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Author
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Topic: Need opinions
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Kokopelli
SENIOR DISCOUNT & Dispenser of Sage Advice
Member # 633
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posted May 24, 2024 10:01 AM
Not trying to start a shit storm ....... just need some opinions.
It looks like I'm going to have an opportunity to call bears in a good area loaded with sign. The bad news, it's a narrow river bottom about 30 yards wide bordered on both sides by salt cedar that are beyond thick.
So ............ Probably looking at a shot in the forty yard range down the river bed. Imperative to drop the bear in it's tracks. I have no desire to track a bear while clearing a trail with a machete.
I have a couple of options to shoot.
(1) A 12 ga. pump shooting slugs.
(2) A 30-30 shooting heavy soft nosed bullets.
(3) A Sporterized Jap 7.7 that I've never fired.
(4) A .41 Mag revolver.
To my thinking the 12 ga. would have more knock-down than the 30-30 but terminal ballistics for firearms are not my strong suit.
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And lo, the Light of the Trump shown upon the Darkness and the Darkness could not comprehend it.
Posts: 7661 | From: Under a wandering star | Registered: Apr 2005
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted May 24, 2024 02:49 PM
I'm not afraid to wade in with an opinion or two.
First, the Jap Nambu. If you have never fired it, perhaps you don't want to, and since it's not that much better than the 30/30 at short range. I don't think a bear hunt in heavy cover is the place to trust it's utility for this particular task.
Depending on your familiarity with the shotgun, and trusting to the short range; I think this might actually work. I'd put some thought into how you stack the magazine with perhaps #4Buck as the second round and/or 00Buck as the first critically aimed shot. So, I don't think it's a bad choice. Give some thought to the choice of shells.
The 30-30 has an advantage of fast second and third shots, if it has a scope, that might be a slight negative in the close range with heavy cover and limited visability. At the ranges you contemplate, I'd say it's a toss up as to open sights or a scope? If you have to time to install a red dot, that might work on eithe the shotgun or the 30-30....or, for that matter, even the 41Mag.
AS far as that goes, there is nothing wrong with cheating a bit and bringing the revolver with you as back up. But you have a choice there, of either soft points or solids, although you may have to handload the solids if finding them in the stores is unfruitful?
Let us know what you decide (GOOD LUCK)
Good hunting. El Bee
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Field Marshall, Southern Minneesota Sector
Member # 794
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posted May 24, 2024 03:10 PM
my vote is 12 gauge with slugs, we have to use them in southern deer zone. shoulder and lung shots. I wouldn't be afraid to back up first slug with one load of buckshot and then back to slugs. You have to hurt the bear and then break him down in a big hurry. keep shooting till it lays down.
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What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
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Az-Hunter
Hi, I'm Vic WELCOME TO THE U.S. Free baloney sandwiches here
Member # 17
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posted May 24, 2024 04:37 PM
In the picture you paint, I would opt for the 30/30 rifle shooting as heavy a bullet that they pedal, I presume that is a 170?
It's Arizona black bear I imagine your after, so no over kill needed. Given you call an adult bear I would hazard your looking at shooting an animal that weighs 150-250 pounds, you don't need a cannon, just an accurate poke in the lungs.
[ May 24, 2024, 04:41 PM: Message edited by: Az-Hunter ]
Posts: 1640 | From: 5 miles west of Tim | Registered: Jan 2003
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NVWalt
Does not claim to be overly bright!
Member # 375
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posted May 25, 2024 03:13 AM
I am with Vic on this one. During the years I ran hounds for bear in Washington I carried a SAVAGE 99 Featherweight in 308 shooting 180 corelocks from Remington with open sights as everything was within, literally, yards. I know a 308 isn't a 30-30 but that heavy slug at close range was a good bullet and the lever action with open sights was a good combo for the quick second shot if I screwed up my first shot. Oh yeah I have blown more than one shot at a bayed bear in close quarters.
Called bears are pretty interesting to watch. Having lived up in Lake Tahoe for a number of years I called in quite a few of them in and around the Tahoe basin. No shooting in the basin so the bears aren't overly cautious and came to the call on more than one occasion.I could go on and on but you get the drift of it.
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Posts: 656 | From: Tellico Plains, TN | Registered: Aug 2004
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted May 25, 2024 03:38 AM
Hmmm? I have a bit of nostalgia for a Savage Model #99, maybe in 300 Savage? I just think they are neat guns.
But tell me more about "The Basin"? Is this around South Lake Tahoe? Is there some firearm restrictions in that area because of the Skiing, or what?
Anyway, sounds like you have a choice of the "Shottie" (hate that term) or the Thutty-Thutty, and why not pack the hand cannon while you're at it?
Why this particular "narrow river bottom"? Is this your only access, or maybe you have seen bear there, in the past? You didn't specify, but it could be in AZ?
You really are not that much of a "Gun guy" are you?
Well, that's okay! I guess?
Good hunting. El Bee
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31605 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Kokopelli
SENIOR DISCOUNT & Dispenser of Sage Advice
Member # 633
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posted May 25, 2024 06:16 AM
It's a stretch of the Gila that goes thru ag land near a Res. Heavy on tracks, scat and 'sign' as in "Warning; High Bear Activity In This Area" signs.
Nope, not much of a Gun Guy. I can handle the things safely and use them competently. I carry concealed. I shoot pellet rifle & pistol at pan lid 'gongs' from my patio, usually while I'm bbq-ing. But it's the pointed sticks that are my obsession. I generally shoot around 250 to 300 arrows a week at ranges from 1 yard to 125 yards. I'm not the best but when the best get together, they let me sit with them.
Having grown up back east I've seen what slugs from even a lowly .410 shottie (sorry, El Bee. I couldn't resist) can do. More than one mature buck double lunged and on the ground within three steps from .410 to 12 ga slugs. I know that slugs hit like Thor's Hammer but know less about centerfire rifle terminal ballistics.
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And lo, the Light of the Trump shown upon the Darkness and the Darkness could not comprehend it.
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NVWalt
Does not claim to be overly bright!
Member # 375
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posted May 25, 2024 08:39 AM
Leonard, the Tahoe Basin is the whole bowl that Lake Taco sits in . South Lake Tahoe, Stateline,Incline Village Bijou, Anyways all the area below the Carson Range and Sierra Nevada range summits that comprise Lake Tahoe. No firearms are supposed to be shot there. Consequently the animals that live within that area don't get bothered and the bears become a nuisance there always getting into things and the Game people from both Commifornia and Nevada trap and move a lot of them. I don't know if you could stick a bear with a stick launched by a string but ya can't be discharging any firearms there. But the bear population is pretty good and I have called in many of them while calling the Eastern side of the Carson Range and the Pinenut Range.
Not a common thing but it does happen.
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Support Communism and help destroy the United States of America ! VOTE DEMOCRAT. "In the end, they aren't coming after me. They are coming after you!" D.Trump
Posts: 656 | From: Tellico Plains, TN | Registered: Aug 2004
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TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Field Marshall, Southern Minneesota Sector
Member # 794
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posted May 25, 2024 01:23 PM
close range those 12-gauge slugs speak with authority and last thing animal hears is that God awful woofal sound. Some parts of the world that's what a big game outfitter carries when they go in after a cripple.
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What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
Posts: 5163 | From: S.D. | Registered: Jan 2006
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted May 25, 2024 06:35 PM
I briefly knew a guy from Iran. He was a hunter. they hunt several forms of big game, hogs or Boar, sheep, and colossal sheep and goats. What else, I do not know?
But, they must use shotguns and I don't recall if he mentioned slugs or buckshot?
But they depend on their Saluki's. Sounds like it's the only breed of dog they have, IDK? But I do think I have heard that muslims in general think a dog is a filthy animal, about like a hog.
Anyway, they are allowed to hunt big game with shotguns and dogs. I believe Italy is restricted to shotguns as well. I used to think it was the same in Russia, but I watched a documentary and they use military AK47's in Siberia to hunt bear and tigers.
Good hunting. El Bee
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31605 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted May 25, 2024 06:50 PM
Replying to ko ko. I remember some very primitive parts of the White Mountain reservation where the (is it?) The black river runs by the old sawmill?
It's rugged country and undoubtedly holds many bear.
That reminds me of the time we hunting around there and there was this little baby calf bleating like crazy! He was sure to draw a lion or even a bear and probably coyotes as well. He came right up to us and wanted to be with us or take care of him and he was calmed down until we brought him to the truck and he immediately bolted when he smelled coyotes. He allowed us to comfort him after that, but wouldn't go back to the truck and if his mom didn't show up I doubt very much if he lasted the night....but we never found out. And, it was very close to that Apache reservation.
Good hunting. El Bee
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Field Marshall, Southern Minneesota Sector
Member # 794
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posted May 26, 2024 05:44 AM
Saluki's are mostly Arab type dog for hunting of small antelope and big jackrabbits and whatever else they have to hunt. They are fast as the wind and move well in their part of the country and they are well cared for just like Arabian horses they raise. They are not tough built, so they don't fare well around wild boars and such. very pretty breed as well.
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What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted May 26, 2024 07:28 AM
My son had a weird girlfriend that raised and showed dogs, she had about ten of them but I think they were Borzoi maybe they are Russian hounds of some type? I do not think I've ever seen a Saluki? Just photos, they look a lot like Afghans but the fur isn't quite as long. We used to have a neighbor, where we used to live in West Covina. They had a primarily black Afghan hound. I felt so sorry for that dog. She was always tied up on an 8-10ft. leash to the corner of the open garage. She could get shade and a bit of the lawn but that was it. Criminal! I should have reported them! No way to treat man's best friend!
Good hunting. El Bee
[ May 26, 2024, 07:40 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31605 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted May 26, 2024 07:43 AM
OKAY ko ko! When is this big hunt, and what did you decide to use? If shotgun, have you priced shells lately?
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31605 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Kokopelli
SENIOR DISCOUNT & Dispenser of Sage Advice
Member # 633
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posted May 26, 2024 08:35 AM
It's not until Oct. but with the Aug. / Sept. archery seasons now would be a good time to do some range time while the weather's still mild.
Gawd help me, but I'm leaning toward agreeing with Tim and using the pump shotgun. A carefully placed slug followed up with a couple of fast shots with 00 Buck center of mass 'should' do the trick and drop right there.
The other consideration is that I'm more familiar with the shotgun pump action. I would look really stupid trying to get off a second shot with the lever action by pumping the forearm stock. Dumber things have happened to smarter people than me. ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
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And lo, the Light of the Trump shown upon the Darkness and the Darkness could not comprehend it.
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TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Field Marshall, Southern Minneesota Sector
Member # 794
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posted May 26, 2024 10:14 AM
quote:
Afghans
Afghans is another beautiful breed that built to run. I seen them coal black and black/gold/silver. If I just had fox here, I would have a bunch of either breed on hand.
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What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
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Az-Hunter
Hi, I'm Vic WELCOME TO THE U.S. Free baloney sandwiches here
Member # 17
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posted May 26, 2024 10:41 AM
Follow up shots and handguns as backup, are an illogical solution to the original task.
Others experience may vary, but my first shot has always been my best available shot, the thought of flinging another, after fucking up the best chance you had, turns into a shit show.
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted May 26, 2024 10:43 AM
What do you think about bringing your dog with you? They are extremely helpful in detecting an approach in a canyon with lots of brush.
If it helps, or makes you feel better; shotgun was also MY first choice. Man I have some genuine Tunderboolt Dead Coyote shells. A whole box of 10, minus one round. They have proved too fucking expensive to shoot at coyotes! And, kick like a mule!
Anyway....I wonder what a load of Dead Coyote in the face would do to a black bear? It would get his attention, I bet!
But aside of that, there are several types of slugs one being a sabot type of thing like a sideways barbell. Does your shotgun handle 3" shells? 3" are a lot more powerful than the standard 2 3/4"
Good hunting. El Bee
I once blew off 150 shotgun slugs while sitting on a hill overlooking a lake where there were a shitload of ducks rafting below and about a quarter mile away. I shot it just like we did with grenades in an M1. You just rest the butt on the ground and fire at about a 45 degree angle and lob them into the flock. I never came close to even scaring one but it was kinda interesting gauging the angle and wind, etc. and with that many rounds, I was able to make some rather "fine" corrections. I was just fucking around, obviously. But at todays prices it must have been several hundred dollars worth of slugs! PS, they came with the shotgun, and I had zero use for them.
Good hunting. El Bee
edit: I just read Vic's sound advice just before I posted. He's getting more like Tim every day! Just kidding! Just kidding!
[ May 26, 2024, 10:47 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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Kokopelli
SENIOR DISCOUNT & Dispenser of Sage Advice
Member # 633
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posted May 26, 2024 11:57 AM
Vic;
I totally agree that depending on the 2nd or 3rd shot is a ticket to a shit show. My goal is going to be a well placed lethal 1st shot broadside thru both lungs. The mindset of the 2nd & 3rd follow-up shots are to make double damn sure that the bear does not make it into the salt cedars even though mortally wounded. Tracking even a short distance in that would be a nightmare.
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And lo, the Light of the Trump shown upon the Darkness and the Darkness could not comprehend it.
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted May 26, 2024 03:09 PM
ko ko, he knows that, he's just trying to punk ya!
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Field Marshall, Southern Minneesota Sector
Member # 794
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posted May 26, 2024 03:14 PM
im with you on that koko, You can try for best shot possible but the bear decides when it's going to drop or how well the load did on one.always be ready for more so it don't turn into a shit show.
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What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
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TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Field Marshall, Southern Minneesota Sector
Member # 794
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posted May 26, 2024 03:20 PM
Had a rancher in S.D. that raised buffalo he would drive up and take one shot behind ear with 22 l.r. when he wanted to butcher and worked every time so he thought. I missed all the action when I pulled up into the ranch, but I saw this. A pickup truck that looked to be half totaled and most of the corral destroyed and a dead buffalo that laid couple hundred yards away after the rancher's son come running out of house with 300 Winchester mag. and put two into it. you just never know.
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What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
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Kokopelli
SENIOR DISCOUNT & Dispenser of Sage Advice
Member # 633
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posted May 26, 2024 04:29 PM
S'ok ........... Punk away as long as it's done with good intentions.
I'm thinking setting up for a 40 yard shot off of a stool & shooting sticks with some range time practice for a triple tap.
Funny story; About a hundred years ago while plinking with a Ruger 10-22 I got into the habit of double tapping the trigger and not to brag but I got pretty good at it. Two shots would almost sound like just one.
Fast forward a few years to putting fur on stretchers and I got a deal on a Ruger Mini-14 in .223. Coyote comes loping by about 30 yards away and without thinking I double tapped two hollow points one in the shoulder and one in the spine.
Took a while to sew that mess up.
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And lo, the Light of the Trump shown upon the Darkness and the Darkness could not comprehend it.
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted May 27, 2024 07:32 AM
I don't think a double tap habit should be too difficult to break....keep working on it!
TA came up with a worthy contribution. Yes the one shot, one kill melodrama is economy of scale but do not count on it, or turn your back on Old Grizz!
Then again, I have heard credible statistics that show Black Bear kill a lot more people than you think. Yes, maybe the victim is unarmed, most of the time, but it is a fair size animal. I've been attacked by a wounded coyote twice!
Good hunting. El Bee
edit: PS I cleaned my Keurig last night as recommended, with white vinegar....apparently, I didn't purge it nearly enough! Ugh!
[ May 27, 2024, 07:36 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted May 27, 2024 07:56 AM
Ah yes! The Mini 14. You know, as much as I dislike America's Rifle, the AR15, all it takes to appreciate the weapon for what it is; is to spend a little time behind a Ruger Mini 14. They seem to function about as mechanically as a manual typewriter, that's the best I can come up with at short notice. The way that the action cycles is so distracting that "one in the shoulder and one in the spine" is a one hole group, with the the AR15.
You know, the M1 Garand was the first centerfire rifle I had ever fired, in Basic Training. I guess I have a soft spot for it? I had owned guns since I was 10 years old, but they were shotguns and 22 rimfires. Ruger took that M1 platform and turned it into? I don't know what the hell to call it? But that clickity-clack action is the most accuracy destroying POS in town. It's exactly the kind of gun I would not mind knowing it was in the bed of my truck and bouncing around.
Good hunting. El Bee
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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