|
Author
|
Topic: Gun Talk and the SS
|
Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
|
posted July 17, 2011 12:17 PM
I guess we're not alone. Tom Grisham's Gun Talk radio program today has dedicated some time to the subject of overzealous LEO's. Even had two different LEO's call in and refer to their brethren in the cases they've discussed as "SS" types.
--------------------
I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5440 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
|
posted July 17, 2011 12:32 PM
I would like to draw a distinction between members and Law Enforcement issues, as a whole. Our members are free to voice opinion, for or against, it matters not, to me.
However, I want to express my personal attitude and opinion. My stance is zero tolerance for misbehavior, and L.E. should theoretically be above reproach. In other words, don't do anything that calls their behavior into question and everything's kool.
If it comes down to offing an innocent citizen, versus a police officer; well they volunteered to serve and protect. Just a couple days ago, locally, a collision while responding to a call left an officer dead. I hope this is not due to overzealousness, the cowboy attitude where they crave ACTION.
gh....lb
--------------------
EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32361 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Ken
will be missed
Member # 3065
|
posted July 17, 2011 12:50 PM
The tide is changing toward LEO's conduct and procedures, it has been for years. ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
What part of what you did 10 or 20 years ago is no longer acceptable, do they not understand?
For the simple minds, WOULD you fight the Afghanistan and Iraq conflict like you did in WWII or Korea. How about Vietnam for you younger gentlemen?
Shit if what they did in WWII was cool, why not repeat it again and see what happened in the Gulf War?
TURDS do come in different shape,sizes and color, one should adapt to the situation at hand.
[ July 17, 2011, 12:51 PM: Message edited by: Ken ]
--------------------
I am 5'10",an asshole 220% for sure. Former dirty deed doer for PM. Corrupt too! My name is Festus.
Posts: 281 | From: High Desert | Registered: Aug 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
Ken
will be missed
Member # 3065
|
posted July 17, 2011 12:59 PM
Nick what link did I miss as to what Leonard was meaning? ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
--------------------
I am 5'10",an asshole 220% for sure. Former dirty deed doer for PM. Corrupt too! My name is Festus.
Posts: 281 | From: High Desert | Registered: Aug 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
4949shooter
SECOND PLACE HIGGINS (MAGNUM P.I.) LOOK A LIKE CONTEST
Member # 3530
|
posted July 17, 2011 01:03 PM
Leonard made this statement Ken:
quote:
Just a couple days ago, locally, a collision while responding to a call left an officer dead. I hope this is not due to overzealousness, the cowboy attitude where they crave ACTION
The only CA officer recently killed in the line of duty was the officer mentioned on the two links I provided. He was killed responding to a robbery call. It sounds like he was more the hero, and less the cowboy craving action.
Posts: 2274 | From: New Jersey | Registered: Dec 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
|
posted July 17, 2011 01:09 PM
I don't have a link, nor any particular point, maybe the event was just one of those things? Should cops drive recklessly, responding to a robbery? These guys are trained in
USA scored!
--------------------
EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32361 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
|
posted July 17, 2011 01:11 PM
....driving techniques. There shouldn't be an excuse for what happened. That's all I meant, and I am sorry that it happened, to be clear.
gh....lb
--------------------
EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32361 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
|
posted July 17, 2011 01:52 PM
Two points to offer, but first, sorry to hear about the officer's death.
First, I've driven more than my fair share of miles with lights and sirens on, whether that's in patrol cars, fire trucks, or ambuli. In every instance, and with each of the three departments I worked for, we had driving protocols that emphasized the fact that the lights and sirens were simply to alert others that we were in the area and to yield right of way, and not to grant us the right of way and a free pass to blow through intersections and stop lights. Many a time, I sat stopped at a red light with the yelp on my siren raging because cross traffic didn't know we were there. I hope that wasn't the case with this guy and, admittedly, I haven't had time to pursue the links Leonard provided.
Second, the times have definitely changed. If, for no other reason than the very fact that the public's perception of the government is changing with each day of this recession, joblessness, so on and so forth. Most Americans feel increasingly helpless against a federal government being led by a man many believe to be a socialist and who are barraging us with more and more in their attempts to take away our money, our assets and our rights. With the feds paying less, state, county and local governments are having to step in and stake claims to more of what we have to cover their expenses.
What's my point?
Simply, the public perception of governmental intrusion is growing at an alarming rate and, from where we stand, the government goes about doing this by using laws, enforced by law enforcement officials. If the government wants what you have, and you don't just hand it over, they'll send their people - police, sheriff, whatever - to do the arm twisting on their behalf. Pretty consistent with what the Nazis did in the 20th century, so to most people, the correlation isn't all that far fetched. As as LEO, you may not like where people's minds turn when they feel intruded upon by over reaching authority, but it's the nature of the beast and I think law enforcement would do well to measure their actions carefully against an increasingly riled proletariat. Again, this goes back to most people feeling sincerely that how we enforce the laws is a reflection of societal values, mores and norms, and when law enforcement engages in actions that we, as a society, feel is outside the realm of those acceptances, things will change, be that for good, or for bad.
--------------------
I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5440 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
booger
TOO BIG TO FAIL
Member # 3602
|
posted July 17, 2011 03:15 PM
Lance,
I have no beef with LEO's, but I do see your point.
In Russell County, the undersheriff is, let me say this nicely, a bit over-zealous in his duties. The sheriff even has told me that 'he likes his job just a bit too much'.
He just got back from a 16 week training program at the FBI Academy, and it seems that now Russell County, Kansas needs to be brought into the 21st Century.
He has written a grant to get a surplus assault vehicle from some SWAT team someplace to be housed in a county of 9,000 people---just nuts!! They have formed their own version of a SWAT team and it is ridiculous...guess they are living out their fantasies at the taxpayer's expense.
I could see this guy having no problem going house to house with his 'new vehicle' to disarm the folks...that is pretty scary!
--------------------
If we ever forget we are one Nation Under God, then we will be a nation gone under--Ronald Reagan
Posts: 911 | From: Bob Dole Country | Registered: Apr 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
|
posted July 17, 2011 03:30 PM
Yes, 49. I did make that statement and stand by it. I see no reason , no justification for fatal crashes while responding to a robbery. Is there some sort of flaw in my reasoning?
gh....lb
--------------------
EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32361 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Dave Allen
Hi, I'm SUPER DAVE, IN CHARGE OF Q STUFF (and Goat Leader) "I'm really not trying to be a dick".
Member # 3102
|
posted July 17, 2011 03:55 PM
I do feel bad for young officer Stringer, I really do..
Sounds like reckless driving though..On the part of both officers involved.
(Edit) whats going on @ 2:30 am ? somebody robbing 7-eleven and stealing $200 bucks ?
[ July 17, 2011, 03:57 PM: Message edited by: Dave Allen ]
Posts: 1986 | From: Jordan Valley Oregon | Registered: Aug 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Southern Minneesota Know it all
Member # 794
|
posted July 17, 2011 03:58 PM
My county purchased a used APC about 10 years ago. Not sure what they use it for as most times I see it just sitting behind the county jail...
--------------------
What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
Posts: 5614 | From: S.D. | Registered: Jan 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
4949shooter
SECOND PLACE HIGGINS (MAGNUM P.I.) LOOK A LIKE CONTEST
Member # 3530
|
posted July 17, 2011 04:05 PM
quote:
Yes, 49. I did make that statement and stand by it. I see no reason , no justification for fatal crashes while responding to a robbery. Is there some sort of flaw in my reasoning?
There is no flaw in your reasoning that I can tell Leonard, when you state your case that way. I would agree there is no justification for fatal crashes while responding to a robbery or otherwise. However in your earlier post you mentioned a "cowboy attitude" and craving "ACTION." You are assuming the officer died due to his own recklessness. The man was doing his job, and lossed his life doing so. He isn't the first police officer to die in the line of duty while responding to a hot call, and he won't be the last. Accidents can and do happen while driving under high stress circumstances.
[ July 17, 2011, 04:55 PM: Message edited by: 4949shooter ]
Posts: 2274 | From: New Jersey | Registered: Dec 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
|
posted July 17, 2011 04:35 PM
booger,
Especially ridiculous when you consider that KHP offers the services of their TRAINED assault team to any other agency in the state. Was a guy in Chapman who insisted on wearing khaki ACU's all the time. After the tornado, he strutted around wearing his khakis, tucked into and bloused at his Hi-Tec boots, a vest to carry extra radios and mags and whatever he felt he needed in the event of a sudden outbreak of looting and what not. It was good to see all those people whose lives had been upended have something to laugh at.
Reminds me of the old joke where this guys shed catches on fire. Contained therein is a lot of stuff that's valuable to him. he calls the local volunteer fire department and here they come rounding the bend and down the hill in their only fire truck, sirens a wailing. Gung ho as hell, they drive the truck right up to the fire where they jump out and, more so a matter of self preservation, put everything they have into fighting that fire. Never before had they acted with such courage and shown such willingness to fight a fire. When the fire was out, the farmer goes up to the chief and tells him he's going to give the fire dept a hefty reward for their bravery and for putting the fire out so quickly. The crowd cheers and the farmer's wife asks the chief what he's gonna spend all that money on. Chief says, "Well, first thing I'm gonna do is get new brakes on that gawddamned fire truck!"
Moral to the story: they may buy it, but that don't mean any of them have sense enough to know how to use it.
--------------------
I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5440 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
JD
HONORARY OKIE .... and Tim's at fault!
Member # 768
|
posted July 17, 2011 05:09 PM
quote:
Moral to the story: they may buy it, but that don't mean any of them have sense enough to know how to use it.
My years on the fire dept confirm that satement 100%........people seem to have this unquechable desire to have the biggest and best equip. available......I always contended that we should find sober volunteers with triple digit IQs before we spend hunderds of thousands on equipment.
Of course if you employ the intelligence and common of those people, whether they be FD or LE, you'll soon discover that new equip. wasn't needed at all, or at least very seldom.
--------------------
Jason
--------------------------------------
What do Obama & TA17Rem have in common........both are clueless asshats!!!
Posts: 1456 | From: NE. | Registered: Dec 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
|
posted July 17, 2011 05:17 PM
quote:
However in your earlier post you mentioned a "cowboy attitude" and craving "ACTION."
I stand by that, as well. Nothing new. That's why they work graveyard, it's where all the action is.
gh....lb
--------------------
EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32361 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Okanagan
Budding Spin Doctor
Member # 870
|
posted July 17, 2011 06:05 PM
Gonna make an obvious comment that will be ignored. Leonard said, "I hope this is not due to overzealousness, the cowboy attitude..."
49's comments imply LB asserted that it WAS a cowboy attitude.
Big difference.
Posts: 269 | From: 49th Parrallel | Registered: Jun 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
TOM64
Knows what it's all about
Member # 561
|
posted July 17, 2011 08:00 PM
Quit confusing us with facts Okanagan.
I don't know about anywhere else but here I was told 10 mph over was the limit unless of course in a chase. Even then due to a kid wrecking and killing himself while being chased, chases are kinda frowned upon.
Posts: 2283 | From: okieland | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
|
posted July 17, 2011 08:13 PM
"Of course if you employ the intelligence and common (sense?) of those people, whether they be FD or LE, you'll soon discover that new equip. wasn't needed at all, or at least very seldom."
That's some funny chit right there, JD. LOL It has been my experience, with a few exceptions, that in most non-fulltime departments and reserve units, everyone wants the newest, bestest equipment, but the powers that be won't buy it because no one has the training to use it. At the same time, no one wants to subject themselves to the rigors of undertaking said training because the department lacks the gear necessary to make that learning of any use. A classic catch-22 that boils down to a bunch of guys with too much testosterone and free time wanting to look all cock of the walk as long as they don't have to break a sweat in training or actual application. In my last FD, we convinced and encouraged our members to undergo training to get everyone to a minimum Firefighter II levels, sent the old dogs through Engineer training, and all the higher ups through every level plus Fire Company Officer training. When that was all said and done, the bean counters saw the benefit and built a new station with all new apparatuses. I'm no longer affiliated with that bunch, but much of what we did back then is still the rule and I'd put that bunch of volunteers up against any fulltime crew any day. In fact, career FF's from Wichita were recently in their home town drilling on structure fire suppression and ventilation techniques. Those guys (and gals) can walk the talk and I'm proud of what they've done there.
--------------------
I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5440 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Ken
will be missed
Member # 3065
|
posted July 17, 2011 10:45 PM
Nick, neither link you provided says a whole lot as to what really happened. Sad for this young man indeed. ![[Frown]](frown.gif) Seen that situation many times over the years.
Have been a traffic cop for many years, many questions get raised when two police cars collide at high speed at 2:30am. Someone was wrong both in policy and law when this happens.
Your thoughts?
[ July 17, 2011, 10:46 PM: Message edited by: Ken ]
--------------------
I am 5'10",an asshole 220% for sure. Former dirty deed doer for PM. Corrupt too! My name is Festus.
Posts: 281 | From: High Desert | Registered: Aug 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Ken
will be missed
Member # 3065
|
posted July 18, 2011 08:28 AM
Lance forgot to say good analogy of one's expectations when driving with red lights and siren.
Your right it is not a pass to blow intersections or drive into opposing traffic lanes.
--------------------
I am 5'10",an asshole 220% for sure. Former dirty deed doer for PM. Corrupt too! My name is Festus.
Posts: 281 | From: High Desert | Registered: Aug 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
4949shooter
SECOND PLACE HIGGINS (MAGNUM P.I.) LOOK A LIKE CONTEST
Member # 3530
|
posted July 18, 2011 12:39 PM
quote:
Your thoughts?
Respectfully Ken, my only thoughts are that a young man was responding to a robbery call and lost his life, and that some here are attempting to find fault with it.
[ July 18, 2011, 12:40 PM: Message edited by: 4949shooter ]
Posts: 2274 | From: New Jersey | Registered: Dec 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
4949shooter
SECOND PLACE HIGGINS (MAGNUM P.I.) LOOK A LIKE CONTEST
Member # 3530
|
posted July 18, 2011 12:50 PM
quote:
49's comments imply LB asserted that it WAS a cowboy attitude.
Whether Leonard implied or asserted it, he is finding fault with with the actions of a police officer who lost his life in a motor vehicle crash while responding to a robbery call.
quote:
That's why they work graveyard, it's where all the action is
Now he is asserting that cops work the graveyard shift because "they" crave action. He is completely discounting typical law enforcement issues, such as manpower considerations, rotating shift issues, scheduling issues due to vacation, off time, sick time, etc. Perhaps the officer worked night shift because he had family issues, like child care issues with a wife working full time? Of course these issues are discounted.
This site most definately has a "them vs. us" attitude when it comes to law enforcement.
[ July 18, 2011, 12:54 PM: Message edited by: 4949shooter ]
Posts: 2274 | From: New Jersey | Registered: Dec 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Ken
will be missed
Member # 3065
|
posted July 18, 2011 02:16 PM
quote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Your thoughts?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Respectfully Ken, my only thoughts are that a young man was responding to a robbery call and lost his life, and that some here are attempting to find fault with it.
Even though tragic on it's face, you wish to set aside other issue just because this officer was responding to a robbery call?
What would you say if this young officer had collided with a civilian motorist enroute to the call killing them? It could of happened and has happened MANY times over the years.
This tragic incident is clearly a preventable incident, and unfortunately raises questions.
WE both know that both units were probably hauling ass to the call as cops do. Someone blew an intersection, red light or stop sign and collided. When that happens at high speed someone generally dies.
There is unfortunate fault with this incident. Lack of training, lack of personal control, bad supervision, but preventable.
I am sorry to say there is fault with this situation on the mere fact two police cars collided at 2:30am.
Anyone paying attention to that would ask questions. SO that persons belief is not baseless. And that person asking questions is not wrong or trying to create a problem.
LB is not incorrect in his question. I worked graveyard for 80% of my career. WHY, that is where the action is.
Less BS calls for service, more patrol time to look for TURDS committing crimes, LESS report calls etc.
YES cowboys might work graveyard by choice or by order.
One can drive faster to calls on graveyard versus other shifts. But if you crash because your driving like a fool, then your ASS belongs to the boss.
[ July 18, 2011, 02:21 PM: Message edited by: Ken ]
--------------------
I am 5'10",an asshole 220% for sure. Former dirty deed doer for PM. Corrupt too! My name is Festus.
Posts: 281 | From: High Desert | Registered: Aug 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
Printer-friendly view of this topic
