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Author
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Topic: Fred Eichler/Hornady/"Predator Nation"
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fgf4
unknown comic
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posted January 06, 2011 06:00 PM
Hey fellas...
A while back we had a discussion at another forum regarding shooting safety. I had been watching Fred Eichler on "Predator Nation" and his first attempt at hunting coyotes. The episode was sponsored by Hornady and he was using FMJ's!
That has always been a safety issue with me(especially in populated areas like Illinois), so I wrote to Hornady. I'm happy to say they have done what I consider the right thing!!! They will continue to get my praise and business.
Here is my letter and their reply:
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To: Webmaster
This is a response sent by Tom Ciambella using the feedback form on the website. The details of the message follow below:
Subject:Other
Hello Hornady!
I just watched online video of Fred Eichler on the Predator Nation show. He was using Hornady 55gr FMJ ammo to hunt coyotes. First let me say I am a big fan of Hornady ammo and I have been hunting/calling predators for a very long time. I have never, nor will I ever use FMJ ammo for hunting!!! I certainly hope you will look into this... it is promoting an unsafe situation that all sportsmen should be made aware of and discourage. Send him a box of 55grVMax,HP,or SP but please don't let him promote FMJ's for hunting!!!
Thank You, TomC
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Hornady's Reply!
From: Neil Davies
Sent: Thursday, January 06, 2011 3:53 PM
Subject:Contact from Tom Ciambella
Mr. Ciambella,
I sincerely apologize for the very delayed response.
We appreciate your input. I must convey that there are many coyote hunters that shoot coyotes with FMJ’s (not the best terminal performance choice) in order to minimize pelt damage. Mr. Eichler and I have spoken, and he is now using all V-MAX bullets for his hunts.
Thank you for taking the time to contact us.
Regards,
Neil Davies
Hornady Mfg Co.
1- 308-382-1390 ext. 263
____________________________________________________
Says a lot about Hornady... my hats off to them!
Nikonut
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TundraWookie
Knows what it's all about
Member # 1044
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posted January 06, 2011 06:17 PM
That's a professional response for sure.
I'm a FMJ user since I want minimal fur damage on fox to wolves from the same caliber. I hunt in areas where there isn't anybody in the direction I'm shooting for 100 miles typically though. If I hunted around urban areas or areas with people traffic, I'd go with a different bullet for sure.
Niko,
See if they'll get Fred into some TreeBark camo too and you'll really be onto something. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Posts: 857 | From: Alaska | Registered: Dec 2006
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TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Field Marshall, Southern Minneesota Sector
Member # 794
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posted January 06, 2011 08:14 PM
Good job Niko.
The FMJ are'nt as bad as you think and don't bouch around anymore than a heavey bullet shot from a 243 or larger, hell even a 75 gr. shot from a 223 will bounce as much..
We used to use FMJ alot back in the early 80's but stopped useing them due to the number of hunters we had in the area and due to alot of wounding done by the FMJ if you did'nt hit bone. Fox are pretty fragile and did'nt take much to kill them but a coyote could take 1-2 hits from a FMJ and just keep going..
When hunting with others we don't use anything bigger than a 243 ackley and when the ackley is used its used on a coyote that has crossed the road and is in a safe shooting area..
One time years ago I was siteing in a new 22-250 shooting 55 gr FMJ's, I just put a scope on and went out to a vacant farm that had a long driveway and set up to site the gun in. Found out I was shooting to low and could see the snow fly when the bullet bounced down the driveway towards the target.. After I got done siteing in I walked to the target and even found some of the fired bullets laying on top of the crusted snow. I think I still have some of them in a box somewhere, the point of the bullet was bent some and others looked good enough to shoot again if one wanted to..
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What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
Posts: 5064 | From: S.D. | Registered: Jan 2006
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted January 06, 2011 11:44 PM
This is my opinion. Using FMJ bullets is not a good choice in almost any hunting situation. The pelt damage reason is very much offset by losing a runner. The first consideration for me is killing the critter.
So, Hornady claims that a lot of folks are using FMJ bullets? I have to wonder if that's smart?
Tundra, what you do is your business, no offense, but asside from cripples and in spite of whatever point TA is trying to make, they sure as hell skip on down the road and out here in the dry season, they also can cause a fire.
Besides that, I have never seen a full metal jacketed bullet that was accurate. Not up to my standards, in any case.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31454 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Paul Melching
Radical Operator Forum "You won't get past the front gate"
Member # 885
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posted January 07, 2011 04:51 AM
Hornady is a good company
Eichler is an Idiot
Fmj's not my choice for anything but handgun rangeloads!
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Those who value security over liberty soon will have neither !
Posts: 4188 | From: The forest ! north of the dez. | Registered: Jul 2006
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George Ackley
Knows what it's all about
Member # 898
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posted January 07, 2011 05:48 AM
Fred Eichler is the man, i also think his shows are the best out there
Posts: 465 | From: PHILA . PA | Registered: Jul 2006
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TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Field Marshall, Southern Minneesota Sector
Member # 794
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posted January 07, 2011 06:17 AM
Point i was trying to make Leonard is most of the bullets used today will bounce as much as a FMJ depending on the angle of the shot.
I saw Fred's show once, reminded me too much of "What's his name" so I have'nt watched them since..
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What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
Posts: 5064 | From: S.D. | Registered: Jan 2006
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Paul Melching
Radical Operator Forum "You won't get past the front gate"
Member # 885
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posted January 07, 2011 08:30 AM
Yeah George hes the man ! I watched his show as he sent a 223 fmj at a coyote above him on a ridge top and missed wonder where that round went bet he doesnt know either. I like to know whats behind my target , just a personal prefrence. Ive watched some of his other shows and appreciated his enthusiasm but this show just makes me crazy.
edited for poor typing skills
[ January 07, 2011, 08:31 AM: Message edited by: Paul Melching ]
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Those who value security over liberty soon will have neither !
Posts: 4188 | From: The forest ! north of the dez. | Registered: Jul 2006
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George Ackley
Knows what it's all about
Member # 898
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posted January 07, 2011 09:40 AM
I guess we all make mistakes some times, I seen that sky lined shot and thought wow ![[Embarrassed]](redface.gif)
never the less, the guy is the real deal.
he isn't jut some TV personality , he has taken all 29 big game north American has to offer.
And aslso did using a recurve.
he ant the Mike Dillon type, being lead around the country by real predator hunters.
I have used FMJ rounds to kill predators and still do at times,and me myself don't see the problem with it. but no I wouldn't advertise it on a TV show .
but like I said this guy is as close to a everyday hunter as you can get and we all do dumb thing I guess.
sky lined shots are bad situations I agree. but the use of FMJ's is a personal option some guy make, if it not illegal then who am I to say.
[ January 07, 2011, 09:45 AM: Message edited by: George Ackley ]
Posts: 465 | From: PHILA . PA | Registered: Jul 2006
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TundraWookie
Knows what it's all about
Member # 1044
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posted January 07, 2011 09:56 AM
Leonard,
I haven't had any runoffs from FMJ's up here. My 6PPC shooting FMJ's is deadly accurate too and fires with all my snow hasn't been a concern. Our summer forest fires stay burning under the tundra and flare back up in the summers, which is always lovely. I better buy stock in FMJ's before the anti's and FMJ haters put an end to them. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Posts: 857 | From: Alaska | Registered: Dec 2006
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Lone Howl
Free Trial Platinum Member & part-time language police
Member # 29
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posted January 07, 2011 10:05 AM
I saw Freds reply on PM and respect it, but agree fmjs are a bad idea overall. He needs to realize that whatever he uses, and says it on TV, tons of guys are gonna go out and do the same cause Fred Eichler said so.
He should use his powers for good, not evil lol.
I also believe he is the real deal, average hard working hunter. He does not have the trophy rack syndrome that drives hunting nowdays, he takes what he can take most times, and doesnt care, and I really respect that about him.
He is a little sloppy when it comes to predator calling, but he genuinly enjoys it I think. I wish he would do a lot more handcalling though, jmo.
Fred, if you are reading this, use more handcalls, cause I said so lol.
Mark
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When tyranny becomes law, rebellion becomes duty.
Posts: 2083 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted January 07, 2011 10:57 AM
Hmm? Another celebrity I never heard of? Well, in my defense, I can't stand, and never watch hunting shows, or outdoor channels. One exception, I have been watching Les Johnsons show, but gads! nothing but reruns, so that's about to change.
I never had an interest in hunt shows or videos, I'd just as soon watch the History Channel or the Military Channel, or Dr Phil.
Good hunting. LB
PS
I was kidding about Dr Phil.
edit: oh, and Fred sounds a lot like Unknown....Criner, and we knew him before he got famous
[ January 07, 2011, 11:00 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31454 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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fgf4
unknown comic
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posted January 07, 2011 11:06 AM
Maybe you fellas are taking what I have said a little wrong... I certainly don't hate ANY bullet or want any made illegal.
It's just MY personal opinion that there are many safer and more ethical choices for hunting. That's the real choice we should be making as hunters... to promote safety and ethics in what we do and do that in the best manner possible.
Like Mark said, Fred has a big voice and should use it to educate new hunters and for the good of all. He is funny to watch sometimes when he gets wound up!
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted January 07, 2011 11:31 AM
Illegal? Where'd you see that?
I just think FMJ boolets are a poor choice for damned near ANY application. I can't explain why Tundra's seem to defy the laws of physics...(just kidding) but can't think of a legitimate use where another style wouldn't be a whole lot better, reduced velocities or not.
So, we have a big time famous TV hunter that uses FMJ's? Good for him. I disagree, that's my story and I'm sticking to it.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31454 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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JohnLK
Pro-Staff Great/Michigan Sector
Member # 1978
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posted January 07, 2011 11:47 AM
 Here is a pic of a Nosler 70gr B-Tip after it exited a coyote.The coyote is in the top red circle and the bullet seperated the jacket and the lead core skimmed along on top of the snow like a frisbee and curved until it stopped. It traveled about 75yds. My foot prints followed the bullets path.I was sitting by the 2 big White Pines and the coyote was about 140yds out when I shot. 
Posts: 54 | From: Michigan | Registered: Oct 2007
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Kokopelli
SENIOR DISCOUNT & Dispenser of Sage Advice
Member # 633
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posted January 07, 2011 11:56 AM
Don't remember where it was, but at least one of the states (western) that I've hunted doesn't allow FMJ for hunting. I don't use the things, so it was no big deal; much like the hi-cap magazines that aren't allowed everywhere for hunting.
Always; check the regs.
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And lo, the Light of the Trump shown upon the Darkness and the Darkness could not comprehend it.
Posts: 7578 | From: Under a wandering star | Registered: Apr 2005
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Paul Melching
Radical Operator Forum "You won't get past the front gate"
Member # 885
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posted January 07, 2011 12:18 PM
I am sure Fred is a great guy and as I said some of his shows were entertaing to watch. I just think with his position in the spotlight he could do better. he is new to predator hunting and its shows thats all. no question that he is easliy a more accomplished hunter than most including myself.I have seen him take many animals with a recurve bow and did a fine job of it. the idiot comment came from him not editing out the over the hill shot, while I like it when on occassion they show their misses that should not have been one of them it should be on the cutting room floor or the digital waste basket or?.
any fmj designed for millitary use is illeagl in Az. for hunting, but that definition is usually up to the critter cop.
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Those who value security over liberty soon will have neither !
Posts: 4188 | From: The forest ! north of the dez. | Registered: Jul 2006
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TundraWookie
Knows what it's all about
Member # 1044
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posted January 07, 2011 02:10 PM
If I was strictly going after yotees, then I'd opt for a different boolit. Being that I might have a fox or thin skinned lynx show up, means I have to have my bases on fur minimization covered on all grounds and the 80gr FMJ seems to do the trick so far. Don't even suggest a .17 TA if you're reading this, I don't want to break out the .17-225AI and wound a wolf.
[ January 07, 2011, 02:12 PM: Message edited by: TundraWookie ]
Posts: 857 | From: Alaska | Registered: Dec 2006
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted January 07, 2011 03:37 PM
I'm a little confused, as usual. You say this guy is an experienced hunter, right? But, he has a show called Predator Nation and it easy to see that he is not exactly an expert, right? So, my question would be, if he is new to predator hunting, how did he happen to get with a show called Predator Nation? Doesn't the name itself convey a certain degree of expertise insofar as hunting predators? Okay, he's a great guy, I get that. Why a show about something with which he is not very experienced? At least, some of the viewers can tell that he seems to lack a great deal of experience...which is why he uses a FMJ and the rationale is that it's to save the fur. We need to do a survey and ask how many of our members use a full metal jacket? I think it's about ONE.
Good hunting. LB
edit: and by the way, a FMJ at normal velocities can blow the hell out of a coyote, depending on how far away he is and where you hit him.
[ January 07, 2011, 03:40 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31454 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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George Ackley
Knows what it's all about
Member # 898
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posted January 07, 2011 04:28 PM
Fred Eichler Is anything but new to killing predators he is a very experienced hunter,tapper, caller.
Were in the title [ predator nation] dose it imply expertise? i know i never heard him say it.
1/2 the callers in this thread have said they have used FMJ.
just saying,
[ January 07, 2011, 04:32 PM: Message edited by: George Ackley ]
Posts: 465 | From: PHILA . PA | Registered: Jul 2006
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TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Field Marshall, Southern Minneesota Sector
Member # 794
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posted January 07, 2011 04:37 PM
quote:
Fred Eichler Is anything but new to killing predators he is a very experienced hunter,tapper, caller.
Were in the title [ predator nation] dose it imply expertise? i know i never heard him say it.
1/2 the callers in this thread have said they have used FMJ.
I have to agree with Leonard,Fred dose'nt show it or talk it.
Yes I have used the FMJ, back in the day thats all we had to keep damage to a minimum, now there are much much better choices ...
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What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
Posts: 5064 | From: S.D. | Registered: Jan 2006
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Bofire
READ MY LIPS!
Member # 221
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posted January 07, 2011 05:29 PM
In about 1961 I saw my brother Lee, on leave from the Marine Corp., shoot a whitetail 8 times with a miltary surplus 30/06 and FMJ military ammo. in about a 4 inch group, behind the shoulder, at about 30-100 yards. It finally died.
In about 1963 I traded a winchester 25/20 for a Garand and 2000 rounds of ball ammo. (the game department made the 25/20 illegal for deer)
With soft point the rifle was fairly accurate, with the ball you could not hit a can at 50 yards.
That is all I need to know about fmj.
Carl
Posts: 322 | From: Wild West | Registered: Jul 2003
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TundraWookie
Knows what it's all about
Member # 1044
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posted January 07, 2011 09:03 PM
What's a better option for animals from 10 yards (Fox, Lynx, Coyotes) to 200 yards, to minimize fur damage? The option of a wolf or wolverine has to be killed as well if it presents itself, but fur damage on the wolf would be minimal at most any distance. Oh, the plastic tipped Vmax type bullets fall apart in the cold too, so those are out.
Thanks for the input, I'll look into all options presented.
Posts: 857 | From: Alaska | Registered: Dec 2006
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CrossJ
SECOND PLACE: PAUL RYAN Look-a-like contest
Member # 884
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posted January 08, 2011 06:16 AM
Ya LB...its like the age old question, what came first, the chicken or the egg? In this case it is, what came first, the tv show or the experience?
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A friend will help you move. A good friend will help you move a body.
Posts: 1025 | From: on a water tower | Registered: Jul 2006
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JoeF
resides "back east"
Member # 228
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posted January 08, 2011 10:18 AM
Tundra, would it be fair to say that you probably have snow cover for optimal tracking conditions most of the time?
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