This is topic Good Advice? in forum Member forum at The New Huntmastersbbs!.
To visit this topic, use this URL:
https://www.huntmastersbbs.com/cgi-bin/cgi-ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=6;t=002794
Posted by jimanaz (Member # 3689) on June 06, 2011, 10:25 PM:
I thought this was an interesting little article. Maybe some of you will as well. Some of the comments are good too.
After The Shot
I’m not a lawyer so take it for what it’s worth.
So what do you do if you are caught up in a deadly force scenario? Let me state again. I am not a lawyer. But, I have been on the witness stand for the Los Angeles Prosecuting Attorney Office.
The first thing that I want to tell you is this. Hold up your hand and say right now, out loud. I will not lie. Now repeat it. I will not lie. If you do not want to go to prison for something you needed to do, do not exaggerate, do not stretch the truth and do not lie, even once. Leave that to your attorney (no offense).
The aftermath of a violent act, a deadly act, is like a play. There are villains, there are bad guys, there are heroes and there are extras on the set. In fact, you may even really be on film. You never know. Play your part well and you’ll get the Oscar, play it bad and you’ll get free room and board for life.
So let’s start a sequence and go through it step by step. Because it’s easier to relate to, we’re going to use a violent armed robbery as the subject of this discussion.
You are alone on the street walking home from Monday night football with your buddies. You have a legal license to carry a gun. By the way, you better be able to prove you have had proper training and your license better be current and 100% legal at all times.
As you are walking along the sidewalk to your car, (in condition white) down the street, about a block away you look up and see some road crew guys working under construction lights when suddenly, out of nowhere, something hits you on the side of the head. There is an explosion of white light and you stagger, your knees buckle momentarily as you turn and you can barely hear, “Give me your f*cking money!”
All you see in front of you is a silhouette and the glint of a gun. “I said, give me your f*cking money! And your wallet! Hurry up motherf*cker or I’ll blow your f*ckin head off!” You reach for your wallet and you fumble it as you hand it over and it falls to the ground. “Stupid Mother F*cker!” And he fires off a round at you. It strikes the car beside you as you recoil then reach for your weapon. Boom! Boom! And the silhouette falls to the ground silent; his gun clatters across the ground into the bushes.
So here we go; If you are safe, do not flee the scene. If you have a cell phone, call 911 to report the incident. Call it in immediately. Don’t wait. All you need to do is say there’s been a shooting and give the location if you can. The construction crew down the street has already called it in. But you better too. You don’t want to be on record calling it in 45 minutes later. Stay put. Do not tamper with the scene or the evidence. Do not move the weapon closer to the body. Forget everything you’ve ever heard from all the bullsh*t advisors you’ve ever heard, i.e. putting the gun in his hand, hitting yourself to show he attacked you, yelling “don’t kill me”, dragging someone back into your house, and believe me when I tell you this, rearranging any evidence at all, is not the thing to do.
You hear the police sirens getting closer. Put your gun down on the ground. Put yourself in plain view. Don’t be moving around when the units roll up. And for God’s sake have your hands in plain view. Do not run toward the officers as they arrive. Let them come to you. Follow their commands; remember they know nothing about what just happened except that there was a shooting. For all they know you may be the bad guy and you don’t want to get shot too.
Now comes a very important part. You may be handcuffed. You may be arrested. If you are arrested be assured that you will be bonded out after a few hours, so don’t panic. It is just the way it is until things get sorted out. This is one of the most important things to keep in mind. From the moment that the Police arrive on the scene consider that anything and everything you say will have a direct effect on the outcome of the situation you are now faced with. You are being interviewed (questioned) from the moment they arrive.
If you are arrested, you will hear the following;
Miranda Rights
You have the right to remain silent.
Anything you say can be used against you in a court of law.
You have the right to an attorney now and during further questioning.
If you cannot afford an attorney, one will be appointed to you free of charge.
You must request an attorney before you answer any question-at all. Everyone always wants to get the story out of what just happened. It was a huge, traumatic event and you want to tell someone about it. It’s just human nature. Don’t do it!
You must request an attorney and have him present before you answer any questions. “Officer, I need an attorney before I answer any questions.”
Remember the Miranda Rights. You are being placed under arrest and anything you say can and will be used against you in a court of law. You have the right to an attorney. If you cannot afford one, one will be appointed for you.
You are not presumed guilty by requesting an attorney. And look carefully at Miranda. It says, “…will be used against you, (not for you) in a court of law.”
A very famous attorney once told me. “For God’s sake keep your mouth shut. You can think about it like this. Every word that comes out of your mouth is a $1000 bill floating away. Because that is what it is going to cost you for me to undo every one of those words.”
From this point forward it is not going to be an easy journey. There will be a criminal investigation. The DA may file a case against you or he may not. There may also be a follow on civil case by the bad guy’s family, and this whole mess may take years to get through. But, in the worst of times to follow, know that if you were justified and you kept your wits about you, that you will prevail and that justice will be served. What happens after the incident will be a roller coaster ride of elation and despair but you’ve still get to maintain the spirit of a warrior to see you through. It will not let you down.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 06, 2011, 10:46 PM:
That is very depressing shit. Almost make one wish he missed and got shot instead, but survive and maybe they will catch the guy, where you can view a lineup from your hospital bed? Much safer than blowing his brains out and getting arrested for your trouble.
So.....how would the scenario be very different in a home invasion or a residential burglary?
gh/lb
Posted by Ken (Member # 3065) on June 07, 2011, 07:12 AM:
Barney's horse will remain in the barn on this one for now. ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 07, 2011, 07:56 AM:
Come on! I'm about to bury everything in the back yard to make sure I don't use them and get arrested. What was I thinking, in the first place?
gh/lb
Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on June 07, 2011, 08:24 AM:
C'mon Ken, leave your high horse in the barn but trot out the stallion of justice...
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Posted by tlbradford (Member # 1232) on June 07, 2011, 08:24 AM:
What's wrong with holstering your firearm and having your hands in the air. For God's sake you are the victim in this scenario. If they tried to Mirandize me, or put me in cuffs, they better be ready for a fight. I understand having to submit your weapon as evidence in the investigation, but they can kindly ask for it. I know he is trying to help in case the "jack-booted thugs" actually arrest the victim, and his advice is sound on getting an attorney and not saying a word, but it just irritates me that it actually needs to be stated in an article that you may be arrested when all you did was defend yourself. It like all the disclaimers we have nowadays because politicians, lawyers, and crybabies are sue happy and blame other people for their stupid shit and lack of common sense. If all the stupid people could just be beaten with a baton we could probably survive just fine with the 10 Commandments as the only law in the land.
Posted by Ken (Member # 3065) on June 07, 2011, 08:33 AM:
LOL Tom, I am 5'4" it takes me awhile to get saddled up, besides that my horse is no stallion in real life, it's a simple sway back who wears support, so it's belly does not drag the ground when charging forward.
Posted by jimanaz (Member # 3689) on June 07, 2011, 08:48 AM:
For those interested, here is the above mentioned adnarim statement, supposedly word for word from Korwin's book.
"I’m interested in cooperating and will exercise my right to remain silent after reading this statement. Please do not attempt to violate my rights in this regard. I want to speak with my attorney. I respectfully ask you to honor this without any purpose of evasion and insist my lawyer be present prior to and during any questioning without exception."
"I refuse to consider to any search of my person, papers, premises, vehicle, immediate location and effects. I invoke my rights under the 2nd, 4th, 5th, 6th, 8th, 10th and 14th Amendments to the U.S. Constitution and any applicable state or federal laws. If you Mirandize me and ask if I’ll speak without my attorney present the answer is no. Thank you for your cooperation, and may I have a glass of water please."
Posted by Az-Hunter (Member # 17) on June 07, 2011, 08:49 AM:
Fortunately, it is a ficticous scenario. I can't imagine after being smacked upside the head, dazed, on ones knees, with the "perp" (don't ya love that term) hovering five feet away, with his handgun pointed right in your face, a guy is gonna make the stupid move to fumble for his pistol....the only boom,boom one would hear is the bullets headed for your big melon.
Posted by Ken (Member # 3065) on June 07, 2011, 08:59 AM:
Hello Vic, hows things in Florida? Any coyotes down your way?
Posted by Az-Hunter (Member # 17) on June 07, 2011, 09:08 AM:
Believe it or not, yes, there are indeed coyotes around here....I just don't know how one would hunt the sonofabitches:) This is fishing country, not huntin country, and I went hunting red snapper last sunday...killed my limit along with a variety of swimming creatures I don't know the names of.
Im literally a fish out of water here, vastly different flora and fauna than my native digs, but I'll get up to speed.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 07, 2011, 09:10 AM:
Okay, what if he points his gun at you, but since it isn't held sideways, you feel confident that he won't fire while you unlimber your piece?
What if you are struck with an Italian salami and momentarily stunned by the reek of garlic?
What if you turn and run, get shot in the back, (but it's only a flesh wound) drop and roll and manage to get locked into a modified Weaver "stance" and double tap his wiener?
Are there college courses we can take that addresses these issues?
gh/lb
Posted by Az-Hunter (Member # 17) on June 07, 2011, 09:15 AM:
If my aunt had balls; she'd be my uncle.
Posted by Dan Carey (Member # 987) on June 07, 2011, 09:16 AM:
"and may I have a glass of water please."
Do not ask for or accept any drink from an open container as it may be drugged with some new chemical to cause you to confess to a crime you didn't commit. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Posted by Semp (Member # 3074) on June 07, 2011, 09:27 AM:
There are only 4 words you need to know:
"I want a lawyer"
Then shut up. The facts will come out. No need to explain to the cops (some of whom are Neanderthals to begin with) and get all twisted up in your shorts.
Everyone who carries a gun for self protection should know the phone number of a lawyer of choice in case it is needed.
[ June 07, 2011, 09:27 AM: Message edited by: Semp ]
Posted by Ken (Member # 3065) on June 07, 2011, 09:30 AM:
LOL Vic, I was actually shocked when I heard you moved, my first thought was "talk about a fish out water"? But at least you can come HOME when you decide and get after them, at least I hope you would.
Posted by Ken (Member # 3065) on June 07, 2011, 09:41 AM:
Hey don't poke fun at Aunt's with balls, here in the deep inner parts of the Commifornia high desert where the "battle of the bangos" are played late at night, such families exsist. ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
Posted by smithers (Member # 646) on June 07, 2011, 10:15 AM:
This statement has nothing to do with this thread, but everyone should read the books On Combat and On Killing by Lt. Col. Dave Grossman. Very interesting books. On Combat is especially intriguing.
Jimanaz, mentioning "condition white" is what made me think of it.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 07, 2011, 10:21 AM:
What is condition white? I have only heard of condition 1 and 2?
gh/lb
Posted by Possumal (Member # 823) on June 07, 2011, 10:26 AM:
Hey Vic, CCP ought to be able to help you out. He used to live and hunt coyotes down there in Florida.
Posted by smithers (Member # 646) on June 07, 2011, 10:49 AM:
Taken from On Combat
Conditions and heart rate
White: 60- 80 Bpm
Yellow: 80- 120 bpm
Red: 120- 140 bpm
Gray: 140- 180 bpm
Black: 180- 220 bpm
115-145 optimal survival and combat performance level for: complex motor skills, visual reaction time, cognitive reaction time.
Above 175 bpm: irrational fight or flee, freezing, submissive behavior, voiding of bladder and bowels, gross motor skills (running, charging, etc. at highest performance level)
Edit: this is for hormonal or fear induced heart rate, not exercise.
175 bpm: cognitive processing deteriorates, vasoconstriction (reduced bleeding from wounds), loss of peripheral vision (tunnel vision), loss of depth perception, loss of near vision, auditory exclusion.
[ June 07, 2011, 10:55 AM: Message edited by: smithers ]
Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on June 07, 2011, 03:04 PM:
Good advice Jim.
As stated, get a lawyer there.
Posted by Ken (Member # 3065) on June 07, 2011, 04:27 PM:
OK, time to get serious, because Jim thought this was an interesting issue to dicuss, and it is indeed.
Long before I became a cop, and to this day, I have heard these very issues come up and debated, the endless war stories of getting arrested by the cops for shooting a turd or hurting one for defending yourself, time and time again. It will be debated LONG after we are all dead of old age.
AGAIN I am speaking from California, my experience HERE, no where else. The laws may very, I simply don't know them all.
I have been reading the ARMED citizen in my NRA magazine since 1974 and the many armed encounters common folks have. I don't remember the author ever indicating that the citizen was arrested and booked for murder or assault or any other crime. Did I miss something, or was the author misleading us and leaving out the ugly horror stories for purposes of NRA propaganda?
I told my buddy about this thread when he called, he is still on the job. He laughed and said, "good god, does the fear ever subside", I'd buy a citizen a beer for blowing up a dirtbag. MY thoughts exactly.
ONE TIME, ONE TIME, ONE TIME, did you all read that, have I witnessed or ever heard of a citizen defending his life,family, or property against attack with a firearm or other deadly weapon being arrested by the cops. THAT includes UNARMED burglars.
Yep, I was there, it was not my case, it was the detective called to the scene, he was an idiot, and he pissed off everyone for his actions. Citizens and fellow cops. DID I tell you some cops are idiots?
A man and wife were at a local restuarant having dinner minding their own business. There were a couple of turds sitting near them, drunk and looking for a fight.
The guy with his wife happened to look over at them and one speaks up and says, "what the fuck you lookin at". The other guys says sorry I didn't mean any harm. WELL that wasn't good enough and the turds, they kept chippin.
OOPS to be continued the wife just came home time to go to dinner!!!
Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on June 07, 2011, 04:40 PM:
You turd this was getting good. Tell her to wait, be the man of the house!
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 07, 2011, 05:16 PM:
Ken, you tell the little woman to cool her heels while you BS a little bit with your online chums. Otherwise, you look like a wimp.
Bwahahaha!
Posted by Ken (Member # 3065) on June 07, 2011, 09:17 PM:
Ok sorry for the delay, besides dinner with the wife, I got two LONG phone calls from some coppers that needed some advise on something.
Anyways the guy and his wife decide they should leave to avoid trouble. They get up say nothing to the drunk guys and walk out of the restuarant.
The turds follow, as soon as the guy walks out into the parking lot, they attack him from behind,and start beating him. The guy goes down, they put the boots to him.
Wife jumps in and gets punched. The turds continue to work the husband over. The wife pulls out a buck knife and stabbs the hell out of both of the turds. STICKS them good and both go down.
I am the second unit on scene, we got 3 people down in the parking lot and witnesses every where.
ALL 3 that are down are in bad shape. Fire department call for 2 medivac helicopters for airlift to local trauma center.
We got a ton of witnesses who all pretty much say the samething, unprovoked attack. Looks like a good self defense case, SO we thought.
The wife is being treated for her injuries I interview her and her story matches what the witnesses say. NO one knows each other in this incident.
The detective arrives and is doing what detectives do. NEXT thing I know this woman is in handcuffs and the detective is asking one of us to transport her to the station. I say to myself WTF!!
The poor woman is hysterical, and now the woman's mom and dad and family members show up see her in handcuffs and go ballistic. We get everyone calmed down. I unhandcuff the woman and put her in the back of my car. She starts throwing up she is so scared and nervous.
I go over to my Sergeant and say WTF boss why is she getting arrested. Sergeant who in real life has no balls says the detective has decided to arrest the female to cover our ass. I said Sarge this is a clear case of self defense these two turds would have beat that guy to death if the wife had not stabbed them. Sarge says I know I know it's not my decision.
I went over to the family members and flat told them their daughter had done nothing wrong and I was confident the DA would not file charges. I gave them my business card and told them to have their attorney call me, I would testifie in their behalf. But for now I must follow orders and book their daughter. They were happy and calm by then. I felt SO sorry for the woman and I still feel to this day it sent a VERY BAD message to those witnesses about SELF DEFENSE.
Within 48 hours, the DA had dropped all charges against the woman,(attempted murder), ruled CLEAR SELF DEFENSE, YA THINK!!!! The two turds get filed on for aggrivated assualt with great bodily injury. The husband lost a kidney in the assault.
The woman will NO DOUBT forever be confused and hesitant to make a quick decision on when to fight or run because of that night.
It worked out in the end for her, but she didn't need to go through all that shit either.
[ June 07, 2011, 09:19 PM: Message edited by: Ken ]
Posted by Ken (Member # 3065) on June 07, 2011, 09:40 PM:
The incidents of self defense around here have actually been far and few between, but they do happen.
I handled one case where a jewelry store owner shot and killed one of 5 suspects who robbed him.
Two other cases where citizens caught car burglars in their cars, the car burglar got stupid and got clobbered several times with baseball bats.
A group of citizens captured a car thief who got stupid and got lumped up REAL good for his efforts.
EACH and EVERY incident the parties involved along with their friends thought FIRST thing, they were going to jail for what they had done. NOT EVEN close to that ever happening. NO ARRESTS on any citizen.
YEP each and everyone because of what they had heard from EVERYONE else about these horror stories THEY were in deep shit with the cops.
I actually spent more time calming everyone down and trying to convince them ALL is well than I did doing the freakin paperwork afterwards.
[ June 07, 2011, 09:56 PM: Message edited by: Ken ]
Posted by Ken (Member # 3065) on June 07, 2011, 09:46 PM:
In one case in the City of LA, a jewelry store owner in downtown, KILLED 6 robbery suspects, only 3 were actually armed the others were simulated in a period of 4 years.
He was never arrested, no charges filed against him for ANYTHING. The cops finally suggested he move his business somewhere else because he had become a target of the local turds.
I have read my share of stories in the local paper where such incidents have happened where more than a few burglars were shot, the burglars were unarmed. NO ARRESTs or charges filed by the District Attorney.
[ June 07, 2011, 09:52 PM: Message edited by: Ken ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 07, 2011, 10:01 PM:
I think shopkeepers have a lot smoother sailing than a citizen in a restaurant or a house burglar.
I have had cops tell me I can't defend myself with a firearm without getting in BIG trouble.
gh/lb
Posted by Ken (Member # 3065) on June 07, 2011, 10:14 PM:
That is just BS LB for what they said. House, business, walking the dog,standing in your front yard. YOU have a right to defend yourself when attacked, just like the cops do.
One of the worst problems we have and I think it has been discussed is mis-information being put out by cops themselves.
But what is one to do? YOU hesitate in the scenario's I've dealt with you will die.
Oh let me tell you LB, some cops go through this same question in their heads, THEY too are not sure themselve despite the training. THEY have died in the line of duty picking their nose.
It can be difficult to program the mind to react when you need to. In most cases you must react and be decisive in seconds in order to survive.
Just look at the bullet button laws on the AR's, some folks still being arrested because the word has not reached ALL the cops. It's costing some cities big money for false arrest claims.
[ June 07, 2011, 10:16 PM: Message edited by: Ken ]
Posted by Ken (Member # 3065) on June 07, 2011, 10:36 PM:
LB, just call me the answerman. This is from the California Penal code. YOU should note the term "any person", that means me you and the po-po. I'll show you another section later.
197. Homicide is also justifiable when committed by any person in
any of the following cases:
1. When resisting any attempt to murder any person, or to commit a
felony, or to do some great bodily injury upon any person; or,
2. When committed in defense of habitation, property, or person,
against one who manifestly intends or endeavors, by violence or
surprise, to commit a felony, or against one who manifestly intends
and endeavors, in a violent, riotous or tumultuous manner, to enter
the habitation of another for the purpose of offering violence to any
person therein; or,
3. When committed in the lawful defense of such person, or of a
wife or husband, parent, child, master, mistress, or servant of such
person, when there is reasonable ground to apprehend a design to
commit a felony or to do some great bodily injury, and imminent
danger of such design being accomplished; but such person, or the
person in whose behalf the defense was made, if he was the assailant
or engaged in mutual combat, must really and in good faith have
endeavored to decline any further struggle before the homicide was
committed; or,
4. When necessarily committed in attempting, by lawful ways and
means, to apprehend any person for any felony committed, or in
lawfully suppressing any riot, or in lawfully keeping and preserving
the peace.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 07, 2011, 11:07 PM:
Okay, as soon as the concrete dries, I will bust it up and dig up my means of self defense.
gh/lb
Posted by Ken (Member # 3065) on June 07, 2011, 11:28 PM:
Ok LB, I saved this for last just to show you those cops you talked to were full of crap.
I'd hate to be accussed of being anti-cop and not having something to back myself up with.
HOW is this one for your BURGLAR ISSUES. YOU don't see in there where the TURD has to be armed do you?
198.5. Any person using force intended or likely to cause death or
great bodily injury within his or her residence shall be presumed to
have held a reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or great
bodily injury to self, family, or a member of the household when that
force is used against another person, not a member of the family or
household, who unlawfully and forcibly enters or has unlawfully and
forcibly entered the residence and the person using the force knew or
had reason to believe that an unlawful and forcible entry occurred.
As used in this section, great bodily injury means a significant
or substantial physical injury.
LB, this is when you would USE your command voice telling the TURD to halt, then he suddenly reached for his waistband. PRETTY cool huh.
DON'T call the cops until the TURD is dead unless you know he can't hurt you, then call them, go stand outside in the middle of the driveway and when they pull up show them your hands and TAKE no guns with you.
Feel free to drag his ass back outside so he don't bleed all over that white carpet either. NAW just joking better to leave him lay where he falls.
You'll have those pretty CSI girls wanting to take photos and everything.
When you call 911 stay on the line with the dispatcher so she can tell the cops what your wearing etc,etc.
[ June 07, 2011, 11:53 PM: Message edited by: Ken ]
Posted by Ken (Member # 3065) on June 08, 2011, 07:37 AM:
Now onto Jim's post on what you should tell the cops after you shoot a bad guy.
If I am called to an incident where you shot someone, they have been killed or injured as a result of the confrontation, I ask you what happened, you invoke your 5th amendament rights, I only have a couple of options.
It will be obvious your upset and scared. If the physical evidence points to a self defense issue, I will explain that to you. If you still wish to remain silent, want to talk to a lawyer, then I will ask you if you have one, call him now if you'd like.
If your lawyer shows up, I will be glad to let him talked to you in private. If you have been advised to say nothing, then depending on the amount of evidence available that would allow us to determine what probably happened, I will send you home, pending further investigation.
YOU may have to wait several days, or weeks before YOU are cleared or charges filed on you. JUST like cops have too. FREAKIN stressful to be honest.
NO MATTER what happens, a complete investigation MUST be done and forwarded to the District Attorney for final determination of ALL the circumstances. This applies to EVERYONE, cops and citizens.
Remember what I said in my very FIRST posting, killing someone is SERIOUS stuff. Remember the bad guy has family too, so their going to be screaming for your head, just like what happens with the cops.
HERE is where problems come into play in some cases. We find out you know the person you just killed, no physical evidence to support a self defense claim, and YOU ain't talkin.
I hope you don't think your going home without an explanation do you? If your lawyer shows up, then we are ALL going to the station to find out what happened. YOU will be riding with me though.
IF you still refuse to talk, then your going to be arrested most likely, hopefully on the most appropriate charge. This District Attorney will again determine what to do with you. It might come down to facing trial.
If the Jury finds you NOT GUILTY, then your home free, as to criminal charges. YOUR not out of the woods yet, YOU may face a law suit by the surviving family members. COPS face that dilema all the time. The family will be screaming YOU should have just shot the gun out of their brothers hand.
To protect yourself in such cases, if your a wealthy person like LB, you might wish to take out personal liability coverage if you are one who works or lives in a bad area. CHECK your home owners policy, see if they have coverage for you on such issues. I have it, and it covers slander and liable issues too. The insurance company will provide a lawyer if you are sued. But CHECK and make sure.
If NOT get it. A nice little piece of security.
[ June 08, 2011, 08:01 AM: Message edited by: Ken ]
Posted by Ken (Member # 3065) on June 08, 2011, 08:13 AM:
Allow me to clear up a SERIOUS misconception that some have about lawyers.
Cops are CONSTANTLY intimidated by citizens with my lawyer is going to have your ass, I will be out of here, my lawyer will stop this crap dead in his tracks, blah,blah,blah. Yea OKAY, MAYBE?
YOUR lawyer has NOT an ounce of power or authority to stop an arrest from taking place.
OH he or she can holler,scream,threaten all day long, it won't stop the cops from arresting you.
YOUR lawyer will kick our ass in the courtroom, NOT on the street or at the police station.
The courtroom is the lawyers house. NOW they are in charge of the cop. IF the cops have screwed up, that is where the showdown takes place.
ALWAYS better to maintain a professional relationship with lawyers, NO matter who they are. I don't care to get on their shit list because I am always being an asshole with them. In most case the feeling is mutual.
I have had a couple lawyers try and intimidate me on the streets, I simply smiled and said, "don't go there counsler". Payback was a bitch, once I got into the courtroom.
So remember, a lawyer is part of the check and balance system in our society. Remember it's the guy in the black robe or the jury who has the final say.
Posted by Possumal (Member # 823) on June 08, 2011, 08:27 AM:
Ken, the way you explained the various scenarios fits what I have read or heard before. Good for you.
About 20 years ago, I was visiting an old golfing buddy in Tampa, FL. He lived in the north end of town which was a pretty bad area. Most people had bars on their windows, alarm systems, and a good watchdog. One old fellow and his wife, both about 80 years old, were shopping in a Publix supermarket. When they came back out to their car, the old fellow unlocked the car on the passenger side and let his wife get in, and then he unlocked the rear to put in his groceries. After finishing that, he came around and got in the driver's side. One of the local motorcycle gang thugs came up to the car, reached in and tried to pull the wife's purse out and was about to take her arm with it. The old fellow pulled his 357 magnum out and popped the big ugly bastard dead center in the chest, dropping him right there. Not only was he not arrested or even charged, the local cops patroled his house at odd intervals to take care of him and his wife. He was their hero.
We used to have laws here in Kentucky that said a burglar had to be halfway in your house before you were justified in shooting him. They changed that several years ago and now you only have to feel like you are in danger, even out in your yard or in a public place.
I sure wish I had caught the bastards that broke in on us in September 2009. I wouldn't have worried for even a second about any of that stuff. I find that a lot of people are intimidated by the law in these regards, but I believe it is mainly because they don't understand what the law actually is. Perhaps it should be posted in the newspaper on a regular basis to keep the people educated.
Posted by Ken (Member # 3065) on June 08, 2011, 08:49 AM:
Now those reading all this stuff may be asking themselves a bunch a questions, they may or may not have a better understanding of the system or a starting point on where to look for such laws in their state to further answers questions.
Some could care less, but they will if they come under the scrutiny of the law arm of the law.
Have I covered ALL the variables, the WHAT IF's and could be's, NOT EVEN close as far as I am concerned.
Might have added some confusion to the mess for some.
WELCOME to the CLUB of decision making in a critical situation. LIFE or DEATH to be exact, someone else's life or YOURS.
It has taken me several hours over the last couple days to put just SOME information forth and I am not even close to covering all the possible scenarios that can unfold.
BUT ALL this shit discussed MUST be decided in a few seconds in WAY too many cases on when to shoot or not shoot.
If your confused, so are some cops on the street. WHO they are remains to be determined, and I am sorry to say ONLY after something happens will most of us know.
NATURE of the beast, WERE all human. Easy to quarterback when your not pulling the trigger or driving the bus.
Is what I have said here the GOSPEL, NO FREAKIN way, it is a perspective. A simple think and go out on your own and learn what the laws are and the procedures in your local area.
I had many a good teacher in my day. DID I think the sun rose and set in their ass, yes some, but I still had to go read the law for myself.
When I went to court, I'd look the fool if I answered questions posed by counsel with, "my sergeant told me this, and this person told me that, SO I did it. BAD MISTAKE, you have now earned a reputation of STUPID among lawyers and judges especially if what your were told was wrong.
Use what you are told by those in the know as a GUIDE to further education and further research.
A simple starting point on ANY issue you are might not know about.
Protecting you rights and working within the law is a serious issue.
If you hide in the house all day, THEN don't worry about too much.
THIS IS NOT legal advise. This is something to THINK about if your anti-cop, but wonder about what to do in a given situation.
Posted by Possumal (Member # 823) on June 08, 2011, 08:59 AM:
Staying or hiding in the house is not the answer up here. Home invasions are getting far too commonplace. We have had 5 or 6 home invasions in this general neighborhood in the past few months. Two of the homes didn't even have their deadbolt locked, which is asking for trouble, IMO.
Posted by tlbradford (Member # 1232) on June 08, 2011, 09:22 AM:
quote:
Okay, as soon as the concrete dries, I will bust it up and dig up my means of self defense.
Good thing you decided to buy that Glock.
Posted by Ken (Member # 3065) on June 08, 2011, 09:53 AM:
Remember I said cops can be just as confused as citizens, they worry sometimes what might happen if they do x,y and z?
My first shooting in April 1994 left me wondering what might happen to me as a result of what I did, REMEMBER I was not loved by some of those in power, because I had arrested some of their friends for DUI. SO yes there were a couple who hoped to hang me on this particular shooting. THAT's what I was told by the honest cops I worked with. BEHIND the scenes crap. I CAME out CLEAN and JUSTIFIED on my shooting.
I WAS under more scrutiny and the microscope just because of that. AS a result of ALL the unknowns going on it flat FUCKED UP my ability and mind to make day to day decisions while ALL this shit was going on, and react instinctively to what I had been trained to do, and done many times before.
I was working while I awaited the findings of the DA. I encounter a burglar coming out of an apartment, detained him. While searching him for weapons, I discovered a large screwdriver in his back pocket.
When I started to reach for it, the fight was on. All I could do was struggle to stay on top of him to control him. He was a little guy, so that helped a little, but he was a squirrel.
I finally fell on top of him, I was able to keep him down, but not able to handcuff him and keep him on the deck.
It was on a busy street in the morning, rush hour traffic, lots of folks watchin, BUT no one helping.
I was able to get to my radio and call for help. Once I put out the help call, I could hear the calvary was coming, not only from my guys, but the neighboring city which I was on the border of.
Hearing sirens give ones some extra energy, but I sure as hell had reach my adrenalin peak NO MORE energy. ONCE your adrenaline leaves your body, YOU become weak.
The calvary arrived and tooked the turd into custody.
When I tried to stand, I couldn't. I sat there on the ground like a helpless fool for a few minutes. One of the guys sat down with me and we fired up a smoke and chatted.
He asked me if I was OKAY, I looked at him and said, "fuck no", I gotta go see the boss, I need some time off. He helped me up, said he would take my crook and handle the paperwork, and to go back to the office, NOW!!! He was an old timer himself and knew what was going on.
I went to my boss and told him what happened. He said Kenny you know by policy I gotta take your gun and send you home don't you? I said yes sir. I AIN'T taken your gun, but you get your ass home and relax, I'll call you in a couple days.
My Lieutenant was an old homicide detective and had investigated hundreds of officer involved shootings, he knew what was going on, and the stress of wondering about the outcome of a shooting one had been involved in.
After some time off and a little therapy I was as good as new and back to being an asshole.
This is all human mind boggling shit that all of you could or have went through on any given number of issues. FEAR of the unknown is the biggest factor. Remember I told you, I understand fear from many perspectives.
Back in 1994 if you talked about anything like this openly some cops would just refer to you as a PUSSY. MACHO cops die too!!!
If you want to help someone understand something, you tell them everything. You cannot learn from anything if what information you are getting is SELECTIVE.
You now know why I felt for the poor lady who stabbed those two turds defending her husband.
[ June 08, 2011, 10:03 AM: Message edited by: Ken ]
Posted by 22-250 (Member # 36) on June 08, 2011, 10:41 AM:
Ken, thanks you posts are very helpful.
On another thought, what you think of the recent surge in the right to carry movement in California. Meaning the people who exercising their right to opening carry a firearm, which is not loaded. i.e. no round in the chamber with the magazine loaded. It seems to be getting a lot of attention lately.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 08, 2011, 11:41 AM:
You never know what the Democrats in Sacramento will do to your civil rights, but they will try their best.
As some know, I carry a purse. It's heavy, but could prove useful one day.
gh/lb
Posted by smithers (Member # 646) on June 08, 2011, 11:50 AM:
You can open carry here in MI. I don't see too many people doing it though. Once in a great while I will see someone but...
Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on June 08, 2011, 01:31 PM:
Uh...............El Bee;
Decendants of the mountain men don't carry a 'purse'. They carry a 'possibles bag' that will contain items to deal with possible problems.
Just say'n.............
Posted by DEL GUE (Member # 1526) on June 08, 2011, 01:38 PM:
A 'purse'??? Never heard it called that before.
It's 'an urban man-bag'.
My bro and I were just talking about open carry yesterday over lunch, and we both agreed that even if it was legal here, we'd still carry concealed. Don't like being bullet magnets, and do like the element of surprise.
Thought about getting an urban man-bag once, but then I'd have to get pumps and a feather boa...the cost to properly accessorize just wasn't worth it.
[ June 08, 2011, 01:43 PM: Message edited by: DEL GUE ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 08, 2011, 02:47 PM:
To deflect wise ass comments, I beat them to it by calling it a purse. At times I have said it's my holster, and at other times I said the purpose was to carry my medication.
What totally pisses me off is when gaining access to some event, even a movie, my wife would pass through without a blink, even though she had the coke cans, but they asked to look in my medication bag. WTF?
I refuse, while asking why they did not look in her purse, which is one reason why she goes in front of me. Well, did go in front of me, I mean. They always back off, at least so far.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by DEL GUE (Member # 1526) on June 08, 2011, 02:57 PM:
Shit, if I toted one of them around, I'd tell them that's where I carry my condoms.
Or tell'em it's where you carry your meds, and hey, they aren't trying to violate your HIPAA rights, are they???? I mean, that's Federal violations right there. Or wait, are they sexually discriminating??? That's more Federal violations. Hmmm. Who should you call first...the Feds...your attorney...the media??? Tell'em you'll be logging this incident (get the dweeb's first AND last name), and if such transgressions continue, that would constitute a pattern of conduct and would be actionable on multiple levels!!!
Or, hey, do you ask the brothers to look in their urban man-bags? Is this some kind of racial thing?????
It doesn't mean shit, but it sounds good!
[ June 08, 2011, 03:01 PM: Message edited by: DEL GUE ]
UBB.classicTM
6.3.0