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Author
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Topic: .17-204 AI
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92soggy
Knows what it's all about
Member # 4362
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posted January 30, 2014 07:56 PM
Has anyone done one? Would there be much benefit besides improved brass?
Posts: 39 | From: Washington | Registered: Mar 2013
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DAA
Utah/Promoted WESTERN REGIONAL Hunt Director
Member # 11
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posted January 31, 2014 04:15 AM
Wouldn't bother to AI it. For a lot of reasons.
- DAA
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"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter
Posts: 2676 | From: Salt Lake City, UT | Registered: Jan 2003
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knockemdown
Our staff photo editing Guru, par excellence
Member # 3588
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posted January 31, 2014 06:19 AM
A couple Utah buddies of mine ran a .17Predator reamer down deeper into the chamber to utilize the longer .204 case. The original .17P is built around a .223 case. The idea was spawned over a mistake, and the result is what I'd consider a .17/204 "Improved". Not Ackley-fied, though...
They eventually named this case, the .17WCH (western coyote hunter). It still retains the 30° shoulder of the parent .204 case, thanks to the .17P's identical shoulder angle. But the by-product of running a .17P reamer down to work with a .204 is a couple thou. wider shoulder, and slightly shorter neck over the parent case. Those two factors net an increase in case capacity over the straight necking down to 17/204.
But again, the shoulder is not "Ackley-ed" to 40°...
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TOM64
Knows what it's all about
Member # 561
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posted January 31, 2014 10:18 AM
Curious as to why Dave wouldn't AI it.
KJ AI'd the 204 and got a pretty good gain.
Me, I'd AI everything and will.
Posts: 2283 | From: okieland | Registered: Feb 2005
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DAA
Utah/Promoted WESTERN REGIONAL Hunt Director
Member # 11
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posted January 31, 2014 10:57 AM
Well, for one, a 30* shoulder is just fine. Yeah, a 40* can be better. But it can also be a potential source for finicky feeding, sometimes.
But the "AI" deal isn't just increasing shoulder angle. It's also reducing body taper. The .204 already has minimal body taper.
It's not like you should ever have to trim them with the 30*, either.
I just don't see where there is going to be much gained there.
But, aside from that...
One of the attractive attributes of the .17-204, to me, is just how stupid easy it is. No custom or semi custom dies. No fireforming. Just buy some decent .204R bushing dies off the shelf, add the right sized bushing, maybe polish down the decapping pin keeper, neck 'em down and go. You can seat the .17's with the unaltered .204R die, no problemo.
With the AI version, you're into expensive die country. Unless you never intend to FL size.
Then, there's the performance angle. The specific performance angle. Specific performance in this instance, I'm guessing, being shooting 30 gr. bullets at coyotes. My experience, and keeping my ears open to the experiences of others, most 30 gr. bullets are going to start showing some erratic terminal ballistics when pushed beyond about 4200 fps.
So, to me, in this instance, the gains to be had might not even be gains? Depending how you look at it?
Fred mentioned the WCH. I'm not criticizing, at all. Whatever floats a fellas boat is fine by me. And for that matter, some projects you just have to try and see and sometimes things just don't go quite as smooth as planned. But, anyway, I've talked to Kerry and JR about their WCH's, and to me, they aren't a success. Both of them found they couldn't use full throttle loads without poofs in only a couple hundred rounds. Then found erratic terminal performance still, at the velocity they can get to.
Just one mans opinion, subject to change without warning, but to me, if the object is .17 caliber, 30 gr. bullets, for coyote, there actually can be too much of a good thing.
To summarize, I think the plain .17-204 is a lot easier, cheaper and likely to kill coyotes every bit as well.
It will lose in the velocity department. A department I dearly hate to lose in. But, those 30's do seem to have a sweet spot and the .204 case, when enlarged, has the potential to go beyond that sweet spot.
So many variables though. Not for me to try and predict what is going to happen with any project. Not even my own.
And anyone that just feels like doing it, I say more power to them.
This is just one, that I, wouldn't...
- DAA
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"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter
Posts: 2676 | From: Salt Lake City, UT | Registered: Jan 2003
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knockemdown
Our staff photo editing Guru, par excellence
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posted January 31, 2014 11:28 AM
Yep, if I recall correctly, Kerry & JR were trying to 'clean up' a .17Rem barrel by chambering it into a .17Predator. They found that they had to go deeper than previously thought, so just figured to swag it and set headspace with a .204 parent case, as opposed to the shorter .223 case.
Kerry wound up getting over 4500fps with the 30Golds! But, that was just too much for the little bullet to take after a short while and he backed down into the <4300 range, if I remember right...
Hunted with JR & Kerry in Nevada, and JR hit a 40yd coyote with his WCH...looked like you tomahawked a can of Smuckers Raspberry on the ribs. Wicked surface splash!
So, like Dave eluded to, sometimes too much of a good thing, proves to not be a such a good thing. Still pretty crazy to get those numbers, though!
My Predator is cruising in traffic @ 4075-80, last I checked...pedestrian speed in the world of the .17/204. Just finishing up on the 4th loading of my original 100pc. of Lapua brass. Bushing neck sizing each time, haven't had to bump a shoulder, or trim yet...
Posts: 2202 | From: behind fascist lines | Registered: Mar 2010
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted January 31, 2014 12:15 PM
I think like Dave, although I appreciate Tom's attitude about Ackleying everything. But, if trimming is not necessary in a 30 deg shoulder, and you can't find a bullet to handle the velocity any way? Well, like he says, some dies are more spendy than others.
Does anybody make a copper slug that will seal in a seventeen bore? But, would hydrostatic shock blow the shit out of a coyote at that speed, or no?
However, the main reason why I stuck my nose into a 17 thread is: who the hell is, "JR & Kerry"? And what are they doing taking a Yankee into my hunting areas?
Good hunting. El Bee
[ January 31, 2014, 12:15 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31459 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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UTcaller
NEVADA NIGHT FIGHTER
Member # 8
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posted January 31, 2014 02:49 PM
I shot alot of the 30 grain golds when I first got my 17 Tactical and they did very well at around 3950 fps. They killed coyotes very well out past 300 yards, but I got a little more fur damage than I liked so I went back to the 25 grain Berger match and am running them about 4100 fps and I have been very pleased at there performance. I feel very confident with this combo on coyotes to almost 300 yards and fur damage is usually non existent.
So for what they are used for (coyote fur harvesting)I really think optimal speed for the hot 17's is in the 4000-4200 with 25-30 grain bullets any more and I think you will get inconsistent results.
Good Hunting Chad
Posts: 1612 | From: Utah | Registered: Jan 2003
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TOM64
Knows what it's all about
Member # 561
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posted January 31, 2014 03:25 PM
Well you've heard about the old bull and the young bull...
Thanks Dave for putting things into perspective.
Posts: 2283 | From: okieland | Registered: Feb 2005
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DanS
Scorched Earth (AZ Sector)
Member # 316
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posted January 31, 2014 03:48 PM
I like running both bullets the 25gr and the 30 around 4000. But I rare shoot past 200-300 yards.
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futuaris nisi irrisus ridebis
Saepe Expertus, Semper Fidelis, Fratres Aeterni:
Often Tested, Always Faithful. Brothers Forever!
Posts: 1465 | From: flyover country | Registered: Feb 2004
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Kelly Jackson
SECOND PLACE/GARTH BROOKS LOOK-A-LIKE CONTEST
Member # 977
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posted January 31, 2014 05:38 PM
I got a cigar box of 17-204 brass that needs trimmed.....I hate to trim. If I had it to do again it would be a 17-204AI just for that.
Not so much for the added MV.
So far I guess I have been lucky on the feeding issues. The 243AI's, 204AI and now the 22-243AI feed without issue.
edit to change shit pot load to cigar box to be more accurate.
[ January 31, 2014, 05:40 PM: Message edited by: Kelly Jackson ]
Posts: 997 | From: Comanche OK | Registered: Oct 2006
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Dave Allen
Hi, I'm SUPER DAVE, IN CHARGE OF Q STUFF (and Goat Leader) "I'm really not trying to be a dick".
Member # 3102
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posted January 31, 2014 05:57 PM
So, curious are you guys good with the Kindler Golds ? I know Nagels were the bomb for awhile.
It doesn't appear, from what I've read the Berger match isn't really an option anymore ?
[ January 31, 2014, 05:59 PM: Message edited by: Dave Allen ]
Posts: 1986 | From: Jordan Valley Oregon | Registered: Aug 2008
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DAA
Utah/Promoted WESTERN REGIONAL Hunt Director
Member # 11
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posted January 31, 2014 05:59 PM
Kelly, just out of curiosity, are you sure it actually needs to be trimmed. And if does, do you FL size?
I can honestly say, I have not had any of my brass actually NEED trimming in a long, long time. Like... 20 years? And even then, had I known what I later learned, I bet even that stuff didn't actually need it.
The day I started measuring my chamber lengths, was the day my trimmer got retired.
Granted, tapered cases are going to grow. And if they get FL sized every time, they might even grow enough to actually need trimming.
And I don't use any machine guns. I'm talking bolt rifles only here.
But neck sizing, only bumping when needed, I shit you not, I have NEVER had brass get close enough to actual chamber length to be worth caring about.
Hell, just the opposite, for me. Once I realized just how long my chambers actually are, I want that brass to GROW! Just knowing that gap is there between the end of the case neck and that mean little shoulder where the chamber neck ends and thinking about my bullets trying to get past there without compromising the jacket. Makes me want to close that gap...
If they need trimmed they need it though.
- DAA
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"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter
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Kelly Jackson
SECOND PLACE/GARTH BROOKS LOOK-A-LIKE CONTEST
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posted January 31, 2014 06:17 PM
Dave - I will check. Have the tools, just never took the time to check the chamber length on that 17-204.
On the 17-204 and 204AI neck size only.
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UTcaller
NEVADA NIGHT FIGHTER
Member # 8
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posted January 31, 2014 06:25 PM
I think i have around 150 of the 25 grain Berger Match bullets left when those are gone I'll probably go to either the 25 grain golds I have left or the genco 26 grain rbbt bullets i have .I might just start buying the Kindler 25 grain bullet that has the smaller .050 boat tail they seem to be very close to the same bullet as the 25 grain Berger Match. I do still have a box of 30 grain golds and a box of 27 grain golds if needs be.
Good Hunting Chad
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DAA
Utah/Promoted WESTERN REGIONAL Hunt Director
Member # 11
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posted January 31, 2014 07:20 PM
Kelly, it also just occurred to me, and I really ought not be so forgetful about it, but not everyone has the same loading practices I do.
I use bushing dies, no expanders. When I do need to bump the shoulder or FL size, that's all I do and I use body dies or bump dies to do it.
And almost all my chambers are tight neck. The ones that aren't tight neck, are custom necked and throated to the brass I already had in hand.
So, my brass gets worked the absolute minimum.
Using a die with an expander, especially with a larger chamber neck, that's an area I haven't visited in so long I can't even comment.
So... Just because my necks never need trimmed, doesn't mean yours or anyone else's might not!
And I apologize if I got you off on a wild goose chase. It really is bad form for me to project my loading habits on others.
- DAA
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"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter
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92soggy
Knows what it's all about
Member # 4362
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posted January 31, 2014 07:20 PM
Thanks for the replies guys, DAA's post makes a lot of sense to me. Guess I will stick with the standard chambering.
On a somewhat different note, is neck turning required when using bushing dies? How much clearance does a guy want in the neck portion of the chamber?
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TOM64
Knows what it's all about
Member # 561
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posted January 31, 2014 08:30 PM
While I never considered my reloading practices state of the art, I did think I took great care in producing quality ammo.
Not so much anymore.
Posts: 2283 | From: okieland | Registered: Feb 2005
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted January 31, 2014 09:27 PM
I went from a 220Swift to my first Ackley, a 25'06AI. From that point forward, I have never trimmed necks. Some are tighter than others and I use bushing dies on some, sometimes I use neck dies and even FL dies depending. My current 25'06Ackley, I bought 200 PMC 270Winchester brass because of the flash hole and the longer length. Still, when fire forming, the length will get shorter because of blowing out the body and shoulder, thereafter I have never trimmed an Ackley case, and that first 25'06 was built by P.O. Ackley himself, in the early 70's. I have had three of them, 25'06Ackleys.
Good hunting. El Bee
PS I have two 6mmRemingtons and a 243W that need a little neck trimming once in a while, a great while. I don't trim my 300WM, doesn't need it?
edit: I used a 220Swift for about 15 years. Now, that's a neck trimming bitch! So was my 270.
[ January 31, 2014, 09:33 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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TOM64
Knows what it's all about
Member # 561
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posted February 01, 2014 04:04 AM
I've had 2 25-06AI's, a 243AI and this 22-250AI, while cuzz has 2 macihine guns in 223AI and all have fed perfectly but I've read about the possibility of them being finicky.
The 25-06 I never really got to find out about and the 22-250 is too new but the 243AI I shot the piss out of and never trimmed those cases. That was a big reason I chose the 22-250AI, I'm always trimming the vanilla version. But after I finish off these 3-400 rounds I have loaded, my Remington 22-250 is going in for a new tube and it will be Ackley'd!
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Kelly Jackson
SECOND PLACE/GARTH BROOKS LOOK-A-LIKE CONTEST
Member # 977
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posted February 01, 2014 07:24 AM
Dave I always appreciate your comments. I know you have plowed these fields way before and deeper than I have for sure.
Off to the gunsmith to pick up another 22-243AI. Gonna get it started for a buddy of mine.
Yall stay after them
Kelly
Posts: 997 | From: Comanche OK | Registered: Oct 2006
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DanS
Scorched Earth (AZ Sector)
Member # 316
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posted February 08, 2014 06:36 AM
Kelly,
Did you use a 22-243AI on that Furtakers episode? What bullet and twist are you using?
I have a couple 223AI's with 1-8 twist. I was thinking of punching one out to 22-243 just for grins. But prolly won't 'cause I really like my 22-250AI, just swell.
Back on the subject of 17's, I am giving serious thought to a AR15 in 17-223. My CZ in 17-204 is the mostest bestest favorite coyote rifle for out west, and I like it best with the 30gr Nagals over the Golds. Haven't tried the 30gr Hammets yet. The AR is at another level, probably, mostly just to piss off the anti's and the AR haters, perhaps!
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futuaris nisi irrisus ridebis
Saepe Expertus, Semper Fidelis, Fratres Aeterni:
Often Tested, Always Faithful. Brothers Forever!
Posts: 1465 | From: flyover country | Registered: Feb 2004
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted February 08, 2014 07:15 AM
That's a low blow! Me and Barry Obama, AR haters. In the same boat. What have I done? <sob>
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31459 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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DanS
Scorched Earth (AZ Sector)
Member # 316
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posted February 08, 2014 07:52 AM
Sorry LB, I guess some of your generation just rubbed off on me. Just being a little Anarchistic. <chuckle>
Sadly, BO is only a few months older than me. The Pepsi generation, I think I still have that little card from the seventies too.
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futuaris nisi irrisus ridebis
Saepe Expertus, Semper Fidelis, Fratres Aeterni:
Often Tested, Always Faithful. Brothers Forever!
Posts: 1465 | From: flyover country | Registered: Feb 2004
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Prune Picker
AR Forum Assistant Moderator-handgun GURU and dispenser of sage advice
Member # 4107
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posted February 09, 2014 12:54 AM
What DAA said earlier should be chiseled in stone. One of the biggest reasons AI's have good case life is probably due to fact that a custom reamer is normally used. Add a gunsmith instead of a factory worker cutting the chamber, who is paying attention to chamber specs & headspace instead of a time clock and you get a true custom job. DAA mentioned removing as much taper in the case as possible without causing chambering problems, BINGO! Doing so removes the back thrust of the brass during firing cycle, and almost eliminates any case stretch. Plus it allows a higher pressure load to be fired safely without over pressure signs like case partial case separation or separation. The overall concept allows us to load to higher pressures (within reason) with min case loss.
Roy Huntington from RCBS fame built his version of the 257 Roberts Improved, using a 28* shoulder while reducing case taper comparable to the Ackley 40* version. Mr Huntington claimed the same velocity's without the need to alter feed rails to get 100% positive feeding.
I have a couple of AI's with the P.O. Ackley 40* shoulder, none of my rifles required feed rail alteration on M700's, M98's, or M70's. But none the less if I build a 17-204 I will follow Dave's advice to the letter. Thank you Dave for posting.
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mike
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