's death, sure as hell.
gh/lb
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31462 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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knockemdown
Our staff photo editing Guru, par excellence
Member # 3588
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posted June 11, 2011 06:11 PM
quote:
But, if I were truly an "us vs. them" kinda guy, there is no way in hell I could stay in this forum and put up with the shit I have had to deal with.
Think about it.
Nick, ya can't bullshit a bullshitter.
You LOVE this back & forth, so don't play the "I'm gettin' dogpiled, but I'll martyr myself for the cause" card here.
It makes you look like an idiot.
Seriously...
And especially so since YOU are the one who continually STARTS these threads and draws fire upon yourself.
helllloooooo???
By bringing these topics up, us 'turd' civilians are expressing a fundamental problem with how more & more LEOs are conducting themselves, both on and off the clock.
You can't blame that on media hype, its HAPPENING.
And shrugging off murdering a citizen in his own home under the guise of swat protocol is fukkin' ABSURD.
Can you blame us 'turds' for bitching about it?
Heck, every one of us schmucks owns guns & if some SWAT team busted OUR door in, we'd be just as dead as that poor fella gunned down in his underbritchs.
Read that last sentence again & see if that sinks in any?
EDIT: typing the same thing you were, Leonard!
[ June 11, 2011, 06:18 PM: Message edited by: knockemdown ]
Posts: 2202 | From: behind fascist lines | Registered: Mar 2010
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JD
HONORARY OKIE .... and Tim's at fault!
Member # 768
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posted June 11, 2011 06:16 PM
quote:
But with the information we now have, yes, I think most LEO's will believe this operation to be proper.
I would like to see a list of facts that would justify what we saw on the video, what facts would make it ok to approach a search warrant in this manner........again 49....we KNOW that everything is justified according to the law.......does that make it right in your opinion?
I agree with LB, you have stated several times how you've taken so much shit for all this and nobody is willing to look at it "objectively" ......really? We DO try to see it from your perspective and we just can't bring ourselves to condone that behavior in good conscience, I even stated at the beginning, as did others, that if the guy pointed a rifle at LE then they had no choice and any of us would have done the same thing......so you see we DO IN FACT look objectively at these things.
The problem we all see is that a death squad was sent to enforce a search warrant in the first damn place, therefore causing the whole issue.....it falls squarely on the shoulders of LE......they are the ones who caused the whole mess.....this was a search warrant......they woke him up, kicked the door and killed the fucker dead in about 20 seconds after pulling in the drive, all because they had a SEARCH warrant, all these facts that came out later are smear tactics.
For the life of me I cant understand WHY you defend this.....I have no sympathy for you on these threads, you bring this stuff on yourself with your constant delusional ramblings about how we all hate cops and you have taken SO MUCH shit over this and YOU are the only objective person on the board.....fuck that 49.....I believe that you can't see through your bunker mentality to see the problem.
How many times are you gonna beat this horse to death and then revive it only to beat it again?
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Jason
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What do Obama & TA17Rem have in common........both are clueless asshats!!!
Posts: 1456 | From: NE. | Registered: Dec 2005
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4949shooter
SECOND PLACE HIGGINS (MAGNUM P.I.) LOOK A LIKE CONTEST
Member # 3530
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posted June 11, 2011 06:24 PM
quote:
And shrugging off murdering a citizen in his own home under the guise of swat protocol is fukkin' ABSURD
So Fred, you have already tried and convicted these police officers of murder in your own mind.
This is exactly whay I am talking about.
Posts: 2274 | From: New Jersey | Registered: Dec 2009
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knockemdown
Our staff photo editing Guru, par excellence
Member # 3588
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posted June 11, 2011 06:58 PM
He's dead, ain't he? What candy coated term would you prefer, in favor of calling that murder?
And how many shots did he absorb again, 70 something?
Anyway, to cow-tow to your warped logic, would inserting OVERKILL make you feel better? After all, you can't be convicted of over-killing someone, right?
And since Leonard, JD & myself all brought it up at the same time, can you see how us 'turd' gun owning civilians can envision ourselves being in the very same predicament & ending up as SWAT preforated Swiss cheeze in the exact same fashion??
(I used 'Swiss cheezed' 'cause it sounds so much more better-er than murdered, but no less appropriate)
Posts: 2202 | From: behind fascist lines | Registered: Mar 2010
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4949shooter
SECOND PLACE HIGGINS (MAGNUM P.I.) LOOK A LIKE CONTEST
Member # 3530
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posted June 11, 2011 07:05 PM
quote:
And since Leonard, JD & myself all brought it up at the same time, can you see how us 'turd' gun owning civilians can envision ourselves being in the very same predicament & ending up as SWAT preforated Swiss cheeze in the exact same fashion??
Yes I can.
Now since you have proved my point, I think I will take Del's advice and cease and desist on this thread.
Thanks all!
Posts: 2274 | From: New Jersey | Registered: Dec 2009
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Semp
GOLD STAR MEMBER
Member # 3074
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posted June 11, 2011 07:11 PM
It seems there must be a lot of bad cops running around somewhere.
Here is a whole website dedicated to reports of Cops Gone Bad.
http://www.bikernews.net/index.cfm/pt/Cops-Gone-Bad/d/news/p/topic/topic/15
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Always remember: That court appointed psychiatrist is not your friend.
Posts: 406 | From: Kentucky | Registered: Aug 2008
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JD
HONORARY OKIE .... and Tim's at fault!
Member # 768
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posted June 11, 2011 07:41 PM
Well 49, at least you're objective. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
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Jason
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What do Obama & TA17Rem have in common........both are clueless asshats!!!
Posts: 1456 | From: NE. | Registered: Dec 2005
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TOM64
Knows what it's all about
Member # 561
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posted June 11, 2011 08:03 PM
"Now since you have proved my point,"
Glad we were able to help, now you can run over to your buddies and assure them that ya'll are all right in the eyes of the law...
Whatever gets you through the night.
Posts: 2283 | From: okieland | Registered: Feb 2005
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tlbradford
Rimfires are MAGIC on COYOTES! If you do your part
Member # 1232
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posted June 11, 2011 08:20 PM
quote:
But with the information we now have, yes, I think most LEO's will believe this operation to be proper.
I could care less about reading a cop forum so I will ask it here.
1) Do these same cops believe that the operation procedure, and execution of said procedure, was proper?
2) What percentage of these same cops believe that suspension of civil liberties is allowable, if they can categorize something as a direct order from a superior, or reconcile it as "for the general good of the people."
Not one person on this forum has ever said the cops can't shoot someone pointing a machine gun at them. I'm not sure why you are still trying to argue that point. We are all saying that it shouldn't have gotten to the point of an armed confrontation with innocents around. We are also saying that if the search team had followed protocol and had there shit tight in knocking the door down, maybe they wouldn't have felt so exposed and could have ordered him to drop his weapon. They didn't and a person died, and not one frggin cop in this world knows if he was guilty of anything, he is just suspected of being guilty.
So the thread started because you believe we can't see the cops side of things. Well I sure can't because they fucked the whole operation up and down the entire line. The only thing they got right is they killed the guy without getting hurt themselves and they didn't hurt anyone else. That wasn't a matter of doing there job, that was a matter of getting lucky. Almost everyone on this forum is for killing with extreme prejudice during a war time situation when they are facing eemies of our country. This is our gov't doing this to our own citizens and is completely different.
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"Dan Carey ain't that special" - LB
Posts: 423 | From: Spokane Valley, WA | Registered: Mar 2007
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Bofire
READ MY LIPS!
Member # 221
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posted June 11, 2011 08:23 PM
the obvious. there are good barbers and bad, good cops and bad, good people and bad, good vacuum cleaners sales guys and bad!!
All I know, is I feel like I have to carry to be safe, I did not use to. I am nervous about getting involved. I am making sure "I and Mine" are safe, I used to think about other people. Now I lean more towards, "'ll protect mine and you better not get in my way. I do not care what uniform you wear."
Carl
Posts: 322 | From: Wild West | Registered: Jul 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted June 11, 2011 09:07 PM
Strong opinions on both sides.
I'm not normally a sensitive type guy, always considering other people's feelings. Oh, I can be but I'm more of an insensitive clod.
But, in the case of police methods, I find myself contemplating what it's like in the other guy's shoes.
I think it is essential that police use restraint, as much as possible. This deal did not have to happen, it really didn't. And that, in a nutshell describes my attitude.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31462 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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DanS
Scorched Earth (AZ Sector)
Member # 316
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posted June 12, 2011 05:19 AM
I mentioned earlier that the police could have waited for the guy to get into his car then stopped him at the first stop sign.
Yes I know there is a difference between search and arrest. However couldn't they have stopped him and then informed the man that they have a search warrant for his residence, then taken him back and searched the home? Is that legal? might be a whole lot safer for everyone, including the police, and the "Turds".
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futuaris nisi irrisus ridebis
Saepe Expertus, Semper Fidelis, Fratres Aeterni:
Often Tested, Always Faithful. Brothers Forever!
Posts: 1465 | From: flyover country | Registered: Feb 2004
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knockemdown
Our staff photo editing Guru, par excellence
Member # 3588
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posted June 12, 2011 05:25 AM
Nick, again I don't think you are giving 'us' much consideration here. You've stated yourself in the past that you feel most of us HM members to be above average in intellect, yet you summarily dismiss our opinions that differ from yours because, in this case, we've already "convicted the cops of murder"?
Can't you fathom the notion that we've empathized with both the Police AND the dead human being & comtemplated their actions based on the available information BEFORE we've reached our conclusions?
It's sort of insulting of you to think otherwise.
Have you considered the fact that we HAVE looked at this situation objectively & simply rejected what we don't feel logical?
Speaking personally, that is exactly what I did before stating my opinion here. It was not a 'knee-jerk' reaction to another bad cop thread.
There's just something about this story that stinks with 'fukk up' and the situation doesn't add up.
And I'm seriously doubting the notion that some new evidence is going to surface to somehow exhonorate that Swat team from firing 70+ shots into a human being while serving a search warrant in his home.
I understand that those who may have to kill another human in the line of duty will need to justify the taking of another life to themselves and others, legally and morally.
Those Swat guys need to think that they were 'in the right', not only for the legal ramifications, but for the moral burden they need to carry for the rest of their lives.
It doesn't take being a sworn officer to appreciate the gravity of needing to justify a killing to one's own self.
That is why I can empathize with those Swat guys and you "brothers in blue" NEEDING to justify killing a civilian. And the laws have been written so that your azz is covered in that regard.
But I'll maintain that operating under the letter of the law alone cannot justify the action of deadly force.
In this case, "he had a gun" is the justification. A lone half naked man, woke up in the middle of the night in his own home who was confronted by an entire team of Stormtroopers clad in body armor.
Here's the questions I'm sure we'd all like to know:
Did the 1st Swat guy to confront the man, see the gun & just open fire?
What, if any, dialogue was used BEFORE the shooting began?
Did this man get a round off before he was gunned down?
Did he even raise his gun?
How many of the Swat team fired their weapons aginst a single man?
Why were so many rounds fired against a single man, even if he had a gun?
Were the last Swat guys up the stairs laying down covering fire, or what?
Posts: 2202 | From: behind fascist lines | Registered: Mar 2010
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TOM64
Knows what it's all about
Member # 561
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posted June 12, 2011 06:10 AM
"But, if I were truly an "us vs. them" kinda guy, there is no way in hell I could stay in this forum and put up with the shit I have had to deal with.
Think about it."
I have thought about this and the more I read this statement, the more I see you as a troll.
You started this bad cop deal with your first series of posts. Testing the waters or what but it's pretty clear, you're looking for something other than hunting info, you enjoy stirring the shit.
[ June 12, 2011, 06:15 AM: Message edited by: TOM64 ]
Posts: 2283 | From: okieland | Registered: Feb 2005
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4949shooter
SECOND PLACE HIGGINS (MAGNUM P.I.) LOOK A LIKE CONTEST
Member # 3530
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posted June 12, 2011 06:13 AM
I can't answer those questions Fred.
All I can do is objectively wait for the helmet cams to be released. This will most likely occur at a grand jury or other legal proceeding to determine whether or not this shooting was legally justified.
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4949shooter
SECOND PLACE HIGGINS (MAGNUM P.I.) LOOK A LIKE CONTEST
Member # 3530
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posted June 12, 2011 06:26 AM
Tom you might need to know a little history on how I was invited to Huntmasters.
Leonard and I "met" on another forum, during a contentious thread involving some law enforcement issue. I don't remember the issue, but I remember a person with the user name "Leonard" who made some anti law enforcement comments I didn't appreciate, so I challenged him. Leonard and I got into a pretty heated argument there. DAA was the moderator, and threatened to shut the thread down based on one of my posts. Out of respect for DAA as the mod, I edited my post out. Leonard and I contacted each other on PM's (I don't remember who contacted who first or why), we discussed our differences and made friends. Leonard then invited me to his forum.
So Tom, when you look at the history here, you won't be so surprised at why I post the way I do. Now you wanna call me a troll. Well you think what you like. I am not doing anything different than I have ever done, by standing up for what I believe in. If that makes me a troll than so be it.
And if Leonard feels I am a troll and wishes me to depart Huntmasters I will do so upon his request. He won't even have to ban me.
In all my years on internet forums this is the first time I have been called a troll LOL. I think I will add that one to my sig line. ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
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