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Author
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Topic: Stopping Power of the .223 on Coyotes
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knockemdown
Our staff photo editing Guru, par excellence
Member # 3588
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posted August 29, 2016 04:00 AM
Hey Nick,
I think you'll be OK with an AR. But...
before I began reloading, I used Black Hills 'blue box' 55gr SP from a Bushy Varminter. Not exactly ass over tea-kettle type knockdown power. I do remember distinctly losing two coyotes. Both would have been #2 of a double, so maybe I rushed the shot? Anyhoo, I've spend enough time tracking blood drops in deep snow to know there's a better way to burn a coyote down. After reloading, I used 65grGamekings and they did better on the few I shot with them...
If ya didn't buy that R15 yet, I'd sooner steer ya toward a nice little bolt gun. I've always like the Rem Model Seven, for no particular reason other than my first bolt rifle was a Seven.
Enter, a Tikka T3 Lite, in .22-250 or .243. Right outta da box, that would make a real nice coyote rifle. Has a drop magazine for easy unloading between stands, nice trigger & shoot good. Plenty of great factory ammo for either cartridge. Can get it in blue synthetic or stainless/camo:
(edited out the pics to improve screen size)
Also, look at their CTR (Compact Tactical Rifle), posta be coming in .243 soon...
Tikka Rifles linky
Then, there's a Savage 110 Predator. Same deal, good shooter, drop magazine, camo, etc...
(edit to remove pic)
Even though I like building my Remmys, either of the above offer an easier path to a nice coyote rifle...
Guess you could say that our stupid azz laws in NY have precipitated in ARs losing their novelty for me to hunt with. One thing's for sure, if I did still hunt with an AR, it wouldn't be chambered in .223
Good luck & have fun deciding!
[ August 30, 2016, 03:11 AM: Message edited by: knockemdown ]
Posts: 2202 | From: behind fascist lines | Registered: Mar 2010
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted August 29, 2016 04:59 AM
If there is one thing guaranteed in this world, it's that when you get a bunch of old farts together talking about rifle calibers, there will be much disagreement, much of it illogical, but they believe it like The Second Coming. So many of you gentlemen are so full of shit as the Christmas Goose! ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Good hunting. El Bee
edit: and Fred is just the sort of gearhead that when he talks about any rifle, "out of the box" you know it ain't happening.
edit: for 49. My advice never chances, start handloading. There is so much advantage and much knowledge available to those that roll their own. And, at this point, you don't know what you don't know. Example: when discussing low velocity ammo; no handloader would ever miss performance details like that. When you "make" something, you know what it is and how it performs at any range. Just don't get sucked into the ECONOMY bullshit. You do it for performance.
On second thought, if you are a dedicated handgunner, get the Dillon and save money over factory ammo.
[ August 29, 2016, 05:14 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31472 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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DAA
Utah/Promoted WESTERN REGIONAL Hunt Director
Member # 11
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posted August 29, 2016 05:19 AM
So... Detachable, drop out magazines, "for ease of unloading"?
Have never understood that one. Got rid of my 788's mainly because unloading them was such a pain in the ass? Hated those detachable mags for coyote hunting where I'm unloading after every stand all day. ESPECIALLY when it was really cold and EXTRA ESPECIALLY when there was much snow on the ground. I mean, you can see the hole in the snow where the magazine went, you know it's down there somewhere, ought to be easy to find, but it usually wasn't. Probably where I got such a potty mouth, digging around in the snow for dropped magazines too many times ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) .
Seriously though, having to pull the mag out, eject the live round, put it back the magazine, put that back in the rifle. Just too many steps and too much chance for fuckery when cold fingers are involved.
Compared to a 700 or 70 style box magazine, simply open the bolt, press the live round back down in the magazine, close the bolt on an empty chamber. Now THAT is ease of unloading!
- DAA
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"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter
Posts: 2676 | From: Salt Lake City, UT | Registered: Jan 2003
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knockemdown
Our staff photo editing Guru, par excellence
Member # 3588
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posted August 29, 2016 05:37 AM
Dave, you've got it good out in Utah!
Back here, to be legally "unloaded" means empty chamber & empty magwell. That rule goes for some contest hunts too, gotta have a 100% unloaded rifle before driving to the next stand...
In that regard, dropping a mag into hand is alot easier than flippin' that damn hinged floorplate open and havin' loose boolits fall all over the place.
And speaking of 'gear', my buddy Chad got into the holster makin' business, so I asked him to make some AICS magazine holders pressed out of Kydex. This is a 5rd AICS mag, fits like a glove!
They have a TEk-lok clip on the back for belt carry, or can thread onto Molle loops, too:
So easy now to drop a mag at the end of a stand, and slide it into the holder. No more searching pockets, or the dash or floorboard for that missing magazine!
Posts: 2202 | From: behind fascist lines | Registered: Mar 2010
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DAA
Utah/Promoted WESTERN REGIONAL Hunt Director
Member # 11
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posted August 29, 2016 05:45 AM
Fred, we still have room for a couple more. I can't get any more Californian's in, we've far exceeded our quota on them already, but I still have a couple more slots open for east coaster's .
Good friend that spent 30 years in Baltimore moved out here about 18 months ago. I swear it took ten years off his apparent age. Dude is so happy to be out of that shit hole and living out here it's contagious!
Have two Jeeping buddies from New Jersey. Both came out here to do the Easter Jeep Safari in Moab, and after that one visit, went home to New Jersey and sold their houses and moved out here for good. Neither one of them will even go back to visit, say if they never set foot in New Jersey again that will be a win.
But, like I said, still have room for a couple more .
- DAA
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"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter
Posts: 2676 | From: Salt Lake City, UT | Registered: Jan 2003
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Lonny
PANTS ON THE GROUND
Member # 19
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posted August 29, 2016 06:25 AM
Not to deviate from Nick's original question, but DAA also brought it up in his response to Fred.
The part of Nick's question that really hit me was "There are always houses within at least a half mile if not closer."
I knew things were a bit tighter back East, but this kinda blew me away. I've never been east of the Mississippi so I don't have a visual of the space some easterners have for hunting grounds.
I'm gonna sound like a half-hearted hunter here, but I would probably hang it up, if faced with knowing that the area I was hunting was surrounded by houses and people. I don't think I could enjoy it?
My post isn't meant to rub your noses in the western space that many of us enjoy. I do commend you guys for getting out even though you're faced with small areas to hunt.
Posts: 1209 | From: Lewiston, Idaho USA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted August 29, 2016 06:44 AM
Yeah, I read that too, about houses every half mile. But, I immediately discounted it as exaggeration? It must be, no? That or, he can go places where it isn't so, but chooses not to drive more than 15 minutes from home? Just a guess.
And, wouldn't they be calling the cops every morning over "gunshots"? They probably have a no hunting on Sunday rule?
If your choices are Utah or New Jersey and you are still in New Jersey, hard to figure? You listening, 49? I know, no rocks please, yes, I'm still in The People's Republik.
Good hunting. El Bee
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31472 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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knockemdown
Our staff photo editing Guru, par excellence
Member # 3588
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posted August 29, 2016 07:57 AM
Lonny, it goes both ways, too.
Although I usually hunt more open rolling 'cow country' than Nick does, there can be an upside to calling in those small woodlots. Just gotta pick the one where the coyotes are, and not fuck up your approach/setup. Viola, you've got a captive audience within a few hundred yards of your stand! Just don't call too loud to where a coyote hears you, but likely won't pass/cross those human impediments to check you out...
Course, that's waaaaay different then lettin' er rip out in God's country and watching them come trotting in for a few minutes before its time to shoot. But, ya sho' nuff can whack 'em in tight, when that's all ya got to work with. Same basics, all it takes is a bit of tweaking them to roll the red carpet out for that coyote to stroll down when he hears ya...
P.S.
Dave, one a these days, imouttahea!
Maybe another 10 yrs, reckon...
[ August 29, 2016, 08:15 AM: Message edited by: knockemdown ]
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Brent Parker
Knows what it's all about
Member # 4354
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posted August 29, 2016 12:20 PM
It's going to be an interesting season, don't plan to trap much this year and will call more, I started with a .17 Remington and killed a lot of coyotes with it. Have shot a .17 hornet, 17 Mach IV and Mach IV Rimmed,17-222, 20 Tactile, 20-222, 204 Ruger, 22 hornet, .22 K Hornet.222,.223, .222 magnum, 22-250, 6XC, and a .243. All have killed coyotes just fine. The 17 Hornet was a little unforgiving.
Now I run a .243 mainly cause I can make it work for both. Run Barnes 80 TTSX or Nosler 90 E-Tips and have shot coyotes and cats with it not lost a pelt due to bullets. However when hunting closer to home I run a little old .223 AR with a 12.5 inch barrel with 55 NBT @2900. I have only shot around 30 coyotes with it so far but its been a reliable coyote killer to 265 so far. I have mentioned it before but I believe it is working so well because of a 1-7 twist barrel. My experience says a fast twist kills better. At the end of the season I will give a report on how well this little rig did both from a fur damage perspective as well as if I had losses and runners with it.
Brent
Posts: 172 | From: 2 miles east of Vic | Registered: Mar 2013
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DanS
Scorched Earth (AZ Sector)
Member # 316
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posted August 29, 2016 12:41 PM
Brent, I may try those Nosler 90 E-Tips in the 6XC. I think my Sako's barrel is toast now. I have another factory Sako 243 barrel somewhere, I may screw on it.
But I really want to play with my AR in 20 practical and the 6x45. If uncle Sam would just send me that darned tax stamp.
[ August 29, 2016, 12:43 PM: Message edited by: DanS ]
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futuaris nisi irrisus ridebis
Saepe Expertus, Semper Fidelis, Fratres Aeterni:
Often Tested, Always Faithful. Brothers Forever!
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4949shooter
SECOND PLACE HIGGINS (MAGNUM P.I.) LOOK A LIKE CONTEST
Member # 3530
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posted August 29, 2016 07:19 PM
Leonard, Lonny,
The "house every 1/2 mile" comment was not so much an exaggeration as it was a generalization.
Sure, I could drive down to south jersey where the land is more spread out, however I don't know how the coyote hunting is down there. It is all sand and pine trees, and is a good area for four wheelers and dirt bikes.
Up north, most of the land is as I described. One could hunt Stokes State Forest and get farther from homes. However, a friend of mine had gotten a ticket for shooting too close to a (you guessed it) house, and it really turned me off of hunting there.
Last week my wife and I took a ride up to Syracuse, NY to drop our son off at college. I got a chance to take a good look at Fred's AO. Believe me, upstate NY is completely different than Jersey. Fred has thousands upon thousands of acres of beautiful country to work with. I-81 is remote as compared to NJ. I-380 is really remote.
BTW Fred, I got my eye on that Savage.
Thanks for all the advice. I got the R-15 when Obummer first took office. I hadn't shot it much over the years, but would like to give it a try in the field. Still thinking about that Savage though...
[ August 29, 2016, 07:21 PM: Message edited by: 4949shooter ]
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knockemdown
Our staff photo editing Guru, par excellence
Member # 3588
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posted August 30, 2016 03:42 AM
If ya already got that R-15, then use it! It ain't like the bullets gonna bounce off a coyote, especially at the distance you'll prolly be shooting one in the woods. Same as in any cartridge, bullet choice goes a long way in determining desired outcome. Maybe try some of that Superformance Hornady stuff?
BTW, I enjoy all the feedback, difference of opinion & reasons behind them. Preference in rifles allow a glimpse into the progression of what works best on an individual & situational basis. Best way to learn is to soak all that stuff up, then apply it however best you see fit. To that end, this place is more than sufficiently packed with that...(thanks all!)
If you hunt PA, that I-380 corridor seems to have quite a bit of State Game Land, and I do see roadkilled predators around there from time to time. I've also cruised around thru westernNJ, north of I-80. Those little farms dotted thru there have GOT to have coyotes around 'em. In lieu of hunting state lands, I'd sooner be scouting & acquiring small tracts of private where you know coyotes inhabit, and spend time hunting them during prime times...
And, if ya still have a hankering to kill a NY coyote, lemme know. My offer from a while back is still on the table. I had a homenugget up from OK over last New Year and we had a friggin' pisser calling together! Despite the shitball conditions, we got him a NY coyote one cold afternoon. And didn't even get to call at night, due to the wind/snow. Total waste of time to even try...
Anyhoo, good luck and have fun!!! Just think, if ya got a nice little bolt gun, you'd have something for your boy to carry when he wants to go with ya...
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TOM64
Knows what it's all about
Member # 561
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posted August 30, 2016 05:06 AM
I think I figured it out, folks in ban states hate AR's and don't think anyone else should be able to use them either.
Posts: 2283 | From: okieland | Registered: Feb 2005
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted August 30, 2016 05:33 AM
Astute observation, Sir.
I keep hearing that the only purpose of those black guns is for killing humans?
One thing for sure, they do not make it very attractive
to buy any flavor of AR in Kalifornia. I think at this point, the fucking magazine is not removable, at all? How's that for Liberal Bureaucrats and their laws? And yet, they buy them that way, the public. The entire legislature is Democrat and with Fairy Jerry signing the Bills into law, we ain't got a chance.
Good hunting. El Bee
PS all the retailers are advertising whole category's of AR's with a notice that they will be banned January 1, 2017. Get 'em while they're hot!
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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3 Toes
El Guapo
Member # 1327
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posted August 30, 2016 05:29 PM
If I was in 49's position, I would get a .204 in either a bolt gun or an AR and never look back. I've been nothing but impressed with the killing ability of that cartridge. Wide choice of factory ammo, no ricochet worries, doesn't kick. For a shorter range deal it would be perfect.
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Violence may not be the best option....
But it is still an option.
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3 Toes
El Guapo
Member # 1327
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posted August 30, 2016 05:31 PM
Hey! Look at my post count! I hit 1000!
Is there an award or anything? I don't think I've ever hit a thousand anywhere.
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Violence may not be the best option....
But it is still an option.
Posts: 1034 | From: out yonder | Registered: Apr 2007
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted August 30, 2016 05:36 PM
Yeah, that's gotta be good for something? I can maybe change your custom title to The Wyoming Chatterbox? Let me know?
Also, understand your contributions are always welcome and appreciated.
Good hunting. El Bee
edit: by the way, that's actually a pretty good suggestion about the 204, except in an AR. Sorry, I can't get enthused.
[ August 30, 2016, 05:38 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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3 Toes
El Guapo
Member # 1327
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posted August 30, 2016 06:00 PM
I've owned a half dozen or so AR's. Sold every one of them. They just never blew my skirt up either LB, I was just thinking if 49 was set on an AR it would be an option. But he already has the R-15, so he's going to probably go to using that anyway.
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Violence may not be the best option....
But it is still an option.
Posts: 1034 | From: out yonder | Registered: Apr 2007
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Krustyklimber
prefers the bunny hugger pronunciation: ky o tee
Member # 72
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posted August 30, 2016 06:03 PM
This months Field & Stream has an article spelling out how the .223, in the AR platform in specific, is the ultimate all around hunting rifle and "may be the best varmint - and - predator cartridge of all". ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
Yeah, hunting here is like a stamp collection of properties...
Dave,
Is that the guy from FoxPro, the one that moved out that way from Baltimore (*Scott)?
Krusty
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Think about how stupid the average person is, then realize that half of them are stupider than that!
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TOM64
Knows what it's all about
Member # 561
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posted August 30, 2016 06:05 PM
Cal, didn't you have trouble with an AR in 204? Seems like one blew up or something.
Edit to add, I can't like a rifle length AR myself and only have loud obnoxious 16" carbine. My cousin has mostly 24" barrels on his and I hate em.
[ August 30, 2016, 06:07 PM: Message edited by: TOM64 ]
Posts: 2283 | From: okieland | Registered: Feb 2005
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted August 30, 2016 06:50 PM
So Tom, can you share with us the bullet and velocity in that coyote killing short barreled AR? Still sounds kinda marginal?
Good hunting. El Bee
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31472 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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TOM64
Knows what it's all about
Member # 561
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posted August 30, 2016 07:46 PM
Like I said, 55 grain Nosler Ballistic tip, TAC powder, CCI 41 primer gives me 3119 fps average in my 16" barrels. This one is a Noveske 1/7 twist light weight.
Of course I did have a spinner but the quick second shot made him all googly eyed...
I've got a few more pics but what more do you need?
Posts: 2283 | From: okieland | Registered: Feb 2005
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3 Toes
El Guapo
Member # 1327
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posted August 31, 2016 04:00 AM
YEP, I had one blow the magazine right out the bottom and destroy the gun. To this day I still don't know why. It wasn't a factory rifle. I had bought it off of the internet and I don't know who put it together or how well that was done. I had shot it quite a bit with the same load before she blew. I have had several experts weigh in and the most likely reason was the previous round had left something in the barrel. A bit of jacket or brass. I'll never know and I still don't like them.
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Violence may not be the best option....
But it is still an option.
Posts: 1034 | From: out yonder | Registered: Apr 2007
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DAA
Utah/Promoted WESTERN REGIONAL Hunt Director
Member # 11
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posted August 31, 2016 05:38 AM
Leonard, I hear ya on the advertising. Not too much to worry about here though. I mean, for one thing, it's just us here, right? ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
And more to the point, these were areas I never bother with later when the real action starts. They get absolutely hammered. They'll have been called pretty heavy by the time deer season ends around here and then after deer season they'll get absolutely over run with callers that are "big game hunters" before coyote hunters. Then, after Thanksgiving and especially right after Christmas, a hoard of noobs will hit it and come back bitterly disappointed in their lack of success. It's not quite on the beaten path, but not very far off it either. Guys without much experience think it's really "out there amongst 'em".
It's why I mentioned something along the lines of "skimming the early cream". I'd almost, but not quite, be willing to tell exactly where we were. I think that little of the areas, in the grand scheme.
Which, speaks to the downside of public land. Don't get me wrong, I'm not complaining, I feel blessed to have all this public land to hunt and wouldn't have it any other way. But it's a competition with every other caller in the state. And it never ends, never lets up. No honey hole is safe, or can be expected to stay good for long. That works to my advantage, over all, since coyote hunting is almost just an excuse to go wandering the big lonely spaces for me. But a lot of guys actually give up, before figuring it out. I used to be pretty free with advice on how I search out new spots, but I've gotten to where I'm even tight lipped with that, it just doesn't pay to help the competition.
- DAA
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"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter
Posts: 2676 | From: Salt Lake City, UT | Registered: Jan 2003
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DAA
Utah/Promoted WESTERN REGIONAL Hunt Director
Member # 11
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posted August 31, 2016 06:05 AM
Whoops! Wrong thread, lol!
- DAA
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"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter
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