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Posted by Nikonut (Member # 188) on January 06, 2011, 06:00 PM:
Hey fellas...
A while back we had a discussion at another forum regarding shooting safety. I had been watching Fred Eichler on "Predator Nation" and his first attempt at hunting coyotes. The episode was sponsored by Hornady and he was using FMJ's!
That has always been a safety issue with me(especially in populated areas like Illinois), so I wrote to Hornady. I'm happy to say they have done what I consider the right thing!!! They will continue to get my praise and business.
Here is my letter and their reply:
_______________________________________________________________
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
To: Webmaster
This is a response sent by Tom Ciambella using the feedback form on the website. The details of the message follow below:
Subject:Other
Hello Hornady!
I just watched online video of Fred Eichler on the Predator Nation show. He was using Hornady 55gr FMJ ammo to hunt coyotes. First let me say I am a big fan of Hornady ammo and I have been hunting/calling predators for a very long time. I have never, nor will I ever use FMJ ammo for hunting!!! I certainly hope you will look into this... it is promoting an unsafe situation that all sportsmen should be made aware of and discourage. Send him a box of 55grVMax,HP,or SP but please don't let him promote FMJ's for hunting!!!
Thank You, TomC
----------------------------------------------------------------
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Hornady's Reply!
From: Neil Davies
Sent: Thursday, January 06, 2011 3:53 PM
Subject:Contact from Tom Ciambella
Mr. Ciambella,
I sincerely apologize for the very delayed response.
We appreciate your input. I must convey that there are many coyote hunters that shoot coyotes with FMJ’s (not the best terminal performance choice) in order to minimize pelt damage. Mr. Eichler and I have spoken, and he is now using all V-MAX bullets for his hunts.
Thank you for taking the time to contact us.
Regards,
Neil Davies
Hornady Mfg Co.
1- 308-382-1390 ext. 263
____________________________________________________
Says a lot about Hornady... my hats off to them!
Nikonut
Posted by TundraWookie (Member # 1044) on January 06, 2011, 06:17 PM:
That's a professional response for sure.
I'm a FMJ user since I want minimal fur damage on fox to wolves from the same caliber. I hunt in areas where there isn't anybody in the direction I'm shooting for 100 miles typically though. If I hunted around urban areas or areas with people traffic, I'd go with a different bullet for sure.
Niko,
See if they'll get Fred into some TreeBark camo too and you'll really be onto something. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on January 06, 2011, 08:14 PM:
Good job Niko.
The FMJ are'nt as bad as you think and don't bouch around anymore than a heavey bullet shot from a 243 or larger, hell even a 75 gr. shot from a 223 will bounce as much..
We used to use FMJ alot back in the early 80's but stopped useing them due to the number of hunters we had in the area and due to alot of wounding done by the FMJ if you did'nt hit bone. Fox are pretty fragile and did'nt take much to kill them but a coyote could take 1-2 hits from a FMJ and just keep going..
When hunting with others we don't use anything bigger than a 243 ackley and when the ackley is used its used on a coyote that has crossed the road and is in a safe shooting area..
One time years ago I was siteing in a new 22-250 shooting 55 gr FMJ's, I just put a scope on and went out to a vacant farm that had a long driveway and set up to site the gun in. Found out I was shooting to low and could see the snow fly when the bullet bounced down the driveway towards the target.. After I got done siteing in I walked to the target and even found some of the fired bullets laying on top of the crusted snow. I think I still have some of them in a box somewhere, the point of the bullet was bent some and others looked good enough to shoot again if one wanted to..
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on January 06, 2011, 11:44 PM:
This is my opinion. Using FMJ bullets is not a good choice in almost any hunting situation. The pelt damage reason is very much offset by losing a runner. The first consideration for me is killing the critter.
So, Hornady claims that a lot of folks are using FMJ bullets? I have to wonder if that's smart?
Tundra, what you do is your business, no offense, but asside from cripples and in spite of whatever point TA is trying to make, they sure as hell skip on down the road and out here in the dry season, they also can cause a fire.
Besides that, I have never seen a full metal jacketed bullet that was accurate. Not up to my standards, in any case.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Paul Melching (Member # 885) on January 07, 2011, 04:51 AM:
Hornady is a good company
Eichler is an Idiot
Fmj's not my choice for anything but handgun rangeloads!
Posted by George Ackley (Member # 898) on January 07, 2011, 05:48 AM:
Fred Eichler is the man, i also think his shows are the best out there
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on January 07, 2011, 06:17 AM:
Point i was trying to make Leonard is most of the bullets used today will bounce as much as a FMJ depending on the angle of the shot.
I saw Fred's show once, reminded me too much of "What's his name" so I have'nt watched them since..
Posted by Paul Melching (Member # 885) on January 07, 2011, 08:30 AM:
Yeah George hes the man ! I watched his show as he sent a 223 fmj at a coyote above him on a ridge top and missed wonder where that round went bet he doesnt know either. I like to know whats behind my target , just a personal prefrence. Ive watched some of his other shows and appreciated his enthusiasm but this show just makes me crazy.
edited for poor typing skills
[ January 07, 2011, 08:31 AM: Message edited by: Paul Melching ]
Posted by George Ackley (Member # 898) on January 07, 2011, 09:40 AM:
I guess we all make mistakes some times, I seen that sky lined shot and thought wow ![[Embarrassed]](redface.gif)
never the less, the guy is the real deal.
he isn't jut some TV personality , he has taken all 29 big game north American has to offer.
And aslso did using a recurve.
he ant the Mike Dillon type, being lead around the country by real predator hunters.
I have used FMJ rounds to kill predators and still do at times,and me myself don't see the problem with it. but no I wouldn't advertise it on a TV show .
but like I said this guy is as close to a everyday hunter as you can get and we all do dumb thing I guess.
sky lined shots are bad situations I agree. but the use of FMJ's is a personal option some guy make, if it not illegal then who am I to say.
[ January 07, 2011, 09:45 AM: Message edited by: George Ackley ]
Posted by TundraWookie (Member # 1044) on January 07, 2011, 09:56 AM:
Leonard,
I haven't had any runoffs from FMJ's up here. My 6PPC shooting FMJ's is deadly accurate too and fires with all my snow hasn't been a concern. Our summer forest fires stay burning under the tundra and flare back up in the summers, which is always lovely. I better buy stock in FMJ's before the anti's and FMJ haters put an end to them. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Posted by Lone Howl (Member # 29) on January 07, 2011, 10:05 AM:
I saw Freds reply on PM and respect it, but agree fmjs are a bad idea overall. He needs to realize that whatever he uses, and says it on TV, tons of guys are gonna go out and do the same cause Fred Eichler said so.
He should use his powers for good, not evil lol.
I also believe he is the real deal, average hard working hunter. He does not have the trophy rack syndrome that drives hunting nowdays, he takes what he can take most times, and doesnt care, and I really respect that about him.
He is a little sloppy when it comes to predator calling, but he genuinly enjoys it I think. I wish he would do a lot more handcalling though, jmo.
Fred, if you are reading this, use more handcalls, cause I said so lol.
Mark
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on January 07, 2011, 10:57 AM:
Hmm? Another celebrity I never heard of? Well, in my defense, I can't stand, and never watch hunting shows, or outdoor channels. One exception, I have been watching Les Johnsons show, but gads! nothing but reruns, so that's about to change.
I never had an interest in hunt shows or videos, I'd just as soon watch the History Channel or the Military Channel, or Dr Phil.
Good hunting. LB
PS
I was kidding about Dr Phil.
edit: oh, and Fred sounds a lot like Unknown....Criner, and we knew him before he got famous
[ January 07, 2011, 11:00 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by Nikonut (Member # 188) on January 07, 2011, 11:06 AM:
Maybe you fellas are taking what I have said a little wrong... I certainly don't hate ANY bullet or want any made illegal.
It's just MY personal opinion that there are many safer and more ethical choices for hunting. That's the real choice we should be making as hunters... to promote safety and ethics in what we do and do that in the best manner possible.
Like Mark said, Fred has a big voice and should use it to educate new hunters and for the good of all. He is funny to watch sometimes when he gets wound up!
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on January 07, 2011, 11:31 AM:
Illegal? Where'd you see that?
I just think FMJ boolets are a poor choice for damned near ANY application. I can't explain why Tundra's seem to defy the laws of physics...(just kidding) but can't think of a legitimate use where another style wouldn't be a whole lot better, reduced velocities or not.
So, we have a big time famous TV hunter that uses FMJ's? Good for him. I disagree, that's my story and I'm sticking to it.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by JohnLK (Member # 1978) on January 07, 2011, 11:47 AM:
Here is a pic of a Nosler 70gr B-Tip after it exited a coyote.The coyote is in the top red circle and the bullet seperated the jacket and the lead core skimmed along on top of the snow like a frisbee and curved until it stopped. It traveled about 75yds. My foot prints followed the bullets path.I was sitting by the 2 big White Pines and the coyote was about 140yds out when I shot. 
Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on January 07, 2011, 11:56 AM:
Don't remember where it was, but at least one of the states (western) that I've hunted doesn't allow FMJ for hunting. I don't use the things, so it was no big deal; much like the hi-cap magazines that aren't allowed everywhere for hunting.
Always; check the regs.
Posted by Paul Melching (Member # 885) on January 07, 2011, 12:18 PM:
I am sure Fred is a great guy and as I said some of his shows were entertaing to watch. I just think with his position in the spotlight he could do better. he is new to predator hunting and its shows thats all. no question that he is easliy a more accomplished hunter than most including myself.I have seen him take many animals with a recurve bow and did a fine job of it. the idiot comment came from him not editing out the over the hill shot, while I like it when on occassion they show their misses that should not have been one of them it should be on the cutting room floor or the digital waste basket or?.
any fmj designed for millitary use is illeagl in Az. for hunting, but that definition is usually up to the critter cop.
Posted by TundraWookie (Member # 1044) on January 07, 2011, 02:10 PM:
If I was strictly going after yotees, then I'd opt for a different boolit. Being that I might have a fox or thin skinned lynx show up, means I have to have my bases on fur minimization covered on all grounds and the 80gr FMJ seems to do the trick so far. Don't even suggest a .17 TA if you're reading this, I don't want to break out the .17-225AI and wound a wolf.
[ January 07, 2011, 02:12 PM: Message edited by: TundraWookie ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on January 07, 2011, 03:37 PM:
I'm a little confused, as usual. You say this guy is an experienced hunter, right? But, he has a show called Predator Nation and it easy to see that he is not exactly an expert, right? So, my question would be, if he is new to predator hunting, how did he happen to get with a show called Predator Nation? Doesn't the name itself convey a certain degree of expertise insofar as hunting predators? Okay, he's a great guy, I get that. Why a show about something with which he is not very experienced? At least, some of the viewers can tell that he seems to lack a great deal of experience...which is why he uses a FMJ and the rationale is that it's to save the fur. We need to do a survey and ask how many of our members use a full metal jacket? I think it's about ONE.
Good hunting. LB
edit: and by the way, a FMJ at normal velocities can blow the hell out of a coyote, depending on how far away he is and where you hit him.
[ January 07, 2011, 03:40 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by George Ackley (Member # 898) on January 07, 2011, 04:28 PM:
Fred Eichler Is anything but new to killing predators he is a very experienced hunter,tapper, caller.
Were in the title [ predator nation] dose it imply expertise? i know i never heard him say it.
1/2 the callers in this thread have said they have used FMJ.
just saying,
[ January 07, 2011, 04:32 PM: Message edited by: George Ackley ]
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on January 07, 2011, 04:37 PM:
quote:
Fred Eichler Is anything but new to killing predators he is a very experienced hunter,tapper, caller.
Were in the title [ predator nation] dose it imply expertise? i know i never heard him say it.
1/2 the callers in this thread have said they have used FMJ.
I have to agree with Leonard,Fred dose'nt show it or talk it.
Yes I have used the FMJ, back in the day thats all we had to keep damage to a minimum, now there are much much better choices ...
Posted by Bofire (Member # 221) on January 07, 2011, 05:29 PM:
In about 1961 I saw my brother Lee, on leave from the Marine Corp., shoot a whitetail 8 times with a miltary surplus 30/06 and FMJ military ammo. in about a 4 inch group, behind the shoulder, at about 30-100 yards. It finally died.
In about 1963 I traded a winchester 25/20 for a Garand and 2000 rounds of ball ammo. (the game department made the 25/20 illegal for deer)
With soft point the rifle was fairly accurate, with the ball you could not hit a can at 50 yards.
That is all I need to know about fmj.
Carl
Posted by TundraWookie (Member # 1044) on January 07, 2011, 09:03 PM:
What's a better option for animals from 10 yards (Fox, Lynx, Coyotes) to 200 yards, to minimize fur damage? The option of a wolf or wolverine has to be killed as well if it presents itself, but fur damage on the wolf would be minimal at most any distance. Oh, the plastic tipped Vmax type bullets fall apart in the cold too, so those are out.
Thanks for the input, I'll look into all options presented.
Posted by CrossJ (Member # 884) on January 08, 2011, 06:16 AM:
Ya LB...its like the age old question, what came first, the chicken or the egg? In this case it is, what came first, the tv show or the experience?
Posted by JoeF (Member # 228) on January 08, 2011, 10:18 AM:
Tundra, would it be fair to say that you probably have snow cover for optimal tracking conditions most of the time?
Posted by JoeF (Member # 228) on January 08, 2011, 10:32 AM:
Did I ever mention how happy I am that I ditched my cable and satellite dish?
I have a young son raised under those conditions and he is anything but a social orphan.
Or a poor hunter.
I am happy that I do not know who these "celebrities" are. I have never been able to understand the whole Hollywood mystique thing. How do these folks get instant respect and set up on a pedestal?
Even the movie types. I'd like to spend some quality time with some of the Bo Derricks of the movie world; beyond that, there is no attraction.
Shucks, I even know some real-life-in-the-flesh gals that probably have a few more curves in some places and a few less in others, not quite so even a tan, but are a heck of a lot more attractive. And within reach......
Just like I like 'em!
I kept seeing all of this "Bone Collector" fluff on kids everywhere and had/have no idea what it was/is. Evidently some sort of TV show?
Ignorance is bliss.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on January 08, 2011, 11:32 AM:
George, words mean something. To me, when you call your show, PREDATOR NATION, that implies a certain degree of exclusivity and I have reason to expect also, a certain degree of experience, not lack of experience. Now, if you called your show PREDATOR NEWBIE, that conveys a degree of experience. Just using the word "predator" in the title, such as "PREDATOR QUEST" or "PREDATOR NATION" a reasonable man should expect to watch a show about predators by a man that has done it. After all, it isn't called GOOFY GOES HUNTING, or FRED THE BEGINNER LEARNS TO HUNT PREDATORS.
Yeah, I sort of expect a man with a TV show to be an experienced predator hunter, if the show is called PREDATOR NATION and it's about hunting predators. This is pretty basic stuff. The fact that he has kilt three dozen types of North American game animals does not qualify him to host a show about hunting predators. Not in my world.
Of course, if I had seen the show and realized that he was a great guy, maybe I would give him a pass?
Good hunting. LB
[ January 08, 2011, 11:35 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by GC (Member # 3718) on January 08, 2011, 01:10 PM:
I like Fred Eichler, he seems about as down to earth as they come. He isn't all caught up in trophy scores and will spend his tag on a meat buck or doe with no crying about not getting a 170" buck or whatever. I also saw his show where he was skinning his coyotes that he had just shot. Who else does that on T.V.? One thing I really appreciate is that he isn't constantly pimping every damned thing he has with him from his socks to his latest whiz-bang scent eliminator spray like so many of the T.V. personalities do. Watching Les Johnson or Steve Criner go through their practiced "pimp pitches" at every stand is more than a little tiresome. Maybe Eichler doesn't have to do that, I think he married into the family of the Muzzy Broadhead company, so there might be some financial support there that brings a little independence.
Posted by George Ackley (Member # 898) on January 08, 2011, 01:47 PM:
LB Sr,
If I said besides killing all 29 north American big game with a stick and string.
and also been trapping and predator hunting for I bet what is more then 20 some years.
besides being a accomplished lion hunter with dogs and a very highly rated Colorado outfitter that's book solid for 2 years in advance
would you say he has some experiences?
he may not be one of the big time experience caller like Mike Dillon or Glenn Guess
new bee he isn't he has done it and more.
[ January 08, 2011, 01:49 PM: Message edited by: George Ackley ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on January 08, 2011, 01:58 PM:
Good response, George.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by TundraWookie (Member # 1044) on January 08, 2011, 02:28 PM:
JoeF,
Yes, I have snow all of the time during predator season. I don't like post holing through the tundra though trying to track a wounded critter though and surely don't want to fight the machine in that terrain either. I also call near many rivers that tend to have open leads on them, that I won't go out onto. I like em' to drop on the spot up close and far away.
Posted by Nikonut (Member # 188) on January 08, 2011, 06:57 PM:
Fred Eichler owns and runs Fulldraw Outfitters of Trinidad, Colorado, one of the biggest hunting operations in the West.
http://predatornation.tv/
I watched that video again and he says, "our first coyote hunt... in Texas!" Guess I'm getting old and hard of hearing.
He could shoot a lot more critters if he didn't jump up and scream like a little girl after every shot! I still don't believe in using FMJ's for hunting and I don't think it should be promoted to newbies but to each there own.
Posted by George Ackley (Member # 898) on January 09, 2011, 07:34 AM:
There are many shows out there with what looks be old names moving to the game of calling. calling coyotes is the new hip thing right now. I do watch as many as the shows as I can because I am a big TV watcher ,last night I got to watch this kid Abner Drunkensomething
{no I cant spellhis name}
but the kid is defiantly a newer caller , he was being led around by a outfitter, taken bad shots, and also looked like he didn't know much about his gun and what havoc cold weather cold play on a gun with to much oil in he bolt and fireringpin. also if he going to take them long distance pokes at living animals he should be told to not lay his barrel on his shooting sticks , maybe move your bogpob under your fore grip .
that show was full of beginner mistakes, I did like to watch his excitement he had for the hunt and think he will be a great hunter someday.
it been I long night here in my home I sit here waiting for a call telling me my truck is done and ready to make the 16 hour run south on 95 to FLA , late last night I got a call that my close and older brother had a aneurisum in his brain and a hart attack. they life flighted him to Jacksonville and did 2 operations and have him in a induced coma.i put my mother and sister ona plain early this mornig and me and the boys ae heading down directley. all good thought would go a long way.
talk with yea later,
sorry about the spelling
[ January 09, 2011, 07:38 AM: Message edited by: George Ackley ]
Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on January 09, 2011, 07:37 AM:
Prayers sent on behalf of your brother, George.
Posted by Nikonut (Member # 188) on January 09, 2011, 08:27 AM:
Certainly prayers from here George.
Drive careful and keep us updated as you can.
Nikonut
P.S. I watched that show last night and the kid is hard to understand... not sure if that was because of the cold or his Pennsylvania accent(it was the accent)! He missed several easy shots at 100yds and when he connected he always said, "Now that's what I'm talk'n abooout!"... that got old real quick.
Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on January 09, 2011, 08:38 AM:
George;
Hope that your brother has a speedy & complete recovery.
Being a bowhunter & a 'curve shooter I can respect what this Fred guy's done with the pointed stick but I'd still rather watch Ed Wimberly. ![[Cool]](cool.gif)
Posted by Paul Melching (Member # 885) on January 09, 2011, 08:41 AM:
Thoughts and prayers for your brother George. I do hope all is well.
Posted by GC (Member # 3718) on January 09, 2011, 08:56 AM:
George,
Prayers for the family from here...
Posted by TundraWookie (Member # 1044) on January 09, 2011, 09:25 AM:
George,
Prayers sent for your entire family from the arctic.
Posted by Nikonut (Member # 188) on January 09, 2011, 09:39 AM:
Hey KoKo... I knew there was something other than Treebark camo I liked about you...
quote:
Being a bowhunter & a 'curve shooter I can respect what this Fred guy's done with the pointed stick but I'd still rather watch Ed Wimberly.
If I could ever pick one person to go on a hunt with it would be Ed Wimberly! ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on January 10, 2011, 04:28 AM:
Yeah, I could be wrong but Ed has always struck me as the real deal. Talk about what to give up; Ed carries a rifle, shooting sticks & a mouth call. Sometimes the mouth call is even one the the video sponsor se11s . And he wears an ugly hat. Says a lot about a man who wears an ugly hat. When I see some super star on a hunting show & every piece of his equiptment is brand spanking new with prominate logos I just don't trust the s.o.b.
I'll watch Ed's shows anytime; but I'd rather hunt with Catherine Zeta-Jones.
[ January 10, 2011, 04:29 AM: Message edited by: Kokopelli ]
Posted by Lone Howl (Member # 29) on January 10, 2011, 09:08 AM:
Yeah, how come a guy like Wimberly doesnt have his own show? He just naturally strikes you as a real predator hunter, (but then again, I dont think anyone knows what a "real" predator caller is now days? Pretty diluted.)
Maybe thats why, he dont need to "gear up" with all the crap. One man, one gun, one call type of guy.
Ps,Freds wife is the CEO of Muzzy. Her dad started the company I believe.
Posted by jimanaz (Member # 3689) on January 10, 2011, 11:44 PM:
My thoughts are certainly with youand yours, Big Brother George. Hope all goes well.
Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on January 12, 2011, 06:58 AM:
Big G,
Hope all is well with your brother...
Posted by George Ackley (Member # 898) on January 14, 2011, 10:06 AM:
thank for the thoughts guys
I had to com home to Philly for a day or so to take care of some stuff I thought I stop in and say thanks . I heading back down and it looks like it may be some time before I get back online to talk.
My brother was found unconscious at his home last weekendd and rushed to a local ER in saint Augustine then Life Flighted to Mayo clinic Hospital in Jacksonville, he DID NOT have a Heart Attack nor a Stroke. He has had an aneurysm. Surgeon did surgery to relieve pressure on the brain and then clamp the leak. both surgeries went flawless ,Now is just a waiting period to see if and when he wakes up . he is running a slight fever and they are trying to control it with cool down blankets .
he isn't know were near out of the woods yet ,they tell us to expect the worst and hope for the best.and it looks like its going to be a long fight, Keep the good vibes coming our way, looks like we may need them.
thank again guys
George
[ January 14, 2011, 10:09 AM: Message edited by: George Ackley ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on January 14, 2011, 10:28 AM:
You got it, George. Hoping for a full recovery.
I lost my younger sister to cancer, last year, I know how you must feel.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Nikonut (Member # 188) on January 14, 2011, 03:32 PM:
Prayers will continue from here George!
Don't forget to take care of yourself and family. Aneurysms are generally not good things so I hope the best for your brother.
Thank you for taking the time to let us know what's happening.
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