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Author
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Topic: primer pockets. how tight
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the bearhunter
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posted January 12, 2014 04:08 PM
do they need to be before you guys toss the brass?.
i'm finding out these hot .17's are damn tough on brass.
just got done priming 100 cases and ended up throwing 13 due to the ease of the primers going in.
there were a couple that went in so easy, it was tough to tell a primer got seated. the others were light enough to feel them but not much push needed. these are with a hand priming tool.
what is your guy's criteria for pitching brass?
also, dumped a whole flat of Rem 7.5's on the floor ![[Mad]](mad.gif) them sunsabitches are hard to find.
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Prune Picker
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posted January 12, 2014 04:45 PM
Bear, I have in the past switched to CCI primers to get an xtra reload out of my brass with loose primer pockets. I haven't measured the od of them to confirm it but they have always offered more resistance when seating vs WW & Rem primers. As far as how hot you are loading, I wouldn't even try and guess with the extreme cold you fellers are exposed to.
I have seen all kinds of claims from the powder pimps saying their powder isn't sensitive to temp changes and not for a second do I believe it. To me, a max load is a max load. If you reload in the hottest part of the year to find the max generally you "should be safe" in the dead of winter, but I've never been exposed to minus 20 or colder.
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mike
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DAA
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posted January 12, 2014 04:56 PM
Basically a matter of "feel" for me, not something I could describe very well. But I know a loose pocket when I feel one, when seating primers with my old Sinclair priming tools.
Seeing evidence of leaks from the last loading play a part too. If I can see they were leaking last time around, I might just ditch them without bothering to see how they feel seating a new primer.
FWIW, using IMI .223 brass in my .17P, I'm up to I think 7 loads on some of them, all still tight. Made the last batch out of Lapua and loaded a few of them repeatedly, just to see, I know they were still tight after 7 goes. That's kind of my yardstick for a hot rod hunting rifles, 7 loads per. I'll usually back off the load if I can't get at least that many. Getting way more than that is way better, of course, and a lot of the brass for my rifles has 10 or more loads and still going strong. Some of my .22BR brass has been loaded 40 times.
- DAA
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"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
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Leonard
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posted January 12, 2014 05:06 PM
What brass are you using? I hope not Federal? Lapua is good strong brass.
But, if they go in a little too easy, I discard them.
Enlarged primer pockets are the result of excessive pressure. Now, the solution is, adjusting your load so that you don't enlarge primer pockets. Pure performance at the expense of your valuable components is not my idea of smart hand loading.
The other thing is, in most of those sub calibers, a max load is very critical. Two tenths more and you are blowing primers. In a hunting rig, it's better to develop a safe load rather than squeeze the last ounce of performance.
I would say, 13 out of 100 is unacceptable. You need to reevaluate.
Good hunting. El Bee
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the bearhunter
HM PROSTAFF & MIDWEST REGIONAL GURU VOTED MOST HANDSOME MINNESOTAN
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posted January 12, 2014 06:00 PM
good info gents.
i'm not keeping track of how many loading there are on the brass. between mine and DiYi's, it gets confusing.
the last batch of winchester .204 brass i got (200), some were VERY loose from the first loading.
i did report to them and sent some back for them to evalute the problem. this was about a month ago and have not heard back.
hornady brass seems to be a bit better so far.
Dave, are you saying you can look at a fired round and see a problem from the last firing?.
i've looked at many fired rounds (primer pocket) and have never looked for that problem before.
Prune, i've used cci for 30 years and agree, they do (seem) to be tighter tolerences?
i was told to use rem 7.5's for these 17's so i quess thats what i've used.
maybe i'll try a few cc br's and see.
LB, you shoot a hotrod .22. how many rounds are you getting per case?.
granted, .204 brass is fairly easy to get and reletivly cheep but the prosess of necking it down takes some time.
and LB. if i see federal brass, it goes in the junk bin!!!
.
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TOM64
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posted January 12, 2014 06:12 PM
Federal 223 brass is junk, I've lost primers in machine guns with mid range loads. I now use Lapua brass on my AI's due to Dave's suggestion.
If you're loading good brass, then I'd back off a bit.
But you know that, the real reason I responded is to kinda hijack. Have any of you heard of a safe load in the heat turning hot during cold temps?
I have a friend I shoot with and he had a pistol load that gained pressure in the cold. I can't remember what caliber or powder but the guy shoots a lot and knows what he's talking about. Bears cold temps and loose primers brought this to my mind. A possibility?
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CrossJ
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posted January 12, 2014 06:24 PM
What types of cold temps are we talking about Tom?
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Leonard
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posted January 12, 2014 06:26 PM
To answer the question about hotrod 22 centerfires.
I own a 22-250Ackley that is as hot as any I have ever heard of. The rifle used to be a 220Swift but that was about twelve years ago. I started with 200 PMC cases and I am still using them although I'm down to a little less than 150 and most of them are just lost, not split necks or enlarged primer pockets.
That's just the way I do things. I handload for 20+ cartridges and routinely get at least ten reloads from a case. I have never seen the advantage of squeezing the last few FPS from a load. If that's my purpose, I need to buy a more powerful cartridge/barrel combo. not play with excessive pressures. I never have and never will.
I can probably count the pierced primers and split necks I have ever had, wild ass guess maybe three dozen in over 40 years. The reason I retire brass, which is not very often is primarily because of loose primer pockets and I do not screw with them, I cull them early.
Other than that, I don't have all the answers. I am just conservative in my loads, I do not want a problem in the field. If I get slightly degraded performance in cold conditions, I adjust my zero and deal with it.
I know, knew a guy, passed away about two years ago that shoots nothing but 220Swift, which is strong brass to begin with. But he said he has to toss cases after two loads. I never had a problem like that and I used a Swift exclusively for 15 years, killed thousands of animals with it. And, I always got good serviceability, using WW brass. I don't push it, it's just asking for trouble you don't need.
Good hunting. El Bee
edit: yeah, depending on how cold, frozen ammo can be a problem which is why some people I know use mag primers for sperical powders in sub zero weather.
[ January 12, 2014, 06:29 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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the bearhunter
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posted January 12, 2014 06:26 PM
sounds opposite too me.??
edited: this is for toms post.
Leonard, do you not shoot a .22-243??
[ January 12, 2014, 06:34 PM: Message edited by: the bearhunter ]
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DAA
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posted January 12, 2014 06:29 PM
Tom, I have heard/read about the possibility. And I think I even experienced it, many, many years ago, with H380 in a .22-250 and -20F temps. But I've long since forgotten the theory, or plausible explanation behind it.
Nothing to back it up, but me, yeah, I think it's possible.
Dave, yes, you can see primer leaks on the brass. They are pretty obvious. I can probably find some examples and take some pictures tomorrow. But small leaks, what I call "comet tail" leaks, because that's what the black marks on the head of the case look like - comet tails, those are very, very common. And I don't worry about them, they happen a lot. But when you see a primer that has leaked around most or all of it's circumference - a black burn ring around the primer, those are the ones that go in the trash without bothering to seat a new primer. Those cause gas cutting on your bolt face too.
The feel thing, it depends a lot on the priming tool you use. The old affordable Lee tool, gives good feel. Good enough to know a loose pocket. I just wore out the guts on them often enough that I switched to Sinclair tools about 20 years ago. They give even better feel, and so far, it looks like mine are going to last a helluva lot longer than I am! I have two, so I can keep one setup for LR's and one for SR's.
- DAA
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"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
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DAA
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posted January 12, 2014 06:37 PM
Leonard, that PMC is some STRONG brass. At least in certain chamberings. Seems like it generally gets a bad rap, on the 'net, but I think it was some damn good brass. Hasn't been made for a long time now though.
IMI .223 is another that is hell for strong. I like it so much I went to the trouble of making all my Mach IV and .221 cases from it.
Pressure is what enlarges primer pockets, no two ways about that. But all brass is not created equal in this area, either. Some types hold a primer pocket tight much, much better than some others.
A few years ago when Lapua .22-250 brass first became available... Well, no, actually it was before it became available, a friend/contact sent me a couple hundred pre-production samples to play with. But, anyway, I did some testing with it against good old WW .22-250. Just took a handful of each, started loading them with a known hot load, firing, reloading, until the WW brass wouldn't hold a primer anymore. Literally, the primers would just fall out. The new Lapua was still good to go. So, yeah, it was pressure and too much of it enlarging those primer pockets, but the Lapua held up to the punishment much better.
- DAA
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"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter
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DAA
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posted January 12, 2014 06:39 PM
Last stanza...
So, knowing not all brass is created equal, is part of the whole deal. If brass I know to be strong is puking primers after half a dozen loads, I back off. If garden variety WW brass is puking primers at six or seven, I might choose to live with it and just know the brass isn't going to last any longer than that.
- DAA
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"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
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TOM64
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posted January 12, 2014 07:18 PM
Geordie, I can't recall the circumstances. The guy shoots probably 500 rounds every Saturday morning and a bunch of matches. We got to discussing it when I was working up some 22-250ai loads in the heat.
I'll try and call him tomorrow to find out the particulars.
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Prune Picker
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posted January 12, 2014 08:21 PM
Another thing Bear, Since you're necking down have you checked for a tight neck, or non uniform brass (ie: Thicker on one side)? You're load might be completely safe with a tight neck spiking the pressures. In a custom chamber (non BR) I usually don't worry about a .0115 thick wall as long as it's uniform but if it's a tight neck maybe .0100 is needed. I'm just using these numbers for reference, if that helps.
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mike
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Leonard
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posted January 12, 2014 10:26 PM
Yes BH. My daylight gun right now is a McMillan westerner, 700 action with a Hart barrel chambered in 22-243Middlested. You might as well call it a 22/243 for reference, but it is slightly more capacity. And I mean "slightly" just involving the shoulder angle.
But as an example talking about the 22-250Ackley which is a smaller case based on the 250 Savage holds 4-5 grains less powder.
This 22/243 Middlested does 3810fps with a 62 grain Berger/26" barrel
The 22-250Ackley does 3925fps with a 65 grain Starke/28.5" barrel...with 4 grains less powder.
But, the 22-250Ackley is an 18 pound truck gun for night hunting.
I think I have a pic somewhere?
and this is the 22-243M
Good hunting. El Bee
[ January 12, 2014, 11:09 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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the bearhunter
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posted January 13, 2014 05:03 AM
prunep. both mine and Dicks rifle are .201 chamber. i've checked quite a few loaded rounds and they mic at .197.
tonight, i'll check every one that i have loaded and see if there are any that are more.
good info guys, thanks.
and LB. that ackley is a screamer. ![[Smile]](smile.gif) i like screamers
off topic but...
i see charts that show speeds,drift,drop ect. all the time. they usually seem to be quite close but every once in a while, a suprise comes along.
my new 17-204 is set up to shoot 25 Berger Match bullets. when i got it, i went to the range and did the 100 yard thing. shot real well.
i was planning on taking it out soon after to check 200-300-400 yards.never got around to that as i was nailing coyotes/fox out too 300 with boring regularity.
anyway, yesterday was a great day here (40) degrees above ![[Eek!]](eek.gif) . i went out to just see what kind of drops i was getting.
results were: 7/8 high at 100, 1 7/8 high at 200 and 3/8 low at 300. talk about a lazer beam
Dave A, how does your Pred compare with these??.
[ January 13, 2014, 05:05 AM: Message edited by: the bearhunter ]
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DAA
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posted January 13, 2014 06:08 AM
My .17P is zeroed just a hair over 1.5" high at 100, is dead on at 300 and about 6" low at 400.
The 6/284 I've been using this season and last is a little bit flatter. Hits a heckuva lot harder.
I've got a .20 Dasher with a long barrel (forget whether it's 28" or 30") that I only use on 'chucks, launches 39BK's in the neighborhood of 4400. That thing is FLAT! I bought the barrel slightly used from a buddy, then had to fit it one of my actions. He gave me a box of loaded rounds with the barrel. His loads were clocking 39Bk's at 4650!! Some sticky bolt lift sunsabitches though. Had to back off from his loads. But I did shoot a few dozen of them at 'chucks first and it was just amazing how flat that rifle was. Still is, I guess.
- DAA
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TRnCO
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posted January 13, 2014 06:49 AM
quote:
the last batch of winchester .204 brass i got (200), some were VERY loose from the first loading.
I had a bag of 100 that was the same way. Literally questioned if the first primer I seated in some of the brass was good enough to fire. I've gone through a lot of WW brass for my .204's and now the .17/204, and this was the first bag that I've had an issue with. Guess maybe I should've sent some in like you did.
I got a guy giving me his Hornady .204 once fired brass. So far it's been better in all regards to my new WW brass.
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knockemdown
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posted January 13, 2014 11:29 AM
DaveČ, for reference, my .17P is zeroed @ 250yds.
That translates to a touch over 1" high at both 100 & 200yds, and roughly 2.5" low @ 300...
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the bearhunter
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posted January 13, 2014 04:12 PM
good to know. i thought my 17-204 was a freak.
sure is nice to hold on fur too 400 ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
the .20 Dasher. what case is that built off of??
if someone would come out with a good fur friendly bullet in a .20, i'd be all over it!.
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TOM64
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posted January 13, 2014 04:51 PM
I spoke with Kelly to day and he loaded universal clays in a 40 S&W in 80-90 degree temps and all was good. Went out in the winter and it was too hot.
He uses UC in his 9mm with no problems. Just a thought.
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the bearhunter
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posted January 13, 2014 05:10 PM
Tom. that just seems strange (opposite) from what i've read about temps/pressure.
TR. when (if) i get a responce from Win, i'll let you know what they say.
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TOM64
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posted January 13, 2014 08:13 PM
Ya Bear, it's totally backwards but they were hot enough for him to pull bullets.
Not saying it's what's going on here it just popped into my mind so I brought it up.
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Prune Picker
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posted January 14, 2014 11:08 PM
Bear, thanks for the info on the neck size of your 17-204. I launched a search for some loaded rounds & fired brass of my long gone 17 Rem. I measured .1945 on a loaded 19gr Berger(?) rnd & .194 on a loaded 25gr Hornady . I only found 1 fired round & neck size is .197 (not sure which bullet was fired tho). The only reason I bring this up is, that 17 rem was the first custom chambered rifle that required neck turned brass. It was a bitch from day one of ownership! but it taught me about the dreaded (carbon) donut from a dirty/fouled barrel with erratic pressure spikes. Is it possible that fouling could be present in one or both of the rifles you are loading for? Sorry for being so nosey but your problem has spiked my interest. Thank You,
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