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#5
4949shooter
Silver Membership
Senior Member

Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: New Jersey Republik
Posts: 8,372

If the officer was going to take any type of action for his own safety he should have done so immediately, when the guy walked up on his motor vehicle stop. I would have drawn down on the guy and made him swallow a little pavement.

By following the guy and then requesting his ID, the moment of danger had already passed, and the officer no longer had concern for his safety.

I agree with the above though. The guy was a D bag and was just out looking for trouble.

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This always causes me to think of law enforcement as report takers, after somebody has been killed by a criminal. I always consider that I am the one responsible for my own safety and how in the hell can I protect myself unless I have the means?

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This statement made me recall a few facts my son just included in a term paper due in a few weeks where he has chosen Second Amendment rights for his topic. He's including a section on why anyone would want to carry a gun. Did you know that the Supreme Court has ruled that the police have no legal obligation to protect you as an individual? In fact, their obligation is to protect the public in general, but not any one individual.

Also, at any given time in this country, there are ~150,000 police officers on duty to protect 310 million people. In other words, each one of those cops is responsible for over 2,000 people.

For each of the other 1,999 people in your group, statistics show that guns are used 80 times more often for self defense than to take lives.

The presence of a handgun in the hands of a lawful gun owner is enough in nearly 98% opf encounters with attackers to thwart an otherwise dangerous situation. Furthermore, lawful gon owners discharge their weapon to harm, kill in self defense or deflect an attack in only 2% of attacks.

How about the myth that the police are better traioned to handle firearms than you and me? In truth, civilians using guns in self defense kill nearly twice as many criminals each year than do the police, and that the police were more than five times as likely to shoot an innocent person (11%) mistaken for an attacker than were legally licensed handgun owners (2%).

Just this past weekend, I was at a banquet sitting across the table from my brother who is county administrator here and I brought up the matter that the Kansas legislature is considering a bill to allow CCW carriers to carry concealed in all public buiildings heretofore considered as off limits, including courthouses and college campuses. My brother immediately lit up (career LEO) about how stupid that was to even consider such a thing. I challenegd him to find for me just one instance where a legally licenses and trained CCW carrier had shot up a public building. At the same time, I told him, I would assemble a list of instances where CCW carriers had saved the day when a criminal with a gun had started firing in a public place.

Two years ago, I was labeled by an area CO as being mentally unstable and to be considered armed and dangerous when contacted by other Wildlife & Parks LEO's simply because I disagreed with his involvement with a less than savory individual. Because I was willing to cry foul publicly, he tried to place a label on me that very effectively could have put my life in jeopardy had I had contact with another CO while hunting or any of a host of other things I do while in possession of a rifle, shotgun, or handgun.

As I have stated before, people management goes a long ways, and most new LEO's I've met fall woefully short of having enough of those skills today. Fact is, IMO, there are a lot of regular Joe's out there that have more business carrying sidearms than many of our cops do. I know that there are exceptions, but they're becoming fewer and farther between the two.
 

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Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on March 31, 2010, 08:19 PM:
 
49, I'm glad you ain't a game warden, surely by now someone would have fed you a bullet if you pulled on everyone who is legaly carrying.

The situation required attention but you failed.


 

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Posted by Andy L (Member # 642) on March 31, 2010, 08:46 PM:
 
I love it. That guy was absolutely right. Those cops were stumped, tried to lie their way into getting to check his ID, then were baffled that he called their bluff.

I dont think that was the smartest thing in the world to walk up and film a traffic stop, but he was within his rights. So good for him. I probably wouldnt have filmed it in the first place, but I would have handled the confrontation the same way. They were on a fishing expedition.

If they saw inside his ride, they would have freaked out. Ron Paul sticker. A gun. Two of the signs of a sure right wing extremist. If he, gasp, believed in god, he would be a full blown extremist and possible terrorist! At least according to lord Obama and our great Governor, Jay Nixon.

Make him eat some pavement. Bullshit. Thats a bully with a badge comment.
 

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Posted by CrossJ (Member # 884) on March 31, 2010, 09:03 PM:
 
Quit worrying about the guy with the camera, and track down the guys carrying the bat...you know, the ones who busted out Shaws window and stole our rifles!
 

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Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on April 01, 2010, 03:20 AM:
 
Leonard and Andy, that's no bully badge comment. I posted that comment on the coptalk forum of Glocktalk, and I knew it we seem out of context here. But I posted it here in the interest of HONESTY. That is how I feel and I will tell you why.

The guy went out of his way to approach the LEO on his stop. He wasn't just walking by. But what you guys need to realize is that a police officer has to have that attitude when dealing with the criminal element. This is how we stay alive, especially when alone out there and/or outnumbered. Without that attitude we become easy prey, or targets for the criminals. I have unfortunately been in a situation or two where I have been alone and have had to fight may way out of it. Having that type of attitude is what has kept me from serious harm.

Maybe you guys will understand and maybe you won't. Either way is fine with me, but you at least know why.

For the record, I have NEVER drawn down on an innocent person.

Approach me while on a stop or while I am conducting other police business when you are displaying a weapon and I will draw my own weapon. From there if you don't comply with my commands someone is gonna get proned out until I can assess the situation.

Anyone with half a brain will wait until I am done before they approach me with a weapon. This way we can have a regular conversation and I can assist people with their needs. Approaching on a traffic stop is a different story.

I am all for our second amendment rights. But we have to be smart about it.

You said it yourself Leonard...the guy deliberately provoked the cop. When he asks for the wrong attention he is eventually going to get it.

Edit for clarity.

[ April 01, 2010, 03:26 AM: Message edited by: 4949shooter ]
 

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Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on April 01, 2010, 05:31 AM:
 

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49, I'm glad you ain't a game warden, surely by now someone would have fed you a bullet if you pulled on everyone who is legaly carrying.

The situation required attention but you failed.

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I have to do whatever I need to do within legal means to come home safe to my family at the end of my shift. If that means someone has to eat some dirt then too bad. Sometimes stupidity and malicious intent get confused in the heat of the moment. We'll make the scene safe and then sort it out later

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I say, error on the side of caution, by all means, but never forget the job is to protect citizens, not fuck with them unnecessarily, just because you can make them eat dirt; because of the badge. I'm telling you that most westerners, and maybe midwesterners, and conservatives and hunters have a decidedly independant nature. While you think you are justified in humiliating an adult average citizen, that citizen is not going to be thankful and most likely, will have a sore ass for a considerable length of time.

I will give you a deserved compliment. You seem able to tolerate us ornery opinionated and independant types. I don't think the hostility is directed at you specifically, so no reason to take it personal and have hurt feelings. I think we are talking about behavior, good and bad, on both sides of the law; meaning law enforcement and the average citizen.

If you make statements, expect that you will have to defend them. I don't think too many people here are impressed (one way or the other) by the badge.

You have friends, Amigo. I give you a lot of credit for hanging in there, and it does give some of us insight into "cop think" which can't hurt, can it? But, you started it and I assume you considered that chips sometimes fall where they may?

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by Andy L (Member # 642) on April 01, 2010, 01:45 PM:
 
Dont let the bastards get you down, 49. Go right back at em or they will kick your ass everytime.

I think the video was hilarious, as I stated before. I love watchin cops look like idiots when they dont know what to do. Those guys didnt have a clue what the law really was. When camera guy questioned them, called their bluff, or whatever it was, you could tell, they wanted no part of it. They didnt know for sure if he had to show his ID and didnt know for sure what would happen if they arrested him, like being sued or fired. The camera was a way bigger threat than that gun.

Hang in there 49. Your a local now. Look at TA17. Hes been sittin himself up and gettin kicked in the nuts for years and he never quits. You dont wanna be known as a bigger puss than TA do ya?

[ April 01, 2010, 01:47 PM: Message edited by: Andy L ]
 

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Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on April 01, 2010, 01:54 PM:
 
Like I said Leonard. I was just trying to stimulate some discussion. That is what we do here, no?

I am not looking to impress anyone with my badge. Quite frankly, I could do that all day on Glocktalk if that's what I wanted. I post here because I like and respect the honesty. You guys don't kiss my ass because I'm a cop and that's just fine with me.

But I don't appreciate the "badge heavy" accusations. I am not out to humiliate anyone. The guy in the video was a jackass with something to prove. This may have gotten my ire up a bit when I posted that statement. When I calmed down I reexplained myself here but it seems to have fallen on deaf ears.

My statement may have been hasty. I will explain one more time....if I am approached on a motor vehicle stop by someone with a weapon, or anyone else for that matter, my guard will be up. Just in the event the person approaching is a compatriot of the person in the vehicle I have stopped I need to be ready. If I see a weapon, my own weapon will come out of its holster. Okay, if I am in an open carry state and it looks like mom and pop coming up to me for directions I can evaluate same and deescalate as appropriate. But if I see a weapon or suspect malice, my weapon will be drawn and if the person does not obey my commands at this point they will be proned out, or "eating some pavement."

This is a safety consideration and I make no apology for it.

Yes, cops can be control freaks. It is something that comes with the territory, as I think you once said. We have to control each and every situation we are in. When we lose control we are in danger. There is a training video of a Texas constable who was killed in the line of duty back in the eighties by some drug runners. The video shows that he did not maintain control of his stop, and the three individuals overcame him and killed him with his own weapon. I admit I am a bit of a control freak. I don't know if I was this way before the job or if the job made me this way. But I can say experience has taught me that control is a good thing in police work.

There is a considerable rift here at Huntmasters. You guys are sort of a bunch of rebels who speak your mind. I like that, and I do respect it.

But respect is a two way street. At least it is in my book.
 

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Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on April 01, 2010, 01:59 PM:
 

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think the video was hilarious, as I stated before. I love watchin cops look like idiots when they dont know what to do. Those guys didnt have a clue what the law really was. When camera guy questioned them, called their bluff, or whatever it was, you could tell, they wanted no part of it. They didnt know for sure if he had to show his ID and didnt know for sure what would happen if they arrested him, like being sued or fired. The camera was a way bigger threat than that gun.

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In Kansas (I don't know about anywhere else), an LEO has the right to request ID from anyone he or she comes into contact with and failure to provide that ID upon request can result in failure to comply with a police officer's request charges.

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[ April 01, 2010, 07:58 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
 

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Posted by Bopeye (Member # 907) on April 01, 2010, 08:16 PM:
 
I do know if I had been that officer, I wouldn't want him behind me. Cop messed up there.

I am NOT a police officer, but I do know that was one of those things I won't allow.

Nobody interferes with me when I am doing my job. Don't give a damn who they are.
If I'm doing my job as a lowly ole supervisor and some guy I don't know comes walking up directly towards me with a camera and a gun on his hip, I will assure you that my gun will no longer be concealed. That's where the LEO failed to take control of the situation. Hesitation can and will get you hurt.
The cop was pretty pathetic on his knowledge of the law, but dipshit with the camera deliberately provoked him which in my opinion was equally stupid.

Here in my little town in Tennessee (the patron saint of shoot shit up) that just doesn't fly at all. Too many meth heads willing to knock you over the head for 10 bucks to let that kinda shit fly.

I have both my pistols with me almost constantly, but they stay out of site. Partly to keep incidents like this dumbass video to a minimun, but mostly I don't want a person to know I am carrying until it's too late......for them.

That video is a good example of what happens when two dumbasses are together in tight quarters.
 

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Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on April 01, 2010, 08:20 PM:
 
So 49, which is higher, the number of cops killed or civilians?

You don't have to answer that, just don't forget we all live in the same world and face the same delima. You guys just get paid for it.

PS, just got your PM on NPHA, I don't get over there much.
 

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Posted by Bofire (Member # 221) on April 01, 2010, 08:33 PM:
 
never said a word about you or what kinda anything you are.
I disagree with your assessment of the situation, already said the video guy was an idiot, he did not realize he was prey, those guys were waiting for the cause to make a pinch. video guy did not give them the reason.
as for presenting ones weapon in a situation, innocent, guilty, none of that enters your mind and should not.
Too bad there was not another view to see what the video guy was doing.
 

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Posted by TundraWookie (Member # 1044) on April 01, 2010, 09:27 PM:
 
The guy was obviously trying to prove a point, which he did.

Point 1: He's an absolute idiot.

Point 2: The cop doesn't know the laws within his jurisdiction.
 

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Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on April 02, 2010, 03:05 AM:
 
Tundra and Bopeye, I agree 100%.

Tom, I figured as much about the PM. Thanks. There are more civilians murdered, because there are many more civilians than police officers out there. Non LEO's need to protect themselves equally I agree. I just believe people should be smart about it.

Here is the comment I posted on Youtube:

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4949shooter Very bad idea walking up on a police officer who is on a traffic stop. REALLY bad idea doing it with an exposed weapon.

This type of stunt unfortunately sets the wrong example for others to follow.

Use common sense out there folks.

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I disagree with your assessment of the situation, already said the video guy was an idiot, he did not realize he was prey, those guys were waiting for the cause to make a pinch. video guy did not give them the reason.

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In my assessment (even the two posts I made on glocktalk), I indicated that the officers were wrong for following the guy with the camera. Once he backed off from the officer and walked away the threat was over. The officer should have cut his losses, realized no one was hurt, and continued his patrol. As was stated a few times above, the time for the officer to take action was when the guy was approaching him. This is when the threat (real or perceived) was at the highest level. Yes, they didn't like to be filmed and they were looking to cite the guy for something. I think they would have but the guy was smart enough to know where he stood with the law.

No LEO likes to be approached on stops. It is distracting for the officer and puts everyone including the people approaching in potential danger. I have been in the process of arresting people and and have had people walk up to me and try to ask me for directions. Unbelievable! But it happened all the time. I guess when people are lost they are in a panic and don't think.

I reiterate though...put me in a threatened situation with a weapon, refuse to obey my commands, and someone is gonna "eat pavement."
 

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Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on April 02, 2010, 04:28 AM:
 
One more thing I think I should mention.

I never used terminology like "eat pavement" or "eat dirt" when a supervised my squad. These were young guys, and I never wanted to put them in the wrong frame of mind when I was mentoring them. I always stressed treating people with respect.

These catch phrases are meant for more seasoned individuals who I know understand the context in which they are intended, as well as internet forums. The forums wouldn't be any fun if there were no controversy, right?
 

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Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on April 02, 2010, 05:31 AM:
 
Now you're catching on.

I still have to ask, if the guy ignored your "commands" without making any move for his weapon, would you shoot him? What if he just backed off without a taste of pavement?
 

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Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on April 02, 2010, 05:56 AM:
 
That's good question Tom. If he wouldn't have proned out, I would have immediately gone into "high alert."

No police officer would have been justified in shooting the man unless he made a move for a weapon, either the weapon in view or a seperate weapon from concealment.

The danger has to be imminent in order to use deadly force.
 

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Posted by Andy L (Member # 642) on April 02, 2010, 06:58 AM:
 
I know if you are smart you wouldnt shoot. Especially if he still had that camera on. That is a good question. You feel threatened enough to draw your weapon and tell him to eat pavement, but he refuses and walks away. You cant shoot a fleeing man.
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on April 02, 2010, 07:58 AM:
 
I have held off long enough, and can't stand it anymore. I was toting a badge and gun back in 1970's when we could still shoot fleeing felon's. If we saw someone breaking in to a building and he ran from us, we could shoot him. Those were the days. Can't remember for certain, but I believe it was 1975 when Iowa changed that portion of the fleeing felon law. The next thing I need to tell you is that NO man, not even a Lawman knows for sure what he would do in any given situation until that situation actually happens to him. When a Lawman is forced to shoot, he has but a split second to make that decision in most cases. A Jury has months, and sometimes YEARS to decide whether or not that decision was correct.
 

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Posted by Andy L (Member # 642) on April 02, 2010, 08:13 AM:
 
Rich, thats the most intelligent thing said.

No one, not just cops, know what they will do when facing the elephant, until they face the elephant. The tough talker may freeze. The mild may kill. There is no other stress test that can prepare you.

I dont ever want to know.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on April 02, 2010, 08:49 AM:
 
I did a paper in college, years ago on police officer behavior. It was amazing how often the phrase; "reaching for his waistband" was invoked, and how often it was accepted as justified. I hate the idea of receiving a double tap, just because I'm practically deaf.

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by Andy L (Member # 642) on April 02, 2010, 08:54 AM:
 
A lot of these young punks now days will die if thats the case. They cant seem to keep their pants up and are constantly grabbin for their waistband.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on April 02, 2010, 09:13 AM:
 
This event happened not long ago. There I was, very busy afternoon in the parking lotat the supermarket, looking for a parking place.

I saw an empty spot ahead and swung out and as it was a right turn, I couldn't see that there was a cop standing in the open, taking to somebody with his window down in the vehicle that I was partially behind.

So, this guy just stood there, and some woman was right on my ass and I couldn't back up. He ignored me so I gave him a meek little bump on the horn. (it's a wonder he didn't have me eat pavement right then and there?)

He could have moved closer to the vehicle, but he didn't. I shrugged, and looked at him with an expression like; hey, why are you blocking the only empty parking spot in the whole lot and he told me to move on.

So, I said why, are you going to arrest me? And, he said; "It's a possibility"

I said: ASSHOLE!, and backed out, and drove around some more. It was long enough that I never saw him again, but by the time I walked to the front of the store, the spot was filled, and now I saw that his cruiser was parked a few spaces down. I think he was in the Card Shop next to the market, there might have been some disturbance, who knows? But, my impression was that he was an arrogant fucking cop. I'm sure he thought the same of me, but he could have had his discusion by moving forward and closer to the front quarter panel. But noooo! This dick needed a whole parking place to display his "command presence".

I admit it; I think they are basically control freaks. They live a very isolated existance, their only friends are other cops and they love pulling double shifts, especially at night where all the action is. There I go stereotyping, again. Bad Leonard!

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by Bofire (Member # 221) on April 02, 2010, 09:39 AM:
 
Yep, Rich is correct again.
In the video neither officer ever goes into a defensive posture, no up on toes, no knees bent, no arms extended, no head forward squaring up to the video guy. I don't think the first officer ever released his keeper strap. Kinda made me wonder if there is a history there, if they knew each other or had prior contacts.
I think phrases like "eat dirt" make professional Police Officers sound like stupid red-necks.
I have no beef with 4949, just my opinion.
Carl
 

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Posted by Andy L (Member # 642) on April 02, 2010, 09:55 AM:
 
Hey Tom, lets go register on Glock Talk. I bet we can make some friends there.

Its pretty easy to push some cops buttons and there seems to be plenty of egos there. Could be fun.
 

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Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on April 02, 2010, 10:09 AM:
 
Andy, you and Tom will be banned off glocktalk in a month!

Throw Leonard into the mix and that time frame goes down to two weeks. LOL!

I would love to see you three on GT. Holy Smokes!!
 

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Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on April 02, 2010, 10:15 AM:
 
Andy, that would be a blast! But unfortnately I get to deal with enough cops as it is. My town has a college LE program and the CLEET center here. I've seen enough crap to make even 49 be ashamed. I once fixed a cops AR because he was stupid when he broke it and stupider when he "fixed" it. Which left the barrel nut loose and he was complaing about only being able to make head shots a 25 yards or so.

I knew the answer to my question but my intent was to start the thinking process. If your "command" to eat pavement given to someone who hasn't broken any law is merely a request, then how justified are you at pulling your sidearm?

Being in charge of the situation doesn't mean you have to force anyone into submission until you figure out what's going on. That's how things escalate way out of control.

And the point is to always be in control isn't it?
 

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Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on April 02, 2010, 10:16 AM:
 
Bofire, I must admit that phrase should be kept within the station house. I shouldn't have used it on the forum. "Prone out" would have been a more professional term to use. Usually I try and keep it professional on the forums because I know everyone is listening. Every once in a long while I get emotional and use somw terminology I shouldn't.

On the other hand, I feel I can be honest with my (friends?) here at huntmasters. These guys are brutally honest with me and I don't see why I should be on my best behavior here.

Rich,

Would you believe the use of force policy they make us read every 6 months still says we can shoot escaping felons? We read it then they tell us we cannot do so unless the felon puts someone in imminent fear of death or bodily injury, so the policy reverts back to our basic policy anyway.

Strange. I don't now why they just don't take it out completely.
 

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Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on April 02, 2010, 10:18 AM:
 
Tom I will get back to you later for more discussion on this. Unfortunately I have some things to do in the yard since the weather here is good.

Nick
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on April 02, 2010, 10:25 AM:
 
I'd only do it if I could fake being one of them. I need to brush up on cop speak, maybe learn a few code violations by the number? I'm going 51/50.

My brother-in law, a Lieutenant with Los Angeles Sheriff's Department, since retired. I never saw somebody more arrogant, more of a sense of entitlement, and he felt the laws didn't apply to him. Terrible driver, game law violations; etc. show his badge and he was on his way, man he was a real dickhead. Since divorced, lives in Texas, now. High rate of divorce, everybody knows that.

Police, out here generally hate the California Highway Patrol because they don't honor professional courtesy. Imagine? They have to obey traffic laws, on the freeway! How chickenshit!



Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on April 02, 2010, 12:20 PM:
 
ANDY DOESN'T LIKE HIS TITLE. Is there anybody out there willing to trade with him?

Thanks, LB
 

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Posted by tlbradford (Member # 1232) on April 02, 2010, 12:27 PM:
 
I pretty much agree with Leonard on everything he has posted here on the situation.

Lance, law enforcement can request whatever the hell they want, but you are not required to comply. Same as if they are at the door and ask if they can come in. Any attorney would have a field day with a forced request.

Another pet peeve of mine is that we just can't call patrolman "cops" anymore. They are always officers. Constable on Patrol is every bit as respectful as Law Enforcement Officer. If you are a puke in the army until you earn a commission, why in the hell should a rookie out of the academy get to be caled an officer without earning jack shit?
 

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Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on April 02, 2010, 12:34 PM:
 
That's because "officer" is his professional title.

The same way I am being called to task here for not using professional terminology, this should apply to everyone else here as well.

Edit: spelling

[ April 02, 2010, 12:34 PM: Message edited by: 4949shooter ]
 

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Posted by Dan Carey (Member # 987) on April 02, 2010, 12:34 PM:
 
"I was toting a badge and gun back in 1970's when we could still shoot fleeing felon's"

We've come a long way.
Now the cops can't shoot us and claim we were a felon.
If we could just rid ourselves of the cops on the take, the cops with a chip on their shoulder, on and on. I wouldn't have to pack a gun!!
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on April 02, 2010, 12:44 PM:
 
Man, we got some real attitude cases lurking in the bushes!

I know one thing, 100% of those "officers" wouldn't trade careers with anybody, at any price. What does that tell you?

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on April 02, 2010, 12:51 PM:
 

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I knew the answer to my question but my intent was to start the thinking process. If your "command" to eat pavement given to someone who hasn't broken any law is merely a request, then how justified are you at pulling your sidearm?

Being in charge of the situation doesn't mean you have to force anyone into submission until you figure out what's going on. That's how things escalate way out of control.

And the point is to always be in control isn't it?

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I have no clue where I'm going but I'm trying to stay with the video idiot and your comment about making him eat pavement. But who knows I may have veered off in any direction.

My point is the guy complied with the officers request to step back.

He presented no threat since he was legaly carrying, no matter how wrong this strikes you, he never went for his gun.

He never gave any intent other than to keep everyone recorded in this situation. maybe his GF was being harrassed for her phone number?

All in all, the guy was in the wrong but I still don't get why you'd feed him asphalt, given the evidence filmed.

No law against being stupid and he followed the law.

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Tom, let me interject that I was a little hasty in making that statement, and I left out a step. I wouldn't prone the guy out immediately. If he hadn't obeyed my command to back away, or any other lawful command I gave him, then and only then would I have proned him out.

I stated earlier that each situation is different, and thus will play out differently. I think Rich alluded to this also. Being there and talking about it on the internet are two different things. Sometimes reality gets lost in the shuffle as we discuss incidents via keyboards.
 

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Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on April 02, 2010, 03:25 PM:
 
4-10 49

hey this could be fun!
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on April 02, 2010, 03:50 PM:
 
"We've come a long way.
Now the cops can't shoot us and claim we were a felon."
----------------------------------
Know something Dan? You are even more stupid than you look.
 

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Posted by Dan Carey (Member # 987) on April 02, 2010, 05:15 PM:
 
Maybe so, but you have never heard me say something as asinine as a friggin cop shoot a kid that stole a car as a fleeing felon, just because grand theft is a felony.

When it comes to stupidity you are in the running for a trophy. Find someone else to play with, you are not in my league.
 

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Posted by Okanagan (Member # 870) on April 02, 2010, 07:11 PM:
 
4949, I don't know why you would be banned. This isn't GlockTalk. You've dug a bit of a hole and reinforced most of our impressions of LEO's, but that is your privilege and educational to all of us.

I'll share a story of police control:

On a curving highway a motorcycle passed me fast and tight on a curve to the left. When he swerved back into the right lane he could not straighten out the bike and skidded straight into a scree slope and rock cliff on the right. The bike, driver and passenger behind him all flipped high into the air: bike lowest, driver next and due to leverage, the girl on the back launched higher than the telephone pole beside her. She slammed head down into melon sized rocks with her body vertical and arms beside her body.

I thought she had a broken neck or spine with that impact, and as I knelt beside her she went into a seizure, eyes rolled back, convulsive shaking. She did that three times before a doctor stopped at the same time a police officer arrived. As the doc examined her, I started describing the seizures, impact and likihood of spinal injury. The officer glared at me and barked, "Nobody talks but the doctor!" I shut up but stayed there thinking that if they tried to move the injured girl, I would risk jail to protect her spine. The officer stayed quite awhile, glaring at me as if daring me to speak. When he finally walked away, I told the doc the girl's history from impact to his arrival. The doc whispered back, obviously cowed by the officer but very grateful for the info.

[ April 02, 2010, 07:27 PM: Message edited by: Okanagan ]
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on April 02, 2010, 07:27 PM:
 
Dan, we got a 27-3/Bravo on your ass. Don't make me do it, son!

49er doesn't scare off, I'll say that for him. I hope he doesn't take these L.E. criticisms personal because that's not the case. I think he doesn't quite fit the stereotype. He's a predator hunter and probably knows a hell of a lot more about guns than 99% of police officers.

Good hunting. LB

edit: okay, 95% forgot about Cronk

[ April 02, 2010, 07:28 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
 

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Posted by Okanagan (Member # 870) on April 02, 2010, 07:29 PM:
 
Yep, 4949 is a cut above. He is getting out amongst regular folks who are neither felons nor police, and that's healthy.
 

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Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on April 02, 2010, 07:34 PM:
 
That's critically important information to on-scene medical staff. You should have spoke up. I was on duty with a sheriff's unit one night when one of the state troopers in the area got into a high speed chase. His supervisor was along that night on a ride along, so it was special for him. The guy ran all over hell through yards and up and down alleys and streets in excess of 80 mph at times in his car before losing control and nosing into a creek bank. The troopers pulled him out of the car and when my unit got there, they had the driver out, on his knees and handcuffed behind his back with spotlights and maglights trained on him. This town was where I was a Fire Captain with FD at the time and all my dept EMT first Responders were standing around waiting for permission to approach the patient. I asked them what they were doing, knowing they'd been there for several minutes and they said the hiped up troop refused to let them check the guy out. I walked over to his supervisor, identified myself as a deputy (I was in uniform) and as a medic and asked him if it was okay for me to evaluate the medical condition of his prisoner, or would he prefer to assume the full liability for him and his injuries all on his own. The prisoner was disoriented with an obvious head injury and I advised the trooper his prisoner was considered code red until a doctor in the Trauma unit ruled out serious injuries. I was so pissed at my medics on FD for not doing their job that it must have shown because the supervisor was more than happy to let me initiate care for the guy.

The point is this - cops aren't medics. Accident scenes like that force them to deal with the accident, scene control, traffic, paperwork and, until EMS gets there, the injured. Anything involving real live and injured people is beyond the scope of their training and even they get a little hinky. Sometimes, if you have the experience and training, you have to get in their face a bit and do what you need to do. If you lack the training but know the right thing to do, you err on the side of the wounded and worry about your own ass later. There have been many times when I first responded to an accident or medical emergency in street clothes, even overalls and a sleeveless old T-shirt, and just by the look on my face and the way I carried myself, the crowd parted like the Red Sea to let me take something they wanted nothing to do with. I'd cut that cop some slack as he was probably just as scared for what had happened as you were. Seen it a lot.
 

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Posted by Okanagan (Member # 870) on April 02, 2010, 10:05 PM:
 
Cdog911, you are absolutely right. I have always felt that I let that girl down, even though it turned out OK. It could have been terrible.

At least one crux of this discussion is how a citizen communicates with a mis-informed/over controlling/offbase/overzealous/overreacting officer. In your situation you had authority and were used to dealing with officers. Most of us have neither in the impromptu situations where we encounter police.

[ April 02, 2010, 10:07 PM: Message edited by: Okanagan ]
 

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Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on April 03, 2010, 04:00 AM:
 
Okanagan,

You seem like a nice guy around here so please don't take my response as being confrontational or anything. I was only joking about being banned, because I was telling some true stories and I know how you guys are with control and all. Dug myself into a hole? I don't think so. The fact is, whether or not some of you guys approve of my attitude, I am not changing to please anyone. I have already explained that my attitude has kept me from serious harm on this type of job. Rich and Cdog (and maybe the Hunted One?)can verify that the public can sense weakness, especially the criminal element type. Show weakness and the criminal will be emboldened. Take control and show an "eat some pavement motherfucker" attitude and you keep people that wish to do you harm at bay. Crimnals are basically like a animals, they like to prey on the weak. Just like Maurice Clemmons walked into that coffee shop when those four officers (RIP sister and brothers) were having roll call and killed them when they were off guard having their morning coffee before patrol. Do you think he would have taken four cops on when he was alone and they had their guard up on a traffic stop? Make it easy for the criminal and he will take advantage of it.

America needs cops and soldiers with type A personalities. In these days of political correctness, police agencies have begun to hire some type B personalities. They now want kinder, gentler cops. But these types are a liability out there. We have to keep an eye on them, give them easier details and such. It drains our manpower. And to be honest, I don't want to be backed up on a hot call by a type B.

Okanagan, I may have used some station house lingo on the forum here and on glocktalk. I could have been more professional and I like to think I am man enough to admit my mistakes. But the attitude stays and like I said before I make no apology for it. You guys might not like the attitude or me but that's just the way I am. If Leonard deems that I am not welcome here at any time then all he needs to do is say the word and I will respect his wishes and depart.

I am no stranger to going against the grain Okanagan. I do it all the time on the board of directors for a football league I serve on, and have gone against the grain at my kids' school board also.

But you guys are correct. Every place I go I don't fit the mold. To be completely honest, I don't fit the mold at my law enforcement agency either. I am somewhat "different" than many of the guys I work with. But the difference is at work I am am evaluated by my peers for the type of police officer I am, and not so much by my personality, if that makes any sense to anyone. I have talked about this in depth with my wife, because I don't follow the norms of the people who live in our neighborhood. She understands I am somewhat of an outcaste, at work and in our community. It kills her sometimes because she wants to be invited to all the stupid parties and such. But man, I just have nothing in common with those people. I could care less about that stuff.

Okay maybe that's too much information. But I have been arguing with you guys enough times now to let you in on some secrets.

Sometimes cops do have lousy attitudes Okanagan. I know I have had bad days in my career, and have said and done the wrong thing at times. I guess it just makes me human. When you put a uniform on people expect you to be perfect, you know?

Anyhow, if you or some of the guys here choose not to like me or my cop attitude then I am okay with that. But it's who I am, and I am not changing or apologizing for it.

Thanks for listening.
 

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Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on April 03, 2010, 06:00 AM:
 
"When you put a uniform on people expect you to be perfect, you know?"

Na, just professional, if they expect anything. Being a cop doesn't change the fact that you're human, you'd be the same person, personality wise, without the badge. The attitude gathered by the badge and the gun some gather, only feeds the monster inside but the monster is still there.

We all should work at earning respect from one another instead of expecting it from our positions. (Now that goes for everyone so don't go gettin all Barney Fife on me now.)

edited for spelling

[ April 03, 2010, 06:01 AM: Message edited by: TOM64 ]
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on April 03, 2010, 06:34 AM:
 
"When it comes to stupidity you are in the running for a trophy. Find someone else to play with, you are not in my league."
----------------------------
I didn't start this, YOU did. You wouldn't make a pimple on my ass Dan. I think Leonard should change your title to "Panty Waste". I don't know of any Lawman who would shoot a KID for stealing a car, but then I wouldn't expect a moron like you to understand.
 

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Posted by Dan Carey (Member # 987) on April 03, 2010, 08:49 AM:
 
revetahW
 

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Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on April 03, 2010, 03:39 PM:
 
Well gents it seems the board on my laptop took a dive. I am typing on my son's computer right now.

So....if I am not around much for a spell this is the reason why.

I don't want you guys to think you ran me off or anything.

Thanks,

49
 

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Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on April 03, 2010, 05:19 PM:
 
49,

You make some valid points there that have caused me to think a bit. I thought I would share a few of them with these guys in hopes that I can convey what I have concluded from these remarks.

Whether you're a cop on patrol, a combat soldier, or a street medic in a bad situation, you have to carry yourself a certain way. It's a matter of how the public perceives you, and how you perceive yourself in that moment in time. This thread has caused me to go back to a place that I've allowed myself to go to only a couple times since leaving EMS for good about 8 years ago. When I first started with the Postal Service, the question arose: What's the worst thing you ever saw? for a career medic or cop, that's as tough a question and as inappropriate a question as what any civilian with a modicum of sensitivity would ask a combat veteran.

I volunteered a couple not-so-bad examples involving people not from here to satisfy their curiosity, but with each question, and each answer, I spent the remainder of that day and that night going back through memories of trauma calls, code blues, and violence. Once I'd left the Service, the mechanisms we'd been taught and trained to use to protect ourselves - that ever annoying swagger, if you will - began to fail, and the memories started seeping through. I once transported a retired firefighter who'd had a heart attack to a cardiac care unit 80 miles away. We got to talking about being firefighters and medics and he asked me if I'd begun seeing the faces in my dreams yet. I didn't fully appreciate his inquiry until after I'd left the Service. Today, I have the answer to that question and it isn't a good feeling.

I've worked code blues and done CPR on SIDS babies with wailing parents over my shoulder. I ran a code, all by myself, intubation, IV's and defibrillating (shocks) on a very dear friend of mine that I'd worked with for years with his wife over my shoulder crying and pleading with me to save him. I've climbed inside cars in the middle of an interstate highway and started IV's on a patient entrapped and hanging upside down while the roar of the jaws of life and spreaders were disassembling the car around me. I've rapid evac'ed burn patients whose skin was peeling off in palm sized sheets and when I went to clear a site for an IV, saw the skin roll back literally exposing the veins to sight. I've watched people go from talking to me to dead in a matter of seconds and then brought them back while flying down city streets to the ER. I've delivered babies in bathroom showers and held the hand of dying people because their DNR orders told me to do so and they had no one else to be with them at that crucial moment. I've had some of the most incredible experiences of my life, saving lives, and doing things with less than a moment's notice that I never, ever thought I would be capable of doing, and I've seen some of the most horrific things you can imagine - the types of things that real people in a real world can and will do to one another.

And, I've seen heroic actions by those around me. I once got on scene where my own brother had been the first to arrive while on patrol a 2 year old was pinned between the front seat and the dash of a pickup that had crashed and rolled, killing the child's father. The little boy was hanging upside down and rescue was too far out. Gas was spilling onto the pavement and the little boy was screaming. My brother unloaded his duty weapon - a S&W model 686 .357 - and used the four inch barrel as a prybar to separate the space enough to pull the boy free. In doing so, he bent that barrel nearly forty degrees.

I watched another deputy ladder the second floor of house whose first floor was fully engulfed in flames and go up that ladder through impenetrable black smoke and grab four kids and take them to safety before helping mom out and down.

the kinds of guys that can do this stuff and keep doing it day after day are of a special breed. I spent the last six years of my career training medics fresh out of school and the first things I told them was that every call is unique. No one can prepare you for everything you will see out there, so you have to be fast on your feet. at times, you'll feel very overwhelmed, but you have to act like you're in total control at all times. People call 911 only after they've done everything they know to do and the situation has overwhelmed them. They're out of control and they expect you to fix things as soon as you get there. Sometimes, as the cop or the medic, you're as ass deep in it as they are, but you can't let it show. That's the swagger. That's the overconfidence. That's how you keep going on because it's a really shitty world out there sometimes, and somebody has to be willing to go running in while everyone else is running out. I've come out of calls where the family held me up as a hero when, in truth, I was acred to death, nothing went as I'd anticipated it would, we lost the patient, and still, the family and bystanders perceived us as being in control and came away knowing in their hearts that we'd done evrything we could.

I also know what 49 means when he tells of the social restrictions in the field. I've been out for most of 8 years now and my wife and I are still loners in the social circles. Outsiders just don't get it.
 

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Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on April 03, 2010, 06:29 PM:
 
Cdog,

Your post really hits home.

There isn't much more I can say, other than I feel your pain Brother.
 

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Posted by yuccabush (Member # 582) on April 04, 2010, 02:58 PM:
 
I'm glad those officers did not end up doing anything. We have had numerous officers that took the option of making the subject eat dirt. All those incidents ended up costing the taxpayer in lawsuit payoffs. It is legal to open carry here in NM. And no those cops did not have any right at all to see the mans ID.
 

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Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on April 04, 2010, 03:29 PM:
 
I'm curious..............if the 'Make him eat dirt' option is taken; then what??? He gets charged with 'suspicion of being a suspicious charactor'? Maybe a little weed is 'found' on him?? Or does he get his sidearm back & told to have a nice day???
 

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Posted by tlbradford (Member # 1232) on April 04, 2010, 04:15 PM:
 
4949...For what its worth my rant was just a rant on PC crap in general, and folks expecting respect rather than earning it.

I found no problem with your scenario in telling someone to "eat pavement" if they did not comply with an order to back-off. You need to do your job. Maybe it was slang that sounds disrespectful to some, but I have never known the HM crowd to care for being politically correct.

Like several others on here, I believe the man should not have been pursued after the fact.
 

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Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on April 04, 2010, 04:50 PM:
 

quote:

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I'm curious..............if the 'Make him eat dirt' option is taken; then what??? He gets charged with 'suspicion of being a suspicious charactor'? Maybe a little weed is 'found' on him?? Or does he get his sidearm back & told to have a nice day???

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