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Author
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Topic: When.. Pulled Over By A Cop..While Carrying...
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4949shooter
SECOND PLACE HIGGINS (MAGNUM P.I.) LOOK A LIKE CONTEST
Member # 3530
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posted June 22, 2010 01:19 PM
Gents,
This was sent to me in an email. I posted it over on GT but thought you might find it helpful as well.
Thanks,
49
When.. Pulled Over By A Cop..While Carrying...
..My goal here is to provide food for thought when dealing with a police encounter on the street or in your vehicle, while you are armed....
by J. Peters and http://www.usconcealedcarry.com/2010/
I am a cop.
I stop you for a violation of motor vehicle code or law.
You have a weapon.
You have a concealed weapons permit.
What happens now?
I am writing this article as a cop. I am and have been that armed citizen, but that is not what I want to focus on. I am writing this article as a guide to dealing with us cops. Now, everyone has a story about cops. A large majority of those stories may not be what one could describe as "the most wonderful and joyous occasion in recent memory".
Realizing that we are always judged as a group, I try not to be "one of those cops". I have a background in the Marine Corps and grew up shooting and hunting from my earliest memories. My part time job (most cops have some other gig) is working in a local gun shop selling firearms.
I do not question the armed citizen's reasons behind carrying a gun. I understand and promote the concept of an armed and educated citizenry. There are differences in how you and I carry and employ weapons and how we may be involved in a deadly force encounter, but that isn't what I want to focus on either.
My goal here is to provide food for thought when dealing with a police encounter on the street or in your vehicle, while you are armed. I want to do this from my prospective as it may help you to understand it better. Sometimes in order to see things clearly, we have to see it from the reverse angle.
Where I work and live, in Michigan, folks who have a concealed pistol license are required to inform the officer stopping them that they have a weapon with/on them. They can be subject to a civil infraction fine if they do not disclose this information. When not carrying the weapon, they need not do this.
I realize that other states may not require this disclosure to be made. Some people may say that it is none of my business whether or not you have your weapon on you or in your car. To a certain extent, I can understand this. It seems intrusive when you are stopped and detained on a traffic offense. It certainly seems intrusive when you get a ticket right?
My question is why not tell the officer? What do you have to lose by telling me that you have your weapon on you?
Are you lawfully carrying your weapon? Yes.
Is that the reason I stopped you? No.
What are the ramifications of the officer knowing that you have your weapon on you (lawfully)? Well, I have heard many stories about cops doing things such as taking possession of the weapon during the course of the traffic stop. I have heard of officers who may instruct the weapon to be placed in a visible spot in the vehicle until the stop is concluded.
I have heard all sorts of stories about the cops that don't even know how to unload a different weapon than the one that they carry. I do not do any of these things, and I would not recommend these practices to other officers.
Truth be told, I very rarely come into contact with concealed pistol licensees in general. Why? CCW people just don't break the law that much. Upon occasion, I have stopped those with weapons permits in my jurisdiction.
My concerns when approaching the vehicle are primarily the occupants of the car. Traffic is always a secondary concern as is the rest of the environment of the stop, but that is my problem, not necessarily yours.
What I look for may be the positioning of the hands. What I like to see is both hands visible. A good place for the driver is on the wheel, 10 and 2 if you will. It is easy for me to see this as I approach from either side of the vehicle.
Passengers in a vehicle who may be armed can place their hands in their laps if possible. This may seem somewhat remedial, but you would not believe how many people start digging in their vehicle like they were mining for gold.
Picture yourself in my situation; just clearing an intensive domestic assault call or stand off with a suicidal subject and my first traffic stop afterwards is searching frantically around the car for god knows what.
1. Don't dig around...
Don't dig around looking for your paperwork, that French fry you dropped when the lights came on or your kid's pacifier. I do not enjoy putting you at gunpoint. It is stressful for both of us. We can avoid this problem by staying put and keep our hands comfortably visible.
I say 'stay put'; I mean stay in the vehicle. I realize that some jurisdictions may ask you to step from the vehicle. Do so when asked. Again, this may seem remedial, but someone who exits a car, without being asked, on a traffic stop gives an impression that he is either going to do us harm or run from us.
2. Eye Contact...
Make eye contact with the officer. Nothing says "I'm crazy" or "I have something to hide" like the 1000 yard stare down the roadway. This behavior has led to several searches, arrests, and some altercations upon further investigation.
3. Smile!
Like Mr. Rourke of Fantasy Island was fond of saying "Smiles everybody, smiles!" Make eye contact and smile. It will let the officer know that he can communicate with you.
4. Keep it hidden...
If you have the gun lying on the seat next to you or in plain sight, plan on having that muzzle related talk mentioned earlier. We know that an action beats a reaction almost every time. A visible weapon is an accessible weapon to a suspect. Concealed Carry means CONCEALED. Unless regulated by statute, I do not want to see your weapon. It would seem obvious, but even if you know this officer, this is no time to play a prank or joke.
I don't come to your work area and play practical jokes on you, do not do it to me. Your motives may be playful but the results could be devastating to you and the officer. I have had people do this before. For the life of me I do not know why and the resulting opinion is that the officer is a jerk for not getting the joke.
5. Take it easy...
No sudden movements to see if he is paying attention. No furtive movements to joke around.This may not be a potential lethal force encounter to you. It is to us, all of the time.
6. When do you tell him?
The time to inform the officer is upon his greeting. Do not say "I have a gun". Never utter this phrase. Never utter any variation of this phrase. There is no good that can come from that phrase when said to an officer. All we hear is "have a gun" and the rest is implied. The highway can be a noisy place and we may not hear everything you said.
7. How do you tell him?
Greet him and tell him you have a concealed weapons permit and the weapon is on your person/in the car.
8. Hand your permit...
Hand him your permit with your operator's license and any required paperwork like your registration and proof of insurance. The officer will likely ask where the weapon is. Tell him. There is no reason not to as long as you are abiding by local and state laws. Do not reach for the weapon unless asked to do so. Most officers, me included will not tell you to do this.
9. Then what?
The officer will most likely tell you very specifically to stay put or give further instructions based on training, experience, and departmental guidelines or operating procedures. Bear in mind that some agencies may have procedures and some may not. If you feel that action was taken that was unnecessary or infringed on your rights, check into the existence of a guideline or policy in the department involved.
If you are polite and proper, you may just even get out of a citation. You may not agree with the citation. This is not the time for that discussion. There are hearings for that. Even if you get a citation, thank the officer and be on your way. Take him to court to air your grievances.
Remember that you are a representative of all the concealed weapons permit holders out there, just as we are all the same cops. You have a responsibility to your fellow armed citizens to act in a manner that reflects well on your peers.
A bad incident involving a permit holder will resound with all the power that the media can muster. Your good behavior will not make headlines on a regular basis what so ever, but you may save the day once in your life.
In that respect, we are a lot alike.
J. Peters is a Law Enforcement Officer with over 10 years experience as certified officer, and was in the USMC Reserves from 1989-1998.
http://www.usconcealedcarry.com/2010/
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Andy L
HI, I'M THE NEW MODERATOR OF THE CENTRAL MISSOURI FORUM, PULL MY FINGER!
Member # 642
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posted June 22, 2010 01:39 PM
Get a copy of Gun Laws of the 50 States. It comes out every year, costs about fifteen bucks. They do a great job of keeping up with all new laws and its a great book to have each year.
If Im required to inform, I inform. If not, no, I dont inform. None of his business. Im not going to do anything to deserve a search or anything, so no.
On one of the turnpikes in OK, I got pulled over and he asked me back to write me a warning. I told the cop I had a 45 concealed at 4 oclock and a permit. He said no problem, didnt check the permit and didnt ask me to leave it in my car. I thought that was kinda kewl. Either he realized I wasnt a killer or he thought he could out draw me. LOL
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Andy
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4949shooter
SECOND PLACE HIGGINS (MAGNUM P.I.) LOOK A LIKE CONTEST
Member # 3530
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posted June 22, 2010 01:51 PM
I guess most would-be cop killers don't announce their weapon to police officers.
I got pulled over by the highway patrol in Arizona about 15 years ago. The trooper told me to leave my off duty weapon in the car, and wanted me to come back to his patrol car to speak with me.
I complied with his wishes.
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Andy L
HI, I'M THE NEW MODERATOR OF THE CENTRAL MISSOURI FORUM, PULL MY FINGER!
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posted June 22, 2010 02:50 PM
49,
The guy that wrote this does make a lot of sense. Thanks for posting it. Most of it is just common sense. Probably a very good way to act on all stops.
I guess Im just hard headed. The few times Ive been pulled over, I comply, but I dont smile like a bloomin idiot. I just got pulled over and it may cost me money for god sakes. Im not really all that fucking happy to see the guy. That said, Im not an ass either. Unless they ask where Im going or where I came from. Then I guess Im an ass, thats none of their fucking business. Kinda like can I look in your car? NO! Im not going to talk unless its to answer a valid question. As I have said before. You cant talk your way out of trouble, but you can talk your way into it.
Good read though and good advice, for some. LOL
I guess I should add, the LEO in OK, he saw handcuffs, leg irons, a tazer and other parafanalia in my back seat. He asked about those and I told him we were bondsmen and going to Muskogee to get a fugitive. He said I hope you get him and get his ass out of here, we got enough of our own trash, take yours home. LOL
So, maybe thats why he didnt worry too much about me carrying a gun to his car?
[ June 22, 2010, 02:55 PM: Message edited by: Andy L ]
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Andy
Posts: 2645 | From: Central Missouri | Registered: Apr 2005
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4949shooter
SECOND PLACE HIGGINS (MAGNUM P.I.) LOOK A LIKE CONTEST
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posted June 22, 2010 03:38 PM
Yeah..he had you pegged for a good guy.
I agree the smile part is a bit over the top. Heck, in my younger days I might have interpreted the smile to be an indication of a smart-ass.
Typo edit.
[ June 22, 2010, 03:39 PM: Message edited by: 4949shooter ]
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Ridge Runner
Being a very careful person, I have always bagged my own groceries
Member # 3477
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posted June 22, 2010 03:41 PM
what I do!
Greet the officer be polite, hand him your paperwork with your ccw, I tell him I would feel beeter if he would take control of the weapon till the traffic stop is over and await his instructions, slowly withdraw the weapon with 2 fingers if requested, never had much problem, and it seemed the cops appreciated it.
RR
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Born To Hunt, Forced To Work
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TOM64
Knows what it's all about
Member # 561
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posted June 22, 2010 03:44 PM
I've been stopped in Texas twice and here in Okieland a few more times, mostly for speeding and a few road blocks/safety checks/money makers, call em what you want.
I've always as per okie law, said I've got a concealed carry permit and am carrying. I was asked one time where it was at, a few times what gun I was carrying and most everytime I could see the officers demeanor change for the better.
Good guidelines to follow.
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Andy L
HI, I'M THE NEW MODERATOR OF THE CENTRAL MISSOURI FORUM, PULL MY FINGER!
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posted June 22, 2010 03:53 PM
49, quicky question. Why do LEOs almost always ask where your coming from or where your going? Is there are reason for that or small talk or what?
I refuse to answer. I see no reason that is any of their business or relevent to a traffic stop. If it was a felony stop, then maybe, but still wouldnt answer without council.
Just curious.
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Andy
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4949shooter
SECOND PLACE HIGGINS (MAGNUM P.I.) LOOK A LIKE CONTEST
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posted June 22, 2010 04:01 PM
It is definately not small talk Andy.
The officer is trying to assess his motor vehicle stop. The question could have something to do with the motor vehicle violation, say for speeding. The question may be relevant as to the violation, because the motorist may be speeding for a certain reason, like getting to the hospital.
The officer may also be trying to figure out if there is something suspicious going on. For example, is the motorist coming from a gin mill, or are they coming from a drug infested area of town?
It is basic police work really.
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted June 22, 2010 04:05 PM
We don't have the luxury of concealed weapon permits, in the People's Republik. But, I always have a handgun or two within easy reach. Loaded, depending on the definition of the word?
My question is, what is my best course of action, so to speak? Most often, I keep it easily visible, even if I do it while slowing down and pulling over. I am irritated when they ask if I have a permit, and usually mention the Second Ammendment to the U.S. Constitution.
I think that I might not be legal in some states. What's the deal on that? Well, you know the story, better to be caught with itthan without it.
I don't think most police think hunters are a threat, under normal circumstances? True?
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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RagnCajn
ADDS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING
Member # 879
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posted June 22, 2010 04:05 PM
I do not have a CCW. I allways have a pistol in the vehicle.
Did anyone know 40 cal cartridges can be stacked backwards in a double stack mag.
I was driving through NM going to see Danny up at his Motel several years back. Somewhere between ElPaso and Carrizozo, I was pulled over for Speeding. Sat my spot till he got to the window. He asked for registration and insurance papers. I told him I would have to get it from the Glove box and there was a pistol in there.
He remained calm and asked if there were any other weapons in the vehicle. I told him there was a pistol under my seat, a pistol in my centerconsole, an AR under the back seat. Three bolt guns in the bed of the truck.
At tis point I do believe he was more amused than concerned. A short dicussion ensued as to what we were hunting and then he got down to business.
He asked for the pistol in the console, none of the others. I handed it to him and then got the papers from under the gun in the glovebox and shut the box back. He explained that since this was the only one I could acquire without his partner(who had never come from the side of his vehicle on my back right) seeing me get it, he woul like to keep it in his possession while he ran my papers. I obliged and he went to his car.
A short time later he showed up, handed me my pistol and mag and asked me to replace it in the console. I did and he handed my papers back.
A few miles down the road, I pulled the pistol from the console and was putting the mag back in the gun when I realized he had taken all the rounds from the Mag, and put them back in the mag backwards.
Other than that time, I have never been asked to show any weapon, but have allways informed the officer that one would be in the glovebox before I reached over there and opened it.
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted June 22, 2010 04:17 PM
We had a couple of characters in the Club, a few years ago. Drove an old Bronco and in large DYMO TAPE, affixed a sign across the front of the glove box that said; "CONCEALED WEAPONS COMPARTMENT".
I had a County Sheriff's deputy ask to see my 45 that was in plain sight, on the dash. He smelled the barrel, and said, not fired recently.
However, we had just killed a couple coyotes that crossed the road on us a couple miles out of town. On down the road, here comes the red lights and siren. It was roughly between midnight and 1:00 A.M.
Barney Fife never looked in the back, or he would have seen three or four long guns that HAD been recently fired. In any event, there was no violation of anything, we were off the road and outside of city limits. They wrote it off as a false alarm.
Good hunting. LB
[ June 22, 2010, 04:18 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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4949shooter
SECOND PLACE HIGGINS (MAGNUM P.I.) LOOK A LIKE CONTEST
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posted June 22, 2010 04:18 PM
Do you think he did that purposely Rajn?
I am also curious as to why he only took one pistol. This is odd since the guns under the seat and in the glovebox were just as accessible.
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted June 22, 2010 04:21 PM
49! You must be joking? Of course it was on purpose, but I don't like it! At the least, he should have told the man what he did.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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4949shooter
SECOND PLACE HIGGINS (MAGNUM P.I.) LOOK A LIKE CONTEST
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posted June 22, 2010 04:26 PM
quote:
I think that I might not be legal in some states. What's the deal on that? Well, you know the story, better to be caught with itthan without it.
I don't think most police think hunters are a threat, under normal circumstances? True?
I think it will depend on the state Leonard. If you told me you were going to carry a loaded weapon in the car while you drove through NJ, I would caution against it.
As far as hunters and police go, I don't think there is much of a problem. You could possibly get stopped by an officer who grew up in the city, and is now stationed in a rural area. He might not be as forgiving, or tolerant, as an LEO who grew up on a farm.
I personally think the best course of action is to be up front with the officer. Cops don't like surprises, and often associate same with malice.
Of course I would never advocate carrying illegally. If one were to do so then disclosure might bring about its own unique set of circumstances.
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4949shooter
SECOND PLACE HIGGINS (MAGNUM P.I.) LOOK A LIKE CONTEST
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posted June 22, 2010 04:29 PM
quote:
49! You must be joking? Of course it was on purpose, but I don't like it! At the least, he should have told the man what he did.
Leonard,
As much as it pains me to say this in front of Andy and Tom, ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) I have seen some fellow LEO's do some really dumb things with weapons.
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RagnCajn
ADDS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING
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posted June 22, 2010 04:30 PM
49, I asked him why just that one. He said I could acquire it with out reaching or leaning. His partner was standing in a position that he could see my posture. Never left the spot or took his eyes off me or my passenger. He could actually see my passenger through the right rearview mirror.
Yes, it is my belief that he did do it on purpose. My thinking is if for some reason I decided to pop the mag in while he was walking back to the car, I would have an inoperable weapon.
Now I want to know how many loaded their mags backwards after reading that to see if it can be done.
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4949shooter
SECOND PLACE HIGGINS (MAGNUM P.I.) LOOK A LIKE CONTEST
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posted June 22, 2010 04:38 PM
That makes sense Ragn. Though I would have handled that stop differently. Everyone has their own method of operating.
And just to further elaborate on the backwards rounds issue...we have recruits attend our academy who have never fired a weapon before in their lives. I know this sounds crazy on a hunting forum, but this is the case, and especially so for a state like NJ.
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Leonard
HMFIC
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posted June 22, 2010 04:39 PM
So, it's illegal to have a loaded firearm in a vehicle, in New Jersey? What a bunch of pricks!What is the def. of loaded? Cartridges attached, no round chambered is still loaded, in a pistol?
Good hunting. LB
edit: I will do my best to stay the hell out of NJ!
[ June 22, 2010, 04:39 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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Andy L
HI, I'M THE NEW MODERATOR OF THE CENTRAL MISSOURI FORUM, PULL MY FINGER!
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posted June 22, 2010 04:46 PM
Guys, if you travel outside your state much at all and carry a gun, this guide is well worth the money. I buy one every year. They are very good at keeping up with new laws. I use them to plan trips as well as make sure Im staying legal.
http://www.gunlaws.com/travel.htm
Also, Cajun, if your going to carry concealed, I know your state offers them, there is no reason not to get a CCW. Its just a matter of time til it catches up with you, then you have a felony and cant have any guns.
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Andy
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TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Field Marshall, Southern Minneesota Sector
Member # 794
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posted June 22, 2010 05:02 PM
quote:
So, it's illegal to have a loaded firearm in a vehicle, in New Jersey? What a bunch of pricks!What is the def. of loaded? Cartridges attached, no round chambered is still loaded, in a pistol?
Good hunting. LB
edit: I will do my best to stay the hell out of NJ!
You best stay the hell out of Mn. as well. No laoded weapons of any kind and no rounds in the mag or clip..
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What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
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RagnCajn
ADDS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING
Member # 879
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posted June 22, 2010 05:32 PM
Andy, you want to hear the real kicker. My wife was in charge of this parish's CCW program for about three years. She did the checks and signed each one going through the Sherriffs office.
PS: parish=County everywhere but LA
On edit: I don't carry on my person concealed. If I am carrying it is exposed.
Another kicker-Going through Texas I was stopped and he saw a rifle on the passenger seat. Asked if I had a CCW. I told him I did not and the gun was not concealed. He told me that if I was going to a shooting event or hunting trip, I was ok. Then asked what was the purpose of the trip. I told him I was going to the range. He smiled and said have a nice day.
Now the only time I have ever had a problem with a gun in the vehicle is quite funny now but was real serious at the time. It got squirrelly real fast.
Motor cycle cop in Marshall Texas. Had that just from the academy look and attitude. I was on a job in the area and was speeding through their fine little town. This "dude" with the high top lace up boots, came to the window. asked for the papers and license. This time the pistol was under the drivers seat so I did not mention the gun. As I reached for the glove box, he begans screaming "out of the vehicle now" hand on weapon but not drawn and was highly excited. For sure scared the crap out of me and I had no idea what was about to happen. He had actually unsnapped the holster but not pulled yet. I got out. He ordered me to the back still holding the butt of his pistol. I get to the back of the truck. He tells me hands on the tailgate. I complied. Then he frisked me. I am still in total shock wondering WTH is going on. I mean I was doing 55 in a 35 so I can see why I was dangerous.
Still in attack mode, he says "do you have any weapons in the vehicle, I replied I did under the drivers seat. He says any others. "No" was my answer. He then gets more excited and asked again. I replied there is a gun under the drivers seat and none other. He calls for backup. Won't leave me for nothing. He has me pointed like a bird dog.
Back up arrives. He tells the assisting officer, I had went for a weapon on the dash under some newspapers and when questioned, denied having it.
At this point I began to get real worried. The other officer mid 50's began to talk real slow and deliberate and it was obvious he was defusing the situation with his demeanor and attitude. He asked me if I had any weapons. I replied there was a pistol under the seat and none others in the vehicle that I could remember. He walked up to the window and viewed through the drivers window and began to grin.
Walks back and asked if I had any kids. Dumb ass question but WTH. I replied I had two boys. He asked me to go to the truck with him and bring the newspapers and what ever else was on the dash out for them to view.
On the dash under the papers, with just the back strap area showing was my son's BB pistol.
[ June 22, 2010, 06:00 PM: Message edited by: RagnCajn ]
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4949shooter
SECOND PLACE HIGGINS (MAGNUM P.I.) LOOK A LIKE CONTEST
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posted June 22, 2010 06:17 PM
So, it's illegal to have a loaded firearm in a vehicle, in New Jersey? What a bunch of pricks!What is the def. of loaded? Cartridges attached, no round chambered is still loaded, in a pistol?
Good hunting. LB
edit: I will do my best to stay the hell out of NJ!
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You best stay the hell out of Mn. as well. No laoded weapons of any kind and no rounds in the mag or clip..
Yep...same here.
Off duty LEO's from out of state aren't allowed to carry hollowpoints either.
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4949shooter
SECOND PLACE HIGGINS (MAGNUM P.I.) LOOK A LIKE CONTEST
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posted June 22, 2010 06:22 PM
Good story Ragn.
Leonard, that BB pistol would be considered unlawfully carried in NJ. By NJ's definition of firearm BB gun=firearm.
No BS.
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Paul Melching
Radical Operator Forum "You won't get past the front gate"
Member # 885
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posted June 22, 2010 06:53 PM
I was pulled over and three squad cars showed up two cops on the passenger side with their weapons drawn and one officer behind my door asked me to put my hands in plain sight on the window sill. then asked me to exit the vehicle. At this point I told them at my first opportunity to speak that I had a concealed weapon and a permit they took it from me while I was spread out on the hood of my truck. They told me that I matched the desription of a vehicle involved in an armed robbery then apoligized returned my weapon and said have a good night. I usually let the officer know that I am armed just to keep things relaxed they generally set the weapon on the roof until after the stop.Never had a real problem with it.
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