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Author
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Topic: Reloading blunder
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furhvstr
Knows what it's all about
Member # 1389
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posted September 10, 2009 09:10 PM
A couple of months ago I got all energetic and prepared a bunch of brass for the fall and have been waiting on powder to finish up.
Pulled the stuff out today and this is what I found. All the 223 that is corroded has been primed and the rest not. The stuff that was wrapped with the blue towels is fine along with the block of 25-06 Ak. that was uncovered.
Must have been from the powder stored in the cabinet????
Because the 223 is primed and the rest is not???
All cartridges went through identical prep including polishing in the tumbler.
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted September 10, 2009 09:37 PM
Maybe there was some sort of fabric softener in the towel?
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
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DAA
Utah/Promoted WESTERN REGIONAL Hunt Director
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posted September 11, 2009 04:08 AM
Beats me? Leonard's guess is better than anything I can come up with.
It's not anything to do with being primed vs. unprimed though.
- DAA
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"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
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skoal
Knows what it's all about
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posted September 11, 2009 07:50 AM
Is that reloading area near a laundry room?
Mine is and there can be alot of moisture in the air. Living in Az. its not an issue,but its possible the blue garge rags do a better job of keeping out the h2o in the air.
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RagnCajn
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posted September 11, 2009 08:19 AM
What brand is the tarnished stuff and is it same lot?
A long shot but maybe something in the material composition.
Just grasping.
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted September 11, 2009 01:35 PM
My compliments on the well organized shelves, BTW.
I didn't see any Sweet'S 7.62, but, I can tell you, having worked around ammonia refrigeration equipment once or twice, that it is extremely corrosive to copper and brass.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
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furhvstr
Knows what it's all about
Member # 1389
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posted September 11, 2009 04:42 PM
Yes and what's in gun powder? Ammonia correct?
Notice the labels on the powder are turning yellow.
Any part of the brass exposed directly to the air in that cabinet has turned. In fact when you lift one of those 223 brass out of the block it is not nearly as discolored down low as the exposed upper section.
It is definately not mold. Oxidation is what I would call it. It looks just like when you find a shell out in the woods someone dropped ten years previous only this happened in a couple months.
I keep brass and ammo lying around on that bench year round and have never had a problem so I would exclude humidity.
The laundry room is inside the house.
The jug on the right is from the lower cabinet and the one on the left is from the suspect cabinet.
The oxidation polishes right off with some brasso. I just don't have anything to look inside with.
The IMR cans are beginning to rust.
[ September 12, 2009, 04:35 AM: Message edited by: furhvstr ]
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Ridge Runner
Being a very careful person, I have always bagged my own groceries
Member # 3477
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posted September 11, 2009 04:48 PM
ammonia? gimme a break, its nitrocellulose.
primed cases were LUBED, resized and primed. the lube wasn't cleaned off in the tumbler.
Of course bare metal of a can that was heated to solder/weld is gonna rust after exposed to air, its a normal process called oxidation.
RR
[ September 11, 2009, 04:53 PM: Message edited by: Ridge Runner ]
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Born To Hunt, Forced To Work
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Dan Carey
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posted September 11, 2009 04:59 PM
I think its a chemical reaction caused by the adhesive used to make the wood cabinet parts, press board, particle board, etc. The stuff comes from any part that is not fully covered with paint or other finish, like the hinge pockets. Only a controlled test will tell.
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Leonard
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posted September 11, 2009 09:22 PM
I don't recall the exact composition of smokeless powder, but the smell of it is a solvent/ether type of smell, unless it has degraded and then it has as acidic type of odor, but that takes years to decompose, from what I understand?
I keep everything in a locked room, primed and unprimed brass in loading blocks and plastic boxes and more powder than what I see in your photos, above. But, I never leave them uncapped, aware that the vapors can escape although I never considered those vapors to be harmful except to breathing and affecting the chemical composition of the powder, itself. I don't know, but I don't believe single base smokeless gunpowder has ammnonia in it? Another thing that corrodes brass is mercury and flux vapors used in soldering. The oxidation on the IMR cans could be caused by the same substance that attacked the cases.
But, Mercer. Are you telling us that all this brass was confined in that cabinet, some wrapped in rags and some not? That what we can see in the photo is all you had in there, books, powder, die boxes, rags and cartridge brass? Nothing else?
quote:
The jug on the right is from the lower cabinet and the one on the right is from the suspect cabinet.
So, this is another variable, two different cabinets?
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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furhvstr
Knows what it's all about
Member # 1389
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posted September 12, 2009 04:49 AM
Yes, I geuss I didn't make that too clear originally. I stored the brass in the cabinet along with everyting you see in the cabinet and nothing else. What I can't figure out is that some of the 223 was wrapped in a towel and some was in blocks and it all oxidized. This might indicate something being different before the stuff went into the cabinet but that would mean a mistake on my part in the prep stage on two loads of brass because I only run 100-150 rds at a time through my tumblers (cleaning tumbler and polishing) and there are 300 223's.
I thought there was ammonia in powder but there's not. There are oxidizers and acids though.
All my powder in the other cabinets is fine but the stuff in this cabinet the labels are all turing yellow. The other cabinets are plain wood.
[ September 12, 2009, 04:59 AM: Message edited by: furhvstr ]
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Tim Behle
Administrator MacNeal Sector
Member # 209
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posted September 12, 2009 07:15 AM
Are you sure that there wasn't something on the towel? If it was in the same cabinet that turned everything blue, maybe someone had used the towel to clean up something when you weren't looking.
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Ridge Runner
Being a very careful person, I have always bagged my own groceries
Member # 3477
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posted September 12, 2009 07:50 AM
cleaning and polishing in separate tumblers? what ya using for media in each?
RR
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furhvstr
Knows what it's all about
Member # 1389
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posted September 12, 2009 10:30 AM
Tumbler #1, Untreated corn cob in the cleaning tumbler with a cap full of white gas in each load.
Tumbler #2, Untreated corn cob with liquid brass polish added in each load for polishing.
Same sytem for twenty years or so and never any problems.
Has to have something to do with the powder stored in the cabinet.
Set up a test in the cabinet with several pieces of brass to try and figure it out.
Will see in a few weeks.
[ September 12, 2009, 10:33 AM: Message edited by: furhvstr ]
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted September 12, 2009 11:22 AM
I really don't understand the reasons for a two part cleaning and polishing? I used crushed walnut once, and added some polish once, in a span of more than forty years, but my brass never gets dirty enough to use anything more than corn cob and I just vari the amount of time from overnight to three days, or so?
But anyway, the media seems unlikely (to me) no matter the brand?
Picking your brain a little more, occupation wise, are you farming? Fertilizer is highly corrosive. We have all heard that ammonium nitrate is potential bomb material.
Are you a welder? Seems like I remember you saying that you make your own cages? Galvaneal and galvanize when welded, besides being difficult to weld, produces fumes. Those fumes are toxic and corrosive.
I can't get it out of my head, that the cases look exactly like ammonia vapor contamination. Ammonia vapor, in exactly the right concentration 30%, something like that? is explosive. WD40 can eat some metals, and it's never to be used around primers because it will make the mixture inert......
That's it, I'm out of ideas?
Good hunting. LB
[ September 12, 2009, 11:27 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
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DAA
Utah/Promoted WESTERN REGIONAL Hunt Director
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posted September 12, 2009 01:02 PM
quote:
Has to have something to do with the powder stored in the cabinet.
No, I really don't think it does. Not that I do know what it is, but I'm certain it has absolutely nothing to do with either the cases being primed, or there being powder in the same cabinet.
quote:
Tumbler #2, Untreated corn cob with liquid brass polish added in each load for polishing.
That liquid brass polish, what are the ingredients? The stuff I've got, has phosphoric acid in it... That stuff I have, if I don't rinse it all off, will do exactly what you've got there.
- DAA
Edited to correct the ingredient - not amonia, phosphoric acid. Had amonia on the brain I guess...
[ September 12, 2009, 01:04 PM: Message edited by: DAA ]
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"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
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Az-Hunter
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posted September 12, 2009 04:10 PM
Just a thought, but Im trying to use logic, which of course my wife would say is a futile exercise:)
If only the brass that was primed, corroded, maybe it was something on your hands, that over time, reacted with the case lube? Unless you handled all the brass at the same time when storing.
I only handle and prime what Im going to load for the evening, and when finished loading, I use a cotton cloth and twist each round between my fingers and the cloth to remove any residule lube....Ive never had a loaded round do that, but have seen some exhibit the same pattern of corrosion....odd indeed.
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TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Field Marshall, Southern Minneesota Sector
Member # 794
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posted September 12, 2009 04:30 PM
Just a guess but don't books ommit some type of acid? Has the brass been fired in a AR? Maybe forgot to clean some or all and they contammenated the others.. When i had my AR i noticed the brass had some of a powder residue on them and i had stored them in a zip-lock bag and after a year looked like the brass in the pic., also by handleing the brass with youre hands will leave a chemical on it to cause it to do the same in pic..I had a new box of 17 rem loads that i test fired dureing the summer and when done just put them back in the box with the rest of the ammo that was'nt fired and the sweat from my hands caused a simular problem and it also contamenated the unfired cases..
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furhvstr
Knows what it's all about
Member # 1389
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posted September 13, 2009 12:55 PM
So TWO days ago I set some fresh cases in my problem cabinet.
First view is a wide shot showing both cabinets.
The cabinet on the left is where I store much of my loaded ammo. The one on the right is where I am having trouble.
This is a pic of the left cabinet. The brass upper right is the identical to the brass I put in the right cabinet and was set out at the same time. The fireball cases are new never fired. The 6 BR (lower right) was loaded 9 years ago and has been in that cabinet for four years.
This is what the brass looks like after just two days.
There is definately a light-medium chemical odor when you first open the cabinet.
I added the three brass on the right just for contrast for the picture.
[ September 13, 2009, 01:36 PM: Message edited by: furhvstr ]
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Ridge Runner
Being a very careful person, I have always bagged my own groceries
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posted September 13, 2009 02:38 PM
whats the stain under and around the can of 4198?
RR
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furhvstr
Knows what it's all about
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posted September 13, 2009 03:43 PM
Rust from the cans as noted earlier in the post.
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Ridge Runner
Being a very careful person, I have always bagged my own groceries
Member # 3477
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posted September 13, 2009 04:36 PM
doesn't make sense, it has to be something in the cabinet, I'd remove something every 2 days and see what stops corroding the brass. if you've got an acidic chemical smell it could be bad powder. with that much rust something is going on, I've got cans out in a room in my garage that I've had 20 years and they're not rusted that bad.
RR
[ September 13, 2009, 05:08 PM: Message edited by: Ridge Runner ]
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sparkyibewlocal440
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posted September 13, 2009 04:58 PM
A light medium chemical odor. Sounds like the smell of gun powder to me. Powder kept cool,dry,out of sun and capped is suppose to last indefinitely. Powder gone bad has a rotten smell to it. Take the powder out of the cabinet, wipe it out real good with a cleaner and try setting some brass in there again and see what happens. I'd do a "smell test" of your powders too, starting with that can that's rusting. Give Hodgdon a call and see what they say.
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Locohead
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posted September 13, 2009 10:28 PM
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Leonard
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posted September 13, 2009 10:57 PM
I thought it unlikely that the powder could be responsible, BUT. Assuming there is nothing but dies in those die boxes, unlikely or not, the powder seems suspect and the first ones to look at would be the IMR cans, especially the one showing rust.
I say that because the plastic bottles are practically inert, except for the caps and they are in an upright position so it would be hard to contaminate them. I think the sniff test should tell you something. Then look at it.
Bad powder don't look right. I have never seen bad powder, other than black and white pictures in loading manuals. But you know what good powder looks like, so take it from there.
I'd say the chances are good that you bought bad powder, to begin with, because as Gary said, this stuff has an almost indefinite shelf life, numbering in decades. You know, surplus Bc2, 4831 etc. from WWII, I used a lot of it from Hodgdons at least into the 80's. If that's the problem, you are one unlucky dude!
Good hunting. LB
[ September 13, 2009, 10:58 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
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