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Author
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Topic: Took Jim's CS-24 out Saturday
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TRnCO
FUTURE HALL OF FAMER
Member # 690
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posted December 25, 2014 07:16 AM
not always. Sometimes they act like a cannon went off, and sometimes not. It only takes an extra moment to hit a button to make the call start making sound again, but that moment could be used in acquiring the next target in the scope, instead....so there is merit to foxbang, but I still say it's not a must have.
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Is it hunting season yet? I hate summer!
Posts: 996 | From: Elizabeth, CO | Registered: Aug 2005
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted December 25, 2014 09:37 AM
...and THAT, friends, is exactly why I use the AR platform.
Merry Christmas
Good hunting. El Bee
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31462 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Dave Allen
Hi, I'm SUPER DAVE, IN CHARGE OF Q STUFF (and Goat Leader) "I'm really not trying to be a dick".
Member # 3102
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posted December 25, 2014 12:01 PM
^^ Right... ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
Posts: 1986 | From: Jordan Valley Oregon | Registered: Aug 2008
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sparkyibewlocal440
Knows what it's all about
Member # 397
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posted December 25, 2014 12:57 PM
Fox Bang or no Fox Bang, lets put this into perspective. Do you want to put the odds in your favor for more kills? As non-professionals,are we casual hunters who only kill a dozen animals a season or someone who kills 100-200 per, while holding down a full time job? (I would be the later). Do you simply shrug off a Coyote that gets away from your efforts or do you "see red" that you didn't kill it? For me I want a Coyote that is standing still and not running for a clean DRT kill. It lessons the chance of wounding a runner and it getting away to die later, unacceptable.
When I call in double,(in open country)I expect to kill both of them, each and every time. When multiples of 3,4 plus come to the call (all at the same time) I expect to kill at least two and anymore is a bonus, otherwise I suck as a Coyote hunter. No machine guns here, bolt gun only.
I've only seen a depressed rifle on u-tube, and they don't appear to be 100% quiet to me? It's been my experience that the slightest noise will spook them. Like the man said, "sometimes they run like a cannon went off"
So here is a typical scenario:
I'm in open country and I'm set up for "run out".
A pair comes in and depending on the situation, the first one that comes to a stop dies. The second one runs off, my preset ki yi's on Fox Bang kicks in, all the while I'm focused on the running animal. I'm pivoting the rifle, shooting stix and myself for when that animal comes to a stop I'll be ready to shoot. As it gradually slows down, I anticipate where it will stop to be ready for the shot, it is only going to stand there for a few seconds. If I'm using only a hand call for the stand, and I get a double, I'll do ki yi's on my Red Desert Howler that's always on my lanyard(still awkward). Taking your eye "off the ball" to fumble around with your remote to select a sound and for the sound to initiate is time wasted when seconds count, that animal is covering ground in a hurry and you are also loosing sight of your animal, time will be lost getting a visual again, all the while that animal is putting distance between it and the end of your barrel. On average if you do it right, they'll stop around 250-300 yards,It may look like 400 though. Is your caliber up to the task, that's why I shoot a "point and shoot" rifle, .223 Remington need not apply.
All bets are off when that second Coyote takes off full blast, touching it's belly on the ground with every stride, it's not going to stop for 500 yards, he gets a free pass.
Again, if you intend to kill every Coyote that responds to your calling efforts, you need the odds in your favor. Your stand selection, your equipment, your management of multiple Coyotes responding to your call,your shooting ability, your marksmanship, etc etc.
A guy needs to shoot at paper at 300 yards, he may find he has no fucking business shooting that far at an animal, in order to make a clean humane kill.....
I'll be damned LB, you succumbed to the "black machine gun" WTF? What's the world coming too???
Do you pick up your brass?
Cheers
Posts: 170 | From: So. Cal | Registered: Sep 2004
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Kokopelli
SENIOR DISCOUNT & Dispenser of Sage Advice
Member # 633
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posted December 25, 2014 01:10 PM
We have photos of El Bee holding a Black Rifle from two different Camp-Outs. Ten more and we can put out a 12 month calendar.
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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And lo, the Light of the Trump shown upon the Darkness and the Darkness could not comprehend it.
Posts: 7580 | From: Under a wandering star | Registered: Apr 2005
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sparkyibewlocal440
Knows what it's all about
Member # 397
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posted December 25, 2014 01:19 PM
Good stuff KoKo
I may have been that one camp out where he was set up for that photo, good stuff.
Why you pissing on Mecca? That's not too far from me. Mecca does smell like piss though, I'll give you that.
Posts: 170 | From: So. Cal | Registered: Sep 2004
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sparkyibewlocal440
Knows what it's all about
Member # 397
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posted December 25, 2014 01:24 PM
LB, to add insult to injury, you didn't set up that "machine gun" in .223 did you???
Posts: 170 | From: So. Cal | Registered: Sep 2004
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted December 25, 2014 01:43 PM
Apparently, sarcasm is lost on some in the Peanut Gallery?
I have not hunted with an AR in probably 15-20 years? I had problems dealing with the friggin' handle. If sighted in for 50 yards, 100 was a problem. If sighted in for 100, 50 was a problem. So, I sawed of the handle and built mounts for a scope closer inline with the bore. But, I never loved the problem of coyotes fussing after they were hit with a 223, so I completely lost interest in the AR as a coyote stand solution. And, that's where it sits, back of the safe, waiting for the civil unrest that is bound to occur.
Now, if sparky had been paying attention, he would know that my attitude and his is almost exactly the same. EXCEPT, I have mellowed slightly. It's not as important, since I don't screw around with contests as I once did. Yes, I still want every coyote dead, and yes, it bothers me if the second or third gets away, but it's not the end of the world, as it once was.
Now, getting back to the foxbang and nobrainer, etc. I hunt places in Arizona where fox bang would be marginally effective because the cover is such that (literally) moving five feet one way or the other means you don't see them any more. Then, it becomes a case of windows of opportunity, anticipating where they are going and maybe waiting for them to get to the next opening in the brush. This is where I find the foxbang to be of marginal value.
Now, I'm heading up north tomorrow, where they have basically nowhere to hide and I will be employing the foxbang, for sure. Still; wish me luck. I hope they are running and I hope the weather cooperates?
Good hunting. El Bee
[ December 25, 2014, 01:45 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31462 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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sparkyibewlocal440
Knows what it's all about
Member # 397
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posted December 25, 2014 03:05 PM
Good luck up North LB, Nevada I suspect? I made a pass from one side of the state to the other for eight days and did very poorly this past October.
Seems to be the "norm" lately with others I've talked to.
I made mention of the .233 Rem only for it's trajectory, not for any other reason.
Posts: 170 | From: So. Cal | Registered: Sep 2004
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Fur_n_Dirt
So. Ariz. Zone Tech. Expert
Member # 4467
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posted December 25, 2014 03:08 PM
LB, I hunted lovelock area before wind/rain came in yesterday.. It was a nice change from the thick AZ desert..
We had one come in at 100 yards sneaking in around thick sage, but my brotherlaw (who is not a hunter) must of screwed it up! Just saw flashes.. Lol
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--- It's all simple if you know what you are doing ---
Posts: 437 | From: Tucson | Registered: Sep 2013
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted December 25, 2014 05:17 PM
Great story, Tim.
As for LB needing the new CS24C, TR and I both share a secret and LB might be wanting to not pull that trigger too quick. I have a buddy that thrills in buying all the newest stuff and he is stymied by the fact that his new gizmo just can't keep up with my ol' beater Minaska caller. Of course, TR and I have access to a whole new generation of sounds that is, for lack of a better term, "da shit". The few people that have hunted with me over these sounds always end the first stand hearing them saying the same thing, "WoW!!!"
Be available to the rest of the world in late summer, 2015, after we get done playing with them first. A little hint of their effectiveness... they won the World last weekend, decisively.
Again, good story Tim. Sounds like you had fun.
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5438 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
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32below
Knows what it's all about
Member # 2075
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posted December 25, 2014 06:05 PM
Cool beans Tim. I've got a CS24 and like the beasty although I don't use near all the features. It called a cat this morning so I have no complaints.
Posts: 100 | From: SW Kansas | Registered: Nov 2007
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Lone Howl
Free Trial Platinum Member & part-time language police
Member # 29
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posted December 25, 2014 08:56 PM
How come I don't have any secret sounds? I would be the envy of all my friends!
Mark
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When tyranny becomes law, rebellion becomes duty.
Posts: 2083 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2003
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TOM64
Knows what it's all about
Member # 561
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posted December 26, 2014 05:54 PM
Now if you just had a player for those new sounds...
Just kidding, sort of. If I had to go back to Minaska I'd quit but that's another story. Besides I killed a bobcat this morning with an old garbled Johnny Stewart sound. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Posts: 2283 | From: okieland | Registered: Feb 2005
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Fur_n_Dirt
So. Ariz. Zone Tech. Expert
Member # 4467
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posted December 27, 2014 09:14 AM
Are these cutting edge sounds based on bird and rabbit; or vocals?
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--- It's all simple if you know what you are doing ---
Posts: 437 | From: Tucson | Registered: Sep 2013
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TRnCO
FUTURE HALL OF FAMER
Member # 690
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posted December 27, 2014 10:54 AM
mostly vocals, although he's got some darn good prey distress sounds as well, but the vocals are unique from what is available now and they are working really good. Although it's been a whole new learning curve with the new sounds, we are learning and learning quickly and for me, prey distress has been taking a back seat a lot this winter and I suspect as season progresses, some of the vocals are going to work even better.
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Is it hunting season yet? I hate summer!
Posts: 996 | From: Elizabeth, CO | Registered: Aug 2005
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted December 28, 2014 05:51 PM
Touche, Tom. I don't need a new caller. The one I have is working splendidly and pretty much dragging all the newfangled machinery through the dirt. One of my gunners has one of the newest and most state of the art callers on the market and he refers to my 6 year old U/O as "that fancy caller". Says that 24-bit is much better than 16-bit, all while I'm kicking my dead coyotes with my boot as we talk about callers. Told him that in my never to be humble opinion, e-callers are a lot like peckers. Doesn't matter how impressive the one you have is if you don't know how to apply it to the task at hand properly.
Now, FP is a great caller. I'm not really beholding to any one manufacturer of ecalls these days and will say that yes, my old caller is outdated and probably on the verge of going up in value as a collectible as we "speak". But, just how much can technology make up for lousy calling skills?
As far as Fox Bang goes, it's a dandy idea but I personally do not feel the need. And here is why.
Last weekend, Kevin and I took out a coyote virgin for his second hunt with us - no kills. Former Army, veteran, knows his way around a deer rifle. Shooting a .243.
I set the U/O up and got back to my hide. Started pushing buttons and nada. Went back to the caller, knowing I'd turned it on and yup, it was on, and hissing softly. Battery was about dead, and the replacement battery was a quarter-mile away back in the truck. Wiggled a hand call - one I made at Kevin - and he nodded his head in understanding. Sat back down and start screaming ol' school. I didn't see the coyote come in, but the virginal Jerry was forced to take the shot at 225+- yards when the coyote sat down to just sit down. Coyote goes down. Grab my AP-6 and go into very out-of-practice puppy ki-yi's as a second coyote we were not aware of burst from a drainage at 200. My distress cries turned it around and it bee lined back to the first coyote where Kevin smoked it through and through.
In that instance, the coyote distress sound did, in fact, work. But, that's the exception anymore, rather than the rule. I've gone to ki-yi's after hits and seen coyotes nearby light out for the next county.
My point is simple: I think the Fox Bang is a great theory, but the marketing and the dialogue makes it sound like it will turn runners back every time, and it doesn't. Much less often than that, in fact.
Also, there are reasons for not using that sort of tactic. I prefer to maintain control over whether or not a ki-yi goes by trying to read the runner's attitude on the fly. Relying on FB takes that ability away from you and just makes the "hunter" even more reliant upon a piece of machinery.
There remains a special sort of satisfaction to be derived from calling a coyote with a hunk of wood and an aluminum reed that an ecaller will never replace.
On another matter, these sounds Rick is getting are truly unique and there has been much learned. One myth that was quickly dispelled for me was that deeper howls come from older coyotes. I've seen video footage of a 3 month old coyote that sounds as baritone as any ten year old alpha dog. Little bitty bastard sounding like Barry White, LOL. Never assume that a low-pitched reply is from the dog in charge. May very well be a nobody in the heirarchy just running its mouth off.
Watching and seeing the social dynamic between the various litters and between litters has been very cool as well. Much to be learned from observing those guys and it is becoming clearer and clearer how and why howling works.
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5438 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
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TOM64
Knows what it's all about
Member # 561
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posted December 28, 2014 07:06 PM
Lance I agree no caller or foxgadget will take the place of knowing how to set up and why to choose a sound.
I just had a bad deal with them and won't forget it. Everyone makes a bad product now and then but it's how you handle things that make you or break you. I wouldn't piss on them if they were on fire.
But we don't need another ecaller war so back to foxbang, I don't have it and don't need it, nor do I want to plan out my stands and have a caller programmed to the way I hope it goes.
Just give me a good sounding speaker with a remote that works and good sounds to play. I have that in the CS-24 but I wish I had the new remote so I could see the dang screen. I hate the scrolling knob too. But all in all it works well enough with my presets memorized. I can get creative after the sun comes up and I can see the screen.
I'm excited to see new barriers broke with vocals, so far I've yet to see anyone's beat Cal's but e-mail em to me and I'll try em...
Posts: 2283 | From: okieland | Registered: Feb 2005
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DanS
Scorched Earth (AZ Sector)
Member # 316
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posted January 01, 2015 07:13 AM
quote:
Just give me a good sounding speaker with a remote that works and good sounds to play. I have that in the CS-24 but I wish I had the new remote so I could see the dang screen. I hate the scrolling knob too. But all in all it works well enough with my presets memorized. I can get creative after the sun comes up and I can see the screen.
I'm excited to see new barriers broke with vocals, so far I've yet to see anyone's beat Cal's but e-mail em to me and I'll try em... [Wink]
I have the old CS24 also. I have pretty much the same gripes. I also have accidentally touched a preset and "bam", the sound changes when I didn't want it too.
I am working on understanding all this "vocalation" stuff. Sometimes I honestly feel like I am howling in English and they no comprendo, only habla espanole.
I am even thinking of getting a used WT, basically for a set of sounds no one around here has.
Now there is a newer, bestest and greatest sound list that is almost on the market. Heaven help me.
Leonard, you know that calender thing with you on it just might be a big hit with the ladies. The lady mechanics and construction workers can pin you up next to our "Snap on" girl calenders.
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futuaris nisi irrisus ridebis
Saepe Expertus, Semper Fidelis, Fratres Aeterni:
Often Tested, Always Faithful. Brothers Forever!
Posts: 1465 | From: flyover country | Registered: Feb 2004
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted January 01, 2015 08:41 AM
quote:
Leonard, you know that calendar thing with you on it just might be a big hit with the ladies. The lady mechanics and construction workers can pin you up next to our "Snap on" girl calenders. [Smile]
<sigh> I get that enough, thank you! No, really. At my age, that old saying is starting to make a lot of sense: "I'm not as good as I once was, but I am good once, as I ever was."
LB on a Macho Calandar wouldn't sell, just as a joke, maybe? But Hey! We won't know 'til we try it!
Good hunting. El Bee
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31462 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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UTcaller
NEVADA NIGHT FIGHTER
Member # 8
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posted January 01, 2015 11:13 AM
Dan, That is exactly what I did this year. I have been using the cs-24 for the last few years and have loved it. Have called alot of coyote with that sucker for sure. But with the flood of foxpro callers that have hit the field the last couple years I thought I needed a little change so I bought a Mighty Atom MA-21. Great caller with great sounds. Not better sounds than foxpro but different. So I let my brother take my cs-24. And I have seen a little increase in success in the same areas my brother uses the foxpro and i use the WT. I have even seen it when we are hunting together we will take both callers and just switch off on every other stands. It really doesn't seem to matter which caller we use in some areas of Nevada they come in with either one but here in Utah the WT seems to call more coyotes. Only thing i can figure is that have they haven't heard the specific sound as much. Now if you are loading your own sounds on your foxpro that don't get heard alot I bet that would make all the difference in the world. In fact i do have a couple sounds loaded on my foxpro that i know nobody else has and they are the go to sounds when i'm calling in Nevada.
Good Hunting Chad
Posts: 1612 | From: Utah | Registered: Jan 2003
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DanS
Scorched Earth (AZ Sector)
Member # 316
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posted January 01, 2015 12:55 PM
naw, I don't have any secret sounds. I do have a few Johnny Stewart sounds on it though
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futuaris nisi irrisus ridebis
Saepe Expertus, Semper Fidelis, Fratres Aeterni:
Often Tested, Always Faithful. Brothers Forever!
Posts: 1465 | From: flyover country | Registered: Feb 2004
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted January 01, 2015 02:23 PM
Lance, old buddy, don't take this the wrong way, but.
This focus on kick ass sounds that coyotes haven't heard before is getting on my nerves. Everybody has "go to" sounds they have confidence in.
The idea that coyotes have encyclopedic knowledge of several hundred prey sounds just strikes me as ridiculous. So, now we can't call a coyote unless it is with a virgin sound that has not been played within this or that county.
I won't say I agree with the concept, entirely, but when JohnHenry and Vic used to say all they use is good old reliable 101C, I don't actually doubt it very much. Of course, theoretically, means they never miss and every coyote that hears the sound will not live to tell about it.
And, this also means it's not true. Some you never see will escape and then we have Vic's 85% honey holes, where he goes to the well from one month to the next. The prevailing wisdom says he's going to be very disappointed, unless he knows somebody with "SECRET SOUNDS".
I'm pretty sure you can call the same coyote you missed, on a different day with the same sound, but, as the man said: "sometimes this shit don't work."
All of the above is intended to express my opinion that:
TIME OF DAY IS IMPORTANT
WIND, AND OTHER PHYSICAL FACTORS ARE IMPORTANT
SETUP IS CRITICAL TO SUCCESS
THE TOOLS YOU USE ARE ALSO IMPORTANT -
CAMO, WEAPON, CARTRIDGE, BULLET, ECALLER BRAND, VOLUME, LENGTH OF STAND, EXPERIENCE,
AND, (clears throat) FOXBANG !
and, a bunch of stuff that all factors into success or failure.
Meaning; a secret sound might be nice, but let's be realistic.
Good hunting. El Bee
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31462 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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UTcaller
NEVADA NIGHT FIGHTER
Member # 8
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posted January 01, 2015 02:47 PM
I don't believe in secret sounds. I guess i see it as less used sounds. When a coyote hears lightning jack on the foxpro 1000 times and they get shot at time and time again and aren't killed, pretty soon they aren't so hungry for lightning jack anymore.lol
Posts: 1612 | From: Utah | Registered: Jan 2003
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TOM64
Knows what it's all about
Member # 561
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posted January 01, 2015 03:13 PM
Don't know about 101c but 102a kicked tail again this morning just like it did when I pushed play on my first JS cassette caller 20? Years ago.
Now that I think about it, my caller has about 50 sounds that would be new to my areas cause if it ain't one of my presets, I rarely if ever play it.
Posts: 2283 | From: okieland | Registered: Feb 2005
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