|
Author
|
Topic: Brass
|
TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Southern Minneesota Know it all
Member # 794
|
posted November 04, 2024 07:48 AM
Messing around with different brass today. I noticed with a good eye you can just look at the head stamp on a cartridge and have rough idea of what type of brass you have. The harder brass will have deep clear lettering like Rem., Federal, Hornady and after first firing it still stays pretty clear.
Win. brass kind of falls in between them and the softer brass like Lapua and Nosler. another way to check brass is with a mouth chamfer tool or case trimmer you will feel and see little difference here as well. Most companies punch in the flash hole and some drill it in or punch and then deburr the inside of flash hole to get rid of that little burr on inside. They have a tool so you can do it yourself if you use the more common and harder brass, no big deal. Lapua tends to keep track of the lots they make and number them to help keep things uniform and I think Nosler is starting to do same.
The bigger case you go this becomes less critical. The 223 size cases is when things need to be more perfect if you want to get all accuracy out of a certain brand of case. Powder charges have to be more precise compared to bigger case, so you don't overload it. Take a 22-250 for example you can be a full 1.0 grain higher in charge and it don't make much of a difference in performance of your load that's why you can get buy reloading it with just a powder dipper or powder dispenser. Take the same 1.0 grain and it can put you over the top pretty easy on one of the 223 family type cases.
When looking for pressure signs the soft brass will give it away by just looking at the primer and head stamp, the hard brass you will just have to pay attention to primer or measure the web area on each case. Softer brass will reach full form sooner than the harder brass if you say using it for a improved cartridge.
Harder brass can get a bulge in web area and much harder to get out when you full length resize and you either put up with a stiff chambering or just toss the stuff. Reason why I won't pick up range brass or use brass from another gun with same cartridge. pistol cases don't apply.
Soft brass just easier to work with but you can get same accuracy with the harder brass.
if making a wild cat cartridge it don't matter how soft or hard brass is you will need to anneal the necks depending on how far the neck is sized down. Both can and will crack after few loadings.
Alot also depends on how you set up your sizing dies and how high you load a given cartridge, but you need to look for that ring around the web area of the case as well and it don't matter what brass you use here. You noticed a shiny ring in web area after 5 firings its time to toss the crap and start over. you can run a piece of wire along inside of case and feel for that ring as well it just tells you the brass has stretched, and this area is getting thin. Not good when you out hunting with a case that's been reloaded 5 times and you fire it and then pull bolt back and only thing that comes out is the case head. a pistol cleaning rod with big enough brush to be forced up into chamber can get rest of cartridge out.
Yeah I know some don't load their cartridges that stiff and back off too far from safe max. load in a manual which is fine but then what do you got? You got a big case burning a bunch of powder and it performs like a smaller cartridge that uses less powder so what do you gain.
The reloading companies that put out a manual give a max. load which should be safe in most any up-to-date firearms so use it.
Go run your loads through a chrono and you will find the loads listed in manual fall a little short, reason being its a safe load for most guns.
I don't think I have ever had a bad load listed as max. from a reloading manual.
But one thing to keep in mind when you see a list of powders for a load and you see they only show one or two powders that only show 3 loadings for and then stop as they reached max., those are the powders you want to stay away from for that cartridge. I call that a sensitive load.
Sure some guns shoot better if you drop the load about a grain of powder which is fine but if higher end loads shoots under a half Ill use it over a reduced load.
Yes you still need to work up a load due to weather conditions you plan to hunt in or Temp's, elevation ect. just to make sure its safe.
--------------------
What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
Posts: 5614 | From: S.D. | Registered: Jan 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
|
posted November 04, 2024 12:33 PM
I'm a little confused trying to follow along?
Soft brass is a vague description. I think they have a test called Brinnell or something like that? I'm not al all sure if that is a measurable standard to determine serviceability as to the number of reloads you can get from a specific case/cartridge.
The term you are talking about is "Incipient Case head separation" and that's primarily due to incorrect headspacing.
Almost all cartridge cases will have some "flashing" inside on the primer pocket that I routinely chamfer with a special tool that uses the primer hole to act as a pivot point and then to cut whatever is, or might be interfering with the ignition of the primer. Although this is kind? of an anal deliberation but it's consistent with cartridge case uniformity, in general, such as neck turning and reaming, and trimming to length.
Excessive pressure, the first signs are flattened primers and something I pay a lot of attention to. Cratered primer indents are an even more serious sign of excessive pressure and these signs will show up much before any indications you might see in the case itself, that bright ring you mentioned might be a danger sign and the usual check is to feel inside with a sharpened and straightened paperclip tp feel inside that the case might be in danger of splitting and separating? There again, you might be looking at bad gunsmithing rather than "soft" brass.
The various formulations used in manufacturing cartridge brass, more tin, less copper or whatever the formula a specific maker chooses to use does not tell me that the brass product is unsuitable for the job, all will withstand 55M PSI and usually well into the 60's. The weak link is the primer and that will show excessive pressure indications long before the actual case fails and that's due most likely to machining errors on setting head space.
That's all I got, what exactly are you getting at?
Your point?
Good hunting. El Bee
--------------------
EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32361 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Kokopelli
SENIOR DISCOUNT & Dispenser of Sage Advice
Member # 633
|
posted November 04, 2024 01:10 PM
Actually ........ Copper and tin make bronze. Brass is copper and zinc at roughly 66% copper to 34% zinc.
I got to wondering after reading Tim's post, just what is brass ?? so I spent some Google Time looking into it. Interesting stuff. Can also contain small amounts of lead, iron, silicon or manganese. Apparently manganese improves corrosion resistance.
I don't know if the manufactures would make their brass formulas public or keep it proprietary but it would be nice to have another thing to argue about;
ABC brass is clearly not as good as XYZ brass because the copper / zinc ratio is not as good and the added alloys combine to summon evil spirts inside the chamber.
![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
--------------------
And lo, the Light of the Trump shown upon the Darkness and the Darkness could not comprehend it.
Posts: 8231 | From: Under a wandering star | Registered: Apr 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Southern Minneesota Know it all
Member # 794
|
posted November 04, 2024 02:56 PM
SAAM spec's has a set of numbers the gunsmith or gun manufacture follows, its not an exact number from one chamber job to the next and keep in mind a reamer is used for many chambers before tossed out or sharpened. someone may get a barrel that was chambered at tail end of the reamers life spam but yet the reamer still cut the chamber to SAAM spec.s it may work nice it may not, could even end up little egg shaped. LOL
You fire a cartridge the brass flows forward even in a ackley cartridge, its a given. Thing with some acklies is the brass flow may stop short and build up on the shoulder or case neck and yet not make case grow longer in lenth thus less trimming if any. yes the donut in web area is where the brass tends to get weaker the more you fire the case, not going to get around it either. If sizing die not set right, it also can cause the stretching in webb area even on a ackley case or a chamber cut little deeper or too much bolt face removed can cause the seperation.
Harder brass will also get work harden sooner than the softer brass, yeah it made from all kinds of stuff and meets safety spec.s but behaves little different. The softer Lapua brass will flow back sooner into bolt face on the higher end of reloads. Win.brass was good for that in 22-250. with softer brass the primer don't always tell you soon enough if you close to or over max just a tad but brass flow on soft case will tell you. soft brass will flow back into the ejector plunger hole and leave nice mark on Rem. actions.
--------------------
What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
Posts: 5614 | From: S.D. | Registered: Jan 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
NVWalt
Does not claim to be overly bright!
Member # 375
|
posted November 05, 2024 12:16 PM
I agree about the primers showing first signs of pressure. All brass can get reloaded one too many times. A case in point is the late wife's 30-30 TC The best accuracy we got out of it made us full length resize it every loading and the ring around the web was the go to indicator that you need to relegate that one to the maybe bin. I also have an XP-100 chambered in 7x40 Baker Special. The thing with that is it has a tightneck chamber and you don't resize the brass at all after you made it and fire formed it.The brass lasts forever, or so it seams. Just wanted to bs about brass and reloading a bit with you all.
Now show me some accurate cast boolits . My little 221 Fireball likes a decent gas checked hardcast out of that little 10 inch TC.
--------------------
A wise woman once said "Fuck this shit!". And lived happily forever after.
Posts: 716 | From: Tellico Plains, TN | Registered: Aug 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Southern Minneesota Know it all
Member # 794
|
posted November 05, 2024 02:10 PM
never shot lead bullets out of center fire. would grab a 22 l.r. for that or my inline muzzle loader..
--------------------
What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
Posts: 5614 | From: S.D. | Registered: Jan 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
|
posted November 05, 2024 02:52 PM
Look. The brass flow in relation to multiple reloadings, resulting in the so called "donut" occurs at the junction of the SHOULDER to THE CASE NECK, where the bullet is inserted in the neck of the case.
Personally, I've never seen it, but IF it occurs after multiple reloadings, it is supposed to cause excessive pressures due to an abnormally tight grip on the base of the bullet.
However, and since I use an arbor press and Wilson dies, if there would be a resistance during the seating of the bullet, at the end of the seating stroke, that's where you would feel increased pressure or resistance.
Now, if you do detect unusually difficult seating resistance, you can inspect those cases for evidence of the donut, or figure you have exceeded the case life and it's time to throw those cases and start fireforming some new brass, which is a chore in it self and you should probably scope the bore to see how much accuracy you have remaining in your barrel.
Actually, depending on how many reloads you have attained, A simple check on your 5 shot accuracy should be able to tell you if the barrel is still accurate enough for your own personal needs.
Depending on how hot you load your cases, good accuracy could degrade within 1,000 to 5,000 rounds fired. Anal types and Marine Corps shooters log every round fired. I used to keep track by saving the bullet boxes, which are usually 100 per box and some I buy are in 250 round boxes. If you have the shelf space, that's easy to do. The problem is if you use the same bullet in several rifles, but personally, I've never had that problem. But, it's all subjective. If accuracy goes from 3/8" groups to 3/4" groups, well then you need to determine exactly what your personal standards are.
Now, I have a Ruger M77 chambered in 220 Swift. At one time, I shot nothing but 52 and 53grain match bullets in that rifle. It still has the factory barrel on it and my current load is with the Sierra 63gr. Semi pointed, seated way out where the lands are in better shape. It's not as accurate as it once was, but it is serviceable, and it works quite well as a "loaner". Beggars can't be choosers, and they wouldn't know the difference anyway.
So, back to metallurgy. Thanks to ko ko for the input, but I was not intending to be precise in describing the various formulations of various manufacturers brass cartridge cases. However, I still think Norma, which I used to use for my 220 Swift, just looking at WW brass next to Norma brass, and I have some of both, the Norma brass has a distinctly more reddish tint to it and I think if the truth were known; their formulation DOES contain maybe trace amounts of copper.
Additionally, I have done a little bit of sand casting and I know for a fact that there is a difference between yellow brass and red brass. I had a source and they had red brass and as I was half way through my project, even though it was just a little cheaper, the contrast was too noticeable. I was casting a Chess Set and obviously, all the pieces had to be the same, so I couldn't save a few bucks by using the red brass for the remainder of the pieces, not yet cast.
The purity of any metal, take gold for instance, requires a lot of work to render it to the purest form. Take what they call "Black Hills Gold" for instance. It contains quite a bit of trace elements of copper and you can easily see it in the finished jewelry. Refining after more refining, and you get that 999.9 purity, whatever the hell they call pure gold?
That's it, folks!
Good hunting. El Bee
edit: lead in centerfire rifles presents a cleaning problem you don't have when firing copper jacketed bullets. Mostly seen in handgun, with hardcast lead preferred and I've never used hard cast lead in my 44Mag. or 357. That's beyond my level, it has merit but I don't think I need to get involved?
[ November 05, 2024, 02:57 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
--------------------
EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32361 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Southern Minneesota Know it all
Member # 794
|
posted November 05, 2024 04:08 PM
Bright ring at base of case is sign of where the brass is moving from. Have a few cases laying around with it and also have one case that separated.
As for the donut, yes it forms in base of neck just short of where the bullet is seated and then starts to move farther out. BR shooters has a loose enough neck that they just seat the bullet up against the donut. Not big deal but if you decide to seat a bullet deeper or change bullets then yes you will have pressure issue. Some cases won't form a donut but depends on who's brass you use but instead you just get thicker necks which can cause pressure problem as well. you can inside neck ream to get rid of a donut or a thick neck or outside turn a case to cut neck dia. back to where it should be. Or better yet just toss it and start over.
My first 22-250 using nothing but win. brass would get thick necks, so I tried reaming thing then just decided to toss them be done with it.
I have some cases laying around with the donut and also thick necks.
And another issue was thin necks from too many trimmings. The neck would start to crack just at the base and work its way forward, not a pressure issue but just sign the brass been used to often and time to retire it.
I saved the bullet boxes for my 17 Pred., have not counted but I have alot of them. LOL
--------------------
What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
Posts: 5614 | From: S.D. | Registered: Jan 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
|
posted November 05, 2024 07:10 PM
Just to clarify, somewhat. The "Donut" situation is almost always associated with the Ackley 40degree shoulder. Maybe some 30degree? But otherwise, don't worry about it, you will never see it in a 30'06 or a 223Remngton.
Good hunting. El Bee
PS
and another thing. That sharp shoulder "mainly" prevents long necks so with a 22-250Ackley Improved, I never trim lengths, on the neck. I't's because the forward brass flow goes into the shoulder area and not the neck. It's a good thing, more or less a bonus. this is where the donut might appear? So, Proving that the case design is superior, unless you have trouble chambering? The sharp shoulder is not conducive to smooth and slick chambering in a bolt action rifle, Single shots doesn't matter, of course. Feed ramps sometimes need to be worked, if the case does not chamber properly. I have a Ruger that used to have a problem but only feeding from the second and fourth round indicating the right underside needed a little mental work and problem solved. LB
[ November 05, 2024, 08:19 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
--------------------
EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32361 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Southern Minneesota Know it all
Member # 794
|
posted November 06, 2024 08:05 AM
I have one ackley case that separated just before the shoulder. took a cleaning brush and rod get that piece out of chamber.
As for feeding issue with ackly I'm switching over to Mag. fed. I tested a few rounds in my Bargara which is mag. fed and the ackley rounds came out smooth so making the conversion soon on my 22-250 ackley. My ruger in 204 also has same set up with mag. feeding and I like it as well.
--------------------
What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
Posts: 5614 | From: S.D. | Registered: Jan 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
|
posted November 06, 2024 08:54 AM
Well there is always personal preference. While I concede that there are a few advantages to a removable magazine, like simply removing it to render it legally unloaded, in jurisdictions where they judge "loaded" as attached to the weapon, and I hate the term weapon when "firearm" is just as appropriate.
But, what bothers me the most is losing or misplacing the damned clip, which let's face it, a lot of people incorrectly call it a clip instead of magazine.
What bothers me the most is when you have a rifle that is good and a favorite and 40 years old and has not been made in 30 years and you lose the friggin' magazine and hells to pay in finding a replacement! There are even much older rifles out there and it's almost a cottage industry in location magazines for obscure rifles. The thing is, it is an integral part of the rifle, almost as essential as a missing trigger group! You are almost dead in the water, short of clumsily hand feeding one at a time!
End of rant
Good hunting. El Bee
PS, I do not have any rifles that require a magazine, I think, over all, it's a bad idea. But I understand, others have a different opinion. It's a free country. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
--------------------
EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32361 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Southern Minneesota Know it all
Member # 794
|
posted November 06, 2024 12:12 PM
The newer mag. conversions are pretty popular now so finding another mag. not big deal. I think I have 2-3 for each rifle and have a pouch on the stock to hold a extra. I went with just five round Mag's don't need any bigger than that. The 204 holds 8 rounds I think. I think the company is called Magpul or something like that, 308 mag. same as 22-250 and ackley will work in it as well as my 20x47 lapua. The 223 mag. covers all cases in 223 family size. 223,221,17 rem.,204, 222 and 222 mag..
I don't always have a full mag. from one stand to next and if in a bind I can load one round from the top.
Night calling i find it easier to just change a mag. than try to put one cartridge in at a time on old rem. in the dark.
[ November 06, 2024, 12:13 PM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
--------------------
What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
Posts: 5614 | From: S.D. | Registered: Jan 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
|
posted November 07, 2024 02:54 PM
I can share one practice, especially at night. I use a round chambered but the bolt up. Seems a quick, visual and tactile and safe method. Works for me.
Good hunting. El Bee
--------------------
EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32361 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Southern Minneesota Know it all
Member # 794
|
posted November 07, 2024 06:47 PM
Thats one law we never bothered to change here since it made sense to begin with and that's a loaded round in chamber when gun is in vehicle.
Warden pulled up behind me one night while i was sitting in truck with door open loading my gun for coon hunting. He said I couldn't have a loaded gun in vehicle. Told him I needed the dome light to see what I was doing before i went hunting with dog because we have another law that says no use of lights till the coon is treed by a dog. He thought about that and said ok and then checked lic. and left. We did get light law changed years back. LOL
[ November 07, 2024, 07:03 PM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
--------------------
What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
Posts: 5614 | From: S.D. | Registered: Jan 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Southern Minneesota Know it all
Member # 794
|
posted November 07, 2024 07:08 PM
I did stop at gunsmith today and dropped the ackley off to have detachable mag. set up installed and to also have flush quick release inserts for sling installed on side of stock.
--------------------
What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
Posts: 5614 | From: S.D. | Registered: Jan 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
|
posted November 08, 2024 02:02 PM
You know what, Tim? I think you probably reached that enviable status some of us never attain:
YOU HAVE MORE GUNS THAN YOU CAN POSSIBLY EVER USE!
--------------------
EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32361 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Southern Minneesota Know it all
Member # 794
|
posted November 08, 2024 02:44 PM
I don't know Leonard, think others may have more but I do try to use as many as I can and I'm not like Vic. and sell them for another. Its like this if I like and enjoy it it stays if I don't like it then it goes. I been through a lot of them that just didn't make the cut, like the mini 14 and few off brands.
Had some nice shotguns at one time but I don't really have much use for them when I quit duck and pheasant hunting so off they went.
Have to see how coyote season goes but I may use 5-6 different rifles off and on. I need more thermals. LOL
[ November 08, 2024, 02:46 PM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
--------------------
What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
Posts: 5614 | From: S.D. | Registered: Jan 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Kokopelli
SENIOR DISCOUNT & Dispenser of Sage Advice
Member # 633
|
posted November 08, 2024 02:53 PM
No ....... No ........ No !!!!!!
"You have more guns than you can possibly ever use" is a phrase that we should NEVER use. It's the kind of thing that the wacko-left will use against us.
'Well, you don't really NEED more than (pick a number - a small one) rifles and shotguns." May need to institute a Red Flag Alert or something for owning an ARSNEL !!!!
--------------------
And lo, the Light of the Trump shown upon the Darkness and the Darkness could not comprehend it.
Posts: 8231 | From: Under a wandering star | Registered: Apr 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Southern Minneesota Know it all
Member # 794
|
posted November 08, 2024 05:23 PM
Koko I built my house and even dug the basement, they won't find them. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
--------------------
What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
Posts: 5614 | From: S.D. | Registered: Jan 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Kokopelli
SENIOR DISCOUNT & Dispenser of Sage Advice
Member # 633
|
posted November 09, 2024 12:01 AM
I'm pretty sure that the Government that would send a SWAT Team to arrest a guy's squirrel could probably find your secret stash.
What we don't need is more laws and more restrictions.
--------------------
And lo, the Light of the Trump shown upon the Darkness and the Darkness could not comprehend it.
Posts: 8231 | From: Under a wandering star | Registered: Apr 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Southern Minneesota Know it all
Member # 794
|
posted November 09, 2024 08:59 AM
not sure koko, sometimes I even forget where it is.
--------------------
What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
Posts: 5614 | From: S.D. | Registered: Jan 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
|
posted November 11, 2024 06:29 AM
I BELIEVE THAT
PS
I can pick up my HellCat today, only 11 days after purchase because the joint is closed on Sundays.
Oh, and since we have some stupid thing about a "Real" I.D. my driver's License is no good to prove my citizenship. Therefore, I have to submit my Passport for identification purposes. You know what a passport costs these days? I think it's a hundred bucks? Yes, I am on my third passport, good for ten years each. That's another thing we can thank ragheads for! They really are friggin' crazy, you know? And, just why do they hate Jews, anyway? It's not because they keep kicking their ass in everything from soccer to wars. Possibly because they are a whole lot smarter than Arabs and Palestinians? Just give up, they look stupid! Quit before the Israeli's get mad and wipe them all out.
Good hunting. El Bee
[ November 11, 2024, 06:44 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
--------------------
EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32361 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Southern Minneesota Know it all
Member # 794
|
posted November 23, 2024 11:51 PM
Picked up my Ackley today with new Magpul detachable mag. system installed and flush mount sling studs. awesome job and quick turnaround. Gunsmith also has handle on some 20x47 Lapua brass and ordered 100 cases for me. Waiting on weather to settle down and we be out after them.
Also picked up two bottles of coyote urine and spray bottle.
[ November 23, 2024, 11:54 PM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
--------------------
What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
Posts: 5614 | From: S.D. | Registered: Jan 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
Printer-friendly view of this topic
