|
Author
|
Topic: "Sweet spot" for different cartridges..
|
knockemdown
Our staff photo editing Guru, par excellence
Member # 3588
|
posted March 11, 2015 05:48 AM
The other thread got me thinking...
Gents dissing the .223, while stating how the .22-250 is a much better killer. Not disagreeing, but can't help but ponder about certain cartridges having a "sweet spot" set of ranges for where they really shine?
Consider this:
.224" 55Vmax from a .223 @ 3100fps MV.
At 300yds, velocity drops to ~2050fps.
Same bullet from a .22-250 @ 3650 MV.
At ~130yds, that 55Vmax has bled off 550fps and is now equal to the MV of a .223 (~3100)
At 300yds, velocity of a 55Vmax from the .22-250 is ~2500fps.
Following along with these #s, a 55Vmax from a .223 drops to ~2500fps @ about 170yds.
(proof that the 130yd disadvantage is holding true)
That said, shouldn't the .22-250 kill the same @ 300yds as a .223 does @ 170yds?
Same bullet, same velocity should perform identically, no?
From what it looks like, opting for the .22-250 over a .223 appears to afford a "+130yd" advantage over the .223 when using a 55gr bullet. In effect, the "sweet spot" for that particular bullet killing reliably is increased by that distance.
Just some food for thought...
[ March 11, 2015, 06:02 AM: Message edited by: knockemdown ]
Posts: 2202 | From: behind fascist lines | Registered: Mar 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
knockemdown
Our staff photo editing Guru, par excellence
Member # 3588
|
posted March 11, 2015 05:52 AM
And, since Leonard was gonna ask:
Along the same line of #s...
55Vmax @ 4050 from a .22-250AI
At 210yds, velocity drops to ~3100fps
So, effectively, a .22-250AI affords a "+210yd" advantage over the .223
And a "+70yd" advantage over the vanilla .22-250
Granted, these aren't hard & fast data points. Just trying to quantify what gents are seeing in the field regarding terminal performance...
[ March 11, 2015, 05:54 AM: Message edited by: knockemdown ]
Posts: 2202 | From: behind fascist lines | Registered: Mar 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
DAA
Utah/Promoted WESTERN REGIONAL Hunt Director
Member # 11
|
posted March 11, 2015 06:12 AM
I think that's all valid as far as it goes Fred. But, as I know you know, you have to add in a handful of additional variables that can really make things unclear. Like, twist, throat condition/bore quality and pressure. All of which have an effect on jacket integrity and terminal performance. And all of which can vary significantly between two rifles of the same chambering.
And of course, higher velocity isn't always an advantage, in killing coyote, either. There can be too much of a good thing, for a given bullet.
But, I accept your premise. I like to go fast.
- DAA
--------------------
"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter
Posts: 2676 | From: Salt Lake City, UT | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Brent Parker
Knows what it's all about
Member # 4354
|
posted March 11, 2015 06:51 AM
What about barrel twist? Do you feel like a 12 twist barrel kills the same as an 8 or 7 twist?
I ran a 12.5" .223 this season with a 7 twist barrel with 55 NBT at 2900. Shot coyotes from 35 yards to 265. All angles coming, going, quartering. Couple ran about 50 yards, most just fell down dead. I have noticed with a 7 twist they bleed considerable worse than with other rifles I have used just short of a 6 mm. How about the guys running the hot 22's anyone running a 7 or 8 twist? See different results?
Posts: 172 | From: 2 miles east of Vic | Registered: Mar 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
knockemdown
Our staff photo editing Guru, par excellence
Member # 3588
|
posted March 11, 2015 06:51 AM
True dat, Dave!
Surely not much more than an arbitrary comparison, using only baseline controls of same bullet @ same impact speed.
Along with what you mentioned, shot placement will always throw a wrench in the gears! Heck, I shot a coyote in OK last month with the .22-243AI @ 30yds. Shot behind the shoulder (my default setting for broadside) and that sucker did the macarena twirl into the dirt & died with its rear foot in its jaws. Can say with fair authority that the lack of instant bangfloppability wasn't due to a lack of horsepower. That 75Amax @ 3600 just sizzled right on thru, maybe quarter sized exit...
Shot one the next stand @ 175, quartering to on the point of the shoulder. Sounded like a kid getting pegged between the shoulder blades with a rubber dodgeball, and knocked that coyote ass over tea kettle. the spray of bone & gut shrapnel across that sprouting wheatfield was quite dramatic. Thoroughly enjoyable to see thru the scope, I might add ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
Anyhoo, much "better" terminal performance, despite increased distance & lower impact velocity, simply due to shot placement...
EDIT: Brent, this .22-243AI is a 1:8" twist
[ March 11, 2015, 06:55 AM: Message edited by: knockemdown ]
Posts: 2202 | From: behind fascist lines | Registered: Mar 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
UTcaller
NEVADA NIGHT FIGHTER
Member # 8
|
posted March 11, 2015 06:54 AM
I won't sit here and try to explain why I think a .223 is a piece of shit for called Coyotes because in all honesty I have absolutely no idea. Just saw runners time after time. Then I hear other guys like Leonard say the same thing. And like I said some of these shows just make me cringe every time they take a shot. And my favorite line is " He's dead he just doesn't know it yet". But whether I use my 17 Tactical or my 22-250 AI when I hit them they are usually dead and they know it. Lol And with both of the cartridges I mentioned shot placement is the same.
Good Hunting Chad
Posts: 1612 | From: Utah | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
|
posted March 11, 2015 07:23 AM
I certainly don't mind the conversation. But, this is old news.
Kinda Zen? Everything's relative, what's a couple hundred feet per second in this cosmic universe?
In other words, it's a waste of ink to talk about the shed velocity of a 22-250 at terminal distance of (say) 250 yards when it is really only equal to a 100 yard 223. Okay, I'm playing with numbers, too.
You need to compare 200 yards versus 200 yards, where I come from. Even then, the velocity of a particular bullet....it's just apples and oranges.
There is no universe where the 223 performance is equal to a 22-250, at any given distance. We shouldn't handicap these things by saying a 22-250 is really just a 223 when it gets way out yonder.
But, appreciate the posit, Fred. (in a food for thought, context)
Good hunting. El Bee
--------------------
EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31449 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
knockemdown
Our staff photo editing Guru, par excellence
Member # 3588
|
posted March 11, 2015 08:31 AM
quote:
There is no universe where the 223 performance is equal to a 22-250, at any given distance. We shouldn't handicap these things by saying a 22-250 is really just a 223 when it gets way out yonder.
Agree, to an extent.
But, one could maybe compare with similar baseline criteria to draw that type of conclusion...
From a 1:10 twist .223, 55 Vmax @ 3100
Bullet RPM = ~223,000
From a 1:12 twist .22-250, 55 Vmax @ 3650
Bullet RPM = ~219,000
Throat wear & bullet jacket integrity aside, when that 55gr Vmax hits a coyote at the same impact speed, how does it matter which cartridge launched it?
To that end, a .22-250 would indeed "degrade" to a .223's terminal performance with increased distance. And that distance would appear to be about + 130yds, give or take, given general data points.
Not arguing, but if the same bullet, spun at nearly the same RPM, hits a coyote at the same impact velocity, then how does the cartridge itself factor into the equation?
Posts: 2202 | From: behind fascist lines | Registered: Mar 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
Lone Howl
Free Trial Platinum Member & part-time language police
Member # 29
|
posted March 11, 2015 10:13 AM
I didnt bother to read the whole thread, I just know I hate .223 for coyote hunting.
Mark
--------------------
When tyranny becomes law, rebellion becomes duty.
Posts: 2083 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Fur_n_Dirt
So. Ariz. Zone Tech. Expert
Member # 4467
|
posted March 11, 2015 10:50 AM
I believe the first order effect is bullet type with so-so shot placement IMHO.
One day, I shot a "pup" with a 223 vmax from 15 yards. What happened? The fucking shoulder splattered and he ran away with three legs. I was shocked. Good thing my combo had a dead coyote round for him.
It would be enlighting to know how much "energy" transfer goes in for 223 versus 22-250 (as a function of yardage). I think a 10% change is not a big deal, but when its 20 and higher , I think that's significant.. Energy transfer into animal is also dependent on bullet type.
As you guys know, I have zero experience with 22-250 ackley , but that's about to change..
[ March 11, 2015, 10:52 AM: Message edited by: Fur_n_Dirt ]
--------------------
--- It's all simple if you know what you are doing ---
Posts: 437 | From: Tucson | Registered: Sep 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
TOM64
Knows what it's all about
Member # 561
|
posted March 11, 2015 12:34 PM
I know a 223 won't kill a coyote, especially from a short barreled 1/7 twist machine gun.
It's a good thing they don't know it.
I don't know guys, I've seen em spin with the 223, 22-250AI and even a 243AI but I've also seen em drop dead on the spot with the 223. All of my 223's are 1/7 twist and I shoot 55 NBT's or 77 SMK's. My 223AI is a 1/9 but I haven't shot it yet.
I even threatened to sell my 204 cause I lost 2 coyotes back to back with the 35 gr Berger but deep down I know it ain't the cartridges fault.
Posts: 2283 | From: okieland | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
|
posted March 11, 2015 01:26 PM
Tom, Tom, Tom, spurious argument. We stipulate that a 223 in capable hands can kill a coyote, at moderate ranges, if the coyote cooperates. I have been told that a 22 rimfire has killed a few coyotes.
But, even we experts lose a few, now and then. Right Lance? So, why not tilt the odds in our favor and use a cartridge that is a little more up to the task at hand?
You have a 22-250Ackley and a 243Ackley and are fucking around with an AR in 223 and claiming (what?) that it's just the ticket, suitable, marginal, overkill?
Well, as LBJ used to say: "Continya On".
Good hunting. El Bee
[ March 11, 2015, 01:28 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
--------------------
EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31449 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Fur_n_Dirt
So. Ariz. Zone Tech. Expert
Member # 4467
|
posted March 11, 2015 02:18 PM
Those look like whimpy coyotes, even a 22LR would have taken'em.. ;-)
[ March 11, 2015, 02:19 PM: Message edited by: Fur_n_Dirt ]
--------------------
--- It's all simple if you know what you are doing ---
Posts: 437 | From: Tucson | Registered: Sep 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
TOM64
Knows what it's all about
Member # 561
|
posted March 11, 2015 03:00 PM
We haven't had a good 12 page discussion in a while now...
I won't mention the 2-300 that my 222 fooled into playing dead. But to be fair that was years ago before the Internet.
Posts: 2283 | From: okieland | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
DanS
Scorched Earth (AZ Sector)
Member # 316
|
posted March 11, 2015 03:25 PM
I won't pretend to know the needs of an ADC or pro tournament hunter, I don't do that. I can only talk about what works in my little world on mostly 20-30lb canines. I often find my 22-250AI, 243, 6XC, 22XC or whatever flavor I am hunting with this week, too freaking loud. So I sometimes prefer my little 204 Ruger, a 17 centerfire, or 223AI because of a noise factor.
I believe 223's are perfectly capable of killing coyotes at reasonable distances. There are obviously better cartridges for killing coyotes. If you want them dead quicker or if you can't always wait for the better angle to shoot the critter. Saving fur not being part of the equation.
Fred, I am surprised that the 75 amax did what it did at that velocity and close distance. Not what I would have guessed. I just setup a little 1-8twist 223AI setup about the same specs and the Rem 700 LVSF, It loves those 75gr AMAX bullets and is a lot of fun so far. I did get to poke holes in paper and bang some steel out to only 300 yards last weekend.
--------------------
futuaris nisi irrisus ridebis
Saepe Expertus, Semper Fidelis, Fratres Aeterni:
Often Tested, Always Faithful. Brothers Forever!
Posts: 1465 | From: flyover country | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
knockemdown
Our staff photo editing Guru, par excellence
Member # 3588
|
posted March 12, 2015 03:53 AM
Dan, I've been finding that the Amax is something of a tuff little bullet. From the bunch of deer I've kilt with the 162Amax, several were passthrus. And the ones I've recovered retained quite a bit of weight, and had a shape reminiscent of a controlled expansion bullet. Have become a big fan of them for killin' shit. And have always read that the 75Amax/223AI combo is a giant killer, of sorts. Hope it works well for ya!!!
To the topic at hand, for shits & giggles, I compared a 223AI to a .22-243AI with a 75Amax using 2850 & 3600fps MV respectively. Using the same line of arbitrary logic from prior posts, the .22-243AI allows for a +300yd advantage over the .223AI. Doing so at nearly twice the powder consumption, so the lunch ain't free...
As an aside, I'm having built a 6-223AI, aka 6x45AI, aka 6TCU. Had a couple 6x45s on ARs and that little case was alot of fun. Kinda miss not having one around, so gonna swap a barrel out and make a handy little plinker out of one...
And to tie that tidbit back to the .223, I found that the 6x45 anchored the fuck outta the few coyotes I shot with it. Maybe the increased frontal mass of a 6mm bullet just hit harder? I remember killing coyotes with my old Bushy Varminter (1:9 .223) with 65Gamekings, and don't think I ever poleaxed one of 'em? But the 6x45 would groundcheck 'em right quick?
My sample size is negligible at best, just going on what little I remember. One thing I do like the .223 for is necking up/down to build a wildcat off of!!!
[ March 12, 2015, 03:59 AM: Message edited by: knockemdown ]
Posts: 2202 | From: behind fascist lines | Registered: Mar 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
DanS
Scorched Earth (AZ Sector)
Member # 316
|
posted March 12, 2015 02:23 PM
Fred, I have a 6mm Cheapshot. 6x47 (not Lapua, the one based off the 222mag) and it was chambered .085" short, so I could use 223 brass. It has a longer neck than the 6x45 and the neck is .062 so I have to turn. I use Wilson dies. It has hammered the coyotes at short range I have used it on. Brent has probably killed more with it than I have, and he seems to like it. It is very accurate, fun, and well cheap to shoot.
--------------------
futuaris nisi irrisus ridebis
Saepe Expertus, Semper Fidelis, Fratres Aeterni:
Often Tested, Always Faithful. Brothers Forever!
Posts: 1465 | From: flyover country | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
knockemdown
Our staff photo editing Guru, par excellence
Member # 3588
|
posted March 13, 2015 04:13 AM
Sounds cool, Dan!
Fun, accurate & cheap to shoot, that's the niche for this one. Are yours short barreled? Gonna go 22" on mine & call it good...
Posts: 2202 | From: behind fascist lines | Registered: Mar 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
Brent Parker
Knows what it's all about
Member # 4354
|
posted March 13, 2015 05:27 AM
Fred,
I have used mainly the 58 v max and the 60 HP Sierra bullet out of Dans rifle. Didn't get any exits with the 58 v max, all broadside shots with the 60's exited. Around a quarter to 50 cent pc. hole. Hammered our little coyotes well. Did notice a lot more bruising with it. Shot a few 4 corners area coyotes with it and 58's all DRT.
I keep threatening to borrow Dans rifle cut it to 16.5 inches and thread it... HAHA
Posts: 172 | From: 2 miles east of Vic | Registered: Mar 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
knockemdown
Our staff photo editing Guru, par excellence
Member # 3588
|
posted March 13, 2015 07:59 AM
Thanks for the info, Brent!
I was shooting the 60HP in my shorty as well, and had identical results. The b.c. on it sux azz, but that don't matter for shit inside of 200yds.
I remember shooting a red fox with one @ 15yds, broadside. Was cringing to see what bit & pieces were left of that pretty red, but to my satisfaction, that 60HP only left a dime sized exit.
Loaded 70gr Blitzkings for p-dogs, and they made for good carnage. The friend I sold one 6x45 to used that same load to fill a doe tag last year. Neck shot it, and it was effective but not pretty.
And I got the 55B-tips shootin' well too, but never kilt anything with 'em.
Such a fun little cartridge. This AI version is gonna wind up being my niece' rifle, instead of a .22-243Win. Don't need to have two firebreathers in .224 caliber...
Posts: 2202 | From: behind fascist lines | Registered: Mar 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
|
posted March 13, 2015 08:12 AM
I kind of got away from them but at one time, I loaded the 60gr. Sierra HP almost exclusively in my 6mmRem. The reason was that it was by far the most accurate bullet I had found and made me reevaluate that rifle. Eventually, I found a few others, but no doubt the gun is fussy. It happens.
Good hunting. El Bee
--------------------
EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31449 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Frank
CAN START A FIRE WITH A BUCK KNIFE AND A ROCK
Member # 6
|
posted May 09, 2016 10:54 AM
Catching up on some of the threads here and this one cracked me up "UTcaller - I won't sit here and try to explain why I think a .223 is a piece of shit for called Coyotes because in all honesty I have absolutely no idea".
I've hunted with allot of newbies who started off using .223 and it was the same ol story - runners. But then ya gotta keep in mind that hunting at night often means longer ranges and that could explain allot.
So if you're using a 24" rifle that makes decent velocity in the .223 and bullets are the same then what you end up with is a difference in effective range between the 250 and the .223. But when your talking an AR-15 (at least today's copycats of the M4) you get a 14.5" barrel with a fast twist.....maybe a 16" barrel if your lucky. Then you might get some bonehead using a 62Gr military bullet and you got a good fur gun that'll give you a nice hole in and a nice hole out. Unless you hit em right your gonna be lookin for em though. Now if you got an old "legacy" AR-15 with the 1:14 or 1:12 barrel and you use a 55Gr spitzer then you got a decent hunting rig.......just wont have the reach of a 250.
I won't sit here and try to explain why I think a .223 is a piece of shit for called Coyotes because in all honesty I have absolutely no idea. Hahahah, I needed a good belly laugh!
[ May 09, 2016, 11:04 AM: Message edited by: Frank ]
--------------------
"Truth is no prostitute, that throws herself away upon those who do not desire her; she is rather so coy a beauty that he who sacrifices everything to her cannot even then be sure of her favor".
Posts: 644 | From: North Dakota | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
|
posted May 10, 2016 07:10 AM
We will never convince these people, (you know who you are) that a 223 is not suitable for "our" purpose. I want them dead, not sorta dead, not 100 yard dead, but bang/flop deader than a door nail dead.
When you brush your teeth, do you pick a brush that has half the bristles removed? Why not jump in with both feet? A 223 is a lot like kissing your sister. I imagine, never done it, but french kissing your mom, maybe that illustrates the point?
I just feel sorry for those dull chaps that hunt coyotes with a 223. The whole world is at your door step, yet you pick such a piece of shit cartridge, with a 7 twist. Just ask yourself, what would DAA do? That other gearhead, Fred. What would he do?
Those guys would leave the 223 stacked behind the kitchen door. That's what Bernie Sanders would use. What would Trump use?
Now go forth and sin no more!
Good hunting. El Bee
[ May 10, 2016, 07:11 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
--------------------
EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31449 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Kokopelli
SENIOR DISCOUNT & Dispenser of Sage Advice
Member # 633
|
posted May 10, 2016 07:38 AM
Ah, what the Hell................
And then there's the fur damage factor.
True, I would rather sew than track but there are limits.
--------------------
And lo, the Light of the Trump shown upon the Darkness and the Darkness could not comprehend it.
Posts: 7576 | From: Under a wandering star | Registered: Apr 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Az-Hunter
Hi, I'm Vic WELCOME TO THE U.S. Free baloney sandwiches here
Member # 17
|
posted May 10, 2016 08:28 AM
Ive killed hundreds of coyotes, many, many bobcats, lots of fox, a dozen deer, several javelina, and a couple antelope with a .223. The discussion of a .223 being suitable for a coyote seems absurd to me?
Posts: 1627 | From: 5 miles west of Tim | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
Printer-friendly view of this topic
