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Author
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Topic: Questions on New Barrel for a .22-6mm Improved 40°
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Prune Picker
AR Forum Assistant Moderator-handgun GURU and dispenser of sage advice
Member # 4107
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posted March 27, 2014 01:30 PM
White Mtn Cur, the 69gr Nosler you are using for fire form loads is, according to Nosler, intended for the 223/5.56 Service Rifle(AR15)@ 3000fps max velocity, along with their 77gr bullet are designed for 600yd Palma Match's. Same for Sierra's 69,77,80&90gr .224 bullets. I assume that most, if not all of the VLD bullets in .224 regardless of make, were originally intended for paper targets, & maybe slightly modified for muslum radicals in war zones.
I personally would clean your barrel & change bullets before giving up, maybe get someone with a bore scope to take a peek, looking for carbon deposits so common with HiCap 22's. I shoot a 6mmAI W/9 twist, had a bud who loved the 22-6mm & 22-284 for PD's & other varmints. He tried the fast twists (6 1/2 thru 9) & the more common 12&13 but passed away before making a decision on the perfect twist for the perfect bullet in 22 cal.
I have some of his notes, but the info is over a dozen yrs old using IMR4895, W760& H414,& some discontinued Norma powders. Good luck with your project.
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mike
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knockemdown
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posted March 27, 2014 04:00 PM
Leonard, I doubt an 80Amax would stabilize in your 1:12 middie. Might give a 60gr JLK LD a try? Recommended twist is 1:12...
Swampworks JLKs
Could possibly squeeek by with the 65 LD, too, with enough launch speed. The bc on the flat base LD JLKs beat the flat base Berger offerings by a good bit...
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Leonard
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posted March 27, 2014 06:55 PM
Come on, Fred. I guess that's why we need to actually try these things. I have had no difficulty stabilizing 62 and 65 grain Bergers in the 22-243Middlested. Where are you getting your data?
I'm not grasping at straws. I have a settled load, sleep well at night.
Good hunting. El Bee
edit: but I sincerely appreciate your input and thank you for it, very much.
[ March 27, 2014, 07:04 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
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knockemdown
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posted March 28, 2014 03:48 AM
Leonard, data is coming from the link above that you apparently didn't click on.
Surf around & click on "LD bullets", You'll note that the .224 caliber offerings are spec'd with oal & bearing surface measurements, G1 bc., and recommdended twist rate.
Seeing as how those JLKs are used alot in the capacity Mike mentioned, I figure that recommended twist rate is for pedestrian service rifle launch speeds. So, that Middie of yours might just push 'em fast enough to get past the recommended twist, stated on the link.
That shit ain't gospel truth anyway, though I reckon Swampy has a pretty good handle on his custom boolits.
The 162Amaxs I run in my 7WSM clearly state "1:8 twist" right on the box, yet my Broughton 1:9 spins 'em plenty good. Go figure?
For your Middie, I do like the bc on those 65gr LD JLKs, though. Comparatively, the bc. on those flat base Bergers suck moose cock. And that shitty bc. is precisely the cause for seeing that wonderful launch speed pissed away and passed in 300yds by a slower, heavier, higher bc. bullet, when launched from a big .224.
K, I'm done.
signed, "Group B"
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3 Toes
El Guapo
Member # 1327
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posted March 28, 2014 05:44 AM
A couple quick points. There is a local smith here pushing the 22-243 hard. He builds tons of them for some of the local coyote hunters. Several I know well have had pressure issues in trying to get the 70 grain 22 calibers anywhere near 3500. Now that's not Ackley and it's also not 80 grain bullets so if your getting over 3500 with the 80s you are doing something ( and I believe you) that is magical and may not be repeatable. The next issue is running shots. We sometimes find it nessesary it seems and I do know that in that case I wish even my 22x47 was faster. I have shot various cartridges that were over 4 k and they were definitely easier to consistently kill running coyotes with. Leads seem way
more forgiving. With my 22x47 and the 62 grainers, I was
looking for a happy medium. Decent speed with better BC
than the old 52 and 55s everybody used to shoot. I'm not the guy to argue numbers or ballistics with anyone. I just am trying to use what I think is best for my purpose.
[ March 28, 2014, 05:46 AM: Message edited by: 3 Toes ]
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Violence may not be the best option....
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Leonard
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posted March 28, 2014 05:57 AM
Me neither, really. (and I did click the link) But, I tend to zone out, makes my head bleed.
There is/are applications for serious target work, which are stationary for the most part. That's a valid mention, what Cal says about necessary lead on a running animal. I need all the help I can get.
Okay, once I exhaust my supply of these slow bergers, I might look into JLK LD bullets, just because group B speaks so highly of them.
Good hunting. El Bee
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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DiYi
Wears wife's pink panties under his camo for good luck. (yeah, right!)
Member # 3785
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posted March 28, 2014 06:58 AM
Amen Cal,220 imp with 50 BTs @4200-4300 is the best medicine for runners I've ever used.
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Kelly Jackson
SECOND PLACE/GARTH BROOKS LOOK-A-LIKE CONTEST
Member # 977
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posted March 28, 2014 07:08 AM
Retumbo gave 100FPS over R22 with the 80's in my barrel. I hear you on the running shots. If I get 1/2 of them I feel lucky.
So what IS the OP goin to do???
[ March 28, 2014, 07:11 AM: Message edited by: Kelly Jackson ]
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Leonard
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Member # 2
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posted March 28, 2014 07:59 AM
Yes, where's Trevor?
Interestingly, in 25'06Ackley, I found R22 to be worth almost 200fps over previous powders W760 and IMR4831.
Good hunting. El Bee
edit: that's another thing. On my third 25'06AI I had long since decided that 100 grain bullets were the best for my purposes. I tried a few others in 117 and 120 grain, what were available at the time and couldn't shake the conviction that a simple 100 gr. Nosler ballistic Tip did what I wanted to do. Others may have performed better at extreme range and the 75 TNT and VMax showed much higher velocity, but that middle of the road 100 grainer just kept performing and I was infatuated, in love. I'm still using it in limited work, whenever I get up in Nevada, it just sits there until I need to kill a 400 yard coyote that won't run away.
I'm sure somebody can suggest a sexy bullet that looks good on paper but, no thank you. I have what works for me.
Good hunting. El Bee
[ March 28, 2014, 08:59 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
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knockemdown
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posted March 28, 2014 09:48 AM
In a quick ladder test against RL-25 in my .22-243Imp, H-1000 gave 150fps more, pushing 75Amaxs.
Gonna mess with that powder behind the 80Amax & JLK, see what shakes out...
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Leonard
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posted March 28, 2014 10:03 AM
Maybe none of the whippersnappers remember that during a previous shortage, when I wanted to look into H1000, it had virtually disappeared. I don't remember, maybe 10-12 years ago?
Just for orneriness I feel like a "Mano y Mano" putting my Middlested against that 22-243 that Fred is working with. What was the twist, on that beast, don't remember? I'm sure it's faster than my 1x12"?
You know what? I have a stack of sub .400" five shot groups from my 22-250Ackley, w/65 grain Bergers. That barrel has a (wait for it)
1 in 14" twist how is such a thing possible? Maybe it's because of the velocity? 3925fps, if anybody has forgotten.
We need to get to the bottom of this!
Good hunting. El Bee
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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DAA
Utah/Promoted WESTERN REGIONAL Hunt Director
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posted March 28, 2014 10:36 AM
FWIW, which is nothing, just a factoid, but Blaine was shooting the old Berger 64's in his .22-284, which is a 15 twist. He was pushing them well over 4K.
- DAA
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"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter
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knockemdown
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posted March 28, 2014 10:51 AM
Berger recommends a 1:12" twist for that 64, so don't doubt the crazy velocity intentionally compensating for slower twist.
Leonard, get a Campout lined up FOR REAL this year!
I will fly out & bring this 22-243Imp (1:8 Brux) and we can have some fun shootin' shit & comparing notes between rifles...
THAT WAS NOT A CHALLENGE!!!
Please don't misunderstand my intentions.
I'd love the opportunity to meet everyone, chew the fat & shoot rifles!!!
Maybe there's a spot where we could put a bunch of targets up from realistic distances of 1-400yds, and see what shakes out.
Prone, stixs, whatever...that'd be a pisser!!!
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Leonard
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posted March 28, 2014 11:17 AM
Fred, I am still chewing on Jiff peanut butter, smooth, per your recommendation. I can't wait to finish this jar and start on the other one, (Costco) because then I am that much closer to going back to Skippy Crunchy. Victor was also in on that deal so there is enough blame to "spread" around. ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
You desire shooting contests? How about Vic showing us how to shoot tossed eggs with a 22, you might want to practice for that one. Sometimes **** is involved, like I can pick up a chair, one handed, by one leg, and can tear a phonebook in half. At one time, that is.
Dave, that's interesting about Blaine's rifle. I had 55's going about 4400, if only they would hold together?
Good hunting. El Bee
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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DAA
Utah/Promoted WESTERN REGIONAL Hunt Director
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posted March 28, 2014 11:33 AM
Blaine was beyond the pale with his loads.
Fred, you might remember, I got a .20 Dasher barrel from him? He included some loaded ammo in the deal.
I could tell right away those loads were too hot for my taste. Sticky/stiff bolt lift and all that. But I shot them up anyway, easier than pulling bullets. About 40 rounds worth.
So, anyway, only put a few rounds through it to get zeroed 1.5" high at 100 and then went out to kill 'chucks with it.
I missed my first three shots in a row on a couple 'chucks out around 370 yards (lased, not estimated). My buddy spotting for me kept telling me "high" and I could see it for myself though the scope, I was hitting high.
Could not hardly reckon it though. The target cross section on a chuck laying facing you is only a couple of inches. I knew the rifle was dead nutz 1.5" high at 100. Therefore, I KNEW it had to be a bit low at 370. So I was holding right on the high side hair line of those 'chucks but hitting just slightly higher than I was holding.
Accepted it, adjusted my hold, started splatting 'chucks.
Later, I clocked those loads. 39BK's at 4675 fps! You want to talk FLAT! Holy shit...
Like I said, Blaine like to tip the powder can for sure. Beyond the pale...
Still, my perfectly sane working load for that rifle still has those 39BK's zipping along better than 4400. Still pretty dang flat. Kinda lacking in the "air time" department though. Still much prefer my .22-250AI w/55 Vmax for 'chucks. Sends 'em to the moon.
- DAA
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"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter
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knockemdown
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posted March 28, 2014 11:37 AM
Dude, ya lost me on the Jif part, but I was responding to the "mano y mano" part, from earlier.
After all, what kinda man would I be if I tossed all kinds of "BC" this, and "fast twist" that crap around, but slinked away at the opportunity to let the rifle do the talking?
If the opportunity arises (read: Campout), I'd love it to get together and do some shooting! NOT under the pretenses that I extended to dickweed last winter, but in the genuine spirit of good fun!!!
Wouldn't be worth flying across the country, otherwise...
EDIT: was typing with ya, Dave!
I remember that. Fuckin' crazy!!!
Still have yet to get a handle on that pencil contour 1:14 Hart in .22BR I got through you. Think its still floating somewhere around one of Utah's orbital rings? Dunno...
[ March 28, 2014, 11:41 AM: Message edited by: knockemdown ]
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Leonard
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posted March 28, 2014 11:44 AM
I'm most definitely with you, Dave. I like performance as much as the next guy but will not push the pressures. It has to be something durable and reloadable. I will not tolerate pierced primers and split necks. And, I almost always get more than ten reloads from my performance arsenal.
Good hunting. El Bee
edit: Fred, it's ALL good natured. All of it.
[ March 28, 2014, 11:48 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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knockemdown
Our staff photo editing Guru, par excellence
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posted March 28, 2014 11:45 AM
And speaking of Peanut butter, Leonard...
When you see this Micky stock that's coming for the .22-243Imp, you're gonna crack up! Ordered it in December, should be here in the next few weeks..
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Leonard
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posted March 28, 2014 11:50 AM
I can't wait, Fred. Wish I had your money!
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
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Leonard
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posted March 28, 2014 12:11 PM
Fred, the attitude at the campout is not competitive, no balls to the walls dawn to dusk hunting. I think it's mostly visiting with friends and casually doing a little hunting, when it strikes our fancy.
I have been involved in more hunting contests than most people. It's a different set up, entirely. And, that's why, from the start, we have called it a campout and not a hunt.
Good hunting. El Bee
PS hey, shouldn't you be working?
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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TOM64
Knows what it's all about
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posted March 28, 2014 02:30 PM
Interesting point Cal brings up about runners.
As promised, we shot today to 800 yards and the results? I have 2" less wind drift and make the plates swing a little harder. Way too much time for the bullet to reach a live target with either one. Unless the target insists on staying put.
So really I didn't see much difference tween the 105 and the 87 gr bullets. Oh I know there's a difference but maybe not enough to bet the farm on.
And at 500 yards it's a draw regardless what the numbers say and for killing coyotes that's plenty far enough.
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WhiteMtnCur
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posted March 28, 2014 06:40 PM
I really appreciate all the insight.
Based on this discussion, I am confident in choosing a 1:12 twist. Well, until Leonard and Dave decided to discuss slow twists adequately stabilizing 65gr bullets…
I'll attempt to get the 65gr JLK over 4000 with satisfactory performance. If the 65gr JLK doesn’t make the cut than I’ll use the 60gr JLK as option #2.
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Leonard
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posted March 28, 2014 07:30 PM
As long as you get somewhere in the neighborhood of 190,000RPM, that should be considered stabilized for our purposes. You can do it with barrel twist and/or sometimes velocity turns the trick.
Good hunting. El Bee
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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TOM64
Knows what it's all about
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posted March 29, 2014 04:18 AM
I don't think the 1/12 will work with the JLK bullets unless you use the special run of flat base JLK's.
Edit: ok the flat based 65 LD bullets are recommended for an optimal 1/10 twist so pushing them that fast will probably work.
[ March 29, 2014, 07:34 AM: Message edited by: TOM64 ]
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DanS
Scorched Earth (AZ Sector)
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posted March 29, 2014 09:07 AM
How much speed do you guys think could be obtained using a 1-14 twist instead of a 1-12, or even a 1-10 for that matter?
[ March 29, 2014, 09:09 AM: Message edited by: DanS ]
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