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Author
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Topic: Gun Talk and the SS
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4949shooter
SECOND PLACE HIGGINS (MAGNUM P.I.) LOOK A LIKE CONTEST
Member # 3530
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posted July 18, 2011 02:46 PM
quote:
I am sorry to say there is fault with this situation on the mere fact two police cars collided at 2:30am
This is correct, Ken. However, you asked me my thoughts and I gave them to you. Here are some more thoughts:
The anti-LE people here will look for fault.
The pro-LE people will see a line of duty death, understand the reasons of how or why this may have happened, and move on.
This, in effect, is the clash we have here at Huntmasters.
[ July 18, 2011, 02:47 PM: Message edited by: 4949shooter ]
Posts: 2274 | From: New Jersey | Registered: Dec 2009
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fgf4
unknown comic
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posted July 18, 2011 03:36 PM
Unfortunately Nick, You are missing the point.
I don't think, at least I would hope, there's not one of us here that doesn't feel remorse for the loss of the patrolman's life. That's just not the way anyone should look at this terrible incidence.
What is being said here is questioning how such an event could occur. The most likely and probable cause is excessive speed, that being a direct connection to the gungho cowboy versus bad guy attitude many officers have. Catching a robbery subject is a big feather in many caps. That in iself will often lead to bigger things. If nothing else, the team elation and pats on the back from fellow officers and the community in general.
This "Hero" mentality by some LEO fuels dangerous situations that should be avoided at all cost. Driving at high speeds on public streets in a 4000lb vehicle is a weapon with a hair trigger and the safety off... not something I want to think about meeting in the middle of an intersection as I'm heading home from work or the grocery store.
The attitude on this board isn't about them versus us, it's about "them" believing they control us and "we" should do exactly as "they" command. Truth is, I think most would agree it should be "Them and Us" against the criminals and bad guys. Unfortunately "WE"(all of us,LEO included)don't get that option.
The officer that lost his life may or may not have been to blame and I know the other officer is going through his own hell regardless... I will say a prayer for all and ask that the rest of you consider doing the same.
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4949shooter
SECOND PLACE HIGGINS (MAGNUM P.I.) LOOK A LIKE CONTEST
Member # 3530
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posted July 18, 2011 03:42 PM
Nikon, you make some very valid points.
And as always, you conduct yourself respectfully.
I won't say I agree 100%, but I do appreciate your candor.
Posts: 2274 | From: New Jersey | Registered: Dec 2009
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted July 18, 2011 04:52 PM
49, nothing I have said should be considered prejudicial, I'm just working with what I have and calling a spade a spade.
On the other hand.
gh....lb
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31462 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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tlbradford
Rimfires are MAGIC on COYOTES! If you do your part
Member # 1232
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posted July 18, 2011 05:12 PM
Tragic accident yes, avoidable maybe, cowboy/hero attitude possibly. I want them to respond as fast as possible. Do I want them to endanger motorist, or take unnecessary risk? No. If it is a home invasion, armed robbery, etc. I want them to haul ass. If it is at my house and I am home, then they will probably be responding to a dead robber, but if I am not at home and my family is hiding in a closet, I want them there quickly. I don't really care what there mental make-up is, as long as they make sound decisions and use caution to avoid making a situation more dangerous.
I have found that most law enforcement (that I know) work swing and graveyard because it works for their family, or they don't have seniority to get a day shift.
I also love our county sheriff. He is conservative, gets inmates out to shovel snow out of the bus stops in the winter, keeps crime low, and probably saves the county money by making sound decisions. The city police are on the other side of the aisle and our pretty poorly ran.
[ July 18, 2011, 07:53 PM: Message edited by: tlbradford ]
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"Dan Carey ain't that special" - LB
Posts: 423 | From: Spokane Valley, WA | Registered: Mar 2007
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted July 18, 2011 05:28 PM
49, your attitude is showing.
I have not said anything much different than what niko said above, and you complimented him and act like I'm completely anti police regardless of the facts.
Sum ting wong, Amigo.
gh....lb
edit: tl, Ken previously admitted the reason why a good percentage want to work the graveyard. Because that's where the action is, not because they lack seniority. I SAID, "A GOOD PERCENTAGE".
[ July 18, 2011, 05:30 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31462 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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tlbradford
Rimfires are MAGIC on COYOTES! If you do your part
Member # 1232
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posted July 18, 2011 07:54 PM
Edited my post to state that is my personal experience with the 10 or so that I know.
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"Dan Carey ain't that special" - LB
Posts: 423 | From: Spokane Valley, WA | Registered: Mar 2007
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted July 18, 2011 08:15 PM
TL, I'm far from the last word on the subject. Just a question to consider. Is it possible that the ten cops that you know are not being completely honest, since it's not PC to admit they crave the action and the recognition/promotions that go along with it?
I'm not particularly in the "know" on the issue, but I am pretty sure there is something to it. Especially when some of them stay way longer than seniority would allow them to get out.
gh....lb
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31462 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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tlbradford
Rimfires are MAGIC on COYOTES! If you do your part
Member # 1232
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posted July 18, 2011 09:06 PM
It is a poor sample size that I am pulling from. With the exception of a retired state trooper, the group as a whole is younger than 37, and many have been a part of law enforcement for less than 10 years. I haven't delved too deeply into the subject with all of them, but half worked graveyard until a day shift was available, a couple work the shift because they have spouses going to school and they need to watch kids during the day, and thats about all the polling I have done. I wouldn't doubt that all of them enjoyed the action as well, since it would make your shift go by more quickly, but I have not specifically asked them that. I do know several veterans that have experienced live combat, who have stated that they craved a job that gave them that same type of adrenaline rush, and had a hard time adjusting to a 9 to 5 job that was mundane.
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"Dan Carey ain't that special" - LB
Posts: 423 | From: Spokane Valley, WA | Registered: Mar 2007
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Ken
will be missed
Member # 3065
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posted July 19, 2011 07:07 AM
I say a few guys worked graveyards because the wife worked or went to school during the day, so the kids needed to be watched.
But working graves requires some regular sleep otherwise your in a bad way before the sun comes up. It kicks your butt when you get older.
But graveyard does not have all those report calls to deal with from businesses that are open, the schools who can't deal with their problem students, all the public relations crap that needs to be done, the list is endless. The big bosses are not around unless something big happens, shit that alone is worth working graveyard. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
You had the senior guys who always picked day shift so they could have the weekends off or something close to that, God bless them for volunteering for that shift. They didn't mind the endless reports and whining by everyone under the sun. Except me.
And you had some bosses that would make you rotate your shifts no matter what, because they wanted you exposed to other elements of policing. I hated those guys, LOL!!!!
I was lucky and could go 5 years straight on graveyard without being bothered.
Of course graveyard crews are the smallest in numbers too. So working with a good crew of guys was important.
But the bottom line working the late shift is where the action was, but the other shifts like days shift had the bank robbery stuff and the big heists at the local stores that sometimes turned out to be news worthy.
Some of our biggest pursuits and shoot outs happened on day shift or early swing shift. Graveyards had some of the longest pursuits that could go from the high desert to LA or Vegas.
But one of the biggest dangers was the speeds one might travel heading to a call or chasing a bad guy down the street.
When one travels well above the speed limit for one reason or another everyday, one can become complacent and take things for granted that results in disaster for yourself or someone else.
A lot of police cars get crashed every year for a variety of reasons. Up keep on patrol units is one VERY expensive part of a budget. The bean counters hate to see new police cars destroyed because of someone being stupid.
[ July 19, 2011, 07:08 AM: Message edited by: Ken ]
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I am 5'10",an asshole 220% for sure. Former dirty deed doer for PM. Corrupt too! My name is Festus.
Posts: 281 | From: High Desert | Registered: Aug 2008
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted July 19, 2011 02:00 PM
quote:
The anti-LE people here will look for fault.
The pro-LE people will see a line of duty death, understand the reasons of how or why this may have happened, and move on.
49
As to the first statement; it's obvious somebody was at fault, probably two people were at fault?
Now, as to the second, frankly, "understanding the reasons, and moving on" pretty much blows me away.
First of all, I understand the tragedy, a young man in the prime of life, possibly two? But, to write it off as sort of a "shit happens" is irresponsible. Even policemen are supposed to learn from mistakes, you can't just "move on".
This collision was 100% preventable, and they get a lot of training about high speed responding to a hot call, what to do and what not to do. I see overeager testosterone in play.
I'm not condemning those involved, I am looking at the results and with a cold eye, (yeah) finding fault.
gh....lb
edit: And look. The opinion stated above does not constitute a prevalent anti-cop attitude associated with this site.
[ July 19, 2011, 02:04 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31462 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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TOM64
Knows what it's all about
Member # 561
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posted July 19, 2011 08:53 PM
49 said, "It sounds like he was more the hero, and less the cowboy craving action."
Is it not possible an officer was in the wrong and caused his own death or the death of another?
49 said, "The anti-LE people here will look for fault."
I forgot about another officer I know, yes a friend even, we discuss machine guns quite often, they were training and a fellow officer shot him, putting him in a wheelchair for the rest of his life.
Do you not look for fault in a situation like that?
Yes, police work is a dangerous profession but until fault is found in a situation it will happen again.
That's not the reason why we clash here.
Posts: 2283 | From: okieland | Registered: Feb 2005
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Ken
will be missed
Member # 3065
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posted July 19, 2011 09:08 PM
On local news today it was mentioned this officer who died was not wearing his seatbelt at the time of the collision. ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
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I am 5'10",an asshole 220% for sure. Former dirty deed doer for PM. Corrupt too! My name is Festus.
Posts: 281 | From: High Desert | Registered: Aug 2008
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted July 19, 2011 10:55 PM
That little factoid really clouds the issues. I wonder if that's intentional, so they can hop out a little quicker?
Or, maybe in the excitement, he just forgot?
If you ask me, (while we wait for the helmut cam footage) that appears to be a serious mistake on the part of the decedent.
gh....lb
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31462 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted July 20, 2011 05:04 AM
"The pro-LE people will see a line of duty death, understand the reasons of how or why this may have happened, and move on."
I hope that what you said in the middle - understand the reasons of how and why this happened - means that you do take the time to assign blame and fault for why this happened so that everyone else can (hopefully) learn from this tragedy so that it doesn't happen again. Yet, it does, so someone isn't paying attention and they'll hurt or kill themselves or someone else because of it. The offcier may be alive today had he taken the time to take all safety precautions. In fact, he would be alive today, had he followed proper driving SOP's, assuming they have them there.
LB,
Your assessemnt of getting out of the car faster is somewhat correct. I was trained to always unbuckle about a half-block prior to arrival on scene and before you come into view of the situation so that you can exit the car if you need to without taking your eyes off the situation you're driving into.
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5438 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted July 20, 2011 10:03 AM
Figures. I do it myself, in country, when there is a good chance for a crosser, also serious business.
gh....lb
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31462 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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